The Myth of the Quality Woman

[ketostix]

Honestly, it seems as if this is really just belying your own insecurities and fear about love and women.

Any negative thing a guy says about women's nature must be only in the guy's imagination. When have I head that before from a woman?

Obviously what you have claimed is untrue. How many stories have you heard of women who won't get out of a bad relationship? With a man who cheats/hits/treats her like crap? This is a very classic scenario. How come she doesn't trade up? Even when he is nowhere near the best looking guy out there? Why does she stay?

To be honest I don't really hear of many of these stories that are verifiable. Sure they happen but these relationships don't last either. But your example is neither here or there. We're discussing quality, healthy relationships not what morons do. Let me ask you a question. You ever wondered, if for whatever reason, that's what she wants, drama and sympathy and to be abused. And if he became a good guy, and the relationship became "good" she would leave him? I never said that women can't be loyal for a time to a certain guy. As a matter of fact I said that way back in this thread. But for whatever time she's with the guy I doubt it's because she likes him despite he's "abusive". She likes the treatment not necessarily him.

Women are emotional, maternal creatures. Believe it or not, its true. You may just be used to dealing with young immature brats and b!tch wh0res, but I see it all the time. The woman constantly "taking care" of her man, while he is really just running game or too immature to even be in a LTR. Its gross! I wish my friends had some self respect or even just some self esteem!

Honestly this is a paragraph of contradictions and unlikely claims that I won't go through. But even if one assumed your friends were representative of most women, It really sounds like these women are the one's that don't really want to be in a LTR and are immature. If they wanted to be in a LTR they'd be with guys that do also. So your example to prove women are quality and faithful seem bogus by reason alone let alone by most guys' experience.

I will give you this much though. I do see and know of very attractive and desirable girls who choose guys that are annoying, repulsive and I don't know kind of dumb over the guys I see that have redeeming qualities. But again, this isn't really the point being debated.

On the other hand, how stereotypical is it to hear about the man "trading up" to a younger, hotter version of his woman? This happens all the time. Men are constantly looking for something better.

How stereotypical is it always to hear stereotypes that portray men negatively as the bad guys and women as saints? Yours is just one more.

This idea of yours just seems completely backwards! There are superficial women AND men out there. Avoid them!

It seems backwards because your a female basically and are not seeing things objectively from the other side. I never said there weren't superficial men too. Yes, avoid them. That would be avoiding most women but the argument here was how women are deceptively unfaithful and lack integrity.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

I have covered this before you know? But let me build on this a bit.

The Myth of the "Quality" Woman

It seems like all I read about on SoSuave these days is a never ending quest for a "Quality Woman." There's been threads asking for clear definitions of what constitutes a "Quality" woman and others that conveniently set women up into 2 camps - Quality women and Horz, as if there were no middle ground. How easy it becomes to qualify a woman based on her indiscrretions (as heinous as they're perceived to be) for either of these catagories. This is binary thinking at its best - on or off, black or white, Quality woman or Hor.

I think the term 'Quality' woman is a misnomer. Guys tend to apply this term at their leisure not so much to define what they'd like in a woman (which is actually an idealization), but rather to exclude women with whom they'd really had no chance with in the first place, or mistakenly applied too much effort and too much focus to only to be rebuffed. This isn't to say that there aren't women who will behvaes maliciously or indiscriminately, nor am I implying that they ought to be excused out of hand for such behavior. What I am saying is that it's very AFC to hold women up to preconceived idealizations and conveniently discount them as being less than "Quality" when you're unable to predict, much less control their behaviors.

The dangers inherent in this AFC convention is that the AFC (or the DJ subscribing to the convention) then self-limits to only what he perceives as a Quality woman, based on a 'sour-grapes' conditioning. Thus, they end up with a "Quality" woman by default because she's the only candidate who would accept him for her intimacy. It becomes a self-fulfiling prophecy by process of elmination. Taken to its logical conclusion, they shoot the arrow, paint the target around it and call it a bullseye, and after which they'll feel good for having held to a (misguided) conviction. They make their necessity a virtue, and are comforted in a sense of self-righteous conviction for "choosing" who they did, when in fact the choice was made for them by this necessity.

