When cooking your beef..

[guru1000]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but just that all of modern medical science disagrees.

http://wellnessletter.com/test/html/fw/fwNut01HealthyDiet.html

13 Keys to a Healthy Diet (from UC Berkley)

4 Cut down on animal fat. It’s rich in saturated fat, which boosts blood cholesterol levels and has other adverse health effects. Choose lean meats, skinless poultry, and nonfat or low-fat or nonfat dairy products.

8 Keep your cholesterol intake below 300 milligrams per day. Cholesterol is found only in animal products, such as meats, poultry, dairy products, and egg yolks.

If it's so obvious, then why do doctors and researchers disagree with sosuave? Is it a vast, right-wing conspiracy? I try to be open-minded, but I would like to see some research that proves all of the other research wrong.

See thats the problem with modern medicine. What is great now was CANCER causing 20 years ago. That is why I find the best way to KNOW is to see what works for you. No two bodies will respond the same to any diet, workout routine or cardio.

However there are directions many of us can take that are productive.

I don't want to get into a war of CHOLESTEROL links. Just google it.

For a healthy bodbuilder who is natural, the added cholesterol in the diet can only improve his anabolic state if training is hard enough. The bodybuilder's body will not increase blood cholesterol if more is needed for raw process of anabolic hormones.

For the couch potato adding cholesterol will only serve two purposes:

1) More testosterone aromatizing into estogen
2) More cholesterol in the blood stream if genetically pre-disposed to be

In Dan Duchaine's diet as well with high fat low carbs dieting; the body goes into a state of ketosis therby using fat rather than carbs for fuel. This is the diet where FATS and CHOLESTEROL are needed the most.

The reason why I bring up the ANABOLIC DIET(Dan Duchaine) is many of us do not take the proper amount of carbs to fuel our heavy duty work outs. That being said, if we are not overtraining we are burning up our glycogen stores. Once this happens , we reach our ketogenic state. In this state, FATS and CHOLESTEROL in abundance is a must to remain ANABOLIC and not burn muscle.

There are so many advantages to FAT and CHOLESTROL. One thing is for sure, if you are a NATURAL healthy bodybuuilder, your upmost concern should be your level of ANABOLIC STATE. Remaining highly anabolic trumps dieting and training combined.

 

[Commando]

I think you should always drain your meat after you stoke it.

 

[guru1000]

ok gotcha...I agree we do need cholesterol, I think I already said that
More daily cholesterol does NOT mean more testosterone though

.

If your body requires more anabolic hormones than YES it does. The probability is quite the opposite. You probably take less CHOLESTEROL than your body truly needs.

Using bodybuilders as a reason to eat anything is stupid !! bodybuilders are the most reckless people alive, they don't care about there health like you and I, THEY ONLY LIVE TO POSE ON STAGE AND YIELD THE HIGHEST MUSCULAR GAINS AT ANY COST !!

I assume everyone on this board is a bodybuilder and is concerned about their health.

You are speaking of not natural PROFESSIONAL bodybuilders.

no use bible he's got the power of the H&F Vault on his side !

H & F as well as google is what taught you cholesterol is BAD. Are you unplugged now?

 

[Drum&Bass]

H & F as well as google is what taught you cholesterol is BAD. Are you unplugged now?

I work with a biologist, some of my knowledge of cholesterol comes from him.

 

[guru1000]

I work with a biologist, some of my knowledge of cholesterol comes from him.

When your bioliogist has blood work like mine:

Total Testosterone -1200ng/dl

Total Cholesterol 135

LDL: 80

HDL: 55

Tryglycerides: 120

Eating 2-3 pounds of RARE cooked meat a day. Then come talk to me.

 

[Bible_Belt]

In Dan Duchaine's diet as well with high fat low carbs dieting; the body goes into a state of ketosis therby using fat rather than carbs for fuel. This is the diet where FATS and CHOLESTEROL are needed the most.

There are so many advantages to FAT and CHOLESTROL. One thing is for sure, if you are a NATURAL healthy bodybuuilder, your upmost concern should be your level of ANABOLIC STATE. Remaining highly anabolic trumps dieting and training combined.

