When to do shoulders?
- Thread starter C00L
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Warboss Alex
Master Don Juan
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I think you should do a 3day split.
Either chest/triceps/shoulders, back/biceps and legs/abs or chest/triceps, back/biceps, legs/shoulders.
They really don't need a day on their own.
Either chest/triceps/shoulders, back/biceps and legs/abs or chest/triceps, back/biceps, legs/shoulders.
They really don't need a day on their own.
I appreciate the input but a 3 day split is definetly out of the question.
I need a day to dedicate to arms.
Today i did back which was...
deadlift 3 work set
weighted chin/pullup (i switch between the two, 3 sets
t bar rows 3 sets
bb shrugs 4 sets
After that i have no strength or energy left to do any other body part.
I think i might be able to do shoulders on chest day tho since i do all DB work on my chest, so its not nearly as exhausting as my back day.
So my split would look like this...
Mon - chest/shoulder
Tues - back/abs
wed - off
Thurs - legs
fri - arms.
I think that looks good.
I need a day to dedicate to arms.
Today i did back which was...
deadlift 3 work set
weighted chin/pullup (i switch between the two, 3 sets
t bar rows 3 sets
bb shrugs 4 sets
After that i have no strength or energy left to do any other body part.
I think i might be able to do shoulders on chest day tho since i do all DB work on my chest, so its not nearly as exhausting as my back day.
So my split would look like this...
Mon - chest/shoulder
Tues - back/abs
wed - off
Thurs - legs
fri - arms.
I think that looks good.
Warboss Alex
Master Don Juan
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I don't think it looks good.
Your back workout is far too much. Deadlifts AND pullups AND tbar rows? The fact that you could do anything after deadlifts means you're not going balls-out on them (as you should).
(Incidentally, if you think you need to do shrugs after deadlifts and rows for trap development then think again.)
Dedicating a day to arms is a bbing.com thing, whereas truth is, if you hit back and legs (and chest) sufficiently, you shouldn't need to train arms at all (this is rarely the case in practice because people hardly ever train either of these major muscle groups anywhere near as hard as they should - see above re your back workout).
Unless you're an advanced bodybuilder then your split is unncessarily complex, and you'd do better off with a basic 2 or 3 day split concentrated around the three big lifts and minimal arm work.
Your back workout is far too much. Deadlifts AND pullups AND tbar rows? The fact that you could do anything after deadlifts means you're not going balls-out on them (as you should).
(Incidentally, if you think you need to do shrugs after deadlifts and rows for trap development then think again.)
Dedicating a day to arms is a bbing.com thing, whereas truth is, if you hit back and legs (and chest) sufficiently, you shouldn't need to train arms at all (this is rarely the case in practice because people hardly ever train either of these major muscle groups anywhere near as hard as they should - see above re your back workout).
Unless you're an advanced bodybuilder then your split is unncessarily complex, and you'd do better off with a basic 2 or 3 day split concentrated around the three big lifts and minimal arm work.
i disagree. my most developed bodypart is my triceps. what to know why? weighted dips.
I wouldnt have as developed triceps just from doing incline db/flat db/db flys.
Whats wrong with deads/pullups/t bar rows? I do go balls to the wall on my deadlifts but it doesnt stop me from doing 3 sets of 8 pullups or 3 sets of heavy t bar rows.
Plus you dont get nearly enuff trap stimulation from JUST doing deads. I mean sure, u shrug ur shoulders at the top of the lift, but unless your holding them for 5-6 seconds your not going to get maximum stimulation for those muscle fibers.
So thats why i hit them afterwards with bb shrugs where i can concentrate on that lift.
Also i think your lifting philosophy that disregards complete bodyparts is ridiculous.
minimal arm work? gimme a break man. your not going to get sufficient development in your arms just by using them as secondary muscles in your big compound lifts.
I wouldnt have as developed triceps just from doing incline db/flat db/db flys.
Whats wrong with deads/pullups/t bar rows? I do go balls to the wall on my deadlifts but it doesnt stop me from doing 3 sets of 8 pullups or 3 sets of heavy t bar rows.
Plus you dont get nearly enuff trap stimulation from JUST doing deads. I mean sure, u shrug ur shoulders at the top of the lift, but unless your holding them for 5-6 seconds your not going to get maximum stimulation for those muscle fibers.
