The New Black???

[Luthor Rex]

That's an extremely shallow declaration of what affirmative action is. First off, the biggest beneficiaries of affirmative action have been WHITES, not blacks. Yes you heard me right. White women have benefited from affirmative action in the workplace more than black people as a whole have given that there are more white females in the country by a large margin than there are both black males and black female.

You don't deserve to be treated preferentially because of gender either.

 

[speakeasy]

They mentioned it as a struggle for civil rights and for equality. In that way it is very much the same. Nobody ever compared the amount of suffering as the same. THAT is all Black folks.

If they specifically said it is a struggle for civil rights and equality, I wouldn't even be reacting. I'm responding specifically to the increasingly popular phrase "gay is the new black" which certainly DIDN'T originate with the black community.

Maybe because my mother is from Ireland and the Irish internalize their struggle as the most oppressed people ever (despite being pretty well off today) but I really wish people would step out of their little clubhouses and show some support to other people being ****ed over for once. Story of life, one down-in-the-dumps group dumps on another to what? It doesn't even gain favor anymore. All it does is help someone feel superior.

I don't think most black people or any people for that matter have any issue with gays having rights. But for the majority of Americans, that stops short of redefining marriage away from it's male-female norm. If people tried to legalize polygamy, you'd be getting the same resistance. I don't think it has anything to do with hate. Polls show that Americans support civil unions that give gays all the same rights.

I dunno...maybe the only solution is for the government to only recognize civil unions and leave the definition of marriage as such to individuals.

 

[everywomanshero]

Who cares what gay people are doing? Actually, I specifically don't want to know what they are doing... ewwww lol

I don't think it's useful to worry about these matters. The stereotypes people try to apply to you whether white, black, yellow, or red are not unsurpassable, at least not for someone of my caliber. I enjoy the challenge. Some people are lazy and others were just destined to be failures. Excuses, excuses, excuses... How about being a solutuons guy instead and finding solutions to any problem one faces.. Sorry kiddos, you guys can fight over who gets the handouts, but I'd rather write my own destiny and am not counting on being treated fairly, but instead am planning on being more efficient and getting things done regardless of obstacles.

In this hobby, you win by ****ing chicks you are attracted to. If you don't **** the chicks you are attracted to, regardless of the excuses why, you did not obtain your target. The excuses are not important. These days people are full of excuses, full of reasons why they cannot succeed. These guys make it too easy for guys like me who are go getters of the world. I am going to eat your lunch for you because you're too lazy to go get it ha ha.

 

[oakraiderz2]

He specifically pointed out how blacks are given more points in the admissions process for college because they are black. Which is, by definition, preferential treatment. Affirmative Action is NOT civil rights. Actual equality would mean that no one would have an advantage based on their race, but the fact is that blacks clearly do.

You don't deserve to be treated preferentially because of your skin color.

I fully agree. You do deserve an equal chance, which may not always be the case (at least when AA began). I dont agree with AA either; although, it would be interesting to take it away and see what happens.

It seems like some people think racism doesnt exist and that its an illusion. There will never be equality.

 

[ketostix]

I fully agree. You do deserve an equal chance, which may not always be the case (at least when AA began). I dont agree with AA either; although, it would be interesting to take it away and see what happens.

Why didn't you just say that in the first place and we wouldn't disagree? The problem is if you took AA away and the prior recipients didn't fair as well as before then what? Would those group members work harder or would they make excuses?

It seems like some people think racism doesnt exist and that its an illusion. There will never be equality.

The thing is racism isn't just whites towards blacks. It's every race against every other race. Women like to falsely claim there will never be equality, but that doesn't tell the real tale.

The biggest problem I have with people talking about equality like women and feminist do is, it's really a self-serving agenda to disfavor another group more than anything.

 

[prairiedog24]

The thing about AA, is even the supporters have to justify it in terms of results (results which have been devastating the the black community in my opinion, but whatever).

My question is, do good results make a racist practice somehow justifiable? Or can racism be bad on principle alone?

