Ugh, I don't know what to do next with this chick

[DonJuanna]

Igetit, the issue I have with the advice you and others are giving is that you are conflating two issues:
1. How he can get the girl interested in him
2. How he can show her that he's interested in her

For example, you wrote:

He should get the attraction established FIRST,to see if she's attracted to him as he is to her

To me, the phrase "establishing attraction" suggests the guy is working to create/cultivate/amplify the girl's attraction, not just "seeing" if it's there.

So when you say things like:

Tell her you like the way she looks in something she's wearing...
Tell her YOU WANT to see her...
Use sexual innuendo.
Tell her not to be sure and not to wear a lot of makeup on your next date with her because you don't want to spend the whole date wiping lipstick off your face.

See what I mean? Be flirty/sexual like that.

What I think is, "Are these actions meant to make the girl attracted to him, enable him to judge her attraction through her responses, or a combination of the two?" You seem to be saying that the purpose of these things is to judge her attraction to him from her response. But then you say:

EMOTIONALLY,SHE has to FEEL that there is a DIFFERENCE between you and her,and that can ONLY BE DONE through you being sexual.

And that suggests that the purpose of being flirty/sexual is to create the attraction, not confirm it.

Look, I just think that because the girl is shy, young, probably inexperienced, he should spend more time buttering her up before he makes a move. Maxtro's in agreement with you, enough time has passed.

 

[Igetit!]

Igetit, the issue I have with the advice you and others are giving is that you are conflating two issues:
1. How he can get the girl interested in him
2. How he can show her that he's interested in her

As for #2,he simply needs to make his interest CLEARLY KNOWN by doing the things I suggested.

There are only 3 WAYS that a woman responds to a guy who shows sexual interest in her....

1)She shows sexual interest back
2)She rejects him
3)She puts him in the friendzone (which is another form of rejection).


One of these three things should have ALREADY HAPPENED by now. And if it hasn't then that means that MAXTRO hasn't been doing his job of making his interest clearly known.


In fact,if Maxtro would have done this already,this thread wouldn't be necessary. It's titled,"I don't know what to do next".

Well if she shows interest back,you know what to do,and if she rejects you,you know what to do.



He doesn't know what to do,because HE hasn't been clear about what HE wants.




I want to know upfront where a girl's head's at concerning her interest in me.

And the way to do that is to be clear about my intentions.



And as for #1,he simply needs to demonstrate attractive qualities.

Be bold,outgoing,confident,playful,and flirtatious.


There's no guarantee that he'll win her over,but the odds of gaining her interest will definately go up.

To me, the phrase "establishing attraction" suggests the guy is working to create/cultivate/amplify the girl's attraction, not just "seeing" if it's there.

Well to me,there's no such thing as "seeing if it's there".

In my opnion,it's ALWAYS THERE.


To me,attraction is like a light switch in a room. There's no "seeing if it's there",it IS there.


Whether or not you flip that switch is a different story,but the switch IS THERE.



Do you think a guy can be attracted to a 350 lb. woman,with short hair,who's flat-chested,and has her upper teeth missing?



Believe it or not,he can be.



You can take that SAME 350lb. woman and have her exercise or get ly-po to lose all the weight,have her grow her hair out or get extentions,have her go to the dentist and get her teeth fixed,and have her get a breast implants.



Then this SAME WOMAN,who men were repelled by simply at the thought of looking at her,will have these same men drooling all over her.



It's the same woman as before,only now the guys FEEL ATTRACTION when they look at her,but the attraction that they now feel was present in them THE WHOLE TIME.


It was there when the woman was 350 pounds. She just couldn't "activate" it then.



She couldn't "turn them on"....but the "SWITCH" was still there.

Look, I just think that because the girl is shy, young, probably inexperienced, he should spend more time buttering her up before he makes a move.

And by "buttering her up",you mean focusing on things they have in common,i.e; the anime and comic books,etc.



Ok,so tell me...just how much time should he spend on this "buttering her up"?



As I'm typing this,it's April 20,2010...12:32 a.m.


The FIRST POST Maxtro made about this girl was on 3-17-10,over A MONTH AGO,in that first post,he said that he had been talking to her "for a couple of weeks".



So he had already been talking to the girl for a few weeks as of March 17th.


