The Liberating Nature of "Open" Relationships

[STR8UP]

I have been fascinated by this concept for awhile.

Not that I am sure that I could ever practice it myself, but the concept of having an "open" relationship intrigues me.

I am of the school of thought that says that humans are semi-monogamous creatures. I believe that men seek less discriminate sexual variety from numerous partners, and woman seek sexual variety (albeit more discriminate) due to the "good dad vs. good genes" dilemma.

Men cheat to theoretically "spread their seed", and women cheat to theoretically "fill the gaps".

So people cheat. And when people cheat there are all kinds of negative ramifications. It is an act that can tear a relationship apart in short order.

This is why "open" relationships intrigue me. You are removing one of the biggest causes of the destruction of relationships. You are essentially circumventing the "system".

And when you think about it there is only one thing that stands between the success of this type of a relationship between willing partners. And that is jealousy. Remove the emotional component and you have the basis for the perfect way to solve the issue of investing years or even decades into something that has the potential to disintegrate in a matter of days or months.

We can argue the stats all day long, but each and every one of us has to acknowledge that no matter how faithful and loyal WE are as men, when you enter into a relationship with a woman, you have SOME control over her through your own actions, but ultimately you run the risk of getting the short end of the stick when you find out one day that your wife was not faithful, or worse yet, that your son isn't actually yours.

Like I said....I don't know that i would ever have the fortitude to change my way of thinking enough to allow myself to participate in this type of arrangement, but I have to wonder if it isn't a great option for those who have the correct mindset.

I won't go into great detail as to what makes me bring this up now, but I will say that I had an eye opening experience on New Years Eve.

I was at a party with a group of friends, and one of them was a guy I don't know very well but had met a few times before. His wife was there and I met her for the first time that night.

Talking to the husband early in the night, he told me a story about a mutual friend of ours who I hadn't seen in a few years. I guess recently his wife of 20 years all of a sudden flipped out, said "this isn't who I am", cleaned out his bank account and headed out of state.

So here I am cringing from the fortune that befell a mutual friend, and we start talking about marriage. He says to me, "You know the secret to a great marriage?" Of course I have my own ideas but I wanted to hear what he had to say so I listened intently. He leans in and says "An open-minded wife".

The conversation got changed at this point so he didn't elaborate and i didn't exactly understand what he meant until later on at the party when I was talking to his wife. Later we started talking and she was telling me about how great her husband is, and how lucky she is to have found him. I guess they were married in their early 20's and have held strong for the better part of two decades.

Then her husband walks over and they start talking about sexual stuff, in a lighthearted manner, but serious at the same time. It was then that I started to see what he meant by an "open-minded" wife.

The night carried on and I could tell that the wife was feeling me out. She kept throwing things out there to see how I would react, and I could see that she was trying to see if I was open to their lifestyle.

There was more to the story which I won't go into because I know the direction it would take this thread, but suffice to say if I had my own car there and were so inclined I could have stayed at their house.

Anyway, back to the point.

The next day I started thinking about how happy these two seemed, in stark contrast to our other friend whose wife all of a sudden "changed" and up and left him after quite a few years. It just makes me wonder if you could say that "A couple who plays together, stays together".

Personal preferences/prejudices/religious influences aside, what do you think?

 

[Mr. Me]

I'm sure swingers also have their relationship problems. That's probably why they swing in the first place.

 

[STR8UP]

I'm sure swingers also have their relationship problems. That's probably why they swing in the first place.

Actually, I have studied this a bit, watched a couple of documentaries and did some reading, and most people will tell you that if your relationship isn't good to begin with, this type of thing will be a disaster, which makes perfect sense to me. It can't fix a broken relationship, but it can enhance a good one if both parties are on the same page.

I realize this is a controversial subject that is taboo to many people, but I am interested in exploring the idea that having "no secrets" might serve to help build a strong relationship. lets try to keep personal judgments and assumptions out of this discussion.

 

[ketostix]

The problem I see is the odds of this working and finding an "open-minded" GF or wife is probably no more likely than finding one that would be loyal and not screw you over in a relationship anyway.


It's like you always say Str8up, most women have an "A" guy, "B" guy and so forth. So while your girl is swinging with other dudes, it's only a matter of time before she finds some other replacement "A" guy that she can swing with. I've heard of this happening.

There's other practical problems, like std's, pregnancy, and OTHER guys/girls getting jealous to name a few, but I don't really see the point of staying with one girl if you're going to be swinging. Might as well be single. The bottom-line is I just don't see it anymore likely finding a woman that would be able to do this and still stay in a relationship with you than it is to find one that would be good in a exclusive relationship.


I would not be in marriage or married with a wife who's swinging, but that's just me. In this case, these two met young and are probably more like really close friends with benefits at this point. I think it would be even harder for a 30-something year-old to find that kind of relationship or develop something like that.

