We are not doing a good job....

[Warrior74]

I barely want my own kid let alone someone else's.

I've been going back and forth with a girl regarding this. She'd be more than willing to help raise another guy's kid and doesn't "get" it that there's a huge difference between my OWN kid and someone else's. She says she'd love the guy's children just the same and i believe her because she's totally in love with her best friend's children almost as if they are her own. I merely tolerate other's children and feel zero attachment. I don't even feel much for my one and only nephew. I just accept this as mostly a gender difference and don't really understand how she can do that.

I'm not a kid person at all. They're not all that interesting and they all do the same stuff. It's cute for 2 minutes then it's just repetitive and annoying the stuff they do. It's one thing to have fun shaping my own child knowing that he's half me, and quite another thing to even be around other people's kids.

And i'm not going to be shamed by iqqi because of how men tend to be. We're built to spread our dna and there's probably a good reason why a lot of us don't/can't really feel attachment to children not our own. Women can far more easily do so i'd assume because in little caveman "villages" they'd stay at home as a community helping take care of all the kids while the men went out. Yeah i made that all up.

lol. spoken like a true non-father. just wait....

 

[NewMan]

Hold wait a minute, I must break forum rules and put my two cents in this. In the most cynical sense, in the most self-interested view, any effort for other people is just a waste of time and energy. However, should every action done should just be measured but how much it just help oneself? Should life just be about winning as much as possible for the self? Everyone on this forum can agree that self-sacrafice in the thinking that it will make gains especially developed from the thinking of making loss into a virtue is AFC. However, I must contest in the idea that putting energy in helping in your fellow man as just "AFC."

Helping people and raising someone else's kids are 2 different things. I don't think anyone is against helping anyone who's less fortunate than oneself, but accepting in total the responsibility to raise someone else's kids is a different ball game altogether. The resources - and I'm not really talking about cash here, although that as well becomes a factor - you spend on raising another's kids, is less that you can spend on your own.

The whole argument about raising "another man's seed" is just pure stupidity.

You are raising and shaping a person. Not a seed, or DNA.



And when they brought that sh!t up, I too thought about Karma's mentoring the younger man threads. lol. Why would you waste your wisdom on another man's seed?

Said by a chick, this is understandable. The whole notion of wet nurses has been around a long time - when kids died, they gave them to another woman to raise - doesn't work that way with men.

Men do not nurture - they lead, provide, disipline and teach. The bond between father and child is the gene's - knowing that your providing and protecting your own.

Now call me an AFC, but some of the best time spend in the past years in doing good works volunteering and helping others. I remember the time spent helping others in food pantry, the time spent tutoring others in math, and the time spent volunteering my time to events designed for helping others.

I remember the help I received from a man who guided me through the college application proccess and now I take the time trying to do the same (and he is still doing that for other students). I remember friends who devoted time in program very similar to the boys and girls program trying to help little kids, and they are very cool, intellegent, and fun people I have ever met. They are ambitious, informed people (success with women varies, but volunteering does not equal AFC, that's for sure). I remember one of the most DJ men I have ever met (I mean he is financially successful, in great fitness, have incredibilly interesting hobbies (I mean really cool), a beautiful wife, well-behaved children, and incredibly insightful in the world and politics) and he put a huge investment of his own money into developing a program to help underprivelliage kids have a place to go after school and actually have a structure that hopefully bring a better future than without (which many in their neighborhoold they don't go very far). Should I see all those people the man who helped me get into a good college, all those volunteering friends, the DJ man as AFCs?

Every act you perform is a selfish act. That goes for everyone. No if's and's or but's.

 

[Phyzzle]

I'm just curious -- what do you guys "win" if you pass on your own genes?

It is not I who wins, but the world. I owe it to humankind to see to it that DNA of my caliber is passed on.
--------------------------------------
I don't think anyone here is completely against taking care of someone else's kids (except maybe kontrollerx). Rather, people here would agree that:

1. It is a bad trade to take care of someone else's kids for the sole purpose of having a relationship with a woman. You have to sincerely want to adopt children. Most men, deep down, don't really have a desire to adopt children. But they convince themselves of this when presented with easy intimacy.

