TylerDurden’s 25 Point Checklist on Basic AFC (ie DJ) Mistakes
- Thread starter JT47319
- Start date
glad to read some new stuff on here. i'd give it 5stars if it didn't have the underlying message that you MUST do everything perfectly or else you will not get the girl
as i started reading down the list i realised that there was nothing i was doing right. this has given me a kick up the arse
it's pretty funny reading number5. if you don't have your legs more than half a metre a part people will think of you as less of a person. come off it
as i started reading down the list i realised that there was nothing i was doing right. this has given me a kick up the arse
it's pretty funny reading number5. if you don't have your legs more than half a metre a part people will think of you as less of a person. come off it
JT47319
Master Don Juan
Isn’t it curious as to how the same attitude of “Oh, it should be natural, you should already know how to approach women, you just need to be yourself, you don’t need to read the internet to talk to women” that the outside world has towards actively learning about seduction (ie DJ, MASF, etc) is the same attitude that some “DJs” have towards even more pro-active methods about learning Pick Up? “You just need to be yourself, you just need to read the articles, you should already know how to approach women by reading the Bible, you don’t need to take a workshop to talk to women.”
All these 25 points are difficult to remember in the field and you’re going to end up breaking them every now and then, but as you gain FIELD EXPERIENCE, they become part of you and your natural instincts. After a few hundred sets, you stop even thinking about them and do them by sheer reflex, unconsciously aware that certain opportunities may demand that some of the points can be broken to achieve the desired outcome.
And yes, I have known semi-Naturals and Intermediate level PUAs take these workshops (rather they be TD’s, Mystery’s, BadBoy’s, etc.) in order to step up their game into the more advanced arena. And just to give an example, a wing of mine who’s taken BOTH Mystery and TD has posted up another LR on the PLAY list. That’s 4 lays in 4 consecutive weeks with really cute girls (well, I've only met 2 of the girls).
Field Experience is king.
All these 25 points are difficult to remember in the field and you’re going to end up breaking them every now and then, but as you gain FIELD EXPERIENCE, they become part of you and your natural instincts. After a few hundred sets, you stop even thinking about them and do them by sheer reflex, unconsciously aware that certain opportunities may demand that some of the points can be broken to achieve the desired outcome.
And yes, I have known semi-Naturals and Intermediate level PUAs take these workshops (rather they be TD’s, Mystery’s, BadBoy’s, etc.) in order to step up their game into the more advanced arena. And just to give an example, a wing of mine who’s taken BOTH Mystery and TD has posted up another LR on the PLAY list. That’s 4 lays in 4 consecutive weeks with really cute girls (well, I've only met 2 of the girls).
Field Experience is king.
These guidelines are crap for the most part. There are MILLIONS of men out there who are getting laid consistantly, without a problem, who have NO IDEA about any of those rules and are just doing their own thing. I don't follow those guidelines the slightest bit and I do just fine.
The reason lists like those are so popular is because it gives hope to guys who feel there is something they can *do* to make themselves 'more attractive'. When the truth is all you can really do is become comfortable with yourself and let that shine. The rest will take care of itself.
The reason lists like those are so popular is because it gives hope to guys who feel there is something they can *do* to make themselves 'more attractive'. When the truth is all you can really do is become comfortable with yourself and let that shine. The rest will take care of itself.
mrbrooklyn
Don Juan
I think we should look at these points as a frame to work with. You might not use all of these tactics, but if you slowly incorporate a few into your approach frame, it will improve your game.
The reason guys are on this board is because they are having trouble with women. Telling a guy to be himself, confident, or relaxed is not going to cut. We need to give people more concreat methods of enhancing their game with women. If not they will just continue to do the same things that caused them to fail in the past.
Most of these points are very reasonable and effective. body languege, tonality and pace of speak, being too interested in a girl early in the approach. These are things that turn girls off and drive them to the naturals.
I few weeks ago I met a girl in a club, we get to talking and things are going cool, she goes to the bathroom and I wait for her like a chump, she does this again and again I wait for her
outside the bathroom. Now we had great convo, but I think if
when she got back from the bathroom she saw me chatting up
other girls it would have made her want me more. Needless to say I went home alone that night.
