For that promise you made to yourself, throw it away. Meeting girls isn't simply about getting some. That's a perk. Simply put, you need to develop a better self-esteem and a sense of humor. It's a confidence issue, which people can sense. For the former, you can listen to Scot Mckay's Podcast called "X and Y On The Fly" and "The Chick Whisperer." The message is clear: you need to deserve what you want. He elaborates more on that, however. For the latter, listen to some comics perform, to start off. It fine-tunes your sense of humor. Both helped me, and they may help you. They'll erase that cynicism with humorous, flirty thoughts. That's my opinion in a nutshell.
Why do I feel like I can't get nowhere?
- Thread starter Das
- Start date
rushing dude 123
Master Don Juan
Best thing i can tell u man is keep practicing and learn from ur mistakes. I saw some guys that are pretty good with ladys and have girlfriends and they would go for every girl and say some stupid ass comments and get ignored. Yet once in a while some girls would reply and thats when they get there girls. U know kind of jerk like, but the nice guy would say nothing, which is the same amount of women he would be getting. Now has a don juan u can do the same thing has the jerk would do, but u will actually learn from ur mistakes and will improve ur chances. It will be bad at first, but u will get better just keep practicing.
Best advice i can give u man.
Best advice i can give u man.
Everlast2k
Don Juan
you can man. i am sure you can get tons of babes you just got to believe in yourself and continue trying!
Life can be a real bytch, can't it?
Women are more attracted to certain kinds of dispositions than to others. That's just the way it is. If you've been one way your entire life, it's a bit much to think that you can just negate all that with a couple of attempts at humor and social joviality. If that's all you think it requires, you're way wrong.
Do you really think you can convince someone that you are -- you really, really are -- a fun and great guy by telling them? A popular quote says something like "what [or was it "who"?] you are shouts at me so loudly I can't hear what you're saying!"
Women tend to size up your "social potential" pretty quickly. So quickly that by the time you get around to "telling" them about how great you are, or "dhv-ing", as it's known around here, they've got formed an opinion of you that's desperately difficult to shake. If they size you up as "boring" or of questionable social value, you're pretty much done for, and there's really not much you could say in a brief 2 minute convo that might change any of that.
That's why when, in your example, you were trying to involve the women that were with those guys you were talking about beer with in the conversation they weren't interested. They're not there to talk about beer or to talk about anything really. If they've already decided they're not interested in you, as a man, "involving them in the conversation" will achieve virtually nothing, even if they do engage in it for reasons of politeness. They do wanna meet guys, but the actual topic of conversation really has very little to do with it. Every now and again you can get "lucky" and talk about something she has some interest in discussing, and then the girl seems to "light up" for a bit, but as soon as that topic is exhausted, the convo and her interest in you fizzle and you quickly find yourself out on your azz again.
The reason is, for you, "being fun and social" is something you have to "do", it's not who you "are". I don't mean who you are in some essential way. I mean in the sense of the set of beliefs and values that you hold that allow you to interpret reality around you in a certain way; these, in turn, affect the way you act and speak, and hence the way you are perceived by others.
I'll give you a personal example. I'm generally someone who does make a favorable impression on people (guys and girls both). In the last few months, I went through a mini-crisis (now resolved, I think). During this time, my mindset was so altered from what it normally is that it greatly affected my disposition and behavior. People picked up on this, and very quickly, I found that people -- acquaintances and strangers alike -- were responding to me very differently. I was aware that it was happening, and it wasn't to my liking, but because I felt my other concerns were so pressing, I just let it happen and was unwilling to stop what was going on in my mind that was causing such reactions. (A lot of this is subtle stuff, and unless you have a highly developed self-awareness it can pass right by you.) Now that the crisis is over, and I've dealt with those issues, I'm back to my "normal" mindset, and the way I'm being perceived has likewise changed for the better.
Changing isn't easy, because it requires you to challenge your assumptions about the world, about people, about women. And then to accept that the way you've been seeing up till now is likely "wrong". And then to adopt new ways of seeing things, and allowing those new views to filter right through you to the point they affect the way you speak and act. This is completely different from "trying to be fun and social". If you're not willing to challenge your mindset, all you will ever do is "try".
This can be quite difficult to understand until you've experienced it. I'm talking about questioning things that you've never even thought of questioning; things that you've always taken for granted as rock solid facts.