Arguably the majority of black servants in England in the early 1800's had a better life than many or most ghetto kids today. No crime, no drugs, 3 square meals a day, certainly no suicide, better life expectancy, etc. Being worth roughly $400,000 at the time had a lot to do with them being cared for. And yet nobody in their right mind would argue for such a racist predicament today despite the "good results", yet somehow people feel justified in making a very similar argument with AA.

 

[speakeasy]

The thing about AA, is even the supporters have to justify it in terms of results (results which have been devastating the the black community in my opinion, but whatever).

How has AA been "devastating" in the black community? Gangs perhaps, drugs perhaps, unwed mothers perhaps, but how AA?

My question is, do good results make a racist practice somehow justifiable? Or can racism be bad on principle alone?

To me racism is the belief in the inherent inferiority of another race. I don't know how AA is "racist" since it carries no such belief other than to help level the playing field. Remember, just because you have a society that's color blind in law doesn't mean it will be color blind in results. Most people are friends mainly with people of their same background(race, class, religion). 95% of jobs aren't advertised in job ads, they are found through social networking. That's especially true of the best paying, most rewarding jobs. Placing an ad in the paper or online(which is the most democratic way of finding new applicants) is probably the last thing they do. I've seen complete dumb shi-ts get hired at previous companies only because they knew somebody that hooked them up. My previous boss, I had to quit because I couldn't stand working for such an idiot. Dude was getting paid $150k a year and half the time I'd walk in his office and he'd be on myspace or match.com. A black person wouldn't last a day in a company doing that sh*t. His ass would've been fired on the spot. F*cker had a sweet deal because he was buddies with the CEO. I never saw this CEO palling up with black people at company parties. Probably doesn't have any black buddies as most whites don't. So even with colorblind laws, racial heirarchy will continue on into the future because most people with the money and power only hang around people like themselves. And obviously due to the racist history of the country, most the people with money and power are white. Therefore whites are always going to have the natural advantage when it comes to making money. AA isn't a solution to everything, but calling it destructive...gimme a break.

 

[prairiedog24]

How has AA been "devastating" in the black community? Gangs perhaps, drugs perhaps, unwed mothers perhaps, but how AA?

Why do you think such activities skyrocketed after the civil rights movement. After Blacks finally won equal rights?

You greatly underestimate the effects of telling somebody that they're not smart enough to compete on their own. It's an incredibly insidious thing to do, often by well-meaning people. But it's a cancerous disease, that spreads and slowly takes over, eventually inflicting more hard than even segregation did. In the segregation days, blacks were poor and mistreated, but they had their pride, communities, and personal happiness. Now they have gangs, unwed mothers, broken families, drugs, and suicide.

Affirmative action combined with welfare shattered what used to be very tight religious and social bonds in the black communities. The benefits of struggling as a group to achieve something was taken away from them. This is by far the strongest explanation. People uninformed about the facts will often claim that gangs, drugs, and unwed mothers were primarily caused by still current racism, but that thesis was completely destroyed by the war in the Sudan. The refugees that fled to the United States, all blacker than the blackest African Americans, have already reached middle class income levels.

To me racism is the belief in the inherent inferiority of another race. I don't know how AA is "racist" since it carries no such belief other than to help level the playing field.

The entire belief that the playing field needs to be leveled implies a belief in inherent inferiority.

Remember, just because you have a society that's color blind in law doesn't mean it will be color blind in results. Most people are friends mainly with people of their same background(race, class, religion). 95% of jobs aren't advertised in job ads, they are found through social networking. That's especially true of the best paying, most rewarding jobs. Placing an ad in the paper or online(which is the most democratic way of finding new applicants) is probably the last thing they do. I've seen complete dumb shi-ts get hired at previous companies only because they knew somebody that hooked them up. My previous boss, I had to quit because I couldn't stand working for such an idiot. Dude was getting paid $150k a year and half the time I'd walk in his office and he'd be on myspace or match.com. A black person wouldn't last a day in a company doing that sh*t. His ass would've been fired on the spot. F*cker had a sweet deal because he was buddies with the CEO. I never saw this CEO palling up with black people at company parties. Probably doesn't have any black buddies as most whites don't. So even with colorblind laws, racial heirarchy will continue on into the future because most people with the money and power only hang around people like themselves. And obviously due to the racist history of the country, most the people with money and power are white. Therefore whites are always going to have the natural advantage when it comes to making money. AA isn't a solution to everything, but calling it destructive...gimme a break.