So thats why i hit them afterwards with bb shrugs where i can concentrate on that lift.
Also i think your lifting philosophy that disregards complete bodyparts is ridiculous.
minimal arm work? gimme a break man. your not going to get sufficient development in your arms just by using them as secondary muscles in your big compound lifts.
MetalFortress
Master Don Juan
I like how the dude who wants a whole day for arms acts like he knows it all.
Kid, listen. Do biceps the same day that you do rows and pullups. Do triceps the same day that you do bench and shoulders. You don't need a seperate day just for biceps and triceps.
Kid, listen. Do biceps the same day that you do rows and pullups. Do triceps the same day that you do bench and shoulders. You don't need a seperate day just for biceps and triceps.
Listen son, you dont know anything about me so dont make some clown ass assumptions.
I have bodybuilding knowledge but i dont know everything, thats why i created this thread. If i knew everything it wouldnt be here, sonny.
I go by what i experience. And in my experience ive noticed more significant gains giving a day to arms, so go read and gain some knowledge and get off of warboss's d1ck. different training methods and splits can be just as effective if not more then your coveted 3 day end all be all split.
vanwilder
Senior Don Juan
**** that **** i have my own day for arms too, you do what works nothing else. look at you with your head up your ass thinking you know it all as well.
maybe he has tried doing arms with the selected bodyparts. form myself, i hate it and do not get a good arm workout therefore i put it on my own day. im not saying this is the right and only way to do it but rather the way i do it.
vanwilder
Senior Don Juan
bleh i didnt read your post, it was like doing the same thing 2x in a row, my bad. i shoulders on your back day so it wont affect any of your other exercises if you want to stick it in your routine. or you can do it before your arm workout which works decient, dont do it after arms though, then you wont have as strong of a shoulder workout.
MetalFortress
Master Don Juan
Says the guy who asks a question and then argues with all the answers. Warboss knows what he's talking about, and I guarantee you that if you ask anyone else who really knows their stuff here and is not a 170-lb overanalyzer, they will say the same thing.
Putting triceps after chest and shoulders allows the best weight progression. If you can't progress, you aren't doing it right. Progress isn't measured by how much pump you get or how much you isolate the muscle.
Bear with me here. I'm posting under the pretense that we're all intelligent members. If that's too much, ask me to run through it again and I will be happy to.
I'm not sure if you're being infantile in a misguided attempt to maintain some self-respect, or if you're genuinely ignorant.
In some specialised circles, strength does not equal muscle mass. However, for 99% of strength trainers - and yes this includes you from what your post says - strength equals mass. Strength equals mass and the way to improve strength is weight progression.
Try recognising that asking for people's opinions is akin to requesting a different point of view, and then have the wisdom and maturity to consider the merits of those different points of view, instead of belittling those who've attempted to help you by donating their time.
Or you could just go on benching your 100lbs barbell for months on end without changing the weight, and then surprise us all with the massive chest you've developed, given of course that weight progression is not what equals muscle mass.
MetalFortress
Master Don Juan
Uh, yes it does. If you squat 580 for 20 reps, you will be massive in the legs and all throughout your body. If you bench 350 for 25 reps, you will have giant triceps, chest and shoulders. If you barbell curl 200 pounds for 18 reps, you will have gargantuan biceps. If you deadlift 600 for 15 reps, you will have a gigantic back and traps (and pretty much everything else). If you can do 12 chinups straight with 4 plates (180 pounds) hanging off of you, you will have inhumanly wide lats (and big biceps too). If you stiff-leg deadlift 400 pounds for 12 reps, you will have atlas stones for hamstrings. If you can military-press 380 pounds for 15 reps, you will have massive shoulders.
The key to being the biggest that you can be, is being the strongest for reps that you can be. Marius, Dorian, Ronnie, Arnold, all of the hugest of the huge guys know this. Everyone from Ken Leistner and Mike Mentzer to Doggcrapp and Inhuman to Pavel Tsatsouline and Dr. Squat says and knows that you need to lift HEAVY to be the biggest you can be.
i used to do an arm day... no luck
switched to low volume, lots of luck.
Started actually doing things heavy and balls to the wall (deads + squats) and i've had more luck than ever, bigtime growth in my arms and traps.
weighted dips??? compound exercise. Not done on a "arms day." Done on a chest/tri day... uses both muscles.
switched to low volume, lots of luck.
