We Are Straying from the Path that was Laid out Before Us
- Thread starter LeftyLoosey
- Start date
Value to society and people in general, or value in the mating game? I was speaking strictly of their value in dealing with women.Rollo Tomassi said:
Virtue, integrity, respectability, ethics and morality in society and business is MUCH different than it is in the mating game. Guys fall into this trap where they believe that these things are important when dealing with women, when they are actually more of a detriment to success on the sexual market.
Who gets laid the most? The honest guy or the guy who lies his ass off? the guy who has sex with one chick or has sex with multiple chicks? This, of course is a little bit different when you are dealing with relationships, but much of it crosses over into that territory as well.
In business and society in general it works differently. The upstanding citizen (to a point) reaps long term gains when dealing in business and platonic social situations.
I do not deny the social value of these things. This is what separates us from other primates and makes us unique in the animal kingdom. I have the same issue as you do with people not understanding that these are the effects of biology at work in a highly intelligent species, and will never "replace" biology as a primary, base motivator for our actions.
This needs to be clarified.STR8UP said:
Women do value *morality* in a guy. It's just that she values other things MORE: fame, power, money, dominance, looks, etc
But if you take two guys both of whom have the fame, power, money, dominance, and looks, but the former is a liar and a cheat, and the latter has class and character, the girl will choose the latter guy every single time. Class and character ALWAYS wins out. Just like how, if you have 2 girls who are equally hot, you will always choose the classy girl over the slutty girl.
You are correct. Being a *moral* man will cause you to miss opportunities for sex:STR8UP said:
1) You could have hooked up with that married girl on that business trip
2) You could have slept with your best friend's gf
3) You could have lied and told her you were a Fortune 500 exec to get into her pants
but you were a *moral* man so you *missed out* on those opportunities.
But so what? So what that you *missed out* on some sex? A real man doesn't care that he *missed out* on some sex. Sex is good but a real man knows that it is NEVER worth sacrificing your integrity or morals.
STR8UP - do you even stand for anything at all? It appears that your value system is
1) If it gets me sex with girls, it has value
2) If it does not get me sex with girls, it has no value whatsoever
This is what seperates the men from the boys. Men have definite convictions, they stand for high lofty ideals such as courage, loyalty, and honesty, and being true to yourself, even when it is not necessarily to your immediate benefit.
Boys stand for none of the above, boys only stand for one thing - one night stands.
Be a man, have class, character and *sophisticated* style. Take the final step and add *morals* to your fame, money, power and dominance/masculinity that you already have developed thru your DJ journey.
Become the *complete package*
And soon you will attract a girl who FINALLY *has it all* too - a girl who is hot, has style, AND is classy.
Interceptor
Master Don Juan
Now that's a great post. Well said.Trader said:
I also have a hard time understanding the logic of a person who thinks having Morals automatically means one is effeminate, dumb, naive, easily manipulated, and a hypocrite. Juse because one actively chooses ethical consideration, humanity, respect and consideration, and moral choices does not make one weak, or un assertive, or a coward. One can have morals and still have knockout power in both his hands and knock the sh*t out of someone who fvcks with him physically when he said "Stop" and the other guy didnt...
Being aggressive is not an undesireable trait. But having the Wisdom to KNOW When is much different.
One can have morals and still be able to defend his family and provide for them,even when resources are sarce.
But I wonder if having the integrity to actively choose a Moral choice in the heat of the moment were easy, how many more people would make that choice?
What some people see as a failing, may actually be a strength. So in many cases, the active Choosing demonstrates, IMO, a stronger integrity than the person who throws in the towel for whatever reason they chose. And yes, of course, everyone is allowed to make their choices. But also remember that we all share this one planet too..
Of course there are hypocrites. Of COURSE there are.
But not everyone is a hypocrite...
And how about a person who doesnt value morals but wants to be treated with respect, consideration, and kindness??
I cant understand that.
In the land of no morals, everything goes. And nothing matters. So what will someone value and protect???