So if you put all the time together he's been talking to her,it should be somewhere around possibly 2+ months.



Two plus months,and she still needs to be "buttered up"?


No...I'm sorry,but he needs to get the lead out let her know where HE stands.

 

[DonJuanna]

Maxtro said that he's mostly talked to this girl in class, and hung out with her alone "a couple of times". If a couple of times means seven, then that's one thing. If it means 2 or 3, then I think it would be premature to... test the light switch, I suppose (I do like that metaphor). 2 months isn't a very long time when you're in school and preoccupied with exams and so on.

Igetit, I think that you and other guys on this board don't have enough faith in a woman's ability to tell if a guy is interested in her. If any single guy calls me up, wants to take me places on the weekend, etc, I assume that he has some degree of sexual interest in me. Isn't that reasonable?

Ok, I guess it's possible that this girl is wondering whether Maxtro likes her, and is wondering why he hasn't made a move yet, but I doubt it. A lot of it does come down to how much time they've actually spent alone together outside of class, and how frequent that contact has been. If they were hanging out in her dorm every night for a week, it would be a whole nother story than hanging out "a couple of times" over a two month time span.

How much time do I think Maxtro should spend buttering her up? I would say, until finals are over. Especially if he starts hanging out with her on a regular basis (as opposed to sporadic, as it has been so far), it would be much easier to transition things to a summer fling once she has more free time and the stress of schoolwork isn't there. She sounds like she's very focused on academics right now... another thing that might make the light switch harder to access.

 

[Igetit!]

Igetit, I think that you and other guys on this board don't have enough faith in a woman's ability to tell if a guy is interested in her.

No,I'm sure a woman can easily tell if a guy's interested in her,but it's HOW a guy shows his interest that will affect her interest level.


I could approach you,ask you your name and if you belong to anybody and tell you if not,then I WANT to see you.



Or I could be send a friend of mine over to you to tell you I like you.

Then when you turn around to see me,I'm all crotched behind a potted plant,waving at you.



My interest is apparent to you in both scenarios,but which one would YOU be most impressed by?


Which one of these two ways would you HONESTLY prefer to be approached?



I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.


The reason I'm trying to get Max to be upfront and show his interest NOW is because I KNOW it's the best thing to do,and also to avoid what he went through last year with another girl.



This situation he's in now is eeriely similiar to the one from last year.

From everything he's said so far,from all the time they've known each other,to their topics of conversations,to his lack of being sexual with her,it's ALL pointing to the friendzone....AGAIN.




Even though you (DonJuanna) and I disagree on some things,I think he's going to go with your suggestions,because they're easier to do and don't require risks.



He called my suggestions "ballsy",which means that they require "balls" to do,and he's right.



I HATE to see MAX go through this again,but it's his life and his decision to do.

 

[ThunderMaverick]

There are two types of attraction that I've seen in women throughout my life...

First one is...well attraction at first meeting. A girl is attracted to your looks and interior qualities from the outset. She WANTS you.

Second one is..the type of attraction that Don Juanna was talking about - the one that takes months to build. The issue of trust and really getting to know ones qualities over a span of time.

My deal is, if a girl isn't attracted to the qualities I show her over a date, a week, or hell, even a few hours - she's not worth waiting months for.


I've never met a woman alive who was worth waiting around for.

 

[drak_ool]

Maxtro,

are you in Japan at the moment? is this girl japanese?

 

[Maxtro]

Even though you (DonJuanna) and I disagree on some things,I think he's going to go with your suggestions,because they're easier to do and don't require risks.

He called my suggestions "ballsy",which means that they require "balls" to do,and he's right.

Her suggestions seem easy, but there is one problem, I've already done all of them. And I know that keeping on that level wouldn't lead to anything.

Not only did I call the comment you made ballsy, I also have no idea how to say something like that. Those sexually charged comments aren't a part of my thinking, not yet at least.

Ok, I guess it's possible that this girl is wondering whether Maxtro likes her, and is wondering why he hasn't made a move yet, but I doubt it. A lot of it does come down to how much time they've actually spent alone together outside of class, and how frequent that contact has been.

We've only hung out after class two times. There is no way I was going to try and make a move after the first meeting and after the second meeting the environment didn't feel right to make one. I'm not going to try and go for a first kiss as we're walking with people around us.