2. It is a bad thing for a man to be forced to choose between either being a mack in High School and getting a girl pregnant then, or simply giving up on having a family fully of his own. There are many communities where those are essentially the only two choices.

3. This will naturally lead to resentment from professional men who waited a reasonable time to start a family, only to find that it may not be possible, demographically. Hence the whining.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

These were good:

Is adopting a poor child from a third world nation AFC? Is the big brothers/ big sisters program AFC?

I'm going to address these from the point of view of a single man in contrast with dating/LTR a single mother. This is the real comparison, and shocking as this may sound I don't think either is AFC. In fact I'd say that for a single man these aspirations are ennobling. Why? Because there is no presumption of sexual exchange for his provisioning. You could argue that a man's base motivation is to socially "prove" he's father material to women in general, but these situation imply varying degrees of actual commitment.

Wanting to be a Father / Positive male role model is a commendable desire, but it's the conditions and motivations for it that make it AFC or DJ. I'd have more respect for the Big Brother/Mentor than the guy trying to convince me how great his GFs children are.

 

[NewMan]

These were good:


Quote:
Is adopting a poor child from a third world nation AFC? Is the big brothers/ big sisters program AFC?




I'm going to address these from the point of view of a single man in contrast with dating/LTR a single mother. This is the real comparison, and shocking as this may sound I don't think either is AFC. In fact I'd say that for a single man these aspirations are ennobling. Why? Because there is no presumption of sexual exchange for his provisioning. You could argue that a man's base motivation is to socially "prove" he's father material to women in general, but these situation imply varying degrees of actual commitment.

I think we can all agree however, that there is a huge difference in adopting when compared to being a big brother.

A single guy is unlikely to adopt - married more likely.

A single guy would be a big brother - and the chance to meet like available women doing the same is the prize.

 

[Jeffst1980]

Nobody becomes a Big Brother to mack chicks. There are plenty of better suited venues for that, even among charitable organizations...

I agree with Rollo that your motivations are what counts. If you're doing something you don't believe in just to impress a woman, that's bad. If you're willing to take on kids you don't want just to have sex with a single mom, that's bad, too. However, if you're interested in a single mom and the thought of raising someone else's kids doesn't bother you at all, I say go for it. It's not AFC, so long as it's done from a position of choice rather than need. THIS is why I stay away from absolutes.

I guess the problem is that many guys get involved with a single mom b/c of a lack of options, and then use the "nobility" argument to justify it to themselves.

 

[frivolousz21]

some of the crap posted in here is ridiculous and unreal.

almost sounds like getting AIDS would be better than god forbid dating a nice single mother.

good lord.

 

[Scaramouche]

Hmm...Jophils post seems to have gone unregarded,I feel he has been bitten as I have,and offers a sensible suggestion,you must know what you are taking on...If you are getting involved with such a Lady,just try and stay away from the Kids....Little girls are a definite No No....My experience,mixed signals "lets all have a lovely picnic"! well be very careful,if it is successful,rarely the case,then often the Lady resents and feels threatened by any bonds that develop....Very complicated,and unless you are pushed into it...Dangerous....

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear Frivolous.....You are 25...the advice tendered here is in good faith,real life experiences....Yes at your age the Ladies will have very young children,and perhaps there is some hope for bonding with male children,and a meaningful long term relationship...but there are so many girls out there....Mate,she will be nice much nicer than the other girls your age,sexually experienced,tempting, but she has a vested interest get tied up and you will have a long time to regret it...

 

[Scaramouche]

What do you guys gain from passing on your DNA.....Well the only footprint you leave on this planet is in your genes...Steven Hawking suggested we are just repositories for our genes,hard to argue it...You have a responsibility to your ancestors to pass on their legacy to you...Without being Eugenic this would preclude passing on mutant cells,and diseases like Huntingdons....Whether you are creationist or Evolutionist...The imperative is Spread your seed...And widely...