So why is this a social convention then? Because it is socially unassailable. Since this convention is rooted to a binary premise, no one would likely challenge it. It would be foolish for me to say "Yes Mr. DJ I think you ought to avoid what you think of as Quality women." Not only this, but we all get a certain satisfaction from the affirmation that comes from other men confirming our assessment of what catagory a woman should fit into. Thus it becomes socially reinforced and the convention perpetuates itself.

Bear in mind that value is almost never objective; value is based on perception. Be careful of making a Quality woman your substitute for a ONEitis idealization.

 

[squirrels]

There are plenty of "quality" women out there. If by "quality", you don't necessarily mean "someone who will take the misery out of your life and make you happy".

The average man doesn't understand (yet) that HE is responsible for his own happiness. No one else can bring it to him. True joy comes from within. Joy from without is paired with misery and conflict by nature, because it inevitably comes with a price.

Be happy yourself first. Then seek a woman who knows how to be happy by HERself. And then maybe you can be happy by yourselves, TOGETHER.

It bugs me the way that sometimes the "mature man" forum acts like "AFC" behavior is somehow justified in later years because we "grew up". It's not a different game. It's the same game with different facets.

 

[joekerr31]

What I'm saying is it seems men are more apt to form an almost familial bond of integrity with a woman, whereas women are more inclined to treat it as a business venture for her gain and the man is easily replacable if he stops delivering or a bigger better deal comes along.

this is a good point. i believe this phenomena occurs because a man sees his wife almost in the same context that he sees his children - as dependents. he sees it as his responsibility to look after her.

whereas with a lot of women, they don't see it as their job to look after their man.

this is why i've said that a lot of women are like children.

but a good woman will recognize that to 'keep' her man she has to look after him. she has to take care of his needs.

men who stay with women who don't realize this and don't look after their needs are wasting their time.

 

[Firepower]

I asked him if he believed that these women were the "rule" or the "exception", and we both agreed that the overwhelming majority of women fall into this category. I'm not talking 60% here. I'm talking well over 90%. Probably more like 98-99%.

So what defines a woman who DOES NOT fit into this category?

A fugly.

Hot women have none of the qualities that men are demanded to posses in order to have character. Hot women have been corrupted from ass-kissing since 4 years old. Look into the eyes of a cute niece or sister when they push the limits of a confronting authority. Even children are cognizant of their power.

We all are born with looks and did nothing to earn them; if you were granted all power simply because you possessed a quality you did nothing to earn, you would have hidden contempt for your worshipers.

We are here to nail hb's, not praise them. If it's character you seek, marry a hb5 in a wheelchair hehe

 

[Señor Fingers]

STR8UP is right. A women will never be 100% yours...but shouldn't we be questioning if ownership is the healthiest frame for a relationship to begin with?

IMHO, the instant you think she is "yours" you have begun your downhill slump into complacency, increasing the odds that she will get tired of being taken for granted.

We like use pretty words like "unconditional-love" and "soul mates" but these are just mythical ideals. The most sobering part of growing up is realizing that love is very conditional and at times is hard fukking work. In the final analysis, a woman is about as ownable as your full time job.

Just imagine if you showed up to work one day, and decided you could play video games and jack off to porn for hours. Only a fool would drop his guard like this with the rationale of "Well, it's MY job" Anyone with half a brain knows they must meet certain requirements if they don't want to end up on the street.

Only a bigger fool would blame his job for getting fired: "Can you believe they wouldn't let me play Halo and ejaculate on my keyboard? There are no good jobs left on the market!"

The truth is you can't own anyone, but you can certainly earn their loyalty and respect in the way you handle the relationship, your partner and most importantly, yourself.

 

[joekerr31]

senor, good post.

and this is why spinning plates works in the dating scene.

basically, the winning formula is to be an employee that multiple employers want to hire. you can't lose with that formula.

be the guy that multiple women want to date.

as for marriage, as long as your wife / employer, knew the you who was in high demand then they will always remember not to take you for granted. however, if they married an AFC, well, don't expect things to end well.

 

[STR8UP]

Sorry Rollo, forgot about that. I tend to ramble when i get something on my mind.

I just get the idea that a lot of men are a bit too optimistic about the true nature of women. Or even of ppl in general.

The truth is HARSH, but i think it's important to know what you are really up against, to be able to understand the "enemy", so to speak.