I made the mistaking of letting her walk with me to the bus stop instead of me walking her to her dorm room.

How much time do I think Maxtro should spend buttering her up? I would say, until finals are over. Especially if he starts hanging out with her on a regular basis (as opposed to sporadic, as it has been so far), it would be much easier to transition things to a summer fling once she has more free time and the stress of schoolwork isn't there. She sounds like she's very focused on academics right now... another thing that might make the light switch harder to access.

So far she's turned down seeing me on the weekend because of studying and she preemptively turned me down on Wednesday because she's studying. I don't know if it means she's low interest doesn't want to give me a chance or school is really busy to her. I'm going to try and make plans with her for this weekend. If she tries to turn be down because of studying, I'll say, "it's just a quick lunch." If she refuses that, I don't know...

There are two types of attraction that I've seen in women throughout my life...

First one is...well attraction at first meeting. A girl is attracted to your looks and interior qualities from the outset. She WANTS you.

Second one is..the type of attraction that Don Juanna was talking about - the one that takes months to build. The issue of trust and really getting to know ones qualities over a span of time.

The first one NEVER happens for me. I'm 5'6, average to good looking, don't have a lot of money and my game isn't solid. I don't expect anybody to like me right away.

Maxtro,

are you in Japan at the moment? is this girl japanese?

Nope. We're both in SoCal and she's very white.

 

[Kailex]

There are two types of attraction that I've seen in women throughout my life...

First one is...well attraction at first meeting. A girl is attracted to your looks and interior qualities from the outset. She WANTS you.

Second one is..the type of attraction that Don Juanna was talking about - the one that takes months to build. The issue of trust and really getting to know ones qualities over a span of time.

My deal is, if a girl isn't attracted to the qualities I show her over a date, a week, or hell, even a few hours - she's not worth waiting months for.


I've never met a woman alive who was worth waiting around for.

And that's the issue at heart here.

DJuanna is talking about developing the second kind of attraction, but how is Maxtro to get there if he doesn't develop ANY kind of attraction FIRST?

She might like how he looks and she might like their interaction together, but she's not going to become any more emotionally invested in this situation until he starts SHOWING some sort of interest, which is why he needs to push for a kiss.

If he waits MONTHS to develop attraction without showing anything CLEARLY at first, he's risking many things, namely:

#1 - Being friend-zoned. And I'm sorry, no matter what any woman might come here and say, but the friend-zone is a hard place to be pulled out of. And the only times I've seen men be UN-FZed is when the women no longer have any alpha options and dip into their bag of orbiters.

#2 - Having someone else swoop in during that time. If Maxtro takes his sweet ass time showing her that he's even slightly and remotely interested, there can be someone else in the meantime that'll probably have the set on him to show her that he's interested right off the bat. She's not going to choose the guy whose been there for months but hasn't showed his interest... she's going to go with the guy that is demonstrating that he can lead.


And in response to DonJuanna:

If any single guy calls me up, wants to take me places on the weekend, etc, I assume that he has some degree of sexual interest in me. Isn't that reasonable?

You are absolutely right.
But as you said as well, he hasn't gone on "dates". He hasn't made this expression of sexual interest. What would you think of a guy who keeps calling you weekend after weekend and takes you places, but never shows ANY sexual interest? At some point, as a female, you'd be lead by your emotions to think that he really ISN'T interested or that something is wrong with him. I know... because I used to be that guy at some point. Every woman KNOWS when a guy is interested, at FIRST... but if a man takes too long to demonstrate said interest... women will move on from the situation.


And you also said this:

I would just say that I don't think kissing is an effective attraction check. Girls kiss guys who they aren't attracted to all the time, just to be polite or not hurt their feelings or whatever.

And you are absolutely... RIGHT.

BUT, the point of kissing her isn't about checking to see if she is attracted... not 100%.

The point of kissing her (MAINLY) is to let her know that HE is interested. If she had any doubts of whether he was into he or not, an attempt at a kiss would definitely let her know what's going on.

And I said 100% because... if she rejects him right away, then he knows whether she's attracted or not.

And I'd much rather him try and be rejected or him try and her kiss him, even if it meant absolutely nothing to her... than to sit here and keep posting about her and thinking about the "What If's". That's the most dangerous result of them all and the most disastrous to recover from because you'll never have a clear solution, no clear sense of closure, and a complete and total feeling of hopelesness because it's no longer a situation you have any control over.