When i got home I asked myself what I did wrong. I reasoned that I was to eager to be in her presense and she could feel that vibe. i Talked to fast, I kept leaning in to hear her, I waited for her when she was away, I asked to much rapport questions before she earned it.
When I go out I try to stay conscious of these things, because I tend to do them often. I have been doing a lot better lately just naturaly trying to stay cool and confident with many (but not all) of these points in mind.
Body language and tonality are a key. these are the things you start with and then try to incorporate the others over time.
xblitz44x
You are right millions of guys are getting laid just being themselves. Have you sen the type of girls that most guys SETTLE for. I can get laid 3-5 times a week if I settled for any type of girl. Unfortunately I like to meet beautiful women. Most guys don't know how to attract the highest quality of women. That should be why we are on this board, to be able to attract and lay the type of women that were once beyond our mean.
From what I have read the guys that developed these points learned them from studying the naturals do it in the field. Go to any club and you will see the loud frat boys, or the thug gangsters, and even the latin lovers using many of these same principles. The difference between them and PUA is that they just do it subconciously.
The reason guys are on this board is because they are having trouble with women. Telling a guy to be himself, confident, or relaxed is not going to cut. We need to give people more concreat methods of enhancing their game with women. If not they will just continue to do the same things that caused them to fail in the past.
Most of these points are very reasonable and effective. body languege, tonality and pace of speak, being too interested in a girl early in the approach. These are things that turn girls off and drive them to the naturals.
I few weeks ago I met a girl in a club, we get to talking and things are going cool, she goes to the bathroom and I wait for her like a chump, she does this again and again I wait for her
outside the bathroom. Now we had great convo, but I think if
when she got back from the bathroom she saw me chatting up
other girls it would have made her want me more. Needless to say I went home alone that night.
When i got home I asked myself what I did wrong. I reasoned that I was to eager to be in her presense and she could feel that vibe. i Talked to fast, I kept leaning in to hear her, I waited for her when she was away, I asked to much rapport questions before she earned it.
When I go out I try to stay conscious of these things, because I tend to do them often. I have been doing a lot better lately just naturaly trying to stay cool and confident with many (but not all) of these points in mind.
Body language and tonality are a key. these are the things you start with and then try to incorporate the others over time.
xblitz44x
You are right millions of guys are getting laid just being themselves. Have you sen the type of girls that most guys SETTLE for. I can get laid 3-5 times a week if I settled for any type of girl. Unfortunately I like to meet beautiful women. Most guys don't know how to attract the highest quality of women. That should be why we are on this board, to be able to attract and lay the type of women that were once beyond our mean.
From what I have read the guys that developed these points learned them from studying the naturals do it in the field. Go to any club and you will see the loud frat boys, or the thug gangsters, and even the latin lovers using many of these same principles. The difference between them and PUA is that they just do it subconciously.
"Have you sen the type of girls that most guys SETTLE for. I can get laid 3-5 times a week if I settled for any type of girl."
About 99.9999 percent of this country has NO IDEA that this site, or that "the community" even exists...let alone can "implement" these so-called tactics. Women are STILL having (a lot) of sex. And yes, even the hot ones. Which means that the 'tactics and tricks' and lists of superficial shyt that we're 'not supposed to do' is really irrelevant because A LOT of guys who have no idea about this stuff, are still getting laid. Else we wouldn't even be here to talk about this.
"Most guys don't know how to attract the highest quality of women."
And THAT statement right there is the root of all of your fvckups. The misperception that you have to DO something different to be attractive to "HOT WOMEN". The attraction happens at a level WAAAAAY deeper than "pecking" and talking with your hands is going to change. A 'hot' girl and an 'ugly' girl are sexually compelled by the SAME EXACT things. You're fvcking yourself up because you're trying to *do* different shyt with girls you perceive to be prettier, thus screwing it up and blaming on a misperception that hotter women require different attention.
About 99.9999 percent of this country has NO IDEA that this site, or that "the community" even exists...let alone can "implement" these so-called tactics. Women are STILL having (a lot) of sex. And yes, even the hot ones. Which means that the 'tactics and tricks' and lists of superficial shyt that we're 'not supposed to do' is really irrelevant because A LOT of guys who have no idea about this stuff, are still getting laid. Else we wouldn't even be here to talk about this.