Well, I've seen the reverse of your story, only he wasn't fired since he was an AA hire. So the rest of us, including a black guy who I greatly respect, had to support him and put up with it because the boss wouldn't fire him because he needed "diversity."

Even if a color blind society fails to produce relatively equal results (something I highly doubt given the history of the Irish, Chinese, and Sudanese), the natural "buddy buddy" factor is going to work proportional to the population. There is no other way it could unless the society wasn't being color blind.

If you really want an accurate opinion on the subject, ask some immigrants what they think. My serbian, russian, and even black african immigrant friends think AA and the current attitudes about it are ridiculous, and greatly harming the black community.

 

[oakraiderz2]

If you really want an accurate opinion on the subject, ask some immigrants what they think. My serbian, russian, and even black african immigrant friends think AA and the current attitudes about it are ridiculous, and greatly harming the black community.

You would think people would want to be hired because theyre qualified, not because of their race. If a company is looking for diversity in order to tap into more demographics, i think thats one thing, but being hired because your black is a slap to the face. I DO think that without AA there would be a minimal decrease in the hiring of black people. I dont think its harming the black community, but people would have more respect if black people werent hired cause they have chocolate skin.

The thing is racism isn't just whites towards blacks. It's every race against every other race. Women like to falsely claim there will never be equality, but that doesn't tell the real tale.

The biggest problem I have with people talking about equality like women and feminist do is, it's really a self-serving agenda to disfavor another group more than anything.

Yes, racism is every race against every race, fully aware of that. Women want to be treated the same in any positive way, but negative ways, such as hitting a man and getting hit back, they dont dig. BUT talking about equlity is about treating people with some goddamn respect. Treating them like a human being and not discriminating because of skin color, religion, and all of that jazz. You know what equality should be, hopefully.

 

[fertileTurtle]

I think you have the wrong forum buddy.. Why don't you go on to some Stormfront websites or some other some other "pro-America" but covert white supremacy circle jerks?

America is racist now? You're a joke, son. Many countries are way less tolerant of other cultures than America. No my country is not perfect, but we have come a long way. Call a racist a racist, but don't go crapping on my great country. The white people in America have done a lot to make things right.

And what happens when a group claims they should get anything just because they are white? We have LA RAZA and NAACP. What about the NAAWP to make it fair? What would people think if someone said I voted for a candidate JUST BECAUSE he's white. Now look at Obama. He's a black president, it's a big deal. Double standard.

And no, I'm not against national appologies and the like for slavery, even though we didn't participate in it. And I do understand to a point that people have experienced racism and want to do something about it, but people need to be proactive and stop acting like they need to cry about every injustice ever done to them. That's just life. Race is only one small point of discrimination in America. There are many others, some much worse.

 

[fertileTurtle]

I dont think its harming the black community, but people would have more respect if black people werent hired cause they have chocolate skin.

At bit off your point here. You mean that in general, but in some cases black sells more than hispanic, hispanic more than white, white more than asian, etc. Sometimes ethnicity plays a role in a product or service and sometimes people prefer to be with and identify with a certain group. I would call that racial not racist.

 

[fertileTurtle]

All nice and well, but why do blacks always have to take credit for Obama? His black father didn't even raise him.

Obama's dad was Arab/African. Mom was white. Obama is only 1/4 black. So you can't say he's black. Or can you? Apparently in America if you are 99% white and 1% black, you are black. Black and white people think this way. I've heard some sidestep the issue by calling Obama a "man of color."

 

[speakeasy]

Why do you think such activities skyrocketed after the civil rights movement. After Blacks finally won equal rights?

How on earth do you draw a link between affirmative action and the aforementioned social ills?

You greatly underestimate the effects of telling somebody that they're not smart enough to compete on their own.