This is off-topic, but there is a book called 'The Grapplers' Guide' which is geared toward nutrition for fighters and wrestlers, with the goal being to build muscle and drop body fat, but not gain weight. The author says to not eat carbs before working out, that they go to make fat. He does not count fruit and veg carbs, only grains and processed sugars. But he says after a typical intense workout, to then eat carbs, because the body will use them to rebuild the muscle torn down in the workout. He says up to six hours after working out, to eat all the bread and pasta you desire. This is the opposite of what I have been doing - I've been eating carbs during the day, thinking of them as fuel for my evening workout.

I was wondering what people here think of this take on carb consumption. Keep in mind that gaining mass is not the objective. Here is an interview with the book's author:
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=848351

 

[simon]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but just that all of modern medical science disagrees.

http://wellnessletter.com/test/html/fw/fwNut01HealthyDiet.html

13 Keys to a Healthy Diet (from UC Berkley)

4 Cut down on animal fat. It’s rich in saturated fat, which boosts blood cholesterol levels and has other adverse health effects. Choose lean meats, skinless poultry, and nonfat or low-fat or nonfat dairy products.

8 Keep your cholesterol intake below 300 milligrams per day. Cholesterol is found only in animal products, such as meats, poultry, dairy products, and egg yolks.


If it's so obvious, then why do doctors and researchers disagree with sosuave? Is it a vast, right-wing conspiracy? I try to be open-minded, but I would like to see some research that proves all of the other research wrong.

Pretty sure you've been offered a wealth of information about this topic before...but I'll give you some links anyway.

http://www.thincs.org/Malcolm.choltheory.htm is ok to start with.

See this and this for excellent indepth discussions and criticism of all the litetature, the first book especially. Both books prove that the research is wrong. Bad analysis of bad data.

Others books such as this and this would probably be worth reading also.

D&B and MM: don't try to give advice until you've thoroughly researched the subject for yourselves.

 

[simon]

I work with a biologist, some of my knowledge of cholesterol comes from him.

I work with many biologists and biochemists. Most of them are clueless about the subject.

 

[Bible_Belt]

Once again, I am not claiming you are wrong. But anyone can write a book. The "conspiracy" element of the cholesterol=good camp makes me suspicious. If I could read these things at a .edu web address or see the full text of the research from which the claims are made, that would be more convincing.

 

[Drum&Bass]

I believe in results and experience. I haven't had my bloodwork done recently but I'm assuming guru has. His stats LDL and HDL stats are good. I'm not sure about the TOTAL cholesterol though, it seems AWFULLY high and I thought that was a really bad thing.

I dunno, though maybe some of you are at different places..recommending eating alot of cholesterol and saturated fat to any and everybody may not be the right thing, I dunno.
For elite athletes and people who are NOT beginners yea maybe increasing cholesterol and fat maybe a huge benefit.

I'll have to go on a high cholesterol diet myself and get blood work done and see what happens.

If my stats look good, then I'll be convinced that for Novices and above a high cholesterol high saturated fat diet is a good thing.

 

[Quagmire911]

You need Throttle, I have the ability to think for myself and do my own research which includes talking to actual biologists and professionals..

 

[simon]

Once again, I am not claiming you are wrong. But anyone can write a book. The "conspiracy" element of the cholesterol=good camp makes me suspicious. If I could read these things at a .edu web address or see the full text of the research from which the claims are made, that would be more convincing.

Anthony Colpo used almost 1500 references in his book. Buy the book and read the most important references.

 

[Mad Manic]

Actually, mono and EFA's aid hormonal production but not in the EFFICIENCY and manner that cholesterol does.

Your body needs the RAW MATERIALS of CHOLESTEROL to produce ANABOLIC hormones.

So even though the other fats assist in the process. There will be no process without the RAW MATERIALS needed.

CHOLESTEROL IS THE RAW MATERIAL MUST.

Now to add LEAN MASS, one must know how to create the most ANABOLIC environment for his body. In other words, you are sitting counting calories to add LEAN MASS but discounting that you may be on a 6000 calorie a day diet and add only lean mass if your anabolic state is HIGH enough.

This accounts as to why testosterone injectors eat 5000-10000 calories a day adding only lean mass while losing body fat.