I'm sorry if all this sounds like a great deal of work. But that's just the way it is. Hardly anyone is "socially optimal" naturally, without having to ever work at it at all (though I'm sure there are some out there who would qualify). But I'd say that most people tend to within a certain range that could be considered "not too far off"; meaning they do have to work at it some, and make some changes, but that it's not a mammoth task. For some people, though, it is a mammoth undertaking. Just think of some completely socially inept loser you knew in high school; the guy who was the butt of every joke and who no one even minimally respected. Clearly a guy like that has his work cut out for him if he intends to become someone we could consider "socially competent". That's the way life is: for some people, a real struggle.
zerocelcius
Master Don Juan
Das said:
You went out and tried so you’re not worthless or a looser.
Try this in the field:
*this isn't for everyone especially guys with an established game*
(This part isn't to PU; it is to break through your barrier)
1. Go out and open sets of girls and "talk POP"! What I mean is this: Start a convo about some pop culture crap. Brittney Spears is hot right now. Or a new Album out. When a girl or the whole set shows interest let her/them vent on the topic. Whatever side she/they take = take it too. Mirror her opinions, but step it up one notch on her enthusiasm. When she gets excited = you get excited. After a moment of this step it up 2 notches. If she steps up the enthusiasm than step it up even more. She will notice and think you are making fun of her. Once she gets to this point calm down and comment how you enjoy her enthusiasm (Kind of make a big deal out of how enthusiastic she is.) Ask her what else she is so passionate about.
By doing this you will be controlling the frame, getting her excited, and pivoting off of that excitement into a comfort building rapport. Once she opens up about her passions in life mirror her the whole time. Use her trance words.
During this convo every time she shows real passion, Kino her and smile or comment: "there's that passion".
At the peak of this convo (when it is flowing and lots of excitement) pick a topic, she just said she was into, and pivot off of it. If she loves dancing; interrupt the convo, act like you just got struck by lightning and say: "YOU KNOW WHAT"? "I have an amazing idea." "BLAH BLAH has dance lessons on Thursdays... let’s do it."
Get her # and tell her you will see her Thursday.
The reason I said this isn't for everyone is almost obvious, but really there are many reasons.
1. Most likely you won't get them this far into the convo unless somebody takes the bait right off the bat.
2. You really have to be good at mirroring without looking like your mirroring.
3. If you got this far there are many other things you could/should do.
However; I think this will get you into a few sets that will allow you to be interesting, and also learn what girls find interesting. I am very sure they care less about beer distributors or who has the best micro brew.
Try it out and don't be afraid to act an a$$. Make it as fun and exciting as possible and you should learn a lot from it.
When you are weight lifting you get to a plateau and you have to change up your routine to break out of it (Just like seduction)!
That's not bad advice, zero. You're probably already a fun sort of guy anyway, though. I get the impression that this Das guy is somewhat different.
I think he's the type who believes that the only reason he's not with a girl is because no girl -- for whatever reason, even just "bad luck" -- has taken the time to find out what a "great guy" he "really is", and if only some girl did, then sparks would be flying -- as if that's how hookups happen.
Maybe some of the "be a man" kind of advice would be better. People tend to get a bit too philosophical about that stuff, imo, but anything that shakes him up and gets him to realize there's a different (and better) way to see (and experience) the world would probably help.
I think he's the type who believes that the only reason he's not with a girl is because no girl -- for whatever reason, even just "bad luck" -- has taken the time to find out what a "great guy" he "really is", and if only some girl did, then sparks would be flying -- as if that's how hookups happen.
Maybe some of the "be a man" kind of advice would be better. People tend to get a bit too philosophical about that stuff, imo, but anything that shakes him up and gets him to realize there's a different (and better) way to see (and experience) the world would probably help.
zerocelcius
Master Don Juan
He does seem to be different and that was my point. He has to break his mold.danielzxc said:
In the mist of a great storm the Mighty Oak will snap and break to it’s will, yet the Flexible Willow will move and give to the storm's motion. In the end it is the Willow that survives and remains.
He has to step out of his zone and get comfortable in another zone, to than again... step out of that zone and move on.
In the world of seduction you have to be fluid like the willow or get snapped in half like the Oak.
** I was trying to be philosophical… **
I really appriciate the responses, guys. I really do. Sometimes I'm so worked up that what I post isn't even close to what I intended to post, but it did get me a step or two closer to solving the problem.