You forget that for most the country's history, whites have been saying that to blacks all along. Long before anyone thought of affirmative action. Secondly, AA doesn't tell people they're not smart enough. Once again, I think you are confusing the ideology of affirmative action with a flawed policy of quotas. Most people don't support quotas, even those that support affirmative action. I certainly don't. But I do believe in the ideology of affirmative action, meaning that I recognize that some groups have been particularly singled out for historical discrimination and kept from progressing, and you have policies that try to rectify that imbalance. The same is being done in some other countries like Brazil where you have a ruling class of wealthy white Brazilians(descendants of slave owners) that have almost all the money and power and then the descendants of slaves, the black Brazilians living in favelas(shantytowns). Same sh*t. Their government has started an affirmative action program to try and get more blacks Brazilians into college so they have a chance. And just like whites in America, the white Brazilians walk around oblivious to the fact that they are the ones that caused the inequality in the first place.

Affirmative action combined with welfare shattered what used to be very tight religious and social bonds in the black communities.

Welfare was a serious problem, but that has nothing to do with affirmative action. Like I said, affirmative action doesn't necessarily = lowering standards to let in unqualified people. Nor does it mean everyone that benefited from affirmative action wasn't qualified. I got into a magnet school when I was a kid. Given that black kids were under-represented in magnet school in this area, it was easy for me to get in despite the competition. I wasn't a retard, I was as smart as any other student. But they especially wanted to make sure black kids had a chance to get in since there werne't many of them in the program. So I see no issue with it.

The entire belief that the playing field needs to be leveled implies a belief in inherent inferiority.

No, it implies that things have been historically stacked against certain groups and that the momentum of that imbalance didn't just disappear with the stroke of a pen signing the civil rights act. Like I said in my last reply, the good old boys network is alive and well. There are studies showing that blacks make less income than whites. Black unemployment is usually double that for the white rate. People screaming about a 10% unemployment rate for America. Hell, 10% is NORMAL for black people. It's probably more like 20% unemployment for black people now, if it's 10% for white people.

Well, I've seen the reverse of your story, only he wasn't fired since he was an AA hire. So the rest of us, including a black guy who I greatly respect, had to support him and put up with it because the boss wouldn't fire him because he needed "diversity."

Even if a color blind society fails to produce relatively equal results (something I highly doubt given the history of the Irish, Chinese, and Sudanese), the natural "buddy buddy" factor is going to work proportional to the population. There is no other way it could unless the society wasn't being color blind.

If you really want an accurate opinion on the subject, ask some immigrants what they think. My serbian, russian, and even black african immigrant friends think AA and the current attitudes about it are ridiculous, and greatly harming the black community.

I'll sum a respond to your last three paragraphs like this, most whites simply are ignorant of what the reality is for black people. I'm not calling names or anything, I'm stating that as a literal fact. Whites tend to think everything is fair and equal between the races even when the data show that's not the case. They are ignorant of the data for the most part, which is why so many whites think they are being put upon with affirmative action. If they simply knew how much better whites have it than blacks, they might not react such a way. It's always been that way, even during Jim Crow times, white opinion polls showed they felt that blacks complained too much and didn't have it so bad. Even during slavery, they stereotyped blacks as being happy go lucky, grining and smiling under their slavemaster, when in reality their lives were hell on earth. Yet you wouldn't know know it by looking at all the blackface artwork that whites made in that era. I think you should read this study, and Ketosix should ESPECIALLY read it.

http://www.cir-usa.org/articles/177.html

Obama's dad was Arab/African.

Oh please, stop with this "Obama's dad was half Arab" nonsense. This is the man we're talking about here: http://www.obama-mccain.info/shared/images/obama-father-2.jpg

That guy couldn't get any more negroid. Does he look only half black to you? I think this confusion about the race of Obama's dad comes from the fact that he was Muslim. And somehow people think because he was Muslim he must've been half Arab. Yet for someone reason people keep saying it. All they have to do is look at his picture and see.

Mom was white. Obama is only 1/4 black. So you can't say he's black. Or can you? Apparently in America if you are 99% white and 1% black, you are black. Black and white people think this way. I've heard some sidestep the issue by calling Obama a "man of color."

That's called "The One Drop Rule": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule

Keep in mind, it was whites that made up that rule, not blacks. They did it in order to enforce white racial purity by declaring anyone that had even a drop of non-white blood to be non-white. So that their gene pool wouldn't be "contaminated" by non-whites, even if the guy with only a drop of black actually LOOKED white.