I think its easy to SAY one is immoral or ammoral, in a world where there are laws, and police, the military, doctors, paramedics, you name it...many, NOT ALL, who DO want ethical exchanges with people, and consider it their duty and honor, to protect and heal us.
They will be there for you when you call for them.
But there is no honor among thieves , they say.
I believe that the ultimate goal for having morals and sticking to them is for recognizing humanenes, having consideration for a fellow human being, and for having the cleanest possible energetic exchanges possible.
The concept of morality seems best suited for people that believe in an after life, and even reincarnation, and also...Karma.
So they are looking at things for the long haul, not instant gratification...at what cost??
So I can see how someone who believes in only one life, no after life, doesnt value anything, wants instant gratification, and doesnt respect anyone's personal boundaries, no such thing as Karma, and doesnt value or respect humanity...all these types of things in their consciousness...can make them believe it is all for naught.
What is the point of having morals if it doesnt get you what you want? they say...
But certain people want different things.
And because of different value systems they will conduct themselves according to what they value.
This is different than being a fool, or naive, easily taken advantage of.
Having morals for some means that there is a way of conducting oneself to not incur more bad karma (remember, they believe in karma) , to not have to go through certain suffering and pain..how?? Because they made the choice to not inflict it on someone else.
That way they can feel that they are not drawing that negative energy back into their lives..only to repeat it again and again.
So ultimately, this is quite a more spiritual matter, than seeing one's just Physical rewards for being a moral person.
I also believe, that the more important thing is what IS the underlying operating system?
Is it one of Health? Or dysfunction?
Is it of abundance? Or scarcity?
Is it of Fear? Or love??
That is what certain people, who want live an active life, being aware, and be aware of the choices they are making often review and ask themselves.
A walking , fear based reaction??
How many people really want that?
But then, how many people dont realize they are that kind of person??
We cant give what we dont have.
We cant recognize in others something, if we havent recognized it in ourselves.
Thats why the less one is connected to humanity, the less one is connected with one's Self.
And I just dont think it pays or is a healthy, just thing to do.
iqqi
Master Don Juan
Great posts by Trader and Interceptor.
I buy that. Kind of.Trader said:
I don't believe that "morality" in and of itself is a highly attractive trait in a man, any more than, say, a great sense of humor is in women. It might be somewhat of a bonus, but it isn't a primary attractant.
And by saying that they value all of that "other" stuff over morailty doesn't do much to advance your cause. If women value all of these other traits over morality, what are you better off cultivating as a man?
Your post is steeped with controlling words. What is a controlling word? Well, it's what would be a shaming word if you were criticizing someone for said behavior.
You have been conditioned to believe that the same traits that win you favor with society and in the business world are the same traits that win you favor with women. Not so.
Any time I hear a guy espousing virtues when it comes to women it tells me that he hasn't pulled back the curtain to expose the true nature of the mating game.
Read More Roissy.
A man who cheats on his wife or lies to get into a chick's pants can have "class, character, and sophisticated style" just like the man who is perfectly honest and faithful.
I have said this many times before, but it isn't WOMEN who are romantic fools, it is MEN. As we all know, women TALK about how they want flowers and poetry and "I love you!" 20 times a day, but what happens when you give that to them? BLAM! They are REPULSED by your mere presence.
This whole morality lie (as it pertains to women) is just an extension of the romance lie. Except that it's much harder to get your mind wrapped around it, much the same way that you can grasp that the idea of the Soulmate Myth, but you still hold onto the Myth of The Quality Woman.
This is simply another one of those lies that you have been told your entire life and NOT EVEN SOSUAVE is advanced enough to exorcise from deep within you.
Ahhh....the fallacies abound.....