I'm really thinking about what you guys wrote and reflecting a little bit on how I am. I am frustrated all of the time because of how I've always approched life. I've always seen problems to be fixed and the soulutions to fix them, but when it came to women I'd look at the situation and go, "I have no woman. I want a woman. What do women like?" and I'd list every shortcoming I thought I had and I'd work on them. Same as with every other type of problem I ever had. But when I looked in myself I saw nothing wrong. How could I see anything wrong? I do like myself, afterall. These traits that I'm seeing now as holding me back with women are the very same traits that have allowed me to do well in other areas of my life, its no wonder I never thought of my personality as the problem. I'd get frustrated because since I was 14 I am/was trying to be superman and I'm no closer to where I want to be than when I started. I'd look at myself and go "theres nothing wrong with me, but I got no girl, so somethings wrong, but I cant see whats wrong...." I'd beat myself up for days on end going through this process.
So I am a boring guy. I'm trying to remember the last time I was really excited about anything, and I'm not remembering a thing.
I've got to be careful, because I've already caught myself a couple of times slipping back into "what do I do to be fun?" type mindset.
But, and this is a huge but, I have no idea what it is like to be the super awesome guy. I am, like you said, a cynic. ( I had to look it up, I didn't know what it ment.) It's like looking into a void for me right now. Fun Das is out there somewhere but I simply have no idea where he is.
You are right this will be hard for me, Thank God I'm stubborn, but I really can't see how I'm going to go about this.
Im trying to picture having a conversation about "POP" and I just don't see hoe that's going to go over well. I'm not imaginative like that.
I'm really thinking about what you guys wrote and reflecting a little bit on how I am. I am frustrated all of the time because of how I've always approched life. I've always seen problems to be fixed and the soulutions to fix them, but when it came to women I'd look at the situation and go, "I have no woman. I want a woman. What do women like?" and I'd list every shortcoming I thought I had and I'd work on them. Same as with every other type of problem I ever had. But when I looked in myself I saw nothing wrong. How could I see anything wrong? I do like myself, afterall. These traits that I'm seeing now as holding me back with women are the very same traits that have allowed me to do well in other areas of my life, its no wonder I never thought of my personality as the problem. I'd get frustrated because since I was 14 I am/was trying to be superman and I'm no closer to where I want to be than when I started. I'd look at myself and go "theres nothing wrong with me, but I got no girl, so somethings wrong, but I cant see whats wrong...." I'd beat myself up for days on end going through this process.
So I am a boring guy. I'm trying to remember the last time I was really excited about anything, and I'm not remembering a thing.
I've got to be careful, because I've already caught myself a couple of times slipping back into "what do I do to be fun?" type mindset.
But, and this is a huge but, I have no idea what it is like to be the super awesome guy. I am, like you said, a cynic. ( I had to look it up, I didn't know what it ment.) It's like looking into a void for me right now. Fun Das is out there somewhere but I simply have no idea where he is.
You are right this will be hard for me, Thank God I'm stubborn, but I really can't see how I'm going to go about this.
Im trying to picture having a conversation about "POP" and I just don't see hoe that's going to go over well. I'm not imaginative like that.
zerocelcius
Master Don Juan
Just remember that girls love to talk. They are like wined up toys: You get them wound up and let them go. You really only have to copy them. My advice isn't "like I said" to PU by the book it is just to get you in sets to learn what girls find interesting and fun. Plus it will get you comfortable with a different range of social dynamics. It will be just like anything else in life that you do for the first time. Scary at first but shortly after you will feel the rush of excitement and give into joy. Than in time it will lose it’s interest and that is the time to reflect, adapt, and overcome/move on.Das said:
Good Luck and Have Fun!!
Das said:
You probably have a lot more going for you than you think. You have said repeatedly you are boring. This is a dead give away in my opinion about what is bothering you about yourself. Let's just forget women for now.
Passion about anything generally has to be found. I have a passion for photography that I didn't know about years ago. Try different subjects or pursuits in life and something will grab you.
Stop telling yourself you are boring. Stop putting yourself down. This is really the issue. This can only be bad to your appearance and self confidence. It's a self esteem problem. Read some articles about it on the web or try some books in the library.
You'll see that what is lowering your self esteem is really irrational perceptions. You assume that since a woman frowns at you that this means that she doesn't like you. It may be, but it might not be. You cannot read minds.
No one can tell you what to do to get interested in something or what to even start with. What do you do in your spare time that you are not paid to do? Computers, football, chess, what? These are worthy pursuits you can build on. If nothing occurs then do you just sleep? What do you do in your waking hours? Even a passion for walking can be something that you can use.
You might think what you do is boring. You are projecting other people's perceptions (or what you think they are) into what you do for fun. Don't do that. You might be surprised that many people share your passion for hockey, or motorsports, or anything. I think you already know what you like. Just be the best you can be at it. When you get a string or pattern of success, then this will boost your confidence and feeling of self worth.