 

[Mr. Me]

>> lets try to keep personal judgments and assumptions out of this discussion.>>

How about opinions, am I permitted to give my opinion? I'm well read on the subject too and have met some couples in the lifestyle personally over the years.

>> I am interested in exploring the idea that having "no secrets" might serve to help build a strong relationship. >>

With swinging couples, the relationship needs to be strong to begin with, it's not about making it strong after the fact. If it's not strong and jealousy free, it's going to get torn apart when one or the other wishes to do more then the other is comfortable with. I know one couple where he was cool with his wife being sexual with another woman. They did that a few times. Then she wanted another man. Then she wanted two other men. He couldn't handle that but the gate was open now. Nothing got stronger there.

Another couple, die hard swingers for years. They go to Hedonism every year. But the husband cheats when he goes out of town for business. Does that sound like it's working the way it's supposed to?

I think the real reason people swing is because of other issues they may have, and not because it's to build a stronger relationship. Sure, they may appear happy, and at a social function, most people appear happy, you can't tell if it's masking anything. I think swingers rationalize the lifestyle to others with their arguments against monogamy and thumbing their nose at society's norms, making as if they're more evolved then others, but that's a pretense to give them license - those aren't the real reasons they go outside their primary relationships seeking sexual gratification. No one really needs to f@ck a stranger to make their primary relationship better. And no one really has sex with strangers just because they don't believe in monogamy, they have sex because they like the thrill of sex with new bodies. If anything, people have sex outside of their primary relationship because something's deficient in their primary relationship or to satisfy a quirk or an itch, not because of intellectual arguments. I don't play with your toys in order to make my toys better.

When you see this happening, what you may be seeing is what's not there.

 

[thedeparted]

Bi is the last stop before gay and open is the last stop before divorce. That's how I called the last open relationship I heard about and 2 mo's later they split.

The other thing is, if they really do play together, you might getting more than you bargained for.

But overall I think this is something for an older age group that wants to spice things up. I wouldn't go there now. You're not even 40 and you're not married.

 

[horaholic]

Another couple, die hard swingers for years. They go to Hedonism every year. But the husband cheats when he goes out of town for business. Does that sound like it's working the way it's supposed to?

I have a question about that. Does his wife know he cheats on business trips? And if so, how does she react? Or if not, how do you think she would react?

You'd think that because they are swingers, when one party breaks the 'rules,' it would not be as serious of an issue as with a monogamous couple, but I have no idea. Would something like that be divorce-worthy to them? or would he just be put in the doghouse for a week, and everything go back to normal?

Yes, there is still a trust, that has been broken, but what level of severity is it?

I'm sure we've all seen relationships, where both parties are always cheating, and when they find out, they wont talk for a week, then go back to the same old thing, as if cheating isnt that bad of an infraction, because they both do it. Obviously, this is an unhealthy relationship, and shouldnt be compared to an open relationship.

I can see where an open relationship could get out of line, like MrMe says, about the girl who kept upping the stakes, and the guy not being OK with it.

I can also see, where, if guidelines were followed, and there wasnt jealousy on either party, and the relationship itself was solid, why it wouldnt work. Im sure they have their problems, but the absence of a possibility of infidelity would be helpful. There are guys out there, who get off on their women being with other men, and vice versa. I could be wrong, but it seems that swingers, are emotionally unattached to their other sex partners, so it is unlikely, that one party would develop feelings for someone else, and leave them.

I could never do it, but I am a little jealous of their ability to be OK with that. It seems like it would be one less strain (and a BIG one, at that) on a relationship, and hold the potential for some wild times. If I were to ever do anything like that, it would have to be a straight swap, at the same time, different rooms in the same house. I dont think I could do that either though. Bringing another girl in for a 3some is another story though, but not the same as real swinging, though.

 

[horaholic]

It's like you always say Str8up, most women have an "A" guy, "B" guy and so forth. So while your girl is swinging with other dudes, it's only a matter of time before she finds some other replacement "A" guy that she can swing with. I've heard of this happening.

I dont see that happening, unless she was generally unhappy with A guy in the first place. If she has her relationship security, and total freedom to have her excitement sex in the mix, she should be the happiest chick ever. She has her cake and eats it too. If she wants money, she can swing with rich dudes. If she wants a bad boy for the night, she can go bang one, and go back to her comfort zone guilt free, knowing her man isnt going to leave her for any other chick because of sex, because he doesnt need to, cuz hes allowed too.

STD's, and other parties getting jealous, is probably the main thing they worry about. There is a swinger couple that frequents my local bar, and I, among others, dont really like them, cuz they try to game every girl in the place, including taken girls, in front of their dudes. The guys is gonna get beat up of of these nights doing that.

 

[STR8UP]

Good points.