Luthor Rex
Master Don Juan
There are some things in our power and there are many things that are not. Some of the things in our power are our opinions, our goals, our intention, and in a word whatever is our own doing. Things not in our power include our heath, our wealth, our reputation, our status, and in a word whatever is not our own doing. These things are not in our power because we cannot guarantee their outcomes.Rollo Tomassi said:
Things in our power are by nature free for us to choose, unhindered, unimpeded, but the things not in our power are weak, slavish, hindered, and belong to others. Remember then that whenever we incorrectly suppose those things that are by nature not in our power to be free, or those things that belong to others to be your own, you will be hindered you will be distressed you will curse both the world and those living in it.
If, however, you suppose to be yours only what is yours and what belongs to another to belong to another, no one will compel you, no one will hinder you. You will not hold bitterness in your heart and you will not hold grudges against anyone. You will not act against your own will, and no one will harm you because no harm can come to you.**
But none of this means we renounce the world and live as monks. Certainly we shall still pursue building the worlds we wish to live in. However, we shall remind ourselves that while we can direct our actions we cannot guarantee their outcomes. So when we work for things in this world we should put our happiness in the part of our projects we control - our options, actions, etc. - and we should not place our happiness in the outcomes of part of our projects we do not control - such as their outcomes.
Do I prefer to have 'good' women in my life? Yes I do, but I shall not place my happiness into their hands.
Do I prefer to have success in business and acquire material goods? Yes I do, but I shall not place my happiness in having these things.
A modern Aristotelian talks about a morality of happiness:
**Paraphrased from here.
Victory Unlimited
Master Don Juan
Yo Troops!
It is a disappointing sight whenever you see a man, ANY MAN, sell his soul (comprised of the integrity and the soundness of his mind, his will, and his emotions) for the sake of any ONE thing, ONE idea, or ONE urge. This singularity mindset often is the precursor of a compartmentalized point of view-------a point of view that leads him to over-value that one thing to the point where he only sees significance in the part, and sees absolutely NO SIGINIFICANCE or RELEVANCE in the whole.
This then, leads him to devalue other things for the sake of the pursuit of the ONE thing. For some, this thing is SEX. And for those men, this brand of extremist thinking can cross the line into self-delusion. And ultimately, it reaches the point where they make their viewpoint their “religion”, and they subsequently worship at the altar of Pusssy------so much so that they make their sex drive their Gods, their Dikks their divining rods-------and their ejaculations their salvation.
It is no wonder that some of these men think so lowly of women AS A WHOLE, because this is such an excellent Scapegoating Method to use for the purpose of sidestepping even the smallest chance of taking ANY responsibility for being just a little bit of the “low-life” themselves.
To these men, the very idea that in some cases, both he AND THE WOMAN could realistically share parts of the blame is UNTHINKABLE------or “AFC” even.
Nevertheless, for a good portion of these men who have placed their faith ONLY in their urges, some have learned much to their chagrin that far from divining rods, what their dikks have actually become are just biological leashes that those women who are enemies to their souls (their minds, their wills, and their emotions) use to pull them places where they’d rather not be--------take them further than they initially wanted to go-------------and KEEP them longer than they ever planned on staying.
Many men HERE who have “figuratively” fought alongside me in this never-ending war to elevate, escalate, and revelate “from” the more mundane manners of maleness and “towards” a more magnificent and magnanimous measures of MANHOOD, have found that it is, indeed-----------a mission WORTH taking.
Yes, for these men, the revelation that they are far more than just a collection of body parts that exist ONLY for the purpose to be slavishly driven to pursue a “complementary” collection of body parts---------has been a liberating experience.
Many of their eyes are open.
Many of their minds are open.
And many of their HEARTS are open, as well.
They are open, yes, but NOT to the pitfalls awaiting the novice, nor to the deceptions awaiting the naïve, but rather,-------------they are open to POSSIBILITIES. This is the Mature Man Forum. There are NO un-enlisted civilians here------just soldiers. And MOST-------motherfukkin’ VETERANS.
And many have confided in me over the years that it was their mere “BELIEF” in just the POSSIBILITY that men empowered by knowledge, fortified with inner strength, and equipped with a clarity of vision that allows them to see MILES, and sometimes even YEARS past the lengths of their dikks--------that made ALL THE DIFFERENCE.