If you have these built up, then you are ready to share with a woman. If you have nothing to share then work on that. I guarantee you that many guys are truly stupid jerks and are nothing special. You're discounting yourself way too much.
I suggest you go out where other men are sarging and just observe. Listen to them talk to women convertly. You'll hear all their mistakes and you'll laugh when you realize that most are AFC. I've yet to hear the perfect PUA in action. All have been lame. You'll realize that you can do it. Just keep reading the materials on this site. Play out some scenarios of meeting women in your head.
Try a little at a time. Do eye contact only for a week. Practice just doing that - don't speak to anyone. You'll find there is a way to do it that says more than words. Sometimes just a look communicates more than the spoken word which can be misinterpreted.
The largest issue is that women are different. They see things in emotional terms. Your emotional state is obvious to them but maybe invisible to you. Women like confidence and an air of sensuality, bravery, and a general toughness. If you think of yourself as a wimp then you really need to get away from those qualities.
You've never had any experience with girls, have you? These are definitely the hardest cases, because you don't have any reference points of what "success" feels or looks like. I can't back this up with hard figures, but in my opinion, guys like this usually lose all hope and give up looking, but because there are (maybe) just as many desperate and hopeless females out there as males, circumstances eventually throw such people together and a relationship begins. Obviously the fat and the ugly feature prominently in those ranks. You also find a lot of "used up" hors trying to redeem themselves, who can be momentarily touched by the sweetness of innocent, inexperienced men getting their first taste of regular (and raunchy) sex, but most of them I bet eventually lose interest and revert to old habits, leaving the guy bitter and many tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars poorer. Life-long alcoholics, drug addicts, ex-cons, divorcees, and people who in various other ways have fkked up their lives make up the rest.
Not a pretty picture, is it? Yet that's those are the consequences of not getting your life romantically/sexually sorted out in due course.
You seem willing to be self-critical, so there's hope for you yet!
I suppose you might have thought being "super awesome" is a requirement given the emphasis that I put on how off-putting being "boring" is. Boring is definitely repulsive, but you don't really need to be a font of non-stop fun and laughter to get chicks. If you start observing the male-female interactions taking place around you, especially at night spots, you'll notice some guys that have all the women laughing riotously; that doesn't necessarily mean those women are going home with those guys. So don't get discouraged if you can't see yourself ever being the laugh-a-minute type.
"Interesting" to chicks means something rather different that what it means to guys. When you meet another guy, you wanna talk to him first, and depending on how the conversation goes you'll then judge him as "interesting" or "cool" (or boring, or stupid or whatever). Now, chicks do that, too, of course, but they also judge by a set of other criteria -- a set of other criteria that, when it comes to making judgements of a guy's romantic/sexual potential, are quite different. And such judgements are made much earlier on in the interaction -- often before you've even said anything -- than the judgements a guy makes about another guy. And once such opinions of you are formed, it's extremely difficult to change them. Much of the discussion on these pages revolves (or used to, anyway, back in the earlier years) around the qualities you need to display to be judged romantically/sexually desirable, and those aspects of yourself that you need to hide or diminish in order to avoid getting judged as non-sexual material. In short, it's what all that "be a man" talk is about. Being "interesting", in the guy sense of the word, is a part of it, but it's not really necessarily a major part of it, at least not in the early stages.
Guys that have had multiple experiences with girls understand this much easier. That's because they can look back on some of those encounters and admit or realize that, hmm, there was hardly much spoken between them at all, and yet there seemed to be some "connection" that quickly led to romance/sex. So they can quickly grasp what other guys mean when they advise that it's not always "what you say" that makes a difference. If you've never experienced this, then it can feeling people are yanking your chain, because it's so different to the process that guys use to judge other guys.
Not a pretty picture, is it? Yet that's those are the consequences of not getting your life romantically/sexually sorted out in due course.
You seem willing to be self-critical, so there's hope for you yet!
Being a the "super awesome guy" is good, no doubt about it, but it's not really necessary. The vast majority of guys out there who get girls are by no means super awesome at all, not by a long shot.
I suppose you might have thought being "super awesome" is a requirement given the emphasis that I put on how off-putting being "boring" is. Boring is definitely repulsive, but you don't really need to be a font of non-stop fun and laughter to get chicks. If you start observing the male-female interactions taking place around you, especially at night spots, you'll notice some guys that have all the women laughing riotously; that doesn't necessarily mean those women are going home with those guys. So don't get discouraged if you can't see yourself ever being the laugh-a-minute type.