"Most guys don't know how to attract the highest quality of women."
And THAT statement right there is the root of all of your fvckups. The misperception that you have to DO something different to be attractive to "HOT WOMEN". The attraction happens at a level WAAAAAY deeper than "pecking" and talking with your hands is going to change. A 'hot' girl and an 'ugly' girl are sexually compelled by the SAME EXACT things. You're fvcking yourself up because you're trying to *do* different shyt with girls you perceive to be prettier, thus screwing it up and blaming on a misperception that hotter women require different attention.
I can't believe this thread is getting negative reviews!
If you are paying any attention you'll see that Tyler Durden's main point is that qualifying a chick too soon isn't your best bet.
Whether it be thru body language, tone of voice, chasing her, waiting while she goes to the bathroom, trying too hard,etc. most guys DO qualify WAY too easily. Hell, most guys will qualify a chick based on looks ALONE!!! Very lame. Notice Tyler repeatedly mentions to treat a hotty like she is an UG. So many guys get in the presence of a hot chick and automatically start acting like fools.
While I don't agree with imposing too many rules and making this game into a science that is what Tyler is into and face it - some guys need alot of help.
If these guidelines help some guys then great. No flames needed.
If you are paying any attention you'll see that Tyler Durden's main point is that qualifying a chick too soon isn't your best bet.
Whether it be thru body language, tone of voice, chasing her, waiting while she goes to the bathroom, trying too hard,etc. most guys DO qualify WAY too easily. Hell, most guys will qualify a chick based on looks ALONE!!! Very lame. Notice Tyler repeatedly mentions to treat a hotty like she is an UG. So many guys get in the presence of a hot chick and automatically start acting like fools.
While I don't agree with imposing too many rules and making this game into a science that is what Tyler is into and face it - some guys need alot of help.
If these guidelines help some guys then great. No flames needed.
mrbrooklyn
Don Juan
Which means that the 'tactics and tricks' and lists of superficial shyt that we're 'not supposed to do' is really irrelevant because A LOT of guys who have no idea about this stuff, are still getting laid. Else we wouldn't even be here to talk about this.
My point is that the guys that are getting the hot chicks without this community are naturals. The guys who developed these points studied how the naturals communicate with women and then put it in writing.
If you are conscious of what you do wrong then you can move towards self improvement.
I have a friend who is a natural. he knows nothing of this community, but if you see his enteraction with women you will notice he subconsciously adhears to many of these points.
I played football in high school and college. We had cheer leaders there to motivate us and encourage us which was great, but it was the coaches who actually taught us the skills that we needed suceed in our sport.
This thread should not be argumentative. We all know that without a solid inner game (self confidence) nothing that is taught here or on other website will help. But once you are happy with your self these and other tactics will help you.
My point is that the guys that are getting the hot chicks without this community are naturals. The guys who developed these points studied how the naturals communicate with women and then put it in writing.
If you are conscious of what you do wrong then you can move towards self improvement.
I have a friend who is a natural. he knows nothing of this community, but if you see his enteraction with women you will notice he subconsciously adhears to many of these points.
I played football in high school and college. We had cheer leaders there to motivate us and encourage us which was great, but it was the coaches who actually taught us the skills that we needed suceed in our sport.
This thread should not be argumentative. We all know that without a solid inner game (self confidence) nothing that is taught here or on other website will help. But once you are happy with your self these and other tactics will help you.
blitz, this is SO TRUE. Someone stated earlier, that running game on hot woman is different to running game on average woman. The game is EXACTLY the same. I have been with my fair share of stunners in my time, and a lot of 6-7s also. The game I run on both is the SAME. The game is called ME!!
Although if those with insecurites want to waste money on this crap, go do it! I am more than happy right where I am!
Kineti[C]harm
Master Don Juan
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xblitz aren't you tired of being ignorant? You are more annoying and off-beat and afc than THeJamesMethod guy.
Go have sex with your donkeybreath hickygirls while people with the real game get the highend LA chicks etc.
Go have sex with your donkeybreath hickygirls while people with the real game get the highend LA chicks etc.