It's not so much that I want to get involved as the fact that it intrigues me. It's natural and even healthy to feel some jealousy in a relationship. It just seems like if you were able to get yourself over that hurdle it could take part of the incentive for dishonesty out of the equation.

The thing that scares me the most about getting involved with a woman exclusively is the prospect of finding out that she has betrayed my trust. It's happened so many times that is almost seems par for the course. Can you find a woman who will never cheat on you? Of course....not all women cheat. But I know that it is human nature to seek out the best deal, and although part of a woman's loyalty can be controlled by YOU as a man, there will always be things that are out of your control. When you have to start relying on faith and chance....that's when things get scary.

To me a big part of this mating game shuffle is the ability or inability to control the urges we have. Face it.....you're probably going to get tired of fukking the same woman at some point and there's only so much you can do to "spice things up" before your eye starts to wander, then you get into a compromising situation where you have to lie and deceive the other person. So it's a lose/lose. Either you deny your urges as a man to seek sexual variety, or you go out and take a chance on ruining your relationship by attempting to fulfill your desires without the other person's knowledge.

 

[horaholic]

Its like the extreme case of "when life gives you lemons, make lemonade":crackup:

Eliminating jealousy, clinginess, neediness, sexual dissatisfaction, infidelity, and monotony, by having sex. Wow.

Seems like the only things to fight about would be money, and household cleanliness.

 

[ketostix]

I dont see that happening, unless she was generally unhappy with A guy in the first place. If she has her relationship security, and total freedom to have her excitement sex in the mix, she should be the happiest chick ever. She has her cake and eats it too. If she wants money, she can swing with rich dudes. If she wants a bad boy for the night, she can go bang one, and go back to her comfort zone guilt free, knowing her man isnt going to leave her for any other chick because of sex, because he doesnt need to, cuz hes allowed too.

Well I've definitely seen an open relationship turn into a split where the woman met a replacement "A" guy. Like Mr. Me pointed out, you have to question just how happy a woman is with her guy to want the relationship to be open in the first place. Plus you have to consider that most women aren't like men with sex. A woman starts having sex with another guy and eventually she starts get attachment and branch swings to the next guy. This is more the rule than the exception. To think a woman is going to stay with one guy and have sex with other guys and not branch swing eventually is not too likely. Most women primarily only have sex with one guy at a time for the most part. There's no real natural need for her to have multiple guys in the same time frame, she can only get impregnated by one.

 

[STR8UP]

Its like the extreme case of "when life gives you lemons, make lemonade":crackup:

Eliminating jealousy, clinginess, neediness, sexual dissatisfaction, infidelity, and monotony, by having sex. Wow.

Seems like the only things to fight about would be money, and household cleanliness.

That's what I am saying!

This is the big dark cloud that looms over most relationships. Of course in the beginning where you only have eyes for each other, it's a non-issue. But the dynamics of a relationship change as time goes by, and you no longer stay with a person because they give you butterflies every time they are around. It eventually becomes more of a comfortable, familiar, and routine situation.

Now don't get me wrong....I don't think this is a catch-all solution to relationship issues, But I do think that it CAN work for a small percentage of people and it probably makes them closer and more trusting.

I mean, think about it for a second. Wouldn't it be great to know that the likelihood of a trust issue coming up would be next to nil?

I just think that people are living in denial or ignorance. I did so for years. I walked around thinking that things SHOULD be a certain way and people SHOULD be good and trustworthy, and some actually were, but the majority of the time, ESPECIALLY with women, it turned out that beneath the pretty facade lurked an ugly monster. That monster might have been contained indefinitely under a certain set of circumstances, but we don't always have the ability to contain it and as such we never know if or when it will rear its ugly head.

Not trying to sound bitter or hateful here, but it's the stone cold truth. Now I know that today I am a better Man than I was ten years ago. I now have an arsenal of tools that allow me to avoid complacency in a relationship and deal with women on MY terms, so my chances of being able to keep the ship afloat might be better than most, but it still SCARES me to think that you never really know who you are dealing with.

Over the course of 40 years, maybe. But if you get married in your 20's or even 30's there are a lot of life stages you still have to pass through, and I don't like the thought of rolling the dice with one woman (even if I hedge my bet as much as possible) just to spend two good "honeymoon" years followed by the next 18 wishing I could bang the waitress at the coffee shop, just to find out that although I held up my part of the bargain, when I was at the coffee shop drooling over the waitresses hot ass for the last three years, the wife was at home screwing the cable guy.

It just seems like an "ideal' situation to be able to essentially have your cake and eat it too. And the only thing that is really standing in your way is finding a willing partner and getting over your mental hangups.

Well I've definitely seen an open relationship turn into a split where the woman met a replacement "A" guy. Like Mr. Me pointed out, you have to question just how happy a woman is with her guy to want the relationship