When on a Date… Sit Beside Her or Sit Across from Her?

[nicksaiz65]

It's a delicate balance.

You're correct that not escalating on the first date will result in no second date. Women today have no patience for anything. They expect "all the butterflies" and instanteous connection. Their standards for connection are getting higher and higher. Dates that were quality enough to earn me 2nd dates in 2003-2007 were resulting in ghostings/flaking 2015-beyond.

If you try to escalate and all attempts at escalation are refused, you won't see her again either.

So you’d say that girls ghosting you if you don’t escalate on a first date, happens because they have high standards for connection?

I always wondered why women did that: ghost you if you don’t make some serious moves on the first date. (Making out doesn’t count as a serious move.)

My personal theory was, that by not making a major move on the first date, you’re subcommunicating lower value and communicating that you don’t get much pvssy. A confident guy who gets lots of pvssy, wouldn’t hesitate to make a move or not make a move on the first date. Therefore you get one chance, and if you blow it the window of opportunity closes forever.

But that’s just a personal theory. I don’t have anything to back that up, at all lol.

 

[jamesfromhouston]

I always sit next to the girl. And I mean always.

Always find a spot that has a couch if possible.

Sit next and define the physical expectations of the interaction from the get go.

Start to touch her from the very beginning and set the expectations immediately.

Also with the right person and ambiance, you can create a lot of tension.

My dates where I sat across the girl has mostly led to a slower escalation; proximity is a great thing.

 

[Steno]

I prefer sitting next to her, makes the vibe more sexual. Its not a big deal sitting across though.

 

[SW15]

So you’d say that girls ghosting you if you don’t escalate on a first date, happens because they have high standards for connection?

I always wondered why women did that: ghost you if you don’t make some serious moves on the first date. (Making out doesn’t count as a serious move.)

Women will ghost if you don't escalate at all due to those high standards for connection. Additionally, doing some escalation tactics are no guarantee of a second date.

I consider going for mouth to mouth kissing a significant enough first date move. Why do you think that going for first date sex is the only move significant enough to be considered a "serious move"?

I'm conflicted about first date sex. I think attempting to get laid on a first date is a power move. However, quality sex has always been more important to me than first date sex. First date sex isn't always the highest quality sex. It's worth waiting a little bit longer to get a better connection for higher quality sex. Women's high standards for connection include higher quality sex. 3 in-person dates + 1 initial in-person approach is likely enough time to get a connection that will lead to higher quality sex that is more likely to result in a sexual relationship of at least a few months or more.

My personal theory was, that by not making a major move on the first date, you’re subcommunicating lower value and communicating that you don’t get much pvssy. A confident guy who gets lots of pvssy, wouldn’t hesitate to make a move or not make a move on the first date. Therefore you get one chance, and if you blow it the window of opportunity closes forever.

This is a solid theory that I believe warrants more discussions. A confident guy who gets a lot of vagina would look to close on the first date in most cases. I think you can communicate confidence without going for sex on a first date. I think there's a need to at least go for mouth to mouth kissing.

 

[DEEZEDBRAH]

“W Algorithms,” I absolutely love it lol.

Sounds like sitting beside her is the best play because you absolutely need to go through the kino escalation steps on the date for it to be effective.

Kill two birds with one stone. Your in range to make a move and esculate. You can just tell her to sit OR let her decide. Personally, I prefer to lead. Let her follow. You can esculate or you can seduce her and get her to engage you. Esculate on you.

Here’s what the plan should be, in my head:
Wherever possible, sit beside her. However, there are some situations where sitting beside her just doesn’t make logical sense.

For example, in a coffee/smoothie shop in my town that has the smaller booths. Sitting beside her in that situation makes absolutely no sense lol, I don’t think there’s even room to make that work.

I've esculated outdoors in rush hour. 0 ****s given. These are the obstacles. Make it msje sense. Control the controllables. Even though it doesn't make sense, "the ask" (don't ask INSTRUCT) follows IF high interest level.

The old notion from the Game by David Deangelo, "ATTRACTION ISN'T A CHOICE. " Attraction isn't logical. It just is. Test compliance. Sit. Does she follow your lead? Instruct her. Is she compliant?

In that case, I suppose the “W Algorithm” would be to sit across from her, making sure you are sexualizing the date as always, of course. Lazer eye contact. You’d have to do more kino once you got to the house later on, as other members suggested. Which is fine.

So our “W Algorithm” is kind of dynamic lol

You understand algorithms.