MrBrooklyn,
First of all, let me say that I'm not trying to disagree just to disagree. I understand the point of all of this, and have been involved in this site, and ASF for over 2 years now. Hell, I even dropped $400 bucks on a workshop before back in my early days. So I have been in that stage where all of this 'makes sense' and you are under the impression that all you have to do is shapen the superficial behaviors that "attractive guys" do, and you will appear to be an attractive guy. Some guys call it "working on your personality"...by trying to talk themselves into believing that they are the man, and that women should feel lucky to be in their presence. Really, that is nothing more than an affirmation. Deep down inside, the insecure guy who felt that he was unattractive to begin with, will still feel unattractive and will constantly doubt himself in certain situations.
Not that he IS unattractive, but that doesn't matter. As long as he feels that way, he will operate from the place of: "I have to *do* something or I will always be unattractive." So he goes out and changes the superficial outside shyt, over and over and over again...never to be satisfied because the problem always started INSIDE of himself. It is sorta like clipping the weed from above the soil. Instead of digging it up at the root.
"If you are conscious of what you do wrong then you can move towards self improvement."
The reason that the guys on this board aren't getting women, isn't so much that they are doing 'wrong shyt'...it's because they are operating from a place that is compelling them to do 'wrong shyt'. They are acting insecure, and being insecure because they ARE insecure. And trying to change their subtle little outside actions like "pecking" and "talking with your hands" is not going to suddenly *make them* attractive. It happens on a level much deeper than that. It's the reason that Vin Diesel or Brad Pitt can talk with their hands and peck the entire damn time. And it's not about how 'handsome' they are, it's about being in touch of their maleness. Becoming who they are, and projecting that from the inside out, and NOT vice-versa.
"I have a friend who is a natural. he knows nothing of this community, but if you see his enteraction with women you will notice he subconsciously adhears to many of these points. "
For every guy like this, I can point out 3 who don't adhere to those points and still gets laid when he wants to get laid.
It's kinda funny because TD's main point is, "Don't qualify yourself to a chick"...yet he is out writing RULES for how you have to act to get a chick to like you. That's kinda ironic isn't it?
Cloony,
Thanks for sticking up for me. I'm not even going to bother arguing. It's funny that there is SO many different points of view tossed around on this site. But once somebody shakes the foundation of their beliefs, they feel threatened and feel the need to insult.
First of all, let me say that I'm not trying to disagree just to disagree. I understand the point of all of this, and have been involved in this site, and ASF for over 2 years now. Hell, I even dropped $400 bucks on a workshop before back in my early days. So I have been in that stage where all of this 'makes sense' and you are under the impression that all you have to do is shapen the superficial behaviors that "attractive guys" do, and you will appear to be an attractive guy. Some guys call it "working on your personality"...by trying to talk themselves into believing that they are the man, and that women should feel lucky to be in their presence. Really, that is nothing more than an affirmation. Deep down inside, the insecure guy who felt that he was unattractive to begin with, will still feel unattractive and will constantly doubt himself in certain situations.
Not that he IS unattractive, but that doesn't matter. As long as he feels that way, he will operate from the place of: "I have to *do* something or I will always be unattractive." So he goes out and changes the superficial outside shyt, over and over and over again...never to be satisfied because the problem always started INSIDE of himself. It is sorta like clipping the weed from above the soil. Instead of digging it up at the root.
"If you are conscious of what you do wrong then you can move towards self improvement."
The reason that the guys on this board aren't getting women, isn't so much that they are doing 'wrong shyt'...it's because they are operating from a place that is compelling them to do 'wrong shyt'. They are acting insecure, and being insecure because they ARE insecure. And trying to change their subtle little outside actions like "pecking" and "talking with your hands" is not going to suddenly *make them* attractive. It happens on a level much deeper than that. It's the reason that Vin Diesel or Brad Pitt can talk with their hands and peck the entire damn time. And it's not about how 'handsome' they are, it's about being in touch of their maleness. Becoming who they are, and projecting that from the inside out, and NOT vice-versa.