Aaaaaaaaaaaaaany way...wasn't this thread about gays?

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

I don't know how AA is "racist" since it carries no such belief other than to help level the playing field.

What if whites that support affirmative action do so because they truly believe that blacks are genetically less capable than whites and needed proactive help in securing jobs they wouldn't otherwise be able to secure on their own?


There are those within the black community, not nearly as vocal as most, that believe that white condescension is much worse than overt racism.

For them, a typical black grows up in a government housing project, goes to a government school, gets a government mandated affirmative action job, and ends up in a government prison.

Remember Ronald Reagan said that scariest words ANYBODY could hear were:

"I'm from the government, and I want to help"

STUPID BLACK MEN

 

[speakeasy]

What if whites that support affirmative action do so because they truly believe that blacks are genetically less capable than whites and needed proactive help in securing jobs they wouldn't otherwise be able to secure on their own?

People that have such beliefs about inherent black inferiority(such as the people on sites like stormfront) are the staunchest opponents of affirmative action. So I can't see such people supporting the policy, which they view as "anti-white".

There are those within the black community, not nearly as vocal as most, that believe that white condescension is much worse than overt racism.

I'm still not seeing what affirmative action has to do with condescension. Maybe it'll get to the point one day where we won't need any of these policies, I hope that's the case. I just wonder if the shoe was on the other foot, how would whites feel about it? Let's say millions of white slaves were taken to an African country and severely oppressed for centuries. Now these whites are set free. Well guess what, all the blacks would have the power and influence and the whites would have nothing. What if some sympathetic black leaders said, "hey, we've held back whites from education and having decent jobs for centuries and that's has much to do with whites having a high poverty rate. Let's take efforts to increase white enrollment in college. And since so many blacks tend to have good old boys network where they only hire fellow blacks for the best, highest paying positions, we should try to make sure they try are not being discriminatory and they are hiring whites as well, so long as those whites are qualified." Now I wonder how many whites would be mad about this if the shoe was on their foot.

For them, a typical black grows up in a government housing project, goes to a government school, gets a government mandated affirmative action job, and ends up in a government prison.

That path is hardly anything "typical" and anyone that thinks so is delusional.

Remember Ronald Reagan said that scariest words ANYBODY could hear were:

"I'm from the government, and I want to help"

I'm not interested in politician's folksy, empty slogans. I'm interested in what they actually DO. The government GREW under Reagan, as it did under both Bushes. Despite all the conservative rhetoric about smaller less intrusive government. Ron Paul is probably the only conservative that ran for president who would've actually shrank the government.

 

[Irs88]

i just read the first post but how are gay people banding together as a minority for rights like blacks any different from women banding together in the 1950s?

I believe its the same thing.

What annoys me the most is, im just putting out facts here, in the California prop 8 act. It basically gives rights to gay people. It didn't pass obviously.

What I found very interesting was that almost all african american people voted against gay rights. How can they go against it if they were in their position(fighting for rights), a mere 50 years ago?

I know its due to a lot of them being christian but it really pissed me off. I would have totally supported ur movement on minority rights...how can u be so hypocritical when a fellow minority group asking for rights rises?

 

[Irs88]

Just an observation. When did being gay become like being black or a minority? Have you noticed, if you say something deragatory about a gay person, it's as if you uttered a racial slur? I think it's outrageous that gay people try to equate the minor bigotry they've faced with the long civli rights struggle that blacks and other minorities had to endure. It's fascinating how gays have maneuvered their sexual orientation into playing the victim.

gays have been through a lot man. Do you know how many religions despise/kill gay people? In some countries(villages), if your son is gay, you are pretty much looked down upon by the WHOLE village as an inferior person. How until now, most gay people were not in the open because of religions and society percieved them as genetically disesaed or not real?

I personally see handicapped, native americans, african americans, early asian immigrants in CA, gay rights, women rights all to be in the same minority group but with different degrees of hate(if thats the right word)

 

[speakeasy]

i just read the first post but how are gay people banding together as a minority for rights like blacks any different from women banding together in the 1950s?

Outside of gays being allowed to openly serve in the military(which Obama has pledged to end), what rights are gays being denied? Oh...the right to marry someone of the same sex. So what? Bisexual people are denied the right to marry both a man and a woman.

What annoys me the most is, im just putting out facts here, in the California prop 8 act. It basically gives rights to gay people.

Gays already have the right to have civil unions in California that give all the same rights of marriage anyway. If you look beyond the surface, it has nothing to do with rights whatsoever, it's about forcing society to embrace homosexuality. Unless you've been in a coma the last decade, you'd see an almost feverish push by the media to make society embrace homosexuality. Queer eye for the straight gay, queer as folk, brokeback mountain, gay dating shows on MTV(everytime I flip past MTV I see some show about 2 guys dating), gay reality shows, that freak Perez Hilton, gays always being portrayed in TV shows and movies as these warm, gentle, lovable people to be protected who are even more human than straights when in reality there are gay azzholes too. When's the last time you've ever seen a gay as the antagonist in a sitcom or movie? The media is so pushing the gay agenda it's ridiculous.

What I found very interesting was that almost all african american people voted against gay rights. How can they go against it if they were in their position(fighting for rights), a mere 50 years ago?

As an african american who voted in favor of it myself, I have nothing against gay rights, in fact I support them, I simply don't believe in altering the definition of marriage as it's been for 10,000 years of human history. I don't consider that being against gay rights, because number one, it's not a RIGHT to get married in the first place. There's nothing in the Constitution saying everyone has the right to marry whoever they want. I just consider it common sense. Give them civil unions, let them call their unions something else, and stop trying to force heteros to embrace their way of life using courts and judges.

I don't hate gays in the least or wish them any bad. If a gay man were running as president and I agreed with him, I'd campaign for him myself. But I'm never going to take the view that homosexuality is something desirable or something that should be held in equal value as heterosexuality. Now here's some nuance, because I view homosexuality behavior as something undesirable doesn't mean I view the homosexual himself as undesirable or less of a human than me. I don't define people's entirety by who they sleep with.

Somewhere in the last 10-15 years, the gay movement shifted from gay "tolerance" to gay "acceptance". I think there's a difference. We should definitely tolerate it, I even accept it in many ways, but I don't accept it ABSOLUTELY, in the sense that I could care less whether they are reading gay story books to kids in school like that teacher was doing in Massachusetts. Many parents didn't like this teacher forcing her views of homosexuality on the children and I don't blame them. Especially given that 97% of the population is straight, yet we have to bend over backwards to accommodate them.

Also, one last thing, before you go "blaming" blacks for the passage of prop 8, read the article from CNN I posted way at the begging of this thread. It correctly points out that 60% of prop 8's voters were white and 10% were black. So the gay movement needs to stop hanging the whole issue on blacks.

gays have been through a lot man. Do you know how many religions despise/kill gay people?

As far as I know, Islamic countries are the only ones where gays can be sentenced to death. And even then, that's not even all Islamic countries. Gays aren't killed in Israel, Christian countries, Buddhist countries or Hindu countries. Yes, gays have been through a lot of terrible sh*t, I won't disagree at all.

In some countries(villages), if your son is gay, you are pretty much looked down upon by the WHOLE village as an inferior person. How until now, most gay people were not in the open because of religions and society percieved them as genetically disesaed or not real?

Maybe so, but we don't have any control over how other cultures perceive gays. I can only address the situation in my own nation. I mean there's way worse things going on in the world than dislike of gays. Things like child slavery and child prostitution which is still rampant in many developing countries ranks way higher up in my list of worries.

I personally see handicapped, native americans, african americans, early asian immigrants in CA, gay rights, women rights all to be in the same minority group but with different degrees of hate(if thats the right word)

You're entitled to your opinion, but I couldn't disagree more. Each group has unique struggles and just lumping them all into one bland group of "minorities" doesn't do the issues any justice. Btw, I'd hardly consider handicapped to be minorities. Anyone of any background, status or class can become handicapped simply by getting in a car accident. I don't see how that conveys some minority status.

 

[Irs88]

speakeasy-

1) They don't have equal rights as marriage people

States in the U.S. with domestic partnerships or similar status granting some of the rights of marriage include:

* Reciprocal Beneficiary Relationships in Hawaii (1997);
* Domestic Partnerships in Maine (2004);
* Domestic Partnerships in Maryland (2008);
* Domestic Partnerships in New Jersey (2004);
* Designated Beneficiary Agreements in Colorado (2009).
* Domestic Partnerships in Wisconsin (2009).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_unions#California

I remember there were some certain laws that were passed that didn't give civil rights the same ones as marriages. Also from that same wikipedia article:

"The federal government does not recognize these unions, and under the U.S. Defense of Marriage Act of 1996 (DOMA), other U.S. states are not obliged to recognize them."

2) The contemporary definition of marriage is now a days to a lot of kids is not bible driven, but a mere acceptance that being in a marriage makes it an actual family, and civil unions are fake families(looks on it in a condescending manner as in it is not good enough as marriage) For this reason, everyone should not give this condescending look to civil unions or we should all just be able to get married.

3) Maybe now they are not killed, but they were a long while ago. I know in indian villages, being gay is VERY looked down upon. you are pretty much a disgrace to your whole family. Some extremist kill them too. Maybe african americans had it a lot worse, I'm just saying that gay people DID have some hardships to go through.

4)

"Maybe so, but we don't have any control over how other cultures perceive gays. I can only address the situation in my own nation. I mean there's way worse things going on in the world than dislike of gays. Things like child slavery and child prostitution which is still rampant in many developing countries ranks way higher up in my list of worries."

But thats the same attitude we had when women were asking for rights. Most people just said, u guys aren't important right now, we got WW2 going on blahbalh. Of course there are greater problems then...but It still was a problem then...just like gay rights is still a problem(maybe not a significant one). There might be other big problems....but how easy is it to fix this problem? Just give them their rights(sign a paper)...thats ALL you have to do. Then you can focus on other time consuming problems like the economy.

5)

"It correctly points out that 60% of prop 8's voters were white and 10% were black. So the gay movement needs to stop hanging the whole issue on blacks."

The reason I brought it up wasn't because they were to BLAME for the result of the vote, of course whites has more influence number wise. The reason I brought them up is to show how the MAJORITY of them didn't want gay rights to exist. The reason is how this majority can be hypocritical because that same majority were in the SAME position as gays were, BUT are on the side that africans themselves fought AGAINST 30-40 yrs ago.

6) I meant partially mental retardness.....not handicapped physically. my bad. Think about the movie "I am Sam" with sean penn to understand what I mean.

Nice having an intelligent discussion with you btw.

 

[Irs88]

Quit playing strawman because I think you're missing my point, dude. I'm simply saying that homosexuality cannot be compared to race in the least. Because while you can identify a black person from a mile away, you do not always know you are talking to a gay unless the person decides to say so or he makes it obvious. I once knew a guy who was gay. Had seen him coming to our friend's parties for a few years. Seemed like your typical all-American budweiser and football kinda dude you'd see at a sports bar. Then one day out of nowhere he was talking about how fine some guy is that he works with and that he wants him. Now up until that moment I hadn't a clue the dude was gay, and I have pretty good gaydar. My point is, if he didn't come right out and say he was gay, nobody would've known. Now that obvious doesn't work with being an racial minority. People know I'm black upfront and I may be discriminated against or harassed by cops without having said a word or done a thing. A gay has the freedom to avoid all that easily by choosing who and who not to make themselves known to. That's why some racial minorities don't agree with comparing the two. Open gays may face social stigma but they have CHOICE that racial minorities DON'T HAVE.


Well for all the discrimination they supposedly face, I'd like someone to explain why gays make well above the median average income. Blacks under Jim Crow sure as hell didn't.

I might be biased on saying this, but I can tell a gay person is gay sometimes. From the way they are dressing, talking, walking, etc. It might take a little longer to identify if he is gay(certain clothing makes you appear gay/metro), BUT this prolonged timing STILL qualifies the gay person to being discriminated,

IMO, the time difference an african american and a gay person would take to get discriminated doesn't matter because at the end of the day....they are STILL being discriminated against, and that is a BIG no no