You have a problem. Build algorithms to solve the problem. I've sat across and I've had her sit beside me. I've had a girl age 19 initiate sitting beside vs across. She grabbed and rubbed my ****. It's all indicative of the game, that being COMPLIANCE.

Have a system you flow through organically. It's so General Outline. Not dogma. It's not cult. It's not a boomer pod. Basic algorithm you run through. Comply or bye.

Remember iron Mike Tyson once said "everyone has a plan until they get hit." Stick to the script. Run game. Freedom from outcome plus intent. Work on natural game. Free association. Flow state.

How?

Spoiler

every set is practice. #nextset

 

[nicksaiz65]

Women will ghost if you don't escalate at all due to those high standards for connection. Additionally, doing some escalation tactics are no guarantee of a second date.

I consider going for mouth to mouth kissing a significant enough first date move. Why do you think that going for first date sex is the only move significant enough to be considered a "serious move"?

I'm conflicted about first date sex. I think attempting to get laid on a first date is a power move. However, quality sex has always been more important to me than first date sex. First date sex isn't always the highest quality sex. It's worth waiting a little bit longer to get a better connection for higher quality sex. Women's high standards for connection include higher quality sex. 3 in-person dates + 1 initial in-person approach is likely enough time to get a connection that will lead to higher quality sex that is more likely to result in a sexual relationship of at least a few months or more.



This is a solid theory that I believe warrants more discussions. A confident guy who gets a lot of vagina would look to close on the first date in most cases. I think you can communicate confidence without going for sex on a first date. I think there's a need to at least go for mouth to mouth kissing.

Right, I wanted to say that if she rejects all of your escalation, then that’s probably a sign of low interest to begin with.

I’m not entirely sure on how I should take that rule either. I’m leaning towards saying that first date sex is a must because I’ve had dates where I just went for a kiss, got the make out, and then never saw the girl again.

I think that flaking scenario is less likely if you can get the girl to invest her body into the interaction. I’ve found that it helps, going for the same night Lay. And in general, my theory is that it would be better for me to push a bit harder than to hold back, yknow? If anything, I’ve had more issues with being a closer so that’s why I’m thinking of using this rule.

Gonna quote a big block of text from Roosh again just cause I love his writing… He says in Game:
“Do not show up for a date unless your intention is for it to end in sex. Although this may be unrealistic if you’re going out with a conservative girl or if you live with your parents, your goal must still be sex so that your subconscious will help you get as close to it as possible. Always go on dates with a condom in your pocket to prepare for this outcome.

As I have pointed out, a girl may quickly lose interest in a man she hasn’t had sex with if she has many other options. The sad truth is that for every date you go on, you must assume that you will never see the girl again. This can be the reality even for dates that go well. You won’t feel good when this happens, but you will feel even worse if you know that you passed on guaranteed sex. We cannot expect a girl to come through simply because she thinks we’re interesting or attractive. This is not enough to ensure future dates with her. Instead, she must invest her body into the interaction. This means you have to push the intimacy as far as she allows.”

I also think that my theory has some ground, though I don’t have anything to prove it. It makes sense that a confident guy who gets lots of vagina would go for the close.

Re-reading through Chapter 7 of “Game” to find that quote, I remembered that Roosh has some good guidelines on sitting next to vs. across from the girl, and on venue selection.

I’m probably just going to use these Roosh guidelines as my funnel/guide/pipeline on dates. A lot of it is very similar to the advice given in this thread. After I survive work today, I’ll post up some more quotes detailing the strategy.

It’s nice to go back and reread this material after spending some more time in the field. I’ll definitely set up some more dates this summer and field test all of this some more.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

Never sit across from her. It makes physical contact and intimacy almost impossible.

Sit at bars next to her, or tables beside her.

Protip: every date I've had sitting at a bar led to a first night lay.

 

[nicksaiz65]

Never sit across from her. It makes physical contact and intimacy almost impossible.

Sit at bars next to her, or tables beside her.

Protip: every date I've had sitting at a bar led to a first night lay.

That’s what I’m thinking… that’s basically what Roosh is saying in that section of his book as well.

I’ll default to sitting beside her unless the situation just makes no logistical sense: like at that small coffee shop with the booths that I mentioned earlier.

Good **** on closing so many of your dates btw!

 

[nicksaiz65]

Kill two birds with one stone. Your in range to make a move and esculate. You can just tell her to sit OR let her decide. Personally, I prefer to lead. Let her follow. You can esculate or you can seduce her and get her to engage you. Esculate on you.



I've esculated outdoors in rush hour. 0 ****s given. These are the obstacles. Make it msje sense. Control the controllables. Even though it doesn't make sense, "the ask" (don't ask INSTRUCT) follows IF high interest level.