"Interesting" to chicks means something rather different that what it means to guys. When you meet another guy, you wanna talk to him first, and depending on how the conversation goes you'll then judge him as "interesting" or "cool" (or boring, or stupid or whatever). Now, chicks do that, too, of course, but they also judge by a set of other criteria -- a set of other criteria that, when it comes to making judgements of a guy's romantic/sexual potential, are quite different. And such judgements are made much earlier on in the interaction -- often before you've even said anything -- than the judgements a guy makes about another guy. And once such opinions of you are formed, it's extremely difficult to change them. Much of the discussion on these pages revolves (or used to, anyway, back in the earlier years) around the qualities you need to display to be judged romantically/sexually desirable, and those aspects of yourself that you need to hide or diminish in order to avoid getting judged as non-sexual material. In short, it's what all that "be a man" talk is about. Being "interesting", in the guy sense of the word, is a part of it, but it's not really necessarily a major part of it, at least not in the early stages.
Guys that have had multiple experiences with girls understand this much easier. That's because they can look back on some of those encounters and admit or realize that, hmm, there was hardly much spoken between them at all, and yet there seemed to be some "connection" that quickly led to romance/sex. So they can quickly grasp what other guys mean when they advise that it's not always "what you say" that makes a difference. If you've never experienced this, then it can feeling people are yanking your chain, because it's so different to the process that guys use to judge other guys.
That was probably the most important part of Saucy Boy's last post here. And it's one of the simplest first steps to improving your chances with women: just realize and accept that in many fundamental ways men and women are extremely different. So it's important to understand what "satisfying their emotional needs" means on their terms. Yeah, being "interesting" or "fun", in a guy sense of it, is important, but there's also a lot more to it than just that.
I wasn't trying to discount what you were saying , Zero, I was just trying to take account of my weaknesses. Actually now that I think about it, I see how those women I tried to drag into a conversation felt, seeing as how I just don't care about pop culture all that much.
But nobody said I was going to have it easy, right?
Saucyboy--
OK.
This is going to sound real schitzo...I know its irrational. That little voice in the back of my head that tells me I suck, am boring, to just give up,(or whatever) fights with me hard and dirty.
I used to wrestle, and I truly have a passion for it, BUT I really tore up my knee after my last match (slipped on the floor in the locker room of all things). So I can't wrestle anymore, and I'm looking for something similar where no one is going to deliberatly take a shot on my knee if I wear a brace on it. Otherwise I usually walk around or ride around just seeing what there is to see. And I've been reading an awful lot about Rome lately for some reason
I have trouble getting sleep
1. Wishing I had more time to sleep 2. It's not a passion, really. I do it when the urge to go hits me, or when I can't sleep.
ok so far.
Heheh...I know the types you are talking about.
I'll get to this in a minute
Danielzxc--
No. Virgin. Never had a gf. Never been kissed, hugged. Never been told I was cute or anything like that. And it's not like I don't try either.
No. It's not[/QUOTE]
It may be part of the problem.
I meant those really fun social types of guys who can get everyones attention in a room. I am not one of those guys. I actually kind of hate those guys.
But they seem to have an easier time "getting their foot in the door." I've been pushed out of conversations by this type of guy before, too.
Could you break down what the desireable qualities are so I can work at having a shot with these snap judgements I apparently fail at?
Right. I have no good expierences with women, and most of the advice I've gotten from friend and family has been along the lines of "Just keep trying you'll meet someone." No matter what I tell them they never seem to get that I do meet women I just can't seem to get them attracted. Especially my parents. They never really listen.
iqqi
Master Don Juan
As a woman, I can tell you that if some guy came up to me and said my shirt was cool and then touched me, I'd be p!ssed too. That's creepy. I don't know you like that, homie! You can't just go up touching on girls, man, you have to have some rapport first. Most of the stuff I've read about kino is creepy. Women don't like strange me touching them.Das said:
Before I go on, I will say that going to the fest was good, and the talks with the other men were good too, and you seem like an alright guy. What is your relationship like with men? Any friends? Or are you a lone wolf?
iqqi
Master Don Juan
Do you LOOK creepy? cmon, post a pic. Its all the rage these days. I'll tell you if you look creepy or not, and all the guys will tell you if you look like a chump. We love to judge here. ;-)
I'll tell you if you look creepy or not, and all the guys will tell you if you look like a chump. We love to judge here. ;-)