But by TRYING and facing the possible rejection, he can at least say that he tried his best.

It shouldn't take months to get a kiss from a woman. It's not highschool anymore. And this isn't a movie with a script.

What happens if he spends months talking to her and working up the nerve to kiss her and then... she turns around and says:

-I'm not interested
-I just got a boyfriend
-We should just stay friends

MONTHS wasted with exactly WHAT to show for it?

I'd rather have a woman turn her face away on the third date than to have to deal with that last scenario after 6 to 7 months trying to warm her up to me.


EDIT: For Maxtro

If she tries to turn be down because of studying, I'll say, "it's just a quick lunch." If she refuses that, I don't know...

If she turns that down with absolutely no counter offer, then that's it. Move on to the next possibility on whatever list you might have for the summer. But I will say this, something about you needs to change and it's this:

I'm 5'6, average to good looking, don't have a lot of money and my game isn't solid. I don't expect anybody to like me right away.

This mindset needs to change and you have a whole summer to work on that.
I'm 5'8, average to good looking, don't have a lot of money but my inner game is mostly tight. And that's the difference Max. If you don't exude confidence, no one is going to look at you or like you right away. It's all about how you come across to people. You need to be working more on that than anything else.

 

[Igetit!]

Her suggestions seem easy, but there is one problem, I've already done all of them.

I know.

I know you've already done everything DonJuanna has suggested.


That's one of the reasons why I'm trying to get you to do things that actually "turn this girl on".



DonJuanna's advice is fine for making "friends",and it would be ok to do with this girl AFTER attraction has been established.




Let me ask you this:Would you date a girl who's 300lbs.,flat-chested,and has her upper teeth missing?


No? Well what if she was into anime and comic books? Would that make a difference?


Probably not? You know why?


Because you're a MAN. And as a MAN,you're sexually turned on by physical female features,as I am,as ALL MEN ARE.



We men are physical,while women are more emotional. I'm trying to get you to affection her EMOTIONS.



Women need to feel a "spark",passion,chemistry. And the more MANLY you are,the more passionate she'll feel.



It's A.C.S./attraction,comfort,seduction...in THAT order.


If you skip the attraction and just go straight to making her feel comfortable,you'll run a HIGH risk of getting friendzoned.



Like I said about the 300lb. woman....even though you two may be able to connect on your common interest of anime (which is comfort),if you're not attracted to her FIRST,when she tries to date you,you're going to pull out the friend card on her.




You might like the fact that's she's into anime,but that won't sexually attract you to her. It won't "turn you on".



It's the same thing with girls. Get the attraction established FIRST,then you can move on you your common interest (comfort).





DonJuanna means well,but she's trying to get you to go with the comfort first.


That won't work.



She can discuss anime with lots of guys,but how many actually turn her on?


Hate to say this,but it may already be getting to the point where it's too late.

 

[Scion]

Well I've been in the OP's position many times, and IMO it's already too late. I'd pull off one more move, which is get her out on a date. Ask her out on a wknd, anytime where you guys wouldn't normally be hanging out (ie, not at school). Take her for a drink at a cool bar, go play pool, minigolf, whatever. Don't do dinner and a movie (never do these on a first date). If she doesn't say yes and doesn't offer another time then go no contact (within reason, obviously if you need to interact with her at school then fine, but otherwise no contact).

 

[ARrocket]

Well I've been in the OP's position many times, and IMO it's already too late. I'd pull off one more move, which is get her out on a date. Ask her out on a wknd, anytime where you guys wouldn't normally be hanging out (ie, not at school). Take her for a drink at a cool bar, go play pool, minigolf, whatever. Don't do dinner and a movie (never do these on a first date). If she doesn't say yes and doesn't offer another time then go no contact (within reason, obviously if you need to interact with her at school then fine, but otherwise no contact).

Agreed! I've been following this thread, it's been really awesome to see Igetit! and DonJuanna offering their 2 viewpoints, but seriously, why is nobody mentioning the fact that he's pursuing her WAY too much? He asks her to lunch again and again, and she's always busy. "A quick lunch." Really Maxtro? Really? Nobody studies so much that they can't have lunch. I feel like she's blowing you off, so you need to pull back a little, work your charm on her in class for awhile and be BUSY outside of class! Because she definitely is.