"I have a friend who is a natural. he knows nothing of this community, but if you see his enteraction with women you will notice he subconsciously adhears to many of these points. "
For every guy like this, I can point out 3 who don't adhere to those points and still gets laid when he wants to get laid.
It's kinda funny because TD's main point is, "Don't qualify yourself to a chick"...yet he is out writing RULES for how you have to act to get a chick to like you. That's kinda ironic isn't it?
Cloony,
Thanks for sticking up for me. I'm not even going to bother arguing. It's funny that there is SO many different points of view tossed around on this site. But once somebody shakes the foundation of their beliefs, they feel threatened and feel the need to insult.
Kineti[C]harm
Master Don Juan
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Blahblah, sorry that's hardly the case since I do not follow or use anything from TD or anyone else and I find several things about TDs game just lame.
TD doesn't think he is unattractive, well who knows what he REALLY thinks but from what he says he thinks he is very attractive.
RULES can give people the confidence and motivation to go into the field, and keep going there, until eventually they dont need to think of rules any longer.
Think of building a table out of a flat pack. Do you want step-by-step, hard & fast rules for successful assembly, or a winding essay on its overall structure, function and uses?
Whether you like it or not, concrete methods and rules are usually more useful than a 32 page dissertation on "true masculinity"
Think of building a table out of a flat pack. Do you want step-by-step, hard & fast rules for successful assembly, or a winding essay on its overall structure, function and uses?
Whether you like it or not, concrete methods and rules are usually more useful than a 32 page dissertation on "true masculinity"
lolOriginally posted by AMF
RULES can give people the confidence and motivation to go into the field, and keep going there, until eventually they dont need to think of rules any longer.
Think of building a table out of a flat pack. Do you want step-by-step, hard & fast rules for successful assembly, or a winding essay on its overall structure, function and uses?
Whether you like it or not, concrete methods and rules are usually more useful than a 32 page dissertation on "true masculinity"
NOTHING in life is certain, other than life and death themselves. Everything has contingencies, and u must improvise on the spot. In picking up girls, this is done through emotional intelligence and confidence.
If u keep making the table according to the rules, who is the table for? Different people may like a different table. If u keep sticking to the rules, u might miss out on an innovation that could be incorporated.
This is where rules go HORRIBLY wrong. As long as you have a basic foundation of what to do and not, u dont need to get into such details, as they dont mean SH*T in the game.
Kineti[C]harm
Master Don Juan
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Going up and saying BIIIIITCH or Sooo how ***** are you?! A couple of my new favourites
Something that is hilarious todo is see a girl sitting or a set sitting, then you approach and sit down at THE SIDE or something, not FACING them, then just start asking them about if they can find some hot girl for you or point at some hot girl and ask if she's a real good girl or some gold digger or whatever. Stuff like that.
Something that is hilarious todo is see a girl sitting or a set sitting, then you approach and sit down at THE SIDE or something, not FACING them, then just start asking them about if they can find some hot girl for you or point at some hot girl and ask if she's a real good girl or some gold digger or whatever. Stuff like that.
xblitz, are you saying that once you work on your internal beliefs all your external mannerisms magically shape themselves up? Why not work on both at the same time and see a greater improvement? Also, I believe that working on your external game with techniques and body language pointers is conducive to more immediate, short term successes, which give the positive mental reinforcement necessary for you to improve your internal beliefs. You can go around chanting mantras on what to believe all day, but without physical results you're going to get discouraged pretty quickly.
"are you saying that once you work on your internal beliefs all your external mannerisms magically shape themselves up?"
Not magically, but yes. Once you have learned about who you are, your own insecurities, your own issues that are making you believe that you're even unattractive to begin wtih, you will have nothing stopping you. You won't be bound to what people think because they will never make you question your own worth. These supposed "Don Juans" who work on nothing but external superficial shyt and try to convince everybody that they are 'confident and alpha' are usually the most insecure and dying on the inside. Because you can tell yourself over and over again that you're the man because you got laid, but you know damn well that if you get rejected 3 times in a row that "confidence" (or what you mistook as confidence) goes out the window. It was never confidence, just an ego boost which was deflated when somebody else shot you down.
"Why not work on both at the same time and see a greater improvement?"