For these men, the foundational revelation was simply this:
Manhood is NOT just about growing “a pair”, it’s about growing in your perception---------AND growing the FUKK UP.
Soldier on.
It is a disappointing sight whenever you see a man, ANY MAN, sell his soul (comprised of the integrity and the soundness of his mind, his will, and his emotions) for the sake of any ONE thing, ONE idea, or ONE urge. This singularity mindset often is the precursor of a compartmentalized point of view-------a point of view that leads him to over-value that one thing to the point where he only sees significance in the part, and sees absolutely NO SIGINIFICANCE or RELEVANCE in the whole.
This then, leads him to devalue other things for the sake of the pursuit of the ONE thing. For some, this thing is SEX. And for those men, this brand of extremist thinking can cross the line into self-delusion. And ultimately, it reaches the point where they make their viewpoint their “religion”, and they subsequently worship at the altar of Pusssy------so much so that they make their sex drive their Gods, their Dikks their divining rods-------and their ejaculations their salvation.
It is no wonder that some of these men think so lowly of women AS A WHOLE, because this is such an excellent Scapegoating Method to use for the purpose of sidestepping even the smallest chance of taking ANY responsibility for being just a little bit of the “low-life” themselves.
To these men, the very idea that in some cases, both he AND THE WOMAN could realistically share parts of the blame is UNTHINKABLE------or “AFC” even.
Nevertheless, for a good portion of these men who have placed their faith ONLY in their urges, some have learned much to their chagrin that far from divining rods, what their dikks have actually become are just biological leashes that those women who are enemies to their souls (their minds, their wills, and their emotions) use to pull them places where they’d rather not be--------take them further than they initially wanted to go-------------and KEEP them longer than they ever planned on staying.
Many men HERE who have “figuratively” fought alongside me in this never-ending war to elevate, escalate, and revelate “from” the more mundane manners of maleness and “towards” a more magnificent and magnanimous measures of MANHOOD, have found that it is, indeed-----------a mission WORTH taking.
Yes, for these men, the revelation that they are far more than just a collection of body parts that exist ONLY for the purpose to be slavishly driven to pursue a “complementary” collection of body parts---------has been a liberating experience.
Many of their eyes are open.
Many of their minds are open.
And many of their HEARTS are open, as well.
They are open, yes, but NOT to the pitfalls awaiting the novice, nor to the deceptions awaiting the naïve, but rather,-------------they are open to POSSIBILITIES. This is the Mature Man Forum. There are NO un-enlisted civilians here------just soldiers. And MOST-------motherfukkin’ VETERANS.
And many have confided in me over the years that it was their mere “BELIEF” in just the POSSIBILITY that men empowered by knowledge, fortified with inner strength, and equipped with a clarity of vision that allows them to see MILES, and sometimes even YEARS past the lengths of their dikks--------that made ALL THE DIFFERENCE.
For these men, the foundational revelation was simply this:
Manhood is NOT just about growing “a pair”, it’s about growing in your perception---------AND growing the FUKK UP.
Soldier on.
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Rollo Tomassi
Master Don Juan
^^^^^^^^^^
Wha,..? Where's the quick hit filler post from IQQI? Oh OK, I'll do it for her, "Great post VU, glad to see there's someone here who still gets it." :yes:
The problem with this concept is that morality needs to be appreciated for it to really be validated, but in advertising one's own moral values he paints a target on himself. Fishing for that appreciation turns virtue into vanity. This then becomes further complicated when they seek like qualities in women. They want a woman who'll genuinely see the strength in that moral conviction, and perhaps they find her, but then wonder why she's dull and uninspired. This may not universally be the case - and with the argument of how preciously rare "quality women" really are in mind - it's generally observed that women who also proclaim higher moral character also tend to be the most inhibited. You could also argue that those morals prompt that inhibition, but equally say that her inhibition inspired her professed morality.