 

[Maxtro]

Agreed! I've been following this thread, it's been really awesome to see Igetit! and DonJuanna offering their 2 viewpoints, but seriously, why is nobody mentioning the fact that he's pursuing her WAY too much? He asks her to lunch again and again, and she's always busy. "A quick lunch." Really Maxtro? Really? Nobody studies so much that they can't have lunch. I feel like she's blowing you off, so you need to pull back a little, work your charm on her in class for awhile and be BUSY outside of class! Because she definitely is.

Heh dude, I think you misunderstood, the quick lunch is only a hypothetical conversation that has yet to occur.

All her tests are happening Thursday and she's not at all excited about having to spend all day tomorrow studying. I haven't even tried to make weekend plans with her yet.

Right now I'm deciding if I should call her tomorrow evening to make weekend plans, do it in class on Thursday, or call her later that night.

 

[DonJuanna]

Ok, I'm back.

Igetit, yes it's true, I think he should go for comfort first. But I think while he's establishing that comfort, he should be gradually upping the ante in terms of physical contact each time they hang out- first sitting very close to her, then sitting with his knee pressed against hers, then doing all of this when they're alone in his or her place- all the while building up an emotional bond. This way he can gradually carve out a very prominent role in her life, keeping his sexual interest subtle but unmistakable.

Some of you are saying, it's not worth it if he has to wait any longer and go through all that rigamorole. Fine, sure. I'm just saying that considering her age, shyness, and probable inexperience, a kind of gradual approach would have the best chance of success.

I agree with everyone else that a "quick lunch" is a bad idea. Why don't you offer to take her to a comic book store, then a park. In the park you can sit close to her, get her used to your physical presence, etc. I know people are skeptical of him winning her over with anime, but in California people tend to be fairly conformist, and when two people have tastes even slightly outside of the mainstream, I think it's really easy to bond and develop attraction over it. Maxtro can create some kind of "you and me vs. all the boring California people" dynamic.

Maxtro, I know you're tired of just talking to her and you want to move things along, and whatever decision you make I respect that and wish you the best, but I think that even if this girl ultimately doesn't hook up with you, you could learn a lot about how to interact with women and read their feelings by spending time with her.

 

[Maxtro]

Cool, I got a date for tomorrow.

Yesterday I talked to her at the end of class and made plans to get together with her over the weekend. I asked her when the last time she did mini-golf was and she said something "never again, but how about bowling." She wasn't sure what day she had free and she would get back to me later that day when she figures it out.

An hour later she sent me a text telling me that Sunday wasn't good for her how about Friday or Saturday. My reply was, "Saturday sounds good. I think I pulled a muscle doing salsa." As I was limping off the dance floor. We had a few texts back and forth about Salsa. Then I sent a text, "Hey, just to make sure we're on for Saturday." No reply.

If she didn't reply to me, I was going to call her around 3:00 today to confirm. Well it turns out she sent me a text asking me what time I wanted to get together tomorrow. Instead of another stupid texting session I just called her. I arranged the time for tomorrow, got her address and she also suggested going to the beach.

Saturday should be an interesting day.

 

[Kailex]

Cool, I got a date for tomorrow.

If she didn't reply to me, I was going to call her around 3:00 today to confirm. Well it turns out she sent me a text asking me what time I wanted to get together tomorrow. Instead of another stupid texting session I just called her. I arranged the time for tomorrow, got her address and she also suggested going to the beach.

Saturday should be an interesting day.

That's RIGHT. That's how you do it.
No stupid texting sessions! I have to say, I've been waiting for an update on this thread, and I'm sure Igetit! probably has been to.

But the most important update will happen after Saturday.

Good luck tomorrow. At least you already know what Igetit! and I believe, but only you truly will know how the situation is panning out. Just be cool, don't be nervous... and why in the blue hell am I talking like I'm your father.






PS: Be home before 11 PM and have a condom on you.

J/k.

 

[Igetit!]

That's RIGHT. That's how you do it.
No stupid texting sessions!

Yeah,that's exactly what I was thinking.


I'm glad you called her instead of texting as well.

