ultimate lost theory (super long)

[joekerr31]

The whole "It's all a dream/hallucination/mental breakdown" thing has been played out -- from "The Wizard of Oz" to "Saint Elsewhere" to "Newhart" to the aforementioned "Identity", and I don't think that such an innovative series as "Lost" will end with such an unoriginal, cliche ending.

i agree.

fyi, henry gale (the name Ben uses when he was captured by the losties) was dorothy's uncle in the Wizard of Oz (you probably knew that, just stating for other readers). which is yet more hinting that all of this is a big con / delusion.

i myself hope my theory is wrong and they come up with some kind of truly genuine, plausible and creative ending.

but all the 'clues' they are dropping so far all point to the story we are watching being a big con and most of it is in Jacob's head.

 

[joekerr31]

I like that you were able to make connections with literary and biblical references, especially that Jacob is the father of Ben.

Interesting conundrum.

Raises a lot of interesting sidebars brother.

heres the thing. i dont really care if im right. i dont mind being wrong. so id love it if people had any alternative explanations for the various 'coincedences' that i've mentioned.

if i had to pick two out of the bunch it would be the fact that all the main characters have abadonment issues in their life that are very similar to Ben's. and the second that ben's mother died during child birth and surprise surprise, all the women on the island die from being pregnant.

i mean, i'd love any kind of theory that even comes close to explaining these totally improbably coincidences.

any thoughts guy?

 

[Giovanni Casanova]

they have ruled out time travel - so desmond going back in time did not happen. which basically rules out a lot of the science explanations.

http://tviv.org/Lost/Flashes_Before_Your_Eyes#Mysteries

Is Desmond really going back and forth in time, or is the island giving him that experience?

* Answer: On the February 20, 2007 Official Lost Podcast, Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof confirmed that Desmond traveled back in time and that it wasn't a dream.

 

[Giovanni Casanova]

fyi, henry gale (the name Ben uses when he was captured by the losties) was dorothy's uncle in the Wizard of Oz (you probably knew that, just stating for other readers). which is yet more hinting that all of this is a big con / delusion.

I think rather than hinting at anything, it's just the way that the producers name the characters.

Charlotte Lewis = CS Lewis (Narnia author)
John Locke = John Locke (political philosopher)
Jack Shepherd = Shepherd (leader of the flock)
Miles Srohm = Maelstrom (powerful whirlpool)
Danielle Rouseeau = Jean-Jacques Rousseau (political philosopher)
Jacob = Jacob, son of Isaac (Biblical figure)
Benjamin Linus = Benjamin, son of Jacob (Biblical figure)
Thomas Sawyer aka James Ford = Tom Sawyer (Mark Twain juvenile con artist)

Etc.

I'm certain there are others, but that's all off the top of my head right now.

 

[Ever onward]

i mean, i'd love any kind of theory that even comes close to explaining these totally improbably coincidences.

any thoughts guy?

You've come up with the best idea(s) so far that connects all the characters and coincidences.

There is some special property to the Island and WE ALL KNOW IT! (My Locke impression)

But that doesn't explain all of the coincidences and connections that occur off the Island as you've pointed out Joekerr.

1. The connection between the characters

2. The numbers

3. The alternate 815 crash site


So what brought them all to the Island? They each had some personal reason for being on Flight 815. In Season 1. Locke said the Island brought them all there for a reason. I could see that happening if they all arrived in their own due time but that wasn't the case. All of their personal issues that put them on 815 occurred at the same time and the plane passed over the Island just when Desmond happened to be NOT pushing the button in the Hatch and that caused the plane to crash.

Like you said Joekerr, something bigger than the Island has to be at play here.

1. God?

2. Fate?

3. Virtual Reality? (debunked)

4. MP (?)

5. Someone powerful and well connected off the Island pulling the strings. I've always been suspicious of Penny's father.

I myself have always leaned towards the Fate explanation. I know that doesn't give a scientific explanation but it does seem to fit with what Locke was driving at in Season 1. Science vs. Fate. Light vs. Dark (such as when he played backgammon with Walt on the beach or when the skeletons of 'Adam and Eve' were discovered with light and dark stones).