The old notion from the Game by David Deangelo, "ATTRACTION ISN'T A CHOICE. " Attraction isn't logical. It just is. Test compliance. Sit. Does she follow your lead? Instruct her. Is she compliant?



You understand algorithms.

You have a problem. Build algorithms to solve the problem. I've sat across and I've had her sit beside me. I've had a girl age 19 initiate sitting beside vs across. She grabbed and rubbed my ****. It's all indicative of the game, that being COMPLIANCE.

Have a system you flow through organically. It's so General Outline. Not dogma. It's not cult. It's not a boomer pod. Basic algorithm you run through. Comply or bye.

Remember iron Mike Tyson once said "everyone has a plan until they get hit." Stick to the script. Run game. Freedom from outcome plus intent. Work on natural game. Free association. Flow state.

How?

Spoiler

every set is practice. #nextset

That’s why I think I’m liking sitting beside. Makes it easier to execute your physical escalation. Which when you think about it, is the most important part.

I’m healing up, so I’ll be back in the field soon. Gonna get more dates and field test all of this.

One thing I’m learning is, everyone has their own unique system that works best for them. You have to experiment, and find what works for you. I’m building up that system as we speak. Of course, as you say, you need flexibility as well.

Every Set is Practice == Abundance Mentality

 

[SW15]

Gonna quote a big block of text from Roosh again just cause I love his writing… He says in Game:
“Do not show up for a date unless your intention is for it to end in sex. Although this may be unrealistic if you’re going out with a conservative girl or if you live with your parents, your goal must still be sex so that your subconscious will help you get as close to it as possible. Always go on dates with a condom in your pocket to prepare for this outcome.

As I have pointed out, a girl may quickly lose interest in a man she hasn’t had sex with if she has many other options. The sad truth is that for every date you go on, you must assume that you will never see the girl again. This can be the reality even for dates that go well. You won’t feel good when this happens, but you will feel even worse if you know that you passed on guaranteed sex. We cannot expect a girl to come through simply because she thinks we’re interesting or attractive. This is not enough to ensure future dates with her. Instead, she must invest her body into the interaction. This means you have to push the intimacy as far as she allows.”

I have gone out to a lot of dates with condoms in my pockets to be prepared for the outcome, even if I'm not pushing hard for sex on the date or the logistics are bad. Keeping condoms on you can change your mentality and motivate you to want to use them on the date, which could up your aggressiveness. Even if you don't get laid on the date, being more aggressive in some form of escalation is often good.

Over time, I could have done a better job at assume that I would never see the woman again. I like that idea of going into all dates with that mindset.

 

[Mazer]

Always sit beside her. Enter her personal space. I usually grab seats at the bar, start conversation and put my arm on the back of her stool or my foot/leg on her stool. Then I start Kino.

 

[member160292]

If it's a first date, I prefer to sit across.

Assuming we're vibing well and there is chemistry, slowly up your game with subtle (or not so subtle) eye contact aka eye fvcking and build the sexual tension that way.

As the tension builds, tell (don't ask) her to move to your side, next to you and escalate accordingly as per the advice previously given.

I prefer this as well, first dates might be nervousing for some women. It's not a bad thing, they might appreciate the space. If 2 spots at a corner is available at the bar, that's prime real estate

 

[espanish]

I didn't read the original post or the replies. sit whichever way that doesn't feel weird to you. that's all there is to it.

 

[BDDazza]

I’ve heard differing opinions on this.

I get that sitting beside her lets you be more physical on the date but I hate turning my head to make eye contact the whole date lol. It just feels awkward.

On the other hand, sitting across from her you can’t be as physical so you risk the date being more platonic. But, you can effortlessly make the strong “lazer” eye contact.

I know different people have different results, so I’ll have to find what works for me. But I was curious what the Don Juans on here did.

If possible, I try I sit next to my date, as you said it allows one to touch one another and kiss. You can gauge how interested she is by how much of a gap she leaves and whether she initiates the touching etc. But this only works if the restaurant or bar has comfortable seating that can accommodate two people side-by-side.

Flexibility is important, so don't caught up on seating too much, if the venue only accommodates seating opposite that is fine, use it to your advantage and maintain sensual eye contact.

Rather than concentrating on seating position, focus more on maintaining conversation and turning conversation sexual.

Better yet find a place with couches, where you can turn to her right beside her, like a restaurant or bar with an outside patio and outdoor furniture.

Pro-tip, sometimes if I visit a restaurant for the first time with a date I decline the first table the waitress offers, instead I sift the room for the table with the longest comfortable couch. This makes it easier to suggest sitting side by side.

Mistake. Kino is groping. Don’t break the touch barrier before she does.

Its groping if she doesn't like you, if she likes you its kino. Seriously though, you have to gauge her interest first.

Sit and signal her to sit beside you. Compliance test always.

This is good advice, its something I've done personally. If I am sitting on a nice couch I will playfully invite her to sit next to me; "This sofa is soft, come sit next to me". If she is into you she won't hesitate. After a few dates she will start sitting next to you automatically!

 

[MatureDJ]

I must admit that I had never really considered this minutiae of sexual proxemics before. It really depends on who is part of the date (i.e., just you and the gal, or a combo date like when you were 13), the exact seating situation (i.e., bar seating, individual chair, booth, couch/windowsill, etc.), and what is the actual activity at the specific part of the date (eating, hanging out looking over a scene, etc.).

If just you and the gal, a booth should have you facing each other - but if it's a combo date, you should be next to her. Pretty much for everything else, you should be next to her, whether it's linearly or circumlocatively (i.e., around a table).

 

[nicksaiz65]

If possible, I try I sit next to my date, as you said it allows one to touch one another and kiss. You can gauge how interested she is by how much of a gap she leaves and whether she initiates the touching etc. But this only works if the restaurant or bar has comfortable seating that cam accommodate two people side-by-side.

Flexibility is important, so don't caught up on seating too much, if the venue only accommodates seating opposite that is fine, use it to your advantage and maintain sensual eye contact.

Rather than concentrating on seating position, focus more on maintaining conversation and turning conversation sexual.

Pro-tip, sometimes if I visit a restaurant for the first time with a date I decline the first table the waitress offers, instead I sift the room for the table with the longest comfortable couch. This makes it easier to suggest sitting side by side.



Its groping if she doesn't like you, if she likes you its Kino. Seriously though, you have to gauge her interest first.



This is good advice, its something I've done personally. If I am sitting on a nice couch I will playfully invite her to sit next to me; "This sofa is soft, come sit next to me". If she is into you she won't hesitate. After a few dates she will start sitting next to you automatically!

I really like the way you put this. You definitely need to be flexible in your approach. So if you can’t sit beside her to escalate, then just go across like you said.

I’m really glad you brought up the topic of Sexualizing dates. That is the topic of my next thread, actually. Too often I have been on these platonic dates that don’t end up leading to anything. I’ll check out your videos that you linked!

Stealing your “this sofa is soft, come sit next to me” Line

 

[nicksaiz65]

I must admit that I had never really considered this minutiae of sexual proxemics before. It really depends on who is part of the date (i.e., just you and the gal, or a combo date like when you were 13), the exact seating situation (i.e., bar seating, individual chair, booth, couch/windowsill, etc.), and what is the actual activity at the specific part of the date (eating, hanging out looking over a scene, etc.).

If just you and the gal, a booth should have you facing each other - but if it's a combo date, you should be next to her. Pretty much for everything else, you should be next to her, whether it's linearly or circumlocatively (i.e., around a table).

That’s the way to do it. A flexible, yet effective strategy.

 

[SW15]

I must admit that I had never really considered this minutiae of sexual proxemics before.

The first time I had heard about and considered spatial relations and dating was around 12-15 years ago and I had already been a participant in the sexual marketplace for about a decade when this happened.

It really depends on who is part of the date (i.e., just you and the gal, or a combo date like when you were 13), the exact seating situation (i.e., bar seating, individual chair, booth, couch/windowsill, etc.), and what is the actual activity at the specific part of the date (eating, hanging out looking over a scene, etc.).

If just you and the gal, a booth should have you facing each other - but if it's a combo date, you should be next to her. Pretty much for everything else, you should be next to her, whether it's linearly or circumlocatively (i.e., around a table).

No combo/group dates. Who does that in the early stages after age 16? That's a ridiculous idea.

About 10 years ago is when I heard the rule of no dinner dates in restaurants prior to sex. It can be a difficult plan to enforce but it is so essential. That eliminates the booth problem.

Side by side seating only at a bar.

 

[RBK]

Bar - Beside
Table - Across

Same siders are weird.

 

[jimwho]

I'm clearly the black sheep here. I believe it's simpler to just enjoy each others company. No worrying about boxing her into the corner or keno or making moves, showing her your bulge. Have fun, drink wine, show her your table manners, how you treat the server, banter, watch how each other eats. There's no way she's not going to let you know what she wants. Every single trick I read above. SHE KNOWS WHAT YOU'RE DOING.