I think it's too easy to sweep certain things under the rug, especially if you are in a relationship. It's a hard pill to swallow when you have to think of it in such raw terms when you have a woman in your life.

More later......

 

[joekerr31]

I just get the idea that a lot of men are a bit too optimistic about the true nature of women. Or even of ppl in general.

agree 100% !!!!

but we also have to be careful not to overdue it and fool ourselves that all human interaction is ultimately shallow and parasitic in nature.

i do believe, with some human beings, it is possible to have symbiotic relationships - where the whole is greater than the parts.

im proud of most guys here because for whatever the reason, they avoided the marriage trap in their 20s - and most women in their 20s are living in fantasy land and you as a male are merely a means of trying to make that fantasy a reality.

but when you get into your 30s, and women get into their late 20s, you should recognize that in both groups there is a subsection of folks who have unplugged from the matrix. there are good women out there that won't ruin your life!

 

[STR8UP]

let me tell you this much, a high quality woman is worth 10000 times her weight in gold. she will genuinely care and support you moreso than your male friends probably will.

Yes, but unfortunately they are also as RARE as gold.

Have you ever panned for gold? It's a lot of fun.

Unfortunately I have only done it with "mine concentrate" that I bought at the mine itself, where you go out back and pan it out and usually there's a little gold in it. I think I paid $20 for the gallon of ore and ended up with a small $30-$40 nugget and another $10-20 of flakes. Not bad.

Anyway, I've never had the pleasure of getting down in the river and turning over rocks and digging in cracks and crevasses to find my OWN gold, but I have seen what others have come up with and it's usually a couple hundred bucks worth for a couple hundred hours of time.

Wouldn't it be great if we could find "quality woman concentrate"? Too bad it doesn't work like that. It's almost more luck than it is anything to be able to find the right claim and land one of these elusive creatures.

2) i know RT doesn't like the term, but i do believe there are high quality women in the world. i do believe there are women who try to make the world a better place. they volunteer and help people who are in need. they take care of their families, their husband, their children, and ask very little in return. there are TONS of good women who do stand by their man until their dying day.

I don't like the term either.

The biggest part of the problem is that it takes a lifetime to really get a handle on who you are dealing with. Okay, maybe not a LIFETIME, but I would say it does take many years, if not DECADES, and then there is still no guarantee.

I can assure you of one thing though....the length of time it takes to be 90% sure about someone is MUCH longer than most women are willing to wait for a real commitment.

so many guys on here are pinning for hte hb8+s. and this is not going to go over well, but i do believe that the ratios of high quality women drops SIGNIFICANTLY in the hb8+ category.

I agree. That's why I like the 7.5's, lol

now, across the female population as a whole, we're probably looking at about 10% who are kind, caring, nurturing, empathic - ie. one who would be a good life partner and a good mother.

Okay, lets eliminate the 1-5's and th 8-10's. You're left with the 6-7 range (I don't know about you but i don't think i could go below MY idea of a 6 for an LTR).

Take out the ones who aren't attracted to you for whatever reason, and that leaves a pretty damn small pool.

while i hate going against RT, because he's so insightful, i still hold that there is a spectrum of high to low quality women in the world. and yes, a woman will behave high quality for a while if her IL in you is really high, but in time her low qualities will come out.

I am of the opinion that women are fundamentally the same at their core.

They are weak, emotionally driven, and opportunistic. They are prone to making decisions based more upon conditions rather than convictions.

Some of them may SUPRESS their nature better than others, but only a fool would believe that he has the foresight to KNOW he has found one of these rare women of who we speak, without many, many years of proof.

there are high quality women all over the place. the fact that they dress more moderately, that they are somewhat more shy, that they aren't super flirts, and as a result escape your notice, does not mean they do not exist.

Sounds like my ex g/f, for two great years. It was all fun and games until she started to believe that her emotional needs weren't being met, and while I was in New Orleans for a couple of days she found what I call an "intimacy surrogate". I doubt she fukked him, but she fessed up to getting kissed, and that was enough for me. At that point the REAL woman came out. The liar, the cheater, the manipulator.