 

[Yahooey]

There are many traps to avoid with single moms and this is what we should be posting about. A blanket rejection is unjustified. As some of the posters mentioned, as you get older they are a fact of life.

I am also wary of a woman that is 35+ and not a mom. A lot of these are not good LTR material - their status is not an accident. The issues may be different but you still need to sort out the garbage. I actually find qualifying single-moms easier because you can tell a lot about the person based on the way they are raising their children.

My basic rules are:
- avoid the daddy shoppers. Warning sign: why don't you take little x to the movies so that you two can bond (run, fast, very fast!). The expectations around the relationship with her kids should be the same as those to a friends' kids - nothing more.
- avoid the trailer moms. Warning sign: let's you sleep over on first night and introduces you as Uncle Yahooey at breakfast. I don't expect to see the kids unless it is sure it is more than a ONS and I am just a friend (and never at the breakfast table) until it is established that the relationship is serious.

The rest is about being a DJ in your choices and actions.

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear Humanist...Ayn Rand?....You draw a long Bow,as to Hawkings,Stone me,do you have to fall off a cliff to Know it Hurts?And Yeah sowing my seed with every Hooker would be far better for the Reservoir of genes on this earth than letting any Tom,**** or Harry impregnate them...

 

[thedeparted]

Listen, guys, it ain't Hawkings, it's Dawkins. Hawkings is the one who studied black holes, and advises humans to colonize outer space b/c we're gonna destroy earth. Dawkins wrote The Selfish Gene and sees animals as machines to propogate genes.

But of course, neither one's children amount to much next to their intellectual contributions.

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear Humanist,well thank you for your polite and considered reply.....Don't you think crediting Ayn Rand with change in community attitudes is being a bit cruel to her?I can understand the need for a lecturer in Philosophy to rationalise changes in community attitudes,but having read the Ayn Rand publications in the early sixties,can I say they certainly didn't seem to inspire many young people,they were far more interested with the Beatles,and VietNam,these books are not easy reading and I don't think outside University campuses many people did anything but put the books down and say Ho Hum..Rather like seeing a rooster standing alongside an egg and jumping to conclusions...Now Hawkings can I suggest he is more of a philosopher than Rand ever was,and he really does influence many opinion formers in Society..My turn to apologise I was being facetious to you,I was suggesting with falling off cliffs that because Hawkings has no children,doesn't mean he can't put informed ideas on the topic....Rather like saying,you don't have to have had a baby to be a gynacologist....I seem to be going against the tide,but if there is any more tangible footprint than your DNA that you leave to posterity please tell me...I will also go further and suggest that I believe DNA will be found to carry previous experience,as La Marques theories indicate....We are all unique if we die childless in some respects it is like burning an irreplacable book,rather sad really...

 

[jophil28]

Well said, Scaramouche.
However you did not explain the meaning of "Stone me "..
How about I try .
"Stone me" is an exclamatory statement in the Australian venacular.
Somewhat like "Holy Sh!T " or "Hot damn " in Nth America. It can also suggest that the person uttering it is stunned or confused by a preceding statement from another person. IT also can infer that the utterer is surpised or startled by some immediate event.
Perhaps it is an abbreviated variant of , "Well, stone the crows" -another old Australia saying, which is similar to "Well, I'll be a monkeys' uncle", sometimes truncated to , "Well, I'll be .." or "Well I'll be buggered ".
These are all phrases from our early colonial days which are still in frequent use by the older generations and in rural populations..

I am sure that it would be fine with all of us Down Under if you guys over there wanted to use some of these sayings occasionally. After all ,you did adopt "G'Day " and the "NO worries " ( and in revenge we opened 7 Eleven stores ) so I seen no problem there.

 

[BadsnakeUK]

OK, I've just had to delete a big rant and start again in a more civilised way. I was going to write some pretty strong stuff because a lot of the views on this thread scare the hell out of me.