I have to say, I've been waiting for an update on this thread, and I'm sure Igetit! probably has been to.

Yeah,I was hoping Max would update this thing and let us what the deal was.


This means that there's some interest on her part and she's open to getting to know Maxtro better.


Well Max? This is what you wanted.

But the most important update will happen after Saturday.

Agreed.

Just be cool, don't be nervous...

Right. Remember Max,women are emotional.

So however YOU feel will most likely infect her.


If you're nervous,she'll feel nervous.
If you're uncomfortable or uneasy,it'll make her uncomfortable and uneasy.
If you're cool and relaxed,it'll make her feel relaxed.



So above ALL ELSE....be cool.

 

[DjVita]

ive been following this thread for some time
priceless...
have sucess, not good luck Maxtro
im looking forward for the field report...
women are easy to get if you do the right things

 

[Maxtro]

Well I'm crossed this girl off my list.

About an hour before I was going to leave to get her, she sent me a text asking if I wanted to play video games at her house. And that she wanted me to meet her friend. He's only going to be there for a bit then we can go bowling.

Right away alarms were sounding in my head. I thought about canceling for today but I couldn't think of a good enough excuse so I went through with the "date"

And it turned out exactly like I thought it would. Me, her and her friend the entire time.

The fact that she did this is a huge red flag. So we played video games, went bowling, looked at stupid youtube videos and I left.

As she was walking me out she asked me if I had fun. I lied and said sure, gave her a hug and drove away.

I'm not mad at her. What hurts the most is knowing that I did something wrong, which happened before I even made this thread. Unfortunately I don't know what I could have done differently. If I don't learn something from this experience, then I went through this for nothing.

 

[f283000]

Good luck next time brother. What were you doing agreeing to hangout with she and her friend? Notice hangout in bold. YOU NEVER AGREE TO HANGOUT WITH YOUR ROMANTIC INTEREST AND ONE OF HER FRIENDS EVER! NOT UNTIL SHE'S YOUR GF!

Remember you are not out to "hangout" with girls you are out to seduce them! Seducing is done by isolating them not hanging out with her stupid friends! Leave hanging out for when they are your gf.

You allowed her to turn what was supposed to be a date between you two into a play date with one of her friends riding along. How were you going to put a move on her with him there? You should have told her something came up and done something else.

I hope you learned your lesson and hopefully you delete this girl from your life. Even if she is in your class do not pursue contact with her. Act like she doesn't exist. Delete her from your life (myspace, facebook, cell etc) but if you don't have the balls to do it now wait till your class with her is over. That is the only option when it comes to women that disrespect you. But in this case I don't think she disrespected you since you are the one that didn't show her your true intentions from the beginning.

Remember, you do not have to accept a woman's contract EVER! If she wants you to be her friend (because frankly you messed up from the beginning) and you don't want that you do not have to accept her contract. You are a guy with a busy life and plenty of friends and you don't need another one. That's the image you have to put out. Get rid of her from your life and move on.

Can't wait to see what Pastor Igetit! says about this one

 

[Maxtro]

The reason I went along with it was because I naively believed her that her friend would go back home and then just the two of us would go bowling. When she invited him, I knew the day had gone to shit. There was absolutely nothing I could do. I would have looked like a total ass if I said I didn't want him to come or if I said that I'm going home.

I hope you learned your lesson and hopefully you delete this girl from your life. Even if she is in your class do not pursue contact with her. Act like she doesn't exist.

That will be difficult. The class meets four days a week in a small room and there are about 15 students. I sit in the front row, right next to her.

Should I just change my seat and never talk to her again?

But in this case I don't think she disrespected you

I believe that she did disrespect me. When I talked to her yesterday she asked if it would be OK if she could invite her friends and I told her I wanted it to be just us.

When she texted me around 12 today, her friend was already there. BTW she's known this guy since High School, at least two years.

"I would like you to meet my friend-is that ok? hes going to be here for a short while then we can leave."

since you are the one that didn't show her your true intentions from the beginning.

When is the beginning? I met this chick in class, hung out with her a couple times at lunch, then arranged a weekend date. WHAT THE HELL SHOULD I HAVE DONE!??

I'm still trying to figure this seduction, dating, attraction shit out. I'm slowly making progress but I'm getting so fucking frustrated.