Man did she put on a good mask for two years!

and yes, they are hard to find. many of them are taken. as a result maybe 1 in 100 women that you see would qualify as 'high quality'. that's why its sooo important to be able to recognize the signs of a high quality woman, because if you don't knwo the signs, they will just blend in with all the other women and you won't even know you bumped in to one.

I would agree with your number.

So if it's only 1 in 100, then why can't you just call it like it is, cause if that's accurate then 99 out of 100 of us ain't gonna end up with her.

I'm not a betting man, but if I were I wouldn't wager much on those odds.

Might as well call it what it is.....a myth.

 

[STR8UP]

i disagree with this notion that all women are cheaters or will jump ship the moment something better comes along. a lot will, but a lot won't also.

But the kicker is that it's tough to tell which will and which won't.

Not all women will DO it, but all women have the capacity to do it.

i dont think this is something men have to be afraid of in anyway. IL is often a mutual thing. its rare that one persons IL is high and the other's is low.

I don't know about that.

Women's attraction mechanism is much more fickle than a man's.

I have a friend who is still chasing around his cheating wife kissing her ass at every turn in hopes that one day she will straighten up. Totally inverse IL's.

 

[STR8UP]

She may say she "loves" you, and she may believe deep down in her very heart of hearts that it is true, and she may tell all her friends she loves you, and she may even stand up in a church and swear before GOD that she will put you before all others and be faithful to you forever ------ BUT -- when she's bored, or lonely, or the wind changes in just the right way, or some guy sparks an interest in her, then she WILL do what she wants do do, and then "back-rationalize" it so that she's not "wrong."

Just be aware of that possibility.

It can happen, and DOES happen.
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Very eloquently put.

This is EXACTLY what I'm trying to say.

 

[STR8UP]

You are right, joker , that a man may be as likely to want out of a marriage/relationship as a woman, BUT --- when a woman decides she wants out, she frequently will play a little game and drag a man along. A man CAN'T always tell when she's about to leave. The "signs" you talk about are not always there.

I have gotten pretty good at being able to spot these signs, although it's sometimes difficult when you are in a first person POV.

My concern is that I am going to end up with a hair trigger when it comes to this sh!t cause I've been dragged through the mud more than my share.

 

[STR8UP]

What I'm saying is it seems men are more apt to form an almost familial bond of integrity with a woman, whereas women are more inclined to treat it as a business venture for her gain and the man is easily replacable if he stops delivering or a bigger better deal comes along.

Fukking BRILLIANT quote!

That's why a woman loses interest, dumps a guy, and turns into a solid block of ice, losing the ability to see ANY good that came from the relationship.

This always perplexed me.

I always wondered why it was that a chick would dump me and the next day would have the attitude that you had just cheated her out of x months or x years of her life, completely oblivioous to the good times you shared.

That sh!t used to eat at me from the inside out.

But now I understand it.

A woman does not love you! If she did, she would not be able to shut you out like that.

 

[ketostix]

Fukking BRILLIANT quote!

That's why a woman loses interest, dumps a guy, and turns into a solid block of ice, losing the ability to see ANY good that came from the relationship.

This always perplexed me.

I always wondered why it was that a chick would dump me and the next day would have the attitude that you had just cheated her out of x months or x years of her life, completely oblivioous to the good times you shared.

That sh!t used to eat at me from the inside out.

But now I understand it.

A woman does not love you! If she did, she would not be able to shut you out like that.

Yeah that's how I've seen it. The only way most men and women are similar is both can form familial bonds of integrity. But in a romantic relationship I see a lot of men form an almost familial bond of integrity like he would with say his sister. That is, through thick and thin you still love her. That's because you love her for who she is, not just for what she brings to you at table. When you have such a self-interest and it's not really about the other person, when someone else comes along you're easily replaced.

I just don't see that many women that are in it with a guy for who he really is. But a woman that is in it for you is what I call a quality woman of integrity. I just don't see many women acting with integrity in anything they do, not doing what they say is just one broad example. So it's no real surprise to me that there isn't many quality woman out there. It just seems women's nature is to live in an adoloscent or childish fantasy world where integrity isn't real.

I know rollo said that it's binary way of thinking but why the fvck should men not be able to hold women to the same standard of integrity that she would have with her child for instance? When you start getting too far into everything is a shade of gray, you end up with no standards and nothing but chaos. That's a woman's way of thinking.

 

[Victory Unlimited]

Fukking BRILLIANT quote!

That's why a woman loses interest, dumps a guy, and turns into a solid block of ice, losing the ability to see ANY good that came from the relationship.

This always perplexed me.

I always wondered why it was that a chick would dump me and the next day would have the attitude that you had just cheated her out of x months or x years of her life, completely oblivioous to the good times you shared.

That sh!t used to eat at me from the inside out.

But now I understand it.

A woman does not love you! If she did, she would not be able to shut you out like that.

Yo Str8up,

I would point out that along with INTEGRITY, another characteristic that differentiates a woman qualified to be included in your life is her ability and willingness to make a SIGNIFICANT emotional investment in YOU.

I wrote the following message for another reason, but I think that it may offer you yet another perspective besides the "A woman doesn't love YOU" observation that you may have encountered. Yes, here's ANOTHER reason why a woman can "totally flip on you" when it comes to "loving you" one minute, then "hating you" the next:

MOST women are lifelong actresses. They have been perfecting their "craft" since birth. They are skilled at saying one thing and meaning another. They are skilled at acting one way while FEELING another way entirely. Many do this as some eschewed means of self-preservation or conflict avoidance. But there are also those who do this to RUN A POWER MOVE on you.

This is why you must always only be cautiously optimistic about whatever good signals a woman gives you early on in your romantic interactions with them. Many here believe that most women are so erratic only due to their inability to control their emotions. And while this may be true, I disagree that this is the ONLY reason. In fact, I believe that at least an EQUAL number of the more "maliciously manipulative" women really have quite a firm grasp on their emotions.

And those that fit THIS particular category are the ones who ACT, they put on a PERFORMANCE to attract you, to bait you in-------THEN that's when they "decide" whether or not to let you get within range to affect their emotions.

And if they find you "wanting" for any reason whatsoever, THAT'S when they drop your ass for what you may think is "no reason" whatsoever. In fact, it is because they have been ACTING all along that many women like this are even ABLE to do this.

You see, a man can only have a significant emotional impact on SOME women only when she opens the door to allow him to. And that's the objective of the whole ACTING scenario in a nutshell. If a woman deems you worthy enough for her to DROP HER ACT, then that announces the beginning of her willingness to expose herself emotionally to you.

And ironically, this also explains why the reverse is also true. Many guys in long term relationships WONDER how it is a woman that they have been with for years can (seemingly) drop them coldly, callously, and quickly at the END of the relationship.

Well NOW you know the reason, don't you, soldier?

It's because at some point she "decided" to AGAIN close herself off emotionally towards them, and then, out of either self-preservation OR malicious manipulativeness, WENT BACK TO ACTING-----just like she was doing at the START of the relationship.

This is why you should NEVER put too much stock in how a woman "ACTS" around you UNTIL you have experienced a reasonably lengthy amount of time of her demonstrating CONSISTENTLY good behavior towards you. This way, you at least have enough HISTORY with her to reference as you evaluate the legitimacy of her feelings towards you.

So use this Intel to better serve you in your battle to differentiate between women who are worthy of YOUR emotional investment from those who are NOT. Those women who make significant emotional investment into YOU will be the ones that will exercise MORE integrity in regards to her relationship with you.

Yes, the number is SMALL. But they DO exist. If a man hasn't found one---by all means, STAY HAPPILY SINGLE. Because only a FOOL would KNOWINGLY cast his pearls (his emotional/spiritual/financial/physical etc. investments) before swine (women who are UNDESERVING to receive his commitment to her, OR ill-equiped to honor it properly).

In fact, I would question why ANY man would even attempt to enter into marriage or ANY other kind of serious commitment with a woman who DOESN'T differentiate herself from the hosts, of huddled, hopelessly self-absorbed masses that comprise the vast majority of women in the world today.

However, when and if a man does find one who IS deserving, the "rarity" of that find SHOULD give the wise man pause-----a pause that's PREGNANT with the possibilities of what he thinks his life could be like if he discovers he really HAS found a TRUE female ally-----one with which he CAN actually fight his way through life with...as opposed to AGAINST.

March on.

 

[STR8UP]

So you are saying that when a woman is no longer interested and/or finds another "branch" she is acting when she shows no more positive feelings toward you?

I don't know about anyone else, but the women I have dealt with would have had to have been the best actresses in the world...Oscar worthy...to pull this off.

I don't see it.

I have peered into their souls.

I have looked into the eyes of a woman I spent YEARS of my life with, who a week earlier would have sold her soul to the DEVIL to be with me and saw the coldest imaginable emotional void when she deemed me to be expendable.

It's as if I had served my purpose and am no longer needed. But this is usually ONLY WHEN SHE STARTS SEEING SOMEONE NEW.

I can't even begin to describe the emotion associated with looking a woman in the eye who you care(d) about deeply, who shows no compassion, remorse, love, concern, etc etc after she decides you are no longer needed, but I'm sure pretty much every man in this world has felt the same feeling so I don't think I have to.

But at least I can take solace in knowing that I am now "enlightened" to the facts....that I was simply a means to an end.....a temporary stepping stone on a woman's road to the "greener pasture".

Call me a callous, jaded motherfukker (one of my female friends pretty much did recently) but no woman is going to get that deep ever again without YEARS of proving herself. And even then I will never give that much of myself cause I know it's usually asking for trouble.

 

[aliasguy]

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STR*UP wrote: (among other stufff

"Call me a callous, jaded motherfukker (one of my female friends pretty much did recently) but no woman is going to get that deep ever again without YEARS of proving herself. And even then I will never give that much of myself cause I know it's usually asking for trouble."



Yep, brother, sounds like you've got a handle on 'em, now.

Sad, but true.

That's how we have to see it. They will do as they do.

Accept, and understand.
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[ketostix]

I think what it is, is more than acting is a woman has a "weak" frame not based in integrity but based on an emotional response to an opportunity she's accepting at the time. When she no longer sees the man she's with as the fortunate oportunity, or sees a bigger better deal available then the emotional response is gone in an instant and like you and everything you did before together never mattered. There's no integrity. It's not so much an act as it was the nature of women to go through the motions and emotions of caring about the guy when it really wasn't about the guy. Emotions are fleeting and are basically the anti-thesis of having integrity. For all practical purpose though it wasn't much more than an act.

So bottom line a relationship or commitment with a woman is meaningless and almost worthless no matter how good it might seem at the time because it's not based on a solid nonchanging foundation. I guess you just have to accept women for what they are and try to enjoy it anyway.

 

[Victory Unlimited]

So you are saying that when a woman is no longer interested and/or finds another "branch" she is acting when she shows no more positive feelings toward you?

No.

I'm actually saying the OPPOSITE.


What I'm saying is that initially, many women ACT like they're more interested in you than they really are. THEN when they DO finally buy into you, they drop their act and really DO begin to like you as much as they acted like they did initially. In other words, they really DO start to invest in a man emotionally during THAT phase.

THEN, when the relationship starts to go bad (for whatever reason), that's when many STOP being "real" and go back to "acting" like they still like you,the same way they did when they FIRST met you----when in reality, they have once again BEGUN to emotionally divest from you. And then, once the emotional withdrawal process is COMPLETE, all the acting STOPS.

That's when many women turn to "blocks of ice" as you so eloquently said. That's when they allow their CURRENT feelings towards you to be shockingly (for us, at least) REVEALED.

THAT'S when you look into their eyes and see the cold, soul-less eyes of THE DEVIL peering back at you. Because they've been hiding that part of them up until THAT moment.

THAT part is real as fukk. The acting that I was referring to occurs during the processes that she goes through in order to once again REACH that point of TOTAL disregard for you.

So I DO know what you're saying, because I HAVE experienced that myself----and RECENTLY, unfortunately.

But again I say, not ALL women are this way to the same malevolent extent. Because I have experienced the exact opposite of this phenomena with other women in my past as well. There are women RIGHT now that many of us on here can call from our pasts, and no matter HOW LONG it has been, THAT woman will still claim to still be "in love" with us.

But being Mature Men, we really understand that what SHE may call love in THAT case is really nothing more than a "lingering" connection that she feels due to the depth of her previous emotional investment. And because of that residual emotional investment that she has ALLOWED to live on by nurturing by way of her memories-----she still exhibits traces of a loyalty to us that are the legacy of a form of INTEGRITY that she has shared with us from the past.