 

[joekerr31]

http://tviv.org/Lost/Flashes_Before_Your_Eyes#Mysteries

thanks for this. so he didn't go back in time, but rather his life flashed before his eyes - i'll buy that as a reason for no time travel being valid.

but... i suppose when he had this 'flash' his mind created the picture of the jewlery store lady with the monk. that his mind created a reference to charlie and used the 'hieronymus' on charlie's sign. etc.

i mean, i'll buy it, but its taking us right back to the notion that much of the craziness we are seeing is actually in the characters heads.

i mean, would not a flashback where in desmond lived out is past DIFFERENTLY than he actually did count more as a hallucination?! your life flashing before your eyes would entail life events you actually lived. if you start changing those life events, then it becomes more of a hallucination.

moreover, having a flash back of your life wouldn't then embue you with the power to see the future (which is what happened with desmond regarding charlie). and if desmond has the power to see the future this is either a form of time travel or hallucinations.

im telling ya, these guys have basically put together every single type of story into one (monsters, psychics, science experiments, human drama, etc.). there will be no way to explain all this in the end. even fate will fall short because fate doesn't explain all the metaphysical elements like desmonds ability to see the future, the purple sky when he didnt press the button, walt appearing to the losties (unless walt is a hallucination, no way thats been debunked ) etc.

 

[joekerr31]

heres another fact to chew on.

they brought juliette over 3 years ago. they also have the ability to travel back and forth with the real world (i mean, after all, thats where they got juliette). and yet, despite this, they didn't bring over a couple of mac's? they didn't bring over some lcd monitors?

oh wait, now i remember, 'jacob hates technology'. hahahah. give me a break. its ok to use computers from the 1970s that have less power in them than calculators, but not ok to bring over a few laptops (but walkie talkies are ok).

makes absolutely zero sense.

oh and heres another thing. you'd think you'd see some food from our time as well. they can't bring over some pop tarts on the submarine? instead they are content to eat canned slop from the 1970s?

give me a break

im telling ya, the reason there is no new technology, or new food, is because jacob can only create this delusion based on what he knows.

i mean in all the flash forwards have we ever seen someone using a laptop?

now the GPS phone seems like a flaw in my theory (after all, how could he imagine such a thing). which leads me to the explanation that someone came to the island. Jacob found the GPS phone and then encorporated it into his fantasy.

the only gap i can think of is the cars in flash forward. they've probably shown some cars that are new and jacob wouldn't be able to imagine that.

BUT, none actually come to mind (someone might be able to help me here). Jack drives an old beat up jeep (kind of odd for a doctor to drive don't you think?). Locke drives an old beat up truck and an old beatle.

i don't know guys, im trying to disprove my own theory, but im having a hard time.

 

[joekerr31]

oh wait, kate arrives at her trial in a limo and i think it was a pretty newish looking one. also sun got into a new car.

hmmmm. this is the first kink in my theory. although it could be partly be explained with something as simple as him finding a car magazine where he found the GPS phone.

this show is totally f*cked.

i think these guys are going to be lynched when the show ends.

 

[Ever onward]

i mean in all the flash forwards have we ever seen someone using a laptop?

In Jack's flash-forward he uses a Razor. Not a laptop but still pretty new technology.

What about Red Sox winning the pennant in 2004? I'm not a baseball fan but I'm pretty sure that is accurate. If your theory holds water then Ben's (or Jacob's) last contact with the outside world would have to be at least that recent.

 

[Ever onward]

this show is totally f*cked.

i think these guys are going to be lynched when the show ends.

It's either complete nonsense or completely brilliant.

 

[joekerr31]

In Jack's flash-forward he uses a Razor. Not a laptop but still pretty new technology.

What about Red Sox winning the pennant in 2004? I'm not a baseball fan but I'm pretty sure that is accurate. If your theory holds water then Ben's (or Jacob's) last contact with the outside world would have to be at least that recent.

his ability to imagine newer events is a MAJOR kink in my theory. it would mean that Jacob is no longer on the island, has been exposed to the modern world, and has incorporated these things into his delusion.

or alternatively, there are some people shipwrecked on the island (not a plane crash, a shipwreck - jacob would merely choose to believe it was a plane crash) and he's incorporated information of the modern world into his delusion. so maybe some of the peopel are real, some are made up and we are seeing all of them through his eyes and this crazy delusion he's having.

but none the less, the flash forwards and use of modern products definitely casts doubt on the feasiblility of my theory.

but its still not that hard to imagine that if he was alone on the island for all those years and then was rescued that we are dealing with a delusion that is rooted mostly in the past, but which also takes into account the modern world.

or it could turn out that the 'hostiles' were his delusion when he was on the island, that the losties are all people related to his modern environment (ie. asylum. hurly another patient, libby the shrink, jack the doctor, locke someone in a wheel chair, etc.), and that he simply took all these people and inserted them onto the island.

but i agree, we get overly dependent on this all being in his head in that case.

 

[joekerr31]

It's either complete nonsense or completely brilliant.

well i think the vast majority of the fans are expecting and will demand that the science be real and that there be an explanation behind it.

if smokie ends up not being real (which is hard since he killed Eko) people are going to be furious.

we have to remember, if they've painted themselves into a corner they would not tell us. way to much advertising dollars are at stake for ABC. and no matter how much we all think they love their own show, in the real world money drives behavior.

so if they have screwed the pouch they would never admit to it.

i have a feeling the series is going to have a boat load of unexplained elements to it in the end that will upset a lot of people.

i hope im wrong though and that they know what they are doing. if everything ends up being consistent with their end resolution they will be worthy of the word genuis.