Yes if you are trying to get your bf down to below 6 % , caloric intake must be monitored to the T. However to add lean mass, the goal is to be in the most ANABOLIC state. And naturally, this would include have the raw material of CHOLESTEROL in abundance.

Yes we already agreed some cholesterol and sat fat is needed. But again who says we want the most anabloic state? The most anabolic state also means adding a lot of fat. Infact the more you eat, the more muscle you add, it's just that you get diminishing returns when you eat too much above maintenance. Again, it's all well saying to create the most anabolic environment, but that isn't the best way to add mass whilst adding little fat. Sumo wrestlers have the most muscle mass per inch of height, but again with all that fat what good is that from a bodybuilding perspective? As for your claim that BBers can eat 10k of calories and add LBM whilst losing fat, that's just fantasy. If you're in a calorie surplus you add fat and muscle, in a deficit you lose fat and muscle. Training, diet, genetics, supps, drugs, cardio etc. determine the ratios.

MM

 

[spesmilitis]

I wouldn't call MM and D&B ignorant for holding the views that they do on fat and cholesterol consumption. The lipid hypothesis is still highly regarded, my nutrition class pretty much followed the lipid hypothesis. But, in a few years the lipid hypothesis will probably be completely debunked. 10 years ago nutritionists were like 'no saturated fats and cholesterol at all!'. 5 years ago they were like 'a little bit is ok'. Now they're like 'a little bit is good for optimal health and functioning'. Probably, in 5 years they'll be like, 'a decent amount will be needed for optimum health and functioning'.

My guess on why nutritionists and doctors are being conservative on recommended more saturated fat and cholesterol is that they might get sued. For example, some dumbass may eat more saturated fat and cholesterol, but also eats a buttload of refined carbs and poly-6's and gets a heart attack. Then he blames that doctor for recommending a decent amount of sf and chol for his heart attack and decided to sue that doctor. Since the fact that the lipid hypothesis is bs isn't common knowledge, the jury won't know any better and award the dumbass.

 

[Throttle]

I agree with spez. That is all.

 

[wolf116]

I agree with spez. That is all.

Yeah, nice post spes.

 

[Drum&Bass]

After doing a little more research, it seems that the guys who eat lots of fat and cholesterol may not be getting the negative effects because of other variables in the diet and lifestyle.

Yes you might eat alot of meat and fat yes you may have went to the doctor and got excellent bloodwork results but what does that really mean ??

For a majority of us we eat healthy, fruits, veggies and a good balance of fats and proteins etc. this might have more of an effect on the cholesterol you ingest than anyone seems to realize.

Having a good balance of food everyday will "neutralize" LDL cholesterol levels. Living an active lifestlye makes your body more efficient at burning fat.

so basically a person might eat alot of the fats and cholesterol from food but because of the balance of other foods in their diet the cholesterol is expelled from the body. So many of you might be thinking, "yea I'm so cool, I eat all this fat and cholesterol and all these scientists say that eating fat and cholesterol is bad, but look at me I'm healthy and cool." when in actuality the healthy foods and lifestyle you live prevent you from ever having an over abundance of cholesterol in your system.

None of us will ever truly know if having a high build up of cholesterol is bad or good unless we eat nothing but meat, eggs and milk and nothing else !! no water, no plant based nutrients etc.. because most natural foods EXPEL excess cholesterol in your system and help you maintain a balance.

 

[guru1000]

After doing a little more research, it seems that the guys who eat lots of fat and cholesterol may not be getting the negative effects because of other variables in the diet and lifestyle.

Yes you might eat alot of meat and fat yes you may have went to the doctor and got excellent bloodwork results but what does that really mean ??

For a majority of us we eat healthy, fruits, veggies and a good balance of fats and proteins etc. this might have more of an effect on the cholesterol you ingest than anyone seems to realize.

Having a good balance of food everyday will "neutralize" LDL cholesterol levels. Living an active lifestlye makes your body more efficient at burning fat.

so basically a person might eat alot of the fats and cholesterol from food but because of the balance of other foods in their diet the cholesterol is expelled from the body. So many of you might be thinking, "yea I'm so cool, I eat all this fat and cholesterol and all these scientists say that eating fat and cholesterol is bad, but look at me I'm healthy and cool." when in actuality the healthy foods and lifestyle you live prevent you from ever having an over abundance of cholesterol in your system.

