When in doubt....DO NOTHING

[Colossus]

I agree with Jophil in that there is not always an inverse relationship between flaking and interest level.

I really believe that a lot of women, younger ones especially, do not have an internalized value of keeping their word.

The word is a powerful thing. The things we say can inspire, destroy, heal, or poison. We dont always realize the power of the tongue and how carelessly we use it.

So flaking per se is not necessarily an indicator of low IL, but at the very least its annoying and disrespectful. Interested women can flake, but HABITUAL flaking tells a different tale.

 

[STR8UP]

STR8UP,

One of the things I've learned from this site, is that if I don't get a commitment on getting together, I push for it.

Example:

Me: I'm going do blah blah Saturday, want to join?
Her: Maybe, I need to check my plans.
Me: When will you know?
Her: I don't know, I'll get back and let you know.
Me: That's alright, let's just set something up when you're more sure of your schedule.


This has worked for me countless times. I refuse to leave my precious time "open" to a no from some girl. To me it shows she is the prize and I'm willing to put my life on hold for their "possible response" of a "possible yes". Not worth it imo. The interested one's will find a way to make it work.

Trust me, I don't accept maybes.

This situation was different cause SHE was the one that kept talking about what we were going to do next Saturday, so I ASSUMED that on her end there would be no problem. That's why I have a feeling that she got a "better offer".

My mistake was ASKING if we were still on....stupid mistake. Might not have changed the overall outcome but I could have used it to make it known that I don't accept wishy washy behavior.

 

[Juando]

STR8UP,
One of the things I've learned from this site, is that if I don't get a commitment on getting together, I push for it.

Example:

Me: I'm going do blah blah Saturday, want to join?
Her: Maybe, I need to check my plans.
Me: When will you know?
Her: I don't know, I'll get back and let you know.
Me: That's alright, let's just set something up when you're more sure of your schedule.

But what about this one:

Me: When will you know?
Her: Tomorrow. I'll call you.
Me: OK.

But then she does not call tomorrow. Or the next day.
Maybe it takes her two or three days.

And I feel like a chump who's been had;

I know, don't give her the latitude, if there's a next time...

But with a new chic, do you give her the benefit of the doubt?

 

[jophil28]

I just know that for a chick to go from being excited to come and spend the night with me on WEDNESDAY to "I'm finishing up a few things so i don't know if i can make it but i will call you if i can" on Saturday there has to be a pretty damn good reason for it.

Here we go again. This is probably sheer projection.
Your are assuming that WOMEN think like men, logically - linearly ( "There has to be a good reason".....) Women are not motivated by reason they are driven mostly by anxiety and doubt and insecurity which leads to AVOIDANT behavior - wishy washy speech and indecisiveness.
Your thinking is founded in your own motivators - men usually go where the benefits are greatest( and with whom) and you are unconsciously assuming that she is also motivated to do that..
You are convincing yourself that the most likely explanation is that she got a better offer. Why? Because MEN seek their highest reward and you think that women do so too..
However women seek safety and protection FIRST and then reward .\

Wishy washy stuff is driven by apprehension, fear and doubt.
In this case she had enough time to agonise about what MAY go wrong by hooking up with you Saturday night. THen in the few days after Wednesday her doubts and anxiety rose OVER the top of her IL. Eventually she talked herself out of meeting you and then fumbled and mumbled her response which left you confused and pissed.

THis is classic female "What if " thinking at work and another example of the fallacy of believing that a woman's high IL is enough to guarantee reliable and predictable behavior..

 

[ketostix]

Here we go again. This is probably sheer projection.
Your are assuming that WOMEN think like men, logically - linearly ( "There has to be a good reason".....) Women are not motivated by reason they are driven mostly by anxiety and doubt and insecurity which leads to AVOIDANT behavior - wishy washy speech and indecisiveness.
Your thinking is founded in your own motivators - men usually go where the benefits are greatest( and with whom) and you are unconsciously assuming that she is also motivated to do that..
You are convincing yourself that the most likely explanation is that she got a better offer. Why? Because MEN seek their highest reward and you think that women do so too..
However women seek safety and protection FIRST and then reward .\

Wishy washy stuff is driven by apprehension, fear and doubt.
In this case she had enough time to agonise about what MAY go wrong by hooking up with you Saturday night. THen in the few days after Wednesday her doubts and anxiety rose OVER the top of her IL. Eventually she talked herself out of meeting you and then fumbled and mumbled her response which left you confused and pissed.

THis is classic female "What if " thinking at work and another example of the fallacy of believing that a woman's high IL is enough to guarantee reliable and predictable behavior..

This exactly what I've been trying to say in this thread and the other one that had this girl as the example. You just stated it better than I did, jophil. Well needless to say, I'm in agreement.

 

[Juando]

Here we go again. This is probably sheer projection.
Your are assuming that WOMEN think like men, logically - linearly ( "There has to be a good reason".....) Women are not motivated by reason they are driven mostly by anxiety and doubt and insecurity which leads to AVOIDANT behavior - wishy washy speech and indecisiveness.
Your thinking is founded in your own motivators - men usually go where the benefits are greatest( and with whom) and you are unconsciously assuming that she is also motivated to do that..
You are convincing yourself that the most likely explanation is that she got a better offer. Why? Because MEN seek their highest reward and you think that women do so too..
However women seek safety and protection FIRST and then reward .\

Wishy washy stuff is driven by apprehension, fear and doubt.
In this case she had enough time to agonise about what MAY go wrong by hooking up with you Saturday night. THen in the few days after Wednesday her doubts and anxiety rose OVER the top of her IL. Eventually she talked herself out of meeting you and then fumbled and mumbled her response which left you confused and pissed.

THis is classic female "What if " thinking at work and another example of the fallacy of believing that a woman's high IL is enough to guarantee reliable and predictable behavior..

I like the way you think, Jophil.

So based on your analysis of the feminine "mind" in these matters, what does that leave us with- shepherding them, leading them, giving them as little room to "wander" as possible....Taking CONTROL, all couched of course
in a gentlemanly approach that makes them feel like they're making choices
and not being guided by skillful cowboys...unless they test us.

Amazing, this game.

 

[jophil28]

I like the way you think, Jophil.


-- shepherding them, leading them, giving them as little room to "wander" as possible....Taking CONTROL, all couched of course
in a gentlemanly approach that makes them feel like they're making choices
and not being guided by skillful cowboys...unless they test us.

Amazing, this game.

Yes- this is 'THE WAY ' .
I would add however that " shepherding " needs to be mixed with a good dose of "wise and manly protectiveness" because traditionally a shepherd is also a protector.
If you,as a man, are stepping out of the Matrix, then a good woman who is deserving of an LTR with you also needs to be led out of the Matrix. How ? By your creating an atmosphere of reward and safety with you in which her emotional benefits outweigh her rewards of staying in the Matrix.. THis is a process, of course, not an event that happens overnight.

 

[jonwon]

Is this the AW from the other week?

If so, I suspected this would happen.

When she gave your the privilege of allowing you to dry hump her breasts would have been the point when I would have not contacted her again.

This girl is full of games, mind games, shi* tests, attention and validation and so far all I am seeing is a waste of time and effort.

I did give my response on to see how she acts the next time and here you have it, if this is not an indication of an AW seeking validation e.t.c I don’t know what is.

Also I think she already has what she wants from you.

If you want to know what that is, well its simple.

The girl is full of shi* and games it seems, she needed a bastar* to pull her on her ****, where has YOU made excuses for her, hence I don’t think you pulled this chicks buttons, this chick is probably after a nice guy (but deep down she would fuc* a bastar* all night), but her actions are not conclusive with her words, hence only a guy to call her out on her shi* may get somewhere with this chick, sadly it seems you went with her agenda.

The best thing you could have done, is told her where the door was when she offered her breast to console you, after she wan*ed herself off!

Don’t kick yourself though, I think you may have dodged a bullet here, she sounds like too much hard work, hence imo always leads to drama, attention and head fuc* games.

I would delete her number and fuc* her off! Why even bother wasting any more time, she has had her chance.

Your IL is too 'high' with this chick and your still making 'excuses' for her, this is 'the problem', if you want my take on it.

You sure your not trying to polish a tur*?