Started actually doing things heavy and balls to the wall (deads + squats) and i've had more luck than ever, bigtime growth in my arms and traps.
weighted dips??? compound exercise. Not done on a "arms day." Done on a chest/tri day... uses both muscles.
Warboss Alex
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C00l,
You ask for advice then rubbish what everyone says? If you're advanced enough to know what works for you then why the hell ask? You've had several reasonable replies and haven't given any of them credit. If you don't like what we're saying don't ask us for our opinio.
Okay, I'll answer anyway. Re dips I never said they were a bad exercise, I just mistook them for chest dips (which I prefer to tricep dips but that's just me). Dips are the upper body squat, go to town on them.
Second, you say you go balls-out on deadlifts and then that your traps don't get enough stimulation? That means no way in hell you're going balls-out. I do DC-style deadlifts, that's one set of 6-8 and one of 3-4 with a heavier weight and it destroys me. I feel like throwing up after that second set. And my traps feel like someone's trying to pull them out of my neck with forceps the next day.
Deadlifts are even more taxing on the CNS than squats are, and you say you can do pullups afterwards? You're obviously not using enough weight on the deads.
To say that getting strong doesn't mean getting bigger is, I'm afraid to say, absolutely absurd. Even super heavy bodybuilders have to throw some serious slag iron about, regardless of genetics. D'you really think the rest of us mortals are going to make it with 100lb benches and 120lb squats?
Put two genetic twins on two desert islands. Give one of them 125lbs of weights and the other one unlimited weights. Get the first one to superset, giant set, drop set, whatever with the 125lbs he has, and the other one do straight sets increasing the weight each time. In a year's time, who is going to be bigger?
Volume is finite, intensity is finite, weights are infinite. (DC)
Weight progression is the ONLY thing that's gonna make your body keep growing.
But you've said that you can do other stuff after deads.. that's proof enough that you don't believe in weight progression for mass, so really there's no point changing your mind.
You ask for advice then rubbish what everyone says? If you're advanced enough to know what works for you then why the hell ask? You've had several reasonable replies and haven't given any of them credit. If you don't like what we're saying don't ask us for our opinio.
Okay, I'll answer anyway. Re dips I never said they were a bad exercise, I just mistook them for chest dips (which I prefer to tricep dips but that's just me). Dips are the upper body squat, go to town on them.
Second, you say you go balls-out on deadlifts and then that your traps don't get enough stimulation? That means no way in hell you're going balls-out. I do DC-style deadlifts, that's one set of 6-8 and one of 3-4 with a heavier weight and it destroys me. I feel like throwing up after that second set. And my traps feel like someone's trying to pull them out of my neck with forceps the next day.
Deadlifts are even more taxing on the CNS than squats are, and you say you can do pullups afterwards? You're obviously not using enough weight on the deads.
To say that getting strong doesn't mean getting bigger is, I'm afraid to say, absolutely absurd. Even super heavy bodybuilders have to throw some serious slag iron about, regardless of genetics. D'you really think the rest of us mortals are going to make it with 100lb benches and 120lb squats?
Put two genetic twins on two desert islands. Give one of them 125lbs of weights and the other one unlimited weights. Get the first one to superset, giant set, drop set, whatever with the 125lbs he has, and the other one do straight sets increasing the weight each time. In a year's time, who is going to be bigger?
Volume is finite, intensity is finite, weights are infinite. (DC)
Weight progression is the ONLY thing that's gonna make your body keep growing.
But you've said that you can do other stuff after deads.. that's proof enough that you don't believe in weight progression for mass, so really there's no point changing your mind.
Warboss Alex
Master Don Juan
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(I love how I skim over posts, reply, come back, read again and reply some more, heh)
I could say a lot about people who want to devote a day to arms .. "beach boy", "bicep brigade", "bbing.com" come to mind.
But that's okay, you think what I'm doing is ridiculous, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion.
You think that a 100lb shrug is going to do more for your traps than the 500lb deadlift beforehand (if you can actually hold 100lbs after that dead you're a better man than me) .. but okay, that's your way of thinking, you're entitled to it.
I just think it's funny really. You obviously know so much about bodybuilding and how to induce growth with weird and wonderful ways which doesn't include constant weight progression .. yet you can't work out how to incorporate shoulders into your split.
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