Wha,..? Where's the quick hit filler post from IQQI? Oh OK, I'll do it for her, "Great post VU, glad to see there's someone here who still gets it." :yes:
A rich man doesn't need to tell you he's rich. You can detect it in his dress, his attitude, his mindset, his mannerisms, etc. It's the guy who overtly proclaims "I'm so ƒucking rich,.." followed by a list of qualifiers who we suspect of being insecure about that actual wealth. The same follows for morality; it's the people who wear it on their sleeve and advise others to do so too who we doubt first. Why is it so important to this guy to broadcast himself as being so ethical?Interceptor said:
The problem with this concept is that morality needs to be appreciated for it to really be validated, but in advertising one's own moral values he paints a target on himself. Fishing for that appreciation turns virtue into vanity. This then becomes further complicated when they seek like qualities in women. They want a woman who'll genuinely see the strength in that moral conviction, and perhaps they find her, but then wonder why she's dull and uninspired. This may not universally be the case - and with the argument of how preciously rare "quality women" really are in mind - it's generally observed that women who also proclaim higher moral character also tend to be the most inhibited. You could also argue that those morals prompt that inhibition, but equally say that her inhibition inspired her professed morality.
Luthor Rex
Master Don Juan
:yes:Victory Unlimited said:
Whatever you can't say "no" to is your master, and you are its slave.
:yes:
iqqi
Master Don Juan
Victory Unlimited said:
Great post, VU.
I don't know who could possibly disagree with the actual points you made, but I guess some will just throw stray insults and comments your way instead of addressing what you said. I think that you should make that into a separate thread, for the novices here who haven't looked into this thread.
Wisdom.
WestCoaster
Master Don Juan
- Joined
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My previous post wasn't to bash morality -- I'm a pretty moral person -- it's the concept that religion, righteousness, and frankly oneitis and AFCism being shoved down our throats. That's what I read between the lines.
Props to many posters here, especially Victory's latest one.
I've seen so many of my friends build their lives around one certain ideal, and it's usually a woman. I've been the best man or groomsman in marriages I knew were destined for failure because the man had foresaken a career, interests/hobbies, travel, living a life, for a woman who was supposed to complete his life. When that failed, they are blindsided and empty. (A current one, living in his office, wife cleaned him out, house foreclosed ... he's AFCing on the internet with a gal he's never met.)
Going back to the AFC theme. I think the idea of men who have options, who date many women, or who live life not in an immoral way but by their own rules, truly scares people. Look at the media, even the government started a marriage act, started a buy a house program for married people, they come out with studies that say single people die young. Men on TV and in the media who are single or at least married and not AFC are ridiculed or at least not shown as real men. Watch any commerical and the man is a buffoon.
And just what "path is laid out before us" anyway? I know what it is. It's the AFC path that our lead poster wants us to go down, and that society wants us to walk on. Sorry, I've done that and it didn't pay off.
Props to many posters here, especially Victory's latest one.
I've seen so many of my friends build their lives around one certain ideal, and it's usually a woman. I've been the best man or groomsman in marriages I knew were destined for failure because the man had foresaken a career, interests/hobbies, travel, living a life, for a woman who was supposed to complete his life. When that failed, they are blindsided and empty. (A current one, living in his office, wife cleaned him out, house foreclosed ... he's AFCing on the internet with a gal he's never met.)
Going back to the AFC theme. I think the idea of men who have options, who date many women, or who live life not in an immoral way but by their own rules, truly scares people. Look at the media, even the government started a marriage act, started a buy a house program for married people, they come out with studies that say single people die young. Men on TV and in the media who are single or at least married and not AFC are ridiculed or at least not shown as real men. Watch any commerical and the man is a buffoon.
And just what "path is laid out before us" anyway? I know what it is. It's the AFC path that our lead poster wants us to go down, and that society wants us to walk on. Sorry, I've done that and it didn't pay off.