Even if she was not, I don’t think it could hurt to change your 'thinking' with this chick, hence stop making excuses and get the ball back in your court, if not she is OUT!

Would you act like this with a fat chick?

 

[STR8UP]

But what about this one:

Me: When will you know?
Her: Tomorrow. I'll call you.
Me: OK.

But then she does not call tomorrow. Or the next day.
Maybe it takes her two or three days.

And I feel like a chump who's been had;

I know, don't give her the latitude, if there's a next time...

But with a new chic, do you give her the benefit of the doubt?

That's why in the beginning, before the hook is set, you need to be the one controlling the interaction on your terms.

That's another way I fukked up here.

SHE was the one talking about getting together and I just nodded my head. I had no control. I figured it was a good sign, but I didn't realize that I was giving up my power to set things on MY terms. And women respect that. If you LET them have too much say and too much control she will see you as a pu$$y, even though she is getting her way. Doesn't make much sense, but that's the way it is.

 

[STR8UP]

Here we go again. This is probably sheer projection.
Your are assuming that WOMEN think like men, logically - linearly ( "There has to be a good reason".....)

But there DOES have to be a reason. It doesn't have to be a good one, but for her to take such an action I SERIOUSLY doubt that it had to do with her having a whim that she didn't want to go so for no reason she decided that she would just sit home that night. I HIGHLY doubt she sat home. This is pure speculation, but I have a pretty good nose to sniff things like this out. Everything pointed to her ditching me for other plans.

Your thinking is founded in your own motivators - men usually go where the benefits are greatest( and with whom) and you are unconsciously assuming that she is also motivated to do that..
You are convincing yourself that the most likely explanation is that she got a better offer. Why? Because MEN seek their highest reward and you think that women do so too..
However women seek safety and protection FIRST and then reward .\

So what is your guess? She got cold feet?

Keto seems to think it is cold feet due to third date expectations, which is possible, but I doubt it.

I know what you are trying to say here, and I agree to a point, but women DO tend to go where the benefits are greatest as well. There is always a method to the madness. It might not be readily apparent, but in a case like this I think it's safe to assume that there was some sort of an external factor that caused her to basically cancel and not even bother to call back to follow up. Hence, my conclusion.

Women don't just drop high interest in a guy unless a) He DOES something to cause that, which would have been impossible in this case. OR b) She MOVES her interest to another target.

I know this is still assuming that it was from lowered interest in me/ increased interest in someone else, but from my perspective it's about a 95% chance that's how it went down.

Now assuming that IS how it went down, how I play my cards determines whether or not I'm still in the game. If I pursue her when she is moving away, I'm out of the game. If I sit back and bide my time, I have essentially "walked away" which is the most powerful tool in a man's arsenal. Her interest level in me won't go away without some type of negative action on my part, providing it was only lowered due to another prospect.

 

[jonwon]

SHE was the one talking about getting together and I just nodded my head. I had no control. I figured it was a good sign, but I didn't realize that I was giving up my power to set things on MY terms. And women respect that. If you LET them have too much say and too much control she will see you as a pu$$y, even though she is getting her way. Doesn't make much sense, but that's the way it is.

I dont think its a power play, its simple social interactions.

Women especcially the ones you are describing your meeting, or this one in particuler, would have 'any' guy, bowing like a dog on heat at the privilage of being 'allowed' her company.

But the MAN she really wants or what girls like these pritty creatures require, is a guy who has plans that dont revolve around her and men who are not ready to change all there plans to suit there life-style.

After all lets look at it from her point of view.

If men jump through hoops to try to score with her, then i suspect she has had her fair share of clingy needy guys who will place her where she does not see herslef, i.e on a pedistal.

The time when she told you to make plans and then she said she would phone you if 'her' plans change, was imo another shi* test, she was saying:

You go make plans, i know your interest is so high in me, you will cancel those plans for 'me' and i know that, you have shown me what type of guy you are.
(she has the power, your now placed has a 'stop gap', and you are willing to make excuses for her!).

Where as the MAN she is looking for she would not even say she would phone him back, since she knows if she does not stick to her word, he will be off, most probably fuc*ing linda down the road, or out with his mates clubbing and being surrounded by chic*s.

I think in this situation, you got blind sided by a hot women, your IL shot through the roof and you become a 'yes' guy, to her demands, you even lowered you status imo in the bedroom and was at her 'beck & call', hence she holds or was starting to hold 'all the power' when what she secretly wanted is to be treated like she was some, annoying fat chick who needs to work to get that dam hot piece of male as* infront of her.

The challange, was not here, there was no mystery or challange for this chick, she simply clicked her fingers and you jumped.

I am not sure if the damage has been done, but i do know, you have a different perspective on it now, so the balls in your court (in a way).

If it was me, i would 'forget' about everything prior.

Give it 4-5 days, then call her out of the blue.

And say:

'hey i am free xxx day, and i am needing a nice cold beer, i'd like to invite you along'.

And start again!

from the begining.

this time, make her 'work' for it, instead of the other way around.

Your a guy with options, she just forgot that, when your IL lowered you to a guy who would walk over broken glass coated in shi* to get a piece of her, she does not want that, she wants the mystery, the 'challange', you so far you dont have any!

Sorry, but its easy to get in this situation when a pritty face comes our way, i know this all too well.

 

[STR8UP]

Yes- this is 'THE WAY ' .
I would add however that " shepherding " needs to be mixed with a good dose of "wise and manly protectiveness" because traditionally a shepherd is also a protector.
If you,as a man, are stepping out of the Matrix, then a good woman who is deserving of an LTR with you also needs to be led out of the Matrix. How ? By your creating an atmosphere of reward and safety with you in which her emotional benefits outweigh her rewards of staying in the Matrix.. THis is a process, of course, not an event that happens overnight.

Wise words, indeed.

I've been saying for awhile now that the key to a successful relationship is FIRST AND FOREMOST that the man is a MAN. One who is deprogrammed from society as we know it.

The other key ingredient is a decent woman who WILL NOT be perfect. She will be plugged in, and it is up to the Man to lead her in the right direction. So she must possess key feminine traits, which basically boil down to submitting to the lead of the Real Man.

Awesome stuff here fellas, keep it coming.

 

[STR8UP]

Sorry, but its easy to get in this situation when a pritty face comes our way, i know this all too well.

More AWESOME insight, and I think you are correct about most of it.

I want to expand on a few things but I gotta get some work done so I will return later.....

 

[jophil28]

But there DOES have to be a reason.

>>>> " a reason" ? Perhaps you mean an EXPLANATION.

From your post I get the stong vibe that you are in a kind of perpetual party mode with most of your female "friends" . NO women/chicka is in party mode 24 hours of every day. Your SOP with women is based on creating emotional up swings in women to foster attraction and THEN you are expecting that the attraction that you have created will lead to sex. THis thinking is problematic when you are setting up dates for the near future because her upswing is temporary and the emotional "buzz" that you created in her starts to drop the next day. Over a few days it can almost drop to baseline and then she will flake on any plans because her "worry-wart" of a mind will have convinced her that you are probably a playa / user/ party guy/ ....blah, blah.

You ever been to a great party and had a fat time and then slept it off till noon. Are you still in "party mode" when you stagger out and are crunching your cornflakes? Same with the ladies.They also have the "next day talk" with their G/fs who are most likely to talk you DOWN if THEY have no prospects of a date. Women are like that.
JUst creating attaction like this in party mode is NO guarantee that she will feel the same in a few days time.


***STR8UP then wrote .. "I know what you are trying to say here, and I agree to a point, but women DO tend to go where the benefits are greatest as well. "

>>>>> Benefits ? What benefits are you refering to ?
When her emotions have dropped by about Friday, there is almost NO perceived benefit to being with the same guy on Saturday night. THIS is part of the reason why they flake.
If you are hot with a woman Wednesday night and she is giving buying signals then you need to create "safety and comfort" immediately to increase the chances that she will show up on Saturday night.
Women need attraction PLUS safety and comfort BEFORE they will continue a connection with you into sex (or even a date).
A lot of guys forget this. They create attraction ONLY because they assume that women think and feel and act like men do., WE just need attraction(desire) and a place to f**k. Women need much more-.


STR8UP then wrote ..."Women don't just drop high interest in a guy unless a) He DOES something to cause that, which would have been impossible in this case. OR b) She MOVES her interest to another target."


>>>> WRONG !! THis is projection on your part. Women's emotions swirl and tumble. There is no logic to this. Ask a women why she feels what she feels and watch her response ...* Kangaroo in the headlights" !!

STR8UP wrote again..."Her interest level in me won't go away without some type of negative action on my part, "

>>>> I think that you are wrong again ! THere is no REASON for her drop in IL within the context of your MALE understanding, but her IL will drop all by itself if you are not around to feed it or pump it back up. " What goes up must come down.".

Have you ever talked and joked/ danced with a woman and had a fine time and then a week later she treats you as if you are invisible? Uh huh, we all have - bewildering ain't it?
I rest my case

.

My 3 centavo

 

[Colossus]

I think Jophil nailed it, Str8.

Your thinking is very structured and deductive, which is good for work and other matters, but it doesnt apply very well to women. I would call myself a man of science, but one thing I have learned is that science does not apply to the feminine, at least behaviorally and emotionally. There is not always a cause and effect explaination, or ANY logical explaination for that matter to explain their actions and emotions. Actions are a good indicator of what they are feeling at the time. By nature the feminine is chaotic, non-structured, non-linear, and erratic.

To say that an active, recent expression of high interest from a woman will not go away without a negative action on your part is an example of cause and effect thinking. It could go away for any number of reasons, many of them totally unrelated to you. Dont always assume you played something wrong. You may have played it perfectly, and she could flake for some reason or feeling that makes sense to HER in HER reality. You do what you do and keep on truckin'.

 

[STR8UP]

Is this the AW from the other week?

Your IL is too 'high' with this chick and your still making 'excuses' for her, this is 'the problem', if you want my take on it.

I wouldn't say my IL is too high. I know better than to go there. I didn't even intend for this thread to turn into an analysis of this chicks actions, although I'm learning a lot as a result.

Even if she was not, I don’t think it could hurt to change your 'thinking' with this chick, hence stop making excuses and get the ball back in your court, if not she is OUT!

Would you act like this with a fat chick?

Actually, she is fat.

j/k

I won't deny my attraction to her. But at the same time I know that the chances of us having a serious relationship are slim. By consciously picking out a woman's faults in the very beginning I am able to give myself proper perspective. Don't forget....if anyone is a cynical, jaded bastard when it comes to women it's ME. Actually I like to think of it as being realistic, but other people might see it a little different.

But yea, I need to get the ball back, and I'm tempted to do what you said and just write her off, although I think there's some hope for redemption so I'm not gonna give up just yet

 

[STR8UP]

After all lets look at it from her point of view.

If men jump through hoops to try to score with her, then i suspect she has had her fair share of clingy needy guys who will place her where she does not see herslef, i.e on a pedistal.

Well, I don't see how I could be seen as needy or clingy or anything of the sort. I was guilty of allowing her to control our interactions, yes, but if anything she was the one displaying the interest.

The time when she told you to make plans and then she said she would phone you if 'her' plans change, was imo another shi* test, she was saying:

You go make plans, i know your interest is so high in me, you will cancel those plans for 'me' and i know that, you have shown me what type of guy you are.
(she has the power, your now placed has a 'stop gap', and you are willing to make excuses for her!).

That's why i made this thread. I made it because although I might not have reacted in the right way, I know that by not taking ANY action I didn't react in the WRONG way either. If I would have agreed to those terms I wouldn't blame her for losing interest.

I think in this situation, you got blind sided by a hot women, your IL shot through the roof and you become a 'yes' guy, to her demands, you even lowered you status imo in the bedroom and was at her 'beck & call', hence she holds or was starting to hold 'all the power' when what she secretly wanted is to be treated like she was some, annoying fat chick who needs to work to get that dam hot piece of male as* infront of her.

There is some truth to this.

I consciously felt the power shift when she basically laid out the terms for sexual contact.

I'm SOOO tempted to just forget about her and if she calls she calls, if not, oh well. But I think on the off chance that she's one of those chicks who will sit there and at night all alone before she calls a guy I will wait awhile and give it one more shot. I don't think it can hurt anything to do so.

 

[STR8UP]

Jophil-

I don't think it has anything to do with her seeing me as a player or anything. Your "emotional buzz" theory is interesting though.

You will have to clarify this "safety and comfort" thing. If you are speaking of it in the traditional sense, I don't know how much more safety and comfort I could have given on the telephone Wednesday night. Especially considering she's been in my bed more than once. Am I missing something? i mean, if a chick feels safe and comfortable enough to spend the night at your place with no car to be able to leave or anything, I don't know what else you can do. I would have assumed that I passed that stage a long time ago if she was willing to be left alone with me that first night.

You say that her IL will drop all by itself if I am not around to pump it back up?

If you have been intimate with a chick that has displayed high interest, chances are that her IL will INCREASE when you aren't seen or heard for a period of time.

Again, we aren't talking about a chick I met off the street last week. As a matter of fact I hadn't paid a whole lot of attention to her until one night earlier this year when I met her and the AW out one night and she started initiating heavy kino, holding my hand, riding back with me to the AW's house, asking qualifying questions, etc. This was probably 8 months ago.

Had I just met her and failed to make enough of a connection then yea, what you are saying is absolutely true. But with as long as I have known her and the progression of attraction, I don't believe that my absence for a few days or a week would lower her IL.

And I agree with the idea that women's emotions can be fickle, but I refuse to believe that they are as out of control as you make them out to be. Fact is, the VAST majority of the time there IS a reason for what they do. It might seem ridiculous to us, but most often there is a cause and effect. Their emotions aren't simply as random as a leaf blowing in the wind- most of the time a drop in IL can be traced back to a reason, even if it seems to be based upon something that is doesn't make sense to a man, there is usually a root cause for a change.

 

[STR8UP]

Your thinking is very structured and deductive, which is good for work and other matters, but it doesnt apply very well to women. I would call myself a man of science, but one thing I have learned is that science does not apply to the feminine, at least behaviorally and emotionally. There is not always a cause and effect explaination, or ANY logical explaination for that matter to explain their actions and emotions. Actions are a good indicator of what they are feeling at the time. By nature the feminine is chaotic, non-structured, non-linear, and erratic.

To say that an active, recent expression of high interest from a woman will not go away without a negative action on your part is an example of cause and effect thinking. It could go away for any number of reasons, many of them totally unrelated to you. Dont always assume you played something wrong. You may have played it perfectly, and she could flake for some reason or feeling that makes sense to HER in HER reality. You do what you do and keep on truckin'.

That's just it.....it's all based on her reality.

It sounds as if you are saying that a drop in IL can't always be traced back to something specific, is that correct?

I say it can almost ALWAYS be traced back to SOMETHING, although sometimes neither the man or the woman can put their finger on it.

Fact is, she's qualifying you from the moment she feels attraction. I'm not going to say that there is ALWAYS a concrete reason why her feelings change. It's not that simple. But when it really comes down to it there is usually a reason.

Maybe you failed a sh!t test. Maybe you show too much interest too soon and it turns her off. Maybe it's something as stupid as her misinterpreting something you said, but there is almost ALWAYS some kind of underlying reason.

Point is, you can THINK you did everything right, and maybe according to the generally accepted rules of engagement with women you DID do everything right, but in HER reality something CAUSED her to see you as a less attractive mating prospect. I fully believe that there is almost always SOMETHING that causes a drop in IL, even if to US it makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[ketostix]

I do think what jophil saying makes sense with my own experience and thoughts on this. I think regaming a girl in this situation would've been helpful and it really isn't all that hard necessarily.

Regaming her would've been first off engaging her confidently, eg, "Hey, whats up? What time are you coming over?". Then if she still wafled you might respond with something like "Well it's Saturday night. We have plans. Let's do something." And if she still waffles you might respond negatively to that and/or do a takeaway.

I think women are state junkies and need their interest level and attraction pumped up somewhat periodically. I think a lot of naturals do this, well naturally, without thinking about it. And think by comfort and trust it's about her comfort and trust in engaging in a sexual relationship with you. Not comfort and trust that you're a stranger and might rob and hurt her physically. Your task is to lead her to a meet up by confidently leading her to buying the idea and replacing her worry-wort thinking with your suggestions.