Firslty let me state I wouldn't date a single mum unless she was, as others have said, head and shoulders above every other woman I knew. This isn't down to some bizarre interpretation of evolutionary theory but because I don't have the time, resources or inclination to accommodate any child into my life right now. I also don't feel like I would be a good role model for a child and so couldn't, in good conscience, try to take up this position.

Secondly, I want to ask where is the compassion, the humanity, about some of you people? Yes, evolutionary biology has a role to play. I have a biology degree and I know about this stuff. It is important, but by the standards some of you are mentioning we should be like male lions that kill all the cubs in the pride when they take it over. Hey, its not our offspring - who cares? See a child starving to death on the street - not my DNA mate, not my problem! This is not about Darwin or Dawkins or any other theory - this is about basic human decency.

Also, please stop using terminolgy like AFC for things like the big brother program. In fact the application of it in this sense means only one thing: that you need to get away from this site for while, forget about women for a while, and spend some time in the real world. People do things for each other, they help each other out. This is just basc human kindness and is a very good thing. Yes we are animals, but we are more than animals as well.

AFC is just an acronym designed to convey the idea of a man who supplicates to get into a woman's pants. When you start seeing the whole world through the lens of the 'community' you are becoming a very narrow and fvcked up individual. Go read The Game again, and look at Neil Strauss' take on social robots. Go for a walk, get some fresh air and just relax.

I'm not suggsting for a minute that people go out and date single mothers without thinking long and hard about the consequences, but all this evolutionary biology stuff must be put in the appropriate place, not allowed to rule your life.. You are supposed to be here to become a better person, which involves growth physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. Look at the bigger picture.

P.S. Before you all flame me, lets get the obvious ones sorted out. No, I'm not a woman, gay, AFC or dating a single mother.

 

[IronStar]

We are all unique if we die childless in some respects it is like burning an irreplacable book,rather sad really...

Well said sir.

I totally respect individuals whom recognise that, for them, right now, parenthood isnt an option, but for some people, its more about what having a child would take from them & their lives, and thats kind of a sad reflection on todays society. A lot of people's frustrations these days are in believing they can have it all, & in holding out for that ideal, they end up with nothing.

Personally, I wouldnt have an issue with dating a single mother (having being raised by a step father myself) as long as she wanted children with me too. I've been having a look at the whole internet dating thing, its not funny as to how many women tick the 'dont want children' box in their profiles.

I'm in my forties, so women with kids is going to be a fact of life, if your in your twenties or early thirties, I'd have to wonder why you'd want to date single mothers though. Its not an ideal situation, for you or for her.

 

[penkitten]

why is it that everyone gets all excited and offended (at the same time) when ayn rand's name is mentioned?

 

[Phyzzle]

why is it that everyone gets all excited and offended (at the same time) when ayn rand's name is mentioned?

You wouldn't understand. You lack the testosterone.

Reading her books is like living in a world where nothing but romantic comedies and sitcoms exist, and then watching the movie 300. People who like her will strive to associate her ideas with movements they like.

I will also go further and suggest that I believe DNA will be found to carry previous experience,as La Marques theories indicate.

You mean Lamarck? Interesting.

Well, stone the crows" -another old Australia saying, which is similar to "Well, I'll be a monkeys' uncle", sometimes truncated to , "Well, I'll be .." or "Well I'll be buggered ".
These are all phrases from our early colonial days which are still in frequent use by the older generations and in rural populations.

Around here, it's "Well fukk me sideways and paint me pink."

 

[tihash]

Some of the older guys (and I am 31) have said things along the lines of when you hit a certain age, late thirties or forties, you are pretty much stuck with single moms.

Just wondering... what happened to the PUA/DJ attitiude of you can have whatever you want, don't settle, etc etc? I know it is harder as we age, but I've known great girls (no kids, very good looking, etc) in their mid or late 20's date men in their late 30's or up to early 40s, and I have known great girls pushing 30 or hitting 31 or 32 who date guys in their 40's unabashedly.

I am no master DJ or anything, but please don't think you have to date a woman with baggage (whether that is a kid, emotional problems, etc) just because you are in your 30s or 40s. Work hard at meeting chicks, and the success will eventually follow.