Of course they do. It threatens the very fabric of society. If we don't have all of these "sacrificial lambs" out there to "do the right thing", society as we know it continues into the freefall.WestCoaster said:
That was my question too. The "path" that society lays out for you turns you into a spineless beta male, a cog in the wheel of the machine.
Yep, you are either an angel or a devil, in the world of black and white in which the moralists believe.samspade said:
I'm probably a hell of a lot more "moral" than the average person, but I have no delusions as to my "higher self" being in complete control all of my biological urges, nor do I WANT it to. There is a reason why we have the internal drives that we do. It is to ensure our survival.
Interceptor
Master Don Juan
Some good points here.Rollo Tomassi said:
But what does that have to do with my specific post you quoted?
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Interceptor
Master Don Juan
Westcoaster wrote:
And just what "path is laid out before us" anyway? I know what it is. It's the AFC path that our lead poster wants us to go down, and that society wants us to walk on. Sorry, I've done that and it didn't pay off.
Lefty Loosey wrote:
It's time for real men to stand up for morality and good old-fashioned values. If that means being celibate in protest, so be it. Men are no longer going to have sex with married women, we're no longer going to cheat, and we're not going to deceive.
Be reclusive if necessary, be rocks, be men and be proud of yourselves. There's a certain peace that comes over all of us when we realize our actions do not hurt others. We feel it because we've done right. If we want our women to be moral, we have to set the example; it's our job as men to do so.
Westcoaster, while I dont agree with some of the verbatim statements by Lefty, I do agree with the Intent to truly help men be fulfilled by lasting, durable things that can offer lasting happiness and peace of mind.
(However, we have to acknowledge that different people have different views on what is happiness and what can make one happy, and same goes for being fulfilled. But since we're all humans, we all have the same Needs. And some people dont really value or even know just what is peace of mind. So no wonder there can be so much miscommunication, and misunderstaning.)
However, you seem to know from personal experience how these concepts 'did not pay off' for you.
I was wondering if you could elaborate on how these things Lefty is talking about, which I emphasized (hopefully Im getting the gist of what is being implied), which you disagree with and how it 'didnt pay off'.
Didnt pay off in getting , achieving, or being what exactly?
And just what "path is laid out before us" anyway? I know what it is. It's the AFC path that our lead poster wants us to go down, and that society wants us to walk on. Sorry, I've done that and it didn't pay off.
Lefty Loosey wrote:
It's time for real men to stand up for morality and good old-fashioned values. If that means being celibate in protest, so be it. Men are no longer going to have sex with married women, we're no longer going to cheat, and we're not going to deceive.
Be reclusive if necessary, be rocks, be men and be proud of yourselves. There's a certain peace that comes over all of us when we realize our actions do not hurt others. We feel it because we've done right. If we want our women to be moral, we have to set the example; it's our job as men to do so.
Westcoaster, while I dont agree with some of the verbatim statements by Lefty, I do agree with the Intent to truly help men be fulfilled by lasting, durable things that can offer lasting happiness and peace of mind.
(However, we have to acknowledge that different people have different views on what is happiness and what can make one happy, and same goes for being fulfilled. But since we're all humans, we all have the same Needs. And some people dont really value or even know just what is peace of mind. So no wonder there can be so much miscommunication, and misunderstaning.)
However, you seem to know from personal experience how these concepts 'did not pay off' for you.
I was wondering if you could elaborate on how these things Lefty is talking about, which I emphasized (hopefully Im getting the gist of what is being implied), which you disagree with and how it 'didnt pay off'.
Didnt pay off in getting , achieving, or being what exactly?
Men frequently err by talking too much. They often monopolize conversations, droning on and on about topics that bore women to tears. They think they're impressing the women when, in reality, they're depressing the women.
Quote taken from The SoSuave Guide to Women and Dating, which you can read for FREE.
Interceptor
Master Don Juan
This is a great post.samspade said:
iqqi
Master Don Juan
Do you think that maybe that was on purpose?Tazman said:
:crazy:
