The Marriage Goal

[azanon]

I must have, since you didn't actually bother to write them down. Seriously, write down all the benefits, I would love to know why I should get married.

This from religious tolerance.org, one of many sites that have them listed. Given the sheer number of them, i hope you didn't expect me to spend the rest of the night and into tomorrow making a list:

On the order of 1,400 legal rights are conferred upon married couples in the U.S. Typically these are composed of about 400 state benefits and over 1,000 federal benefits. Among them are the rights to: joint parenting;
joint adoption;
joint foster care, custody, and visitation (including non-biological parents);
status as next-of-kin for hospital visits and medical decisions where one partner is too ill to be competent;
joint insurance policies for home, auto and health;
dissolution and divorce protections such as community property and child support;
immigration and residency for partners from other countries;
inheritance automatically in the absence of a will;
joint leases with automatic renewal rights in the event one partner dies or leaves the house or apartment;
inheritance of jointly-owned real and personal property through the right of survivorship (which avoids the time and expense and taxes in probate);
benefits such as annuities, pension plans, Social Security, and Medicare;
spousal exemptions to property tax increases upon the death of one partner who is a co-owner of the home;
veterans' discounts on medical care, education, and home loans; joint filing of tax returns;
joint filing of customs claims when traveling;
wrongful death benefits for a surviving partner and children;
bereavement or sick leave to care for a partner or child;
decision-making power with respect to whether a deceased partner will be cremated or not and where to bury him or her;
crime victims' recovery benefits;
loss of consortium tort benefits;
domestic violence protection orders;
judicial protections and evidentiary immunity;
and more....

Most of these legal and economic benefits cannot be privately arranged or contracted for. For example, absent a legal (or civil) marriage, there is no guaranteed joint responsibility to the partner and to third parties (including children) in such areas as child support, debts to creditors, taxes, etc. In addition, private employers and institutions often give other economic privileges and other benefits (special rates or memberships) only to married couples. And, of course, when people cannot marry, they are denied all the emotional and social benefits and responsibilities of marriage as well.

> I have a sneaky suspicion we wont see this list in RT's book ;-)

 

[joekerr31]

I think I got it:

You party in your 20's and 30's while working on yourself so by your 40's you got your shiit together and you are living awesome. Then at 50 you use the money and the power to essentially buy a 20 year old chick. Voila.

Other than that, I for one do not want to be alone at 50, no matter how much I enjoy being alone right now

valid opinion. one thing that is interesting though is that a LOT of men get a divorce in their late 40s / 50s. its almost as if they've had enough of the charade that their marraige was and just want out for the final years.

being alone (as opposed to loneliness) is one of the top 3 major fears 99% of people have. and it drives them to make BAD decisions in their lives.

even if you get married, unless you die first, you will end up being alone at some point.

in some ways i think people require a sense of lineage. they require people around them who know their past in order to feel comfortable that their life is progressing in a meaningful way.

when they are on their own their life loses 'meaning' in relation to the past present and future. theres no one around to validate the trials and tribulations they have gone through.

this is why it takes a strong man to stay his course. those who do often find a great deal of self satisfaction in living a life independent of the views of others - dependent only on their own evaluations.

im a successful, 32 year old single man. and ill admit, there are times when i seriously wonder if ive missed the boat with the whole partner thing.

at the same time, ive had my chances to get hitched. there are women who i could get hitched to right now if i put some effort in to it.

but for some reason i feel as though im just not done actualizing my potential as a human being. and although that process never really stops, i would like to hit a certain stage on my own before merging my life with another human being.

although i sometimes do wonder if im just kidding myself about that - if rather there is some deep rooted psychological reason i haven't settled down yet.

all i can say is that i havent come across a woman yet who i can honestly say i meshed with perfectly. oddly enough there was a woman like that back when i was in highschool and i let her get away (not AFC, just had too many issues on my plate to pursue that path with her).

all i know is that all in all id rather live a life pursuing my own goals nad ambitions rather than forcing myself into a relationship out of fear of loneliness.

ive always been someone who pushes himself towards the unknown. that is after all where interesting answers lie.

i've just never been able to follow the typical path most people take which is one of chasing after safety and security. lock it down so that the future isn't so scary.

hehe - we all know what the future holds - death! i dont care how secure you make your life, the day is going to come where you kick the bucket. so i say life should be spent pushing forward, expanding your horizons, etc. - and if you find a woman who will join you in the journey then you're a lucky man.

but finding a piece of *ss who is looking to lock in the 2 kids and white picket fence in order to keep up with the joneses and feel like her life has some inherent value as a result just doesn't seem like the best answer to the confusing journey of life.

 

[azanon]

at the same time, ive had my chances to get hitched. there are women who i could get hitched to right now if i put some effort in to it.

but for some reason i feel as though im just not done actualizing my potential as a human being. and although that process never really stops, i would like to hit a certain stage on my own before merging my life with another human being.

although i sometimes do wonder if im just kidding myself about that - if rather there is some deep rooted psychological reason i haven't settled down yet.

I would maybe explore that last part as a possible explanation, because I'm curious why you think you cant continue to "realize your potential as a human being" post marriage.

Since I've been married, ive dragged my wife to at least 4 different cities as I have gotten promotion after promotion. If anything, having that aspect of my life stabilized has served more as a ballast to my career, instead of a detriment.

If wives held people back, there'd be no such things as "first ladies".

So exactly what did you mean by being held back? Yeah, you cant date more different women (without cheating), but that's about it.

 

[DoubleA]

The real test for a man is how he lives with himself, alone. Written by R.Tomasso

AMEN.

[

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...Other than that, I for one do not want to be alone at 50, no matter how much I enjoy being alone right now

How come?

 

[blueguy]

I think I got it:

You party in your 20's and 30's while working on yourself so by your 40's you got your shiit together and you are living awesome. Then at 50 you use the money and the power to essentially buy a 20 year old chick. Voila.

I thought you were being sarcastic when you wrote that...

 

[mrRuckus]

How many women have bumper sticker that read "I LOVE MY HUSBAND"?

They have myspace and aim profiles that proclaim these things.

 

[joekerr31]

I would maybe explore that last part as a possible explanation, because I'm curious why you think you cant continue to "realize your potential as a human being" post marriage.

great response. got me to thinking and to further clarify my own thoughts.

heres the thing. my experience with women to date has been that they get you off track. you get addicted to the f*cking, you get addicted to the ego boost, etc.

even the best of us i think can get addicted to these things. which isn't a bad thing if you have a high quality woman. BUT, if she ain't high quality then it drags you into a bunch of drama that steal time from your other persuits.

now that said, i think ive refined my initial thoughts. and it actually also supports why ive been hanging out here discussing ideas with folks.

ill use an analogy to explain why i havent settled down yet in my mind. to me getting married is like buying a stock. you can buy a stock for a variety of reasons. its had a good run as of late. its an exciting stock to own. lots of people own that kind of stock. theres lots of speculation about the stock. etc. probably the MOST common reason people buy a stock is no reason at all - they just blindly gamble and hope they win big.

women are the same way. you can "buy" one because she's exciting. you can buy one because shes hot (ie. lots of others want to buy it). you can buy one because she has lots of potential. etc. - and one of the most popular reason a man chooses a woman is no reason at all - they just blindly gamble on a chic they have the hots for and hope they win big.

but really, the ONLY reason to ever buy a stock is because you understand the fundementals of the stock market, how that stock plays it its particular, you clearly understand the companies products, market position, future growth variables and its balance sheet. having weighed all those things as well as trends in the market you can then rationally invest in it and expect a good return over time.

if you understand the fundementals of buying a stock your odds of catching a good one for the long term go up dramatically. if you buy a stock just because of they make a product that you think is hot - your likely to get burned - because who knows, maybe their margins are crappy on that product, maybe there are too many competitors, maybe the product only has a 9 month hype cycle, maybe that one product drives only 2% of their overall revenues, etc.

so i think for me my great hesitation in getting married to date has been around understanding women. i've grown a great deal over the years, and feel i know probably more than 80% of the guys out there. BUT, i still havent reached that level where i can feel 95% confident that my assessment of a woman is one that is of such understanding that i'm likely to turn out a winner in the long run.

anyway, not sure if all of that made much sense.

i believe ill soon come to the end of my undesrstanding of women, and when that happens feel comfortable in choosing one to settle down with.

often on here we hear how women don't make sense - which is often true - but that's the challenge, to understand the behaviors of a person who behaves irrationally. becuase even though they can be irrational, there IS a method to their madness. and if you aren't insightful into what that method is, odds are it will burn you.

i suppose in part my phraseology of "havent fully actualized myself" in part includes actualizing my ability to understand what is driving a females behavior in any given situation. although i'd like to think im extremely insightful on that front when it comes to other people's situations - i think i still have a few more yards to go when it comes to apply such insight to my own life scenarios.

i suppose it also includes understanding how i see a woman fitting into my life long term. marriage is a huge committment that i think 90% of the people who do it dont understand at the time they are making it. it may work for 10 years, but you still got another 40 to go! i think most people are 1) not smart enough to figure out what they want / need over hte long haul 2) are afraid to be alone in life 3) are unhappy and think a woman / marriage will fix that - all of which drive people to marriage quickly.

this forum to me is like a forum on understanding the stock market and how to buy stock - except its about women

 

[Victory Unlimited]

Yo Troops,


Marriage, it seems to me, is just as much an EMOTIONAL INVESTMENT, as it is a physical, mental, spiritual, and FINANCIAL one. It's hard for me to understand why a man would marry a woman who he was NOT significantly emotionally invested in.

Now I'm NOT saying that he should put a woman on a pedestal and turn her into an idol to be worshipped. But what I AM saying is that a man has to really CARE for the woman in order to give her the gift of marriage. As an unmarried guy myself, I agree with something I heard George Clooney say about it once. And though I can't remember his EXACT words, I think he said:

"I respect marriage TOO MUCH to take it lightly."

I suspect that the level of commitment involved in marrying someone should transcend JUST our need to consistently satisfy our sexual needs, raise children, and build a financial nest egg. It seems to me that you have to REALLY evelate beyond just SELF INTEREST alone.

Otherwise, marriage becomes just another speculative BUSINESS venture devoid of the palpable PASSIONS that are PROOF POSITIVE of the things that we really CARE about.

Yes, self-gratification IS important----but it is just the BASIS, not the ENTIRETY of any REAL relationship. And I can't imagine marrying a woman who didn't AT LEAST satisfy me in all the areas that are important to me. But after that's taken care of, I STILL have to WANT to return the favor towards HER just as enthusiastically.

That's where the necessity and THE DANGER of emotional investment comes in. Without that kind of investment, wouldn't a marriage under THOSE circumstances be more of a DUTY than a DESIRE?

To invest in ANYTHING emotionally, whether it's friends, family, pets, YOUR CAREER, etc., can be a harrowing mission to go on. You LOSE it all or WIN it all. To invest in anything minimally could yield minimal results. But to invest in anything to the max COULD yield the maximum amount of results. Which do you choose????

Soldiers, it seems as if the key to winning this battle lies in taking a 3-pronged approach. You do this by expanding your knowledge of who YOU are, who SHE is, and what YOU ultimately want----then make the MARRIAGE MANUEVER based on calculated risk rather than careless disregard.

Whatever is chosen, whether it's marriage or perpetual bachelorhood, YOU still win the war when you feel FULFILLED by who you are at the end of every day.

There is an old adage that says "Don't marry the woman you think you can live with. Marry the woman you think you can't live WITHOUT."

I DISAGREE with the above statement because it is usually a mindset that leads to chronic AFCism, Female Pedestalization at the expense of the MAN's self esteem, and outright IDOLATRY. So here's a NEW twist on it that I DO agree with in theory:

The Victory Unlimited, New Age of Enlightenment Reinterpretation:

"Don't marry the woman you think you can't live without. Marry the woman you'd RATHER live the rest of your life WITH."

Notice the word "rather" in the above sentence implies that you have a CHOICE----that marriage, or ANY OTHER life-changing transition, has the BEST chance of offering contentment and being successful when the choice originates from a place of INSPIRATION-----instead of DESPERATION.



Peace...one day.

 

[Faca]

great insight man! I agree with a most of them.. just this one thing!

Soldiers, it seems as if the key to winning this battle lies in taking a 3-pronged approach. You do this by expanding your knowledge of who YOU are, who SHE is, and what YOU ultimately want----then make the MARRIAGE MANUEVER based on calculated risk rather than careless disregard.

I think that the order is just wrong.. Don't you think that your life's purpose should come before your relationship and also the kind of women that you want.

I would say that.. KNOW who you are, KNOW what you want and KNOW who she is so that when the opportunity arises choose that which you want. I think that why it's important for men not to marry in their early 20s. But i think that you got it right, a lot of the men marry because of the fear of ending up alone.

NEVER choose your actions or goals because of FEAR or DESPERATION!

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

great insight man! I agree with a most of them.. just this one thing!


I think that the order is just wrong.. Don't you think that your life's purpose should come before your relationship and also the kind of women that you want.

I would say that.. KNOW who you are, KNOW what you want and KNOW who she is so that when the opportunity arises choose that which you want. I think that why it's important for men not to marry in their early 20s. But i think that you got it right, a lot of the men marry because of the fear of ending up alone.

NEVER choose your actions or goals because of FEAR or DESPERATION!

I agree with you but there's of couple of things that should be realized:

1. Most people have not realized their life's purpose.
2. Some that have a purpose have chosen ones that are based on other people.
3. Most people don't know who they are, at best they have a vague idea of who they'd like to be.
4. Most people have a vague idea of what they want. Many times they don't know how to get it and if they are lucky enough to get it, they don't know how to keep it.
5. Fear causes people either to not act or to act irrationally.

 

[Victory Unlimited]

Yo Faca,


We're on the same page, dude. And I agree with your specifications on the order of things.

The reason why I listed those priorities in the order that I did was because I was operating from the presupposition that WE have ALREADY mapped out OUR life's purpose BEFORE we allow the idea of marriage to invade our minds.

So yeah, what I posted earlier should be viewed primarily from within THAT context.:rockon:



Peace...one day.

 

[Victory Unlimited]

Yo Francisco,


The list that you just provided us tells us EXACTLY the reasons why most people make ill-advised decisions when it comes to marriage, career, monetary investments, and WHATEVER.

The lack of self-reflection, or WORSE, the lack of even a desire to "KNOW THYSELF" is the root of ALL bad decisions. When we don't know better, it's impossible for us to DO better.

Many of the guys on THIS forum are at least forwarned about a lot of the pitfalls you mentioned. But WOE to those who are still blinded by what they've been told by the media and the politically correct society at large----STILL totally trapped in the matrix.

Sadly, it's really MORE of a surprise that ANY marriage lasts when people are unaware of, or DON'T even take into consideration the caveats you listed above...



Peace...one day.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Yo Francisco,


The list that you just provided us tells us EXACTLY the reasons why most people make ill-advised decisions when it comes to marriage, career, monetary investments, and WHATEVER.

The lack of self-reflection, or WORSE, the lack of even a desire to "KNOW THYSELF" is the root of ALL bad decisions. When we don't know better, it's impossible for us to DO better...

This is why I tend to do what Fortunate Juan calls "inspirationally berate" posts which gives advice that either cuts corners or advises potential DJs to do things which are authentic. It seems as if they are grasping at straws to achieve anything remotely successful even if it means sacrificing their identity.

 

[penkitten]

my husband and i really enjoy being married and sharing our lives together. we enjoy it.
neither of us felt like we were forced into it, and neither of us feel like it was the last goal of our relationship.it is something that we both wanted to do. our relationship has so much more to it than just being married.
our goal is to be that old 80 yr couple sitting on the porch swing holding hands telling stories to anyone that wants to listen about our good old days. we hope to win some old couple story contest on who has the funniest stories of wedded bliss.
have i ever told you the one of when we were in daytona swimming and the rip tide came in and pulled me out to sea? my non swimming butt was so scared and gio tried his best to save me , and in order to hang on until a life guard could come help me, i must have dunked him several times. however he was a trooper and only asked me one time not to hold on so tight. then a wave came and seperated us and i knew i would be a goner. every time the waves hit, i went under again and could no longer touch the bottom. (why in the world was i only five feet tall and why did i never learn to swim??) so he swam back to me one more time, and i held on to his neck and under he went again to keep me afloat, so i kissed him on his check and let go as i pushed off his body thinking maybe he would survive and i wouldn't drown him in the process. then some kids with braces brought something for me to float on. he said we were way too far out for gio to try to swim and save me at the same time without equipment. however, he really tried and he didnt leave me out there to die. after i collapsed on the beach and rested, we bought water for the kids with braces that swam the equipment out for me. now he always reminds me not to go in past my knees haha. and we laugh whenever we see anything with the words beach patrol in it.

 

[azanon]

I agree with you but there's of couple of things that should be realized:

1. Most people have not realized their life's purpose.
2. Some that have a purpose have chosen ones that are based on other people.
3. Most people don't know who they are, at best they have a vague idea of who they'd like to be.
4. Most people have a vague idea of what they want. Many times they don't know how to get it and if they are lucky enough to get it, they don't know how to keep it.
5. Fear causes people either to not act or to act irrationally.

So true. This reminds me of a joke you maybe have heard. Know why adults are fond of asking little kids what they want to be when they grow up?

Because they're looking for ideas.

Azanon

 

[Faca]

1. Most people have not realized their life's purpose.
2. Some that have a purpose have chosen ones that are based on other people.
3. Most people don't know who they are, at best they have a vague idea of who they'd like to be.
4. Most people have a vague idea of what they want. Many times they don't know how to get it and if they are lucky enough to get it, they don't know how to keep it.
5. Fear causes people either to not act or to act irrationally.

exactly!

I can stand it when i see friends, staying in unhealthy relationship.. just because the fear. The fear of being alone, not having a women in your life for a small amount of time. I used to say this a lot: Chicks are just like cars, don't get rid of the one before you got another. (the same with work). Now i'm starting to believe that walking may be better, if that gets me where i want to go. Wrong analogy maybe, but want to show to you never should be afraid of losing a chick. Not even your wife when married!

And i think as that just as VU said it:The lack of self-reflection, or WORSE, the lack of even a desire to "KNOW THYSELF" is the root of ALL bad decisions.. This is the why a lot of the people are afraid, and with that fear let the women become their purpose to live day in day out. Women can be a great inspiration, but never the reason why why you live.

Self-reflection causes you to think about your beliefs/thought, now i can see how destructive and negative i was with my dealing with women before. Now when fear comes into my mind, i just ask my self.. is this me? And the answer is always NO. And we talk here about the fear of ending up alone, but i think that most of us don't really now what fear is... It just social conditioning, and this can be undone!

 

[Bonhomme]

Men having marriage as a goal in itself?
Family lawyers must be salivating with glee....

 

[ElChoclo]

I like the JoeKerr stock market analogy. I like the Francisco comments.

Marriage is a purpose defined social construct. As soon as you start talking about buying into it, you are talking about accepting the paradigm laid out by society. Plenty of societies have had and do have polygamy, sharing of responsibility for children amongst the tribe, you name it. But frequently it doesn't resemble the Western industrialized Judeo-Christian model.

Some people have talked about benefits. In some countries there are stuff all benefits from marriage. Here, child support is automatic, married or not. There are some tax breaks which you lose by being married. Exemption from capital gains tax applies only one residence if married. Married pension is less than 2 single pensions. Etc.

What do we know about people from science. The Bell curve of nature. Very few really smart people, half of all people dumber than the other half. Should we assume the same mix for personality defects? Very few perfect personality women, at least half worse than the other half? The truth is that most people are not cut out for marriage. It was a concept from a time when life expectancy was 40 tops.

There are many fearful people, which is why bullies exist in relatively small numbers, preying on their fears. Those fearful people are afraid of loneliness, and for the most part, their fearful decision making processes should not be emulated.

 

[Wyldfire]

The focus should always be on becoming a complete person yourself rather than looking to a member of the opposite sex to "complete" you or your life. The main goal must be to get your life in order and pursue your goals in life. You're so much more likely to meet someone who will genuinely complement who you already are when you stop looking. When you look you end up trying to make every person you meet fit into a mold of your ideal person...and they never do.

IF a person gets married it should NEVER be because you have sought out someone TO marry. It should only happen if you've met someone already and you've got something that really works that you want to make that kind of a commitment to.