None of us will ever truly know if having a high build up of cholesterol is bad or good unless we eat nothing but meat, eggs and milk and nothing else !! no water, no plant based nutrients etc.. because most natural foods EXPEL excess cholesterol in your system and help you maintain a balance.

If you want to get technical. It is a proven fact that an abundance of saturated fat and cholesterol are NECESSITIES in a ketogenic diet. Taking high fats and cholesterol while the body is in ketosis will actually lower blood LDL levels.

There are also many benfits to high intake in other diets with infrequent intervals. But instead of taking the liberty to write a book on HOW TO TAKE FATS AND CHOLESTEROL, let me interject by saying this is not my point.

THE POINT is if your goal is to build or maintain muscle mass and lose or mantain low levels of bf, your body must remain anabolic.

To be in a highly anabolic state means to have high levels of testosterone and gf-1. These hormones are critically essential for LBM.

Cholesterol is a MUST as it is a precursor to production of anabolic hormones. With inadequete intake, you will shoot yourself in the foot despite training and diet.

Do you realize you can gain more lean body mass NOT TRAINING with 2000 ng/dl of testosterone and 1000 gf-1 than a guy who trains hard and diets properly who has 300 ng/dl of test and 250 gf-1.

Is that not amazing???

The key to true muscle growth is :

1) Testesterone
2) Growth Hormone

You must give your body enough of the raw material pre-cursor CHOLESTEROL to produce enough of these hormones. Otherwise you are not MAXIMIZING your potential.

 

[Drum&Bass]

It is a proven fact that an abundance of saturated fat and cholesterol are NECESSITIES in a ketogenic diet. Taking high fats and cholesterol while the body is in ketosis will actually lower blood LDL levels.

ok, but Ketosis is a state that no one stays in for long periods of time, and all it does is use fat for energy not carbohydrates big woop, I wouldn't call it a necessity, its just something that happens when your starving have low carbohydrates in your system.

There are also many benfits to high intake in other diets with infrequent intervals. But instead of taking the liberty to write a book on HOW TO TAKE FATS AND CHOLESTEROL, let me interject by saying this is not my point.

no clue what you just said here.

To be in a highly anabolic state means to have high levels of testosterone and gf-1. These hormones are critically essential for LBM.

Cholesterol is a MUST as it is a precursor to production of anabolic hormones. With inadequete intake, you will shoot yourself in the foot despite training and diet.

cholesterol is like protein, having a certain amount is beneficial but to much at once, and it is expelled from the body or becomes fat. Protein is great, but you overloading yourself with protein at once won't make you get bigger. Same thing with cholesterol, you need some cholesterol but you don't have to go crazy and eat the fat from meat and gourge yourself on saturated fats. You can get HDL cholesterol from better sources. The point is to have a GOOD BALANCE of cholesterol, NOT to eat all the cholesterol and fat you can.

Do you realize you can gain more lean body mass NOT TRAINING with 2000 ng/dl of testosterone and 1000 gf-1 than a guy who trains hard and diets properly who has 300 ng/dl of test and 250 gf-1.

where did you get this info ??

By the way what does growth hormone have to do with cholesterol ?

 

[Mad Manic]

ok, but Ketosis is a state that no one stays in for long periods of time, and all it does is use fat for energy not carbohydrates big woop, I wouldn't call it a necessity, its just something that happens when your starving have low carbohydrates in your system.

no clue what you just said here.

cholesterol is like protein, having a certain amount is beneficial but to much at once, and it is expelled from the body or becomes fat. Protein is great, but you overloading yourself with protein at once won't make you get bigger. Same thing with cholesterol, you need some cholesterol but you don't have to go crazy and eat the fat from meat and gourge yourself on saturated fats. You can get HDL cholesterol from better sources. The point is to have a GOOD BALANCE of cholesterol, NOT to eat all the cholesterol and fat you can.


where did you get this info ??

By the way what does growth hormone have to do with cholesterol ?

He still hasn't grasped the idea that although sat fats and cholesterol create a great anabolic environment, you will lay down a lot of fat with it. We are wanting lean gains, not the best anabolic environment which means fat gains.

MM