It's not going to give you greater improvement. "External game" is nothing more than misperceiving there is something "wrong" with you to begin with and trying to mimic with what YOU THINK makes attractive people, attractive. It's never about hand gestures, pecking, kino, 'snapping of the head', it happens on a level much deeper than you'll never see if we're too caught up in this superficial bullshyt. It's why Vin Diesel can nail (a lot) of chicks (not all) by talking with his hands and pecking like a hen the entire time, and Danny DeVito can be so far up TD's ass with his rules and never touch a girl. It's about maleness, and how in touch you are with your own. Period.
"Also, I believe that working on your external game with techniques and body language pointers is conducive to more immediate, short term successes, which give the positive mental reinforcement necessary for you to improve your internal beliefs."
That seems to be the foundation of your misperceptions. That your external end result is what should shape the inside of you. The problem is that you're letting OUTSIDE, EXTERNAL FACTORS which are out of your control, shape how you feel about yourself. When you do that, you are giving your control away to unpredictible outside sources. So if you get laid, you feel better about yourself. You get rejected a few times, you feel like crap. And you think that if you get laid enough times in a row, that you'll have enough "confidence" (which is actually just an ego boost) to be able to DEAL WITH a few rejections in a row. Why live like that?
Why not REALLY learn about yourself, and be comfortable with yourself, and dig deep to resolve your own inner issues that made you feel that you NEED sosuave at all? That way, when things happen externally, you know it's happening OUTSIDE of you and therefore should have no impact on how you feel about yourself. THAT is true confidence, and THAT is something very few people on this site will ever see because they are too preoccupied with learning rules and "theory" and trying to talk themselves up enough and blow smoke up their own asses so that they will stop being such a pvssy and approach a girl; instead of figuring out WHY it was ever an issue to begin with.
Not magically, but yes. Once you have learned about who you are, your own insecurities, your own issues that are making you believe that you're even unattractive to begin wtih, you will have nothing stopping you. You won't be bound to what people think because they will never make you question your own worth. These supposed "Don Juans" who work on nothing but external superficial shyt and try to convince everybody that they are 'confident and alpha' are usually the most insecure and dying on the inside. Because you can tell yourself over and over again that you're the man because you got laid, but you know damn well that if you get rejected 3 times in a row that "confidence" (or what you mistook as confidence) goes out the window. It was never confidence, just an ego boost which was deflated when somebody else shot you down.
"Why not work on both at the same time and see a greater improvement?"
It's not going to give you greater improvement. "External game" is nothing more than misperceiving there is something "wrong" with you to begin with and trying to mimic with what YOU THINK makes attractive people, attractive. It's never about hand gestures, pecking, kino, 'snapping of the head', it happens on a level much deeper than you'll never see if we're too caught up in this superficial bullshyt. It's why Vin Diesel can nail (a lot) of chicks (not all) by talking with his hands and pecking like a hen the entire time, and Danny DeVito can be so far up TD's ass with his rules and never touch a girl. It's about maleness, and how in touch you are with your own. Period.
"Also, I believe that working on your external game with techniques and body language pointers is conducive to more immediate, short term successes, which give the positive mental reinforcement necessary for you to improve your internal beliefs."
That seems to be the foundation of your misperceptions. That your external end result is what should shape the inside of you. The problem is that you're letting OUTSIDE, EXTERNAL FACTORS which are out of your control, shape how you feel about yourself. When you do that, you are giving your control away to unpredictible outside sources. So if you get laid, you feel better about yourself. You get rejected a few times, you feel like crap. And you think that if you get laid enough times in a row, that you'll have enough "confidence" (which is actually just an ego boost) to be able to DEAL WITH a few rejections in a row. Why live like that?
Why not REALLY learn about yourself, and be comfortable with yourself, and dig deep to resolve your own inner issues that made you feel that you NEED sosuave at all? That way, when things happen externally, you know it's happening OUTSIDE of you and therefore should have no impact on how you feel about yourself. THAT is true confidence, and THAT is something very few people on this site will ever see because they are too preoccupied with learning rules and "theory" and trying to talk themselves up enough and blow smoke up their own asses so that they will stop being such a pvssy and approach a girl; instead of figuring out WHY it was ever an issue to begin with.