 

[Ever onward]

but its still not that hard to imagine that if he was alone on the island for all those years and then was rescued that we are dealing with a delusion that is rooted mostly in the past, but which also takes into account the modern world.

Here's some support for your theory. The alternate crash site of Oceanic 815. Maybe Flight 815 actually did crash in the Indian Ocean as opposed to the South Pacific. Jacob since he is off the Island now (but still living in his fantasy world) hears of the crash and incorporates it into his delusions about his time on the Island.

However, once the crash site is discovered in the ocean Ben hears about it on the news since he is a personalty that can leave the Island. This creates cognitive dissonance because in Jacob's fantasy world Flight 815 crashed on the Island. Therefore to overcome the dissonance the other personalities are created: Miles, Daniel, Charlotte, Naomi and the pilot (name?) enter his delusion to try to kill Ben and keep the fantasy world going.

What do you think?

 

[joekerr31]

wait wait wait....

ok, im goign to pull a rabbit out of my *ss here.

what if jacob was left on the island. developed MPs. gets rescued (this might be the 'incident' they refer to). now is sitting in some assylum (kind of like hurly always is).

while in the assylum he sees the tv. he hears about flight 815. he may have also heard about desmond (who also would have made the news for being lost at sea). we can't be sure how kelvin got to the island or whether he made the news or not.

but even i will admit, this is now officially all in one characters mind at this point. yes, the island is still real, dharma is still real, yes the plane did crash, yes desmond was lost at sea, ALL that would still be real. BUT the real story would be in jacob's head.

i give up. Lost wins. my theory has a Major flaw that can't be resolved.

 

[Ever onward]

while in the assylum he sees the tv. he hears about flight 815. he may have also heard about desmond (who also would have made the news for being lost at sea). we can't be sure how kelvin got to the island or whether he made the news or not.

Looks like we were both following the same train of thought there...lol

 

[joekerr31]

Looks like we were both following the same train of thought there...lol

im still thinking about your other post and will respond when i've thought it through.

while my theory seems to have been sunk, here's an interesting though that saves it (although it would be considered a cheat)....

the inconsistencies / implausibilities could be the answer to the show. if Jacob is in 'therapy' and they are trying to bring him back to 'reality' (if he's delusional from years of being on the island 'lost') .... then maybe one of the ways they will do that is by exposing him to the inconsistencies in his delusion.

i could see it now...

shrink: can you tell me Jacob how flight 815 crashed in two seperate locations?
Jacob: (silent)
shrink: ok, thats enough for today. we'll pick this up tomorrow.

but like i say, fans would go crazy for the story to work out like this. its a total cheat.

it definitely allows them to iron out any wrinkles by actually making the inconsistencies something that was intentional. i can just see the producers saying 'we thought at some point people would figure out that not everything they were seeing could possibly be true.'

 

[Giovanni Casanova]

thanks for this. so he didn't go back in time, but rather his life flashed before his eyes - i'll buy that as a reason for no time travel being valid.

Desmond DID travel back in time, and the producers confirmed it.

 

[joekerr31]

haha ok just some crazy thoughts for fun...

if he was in an asylum, character traits that could be playing out...

siyad - is a torturer. this could spawn out of electroshock therapy
jack - alcoholic. this could spawn out of the drugs hes given
hurly - well hurley would repesent his predicament of being in the asylum. also hurly winning the lottery and it being the worst thing that ever happened to him could be the equivalent of Jacob being rescued and ending up in an assylum.

perhaps he hates being in the assylum and the modern world and desperately wants to go back to the island. this explains his hate of technology, ben and locke's desire not to leave the island.

plus the show has a theme of group therapy. both with jack's father and with locke. and in a sense the losties are going through group therapy of a sort.

hehe - i absolutely hate how stuff that isn't going to be a part of the answer makes sense.

i wish i had never thought up this MP disorder theory :rock:

 

[joekerr31]

Desmond DID travel back in time, and the producers confirmed it.

argh now im really confused. the other link you sent me said that time travel was NOT a part of the show and that producers had confirmed it was not.

 

[Ever onward]

hehe - i absolutely hate how stuff that isn't going to be a part of the answer makes sense.

Exactly! Your theory is one of the best I've ever heard and makes sense given all of the inconsistencies. But you're right that it won't be a part of the answer because as Gio has said it was done before with the movie Identity. And of course the producers said it wouldn't 'all' take place in the head of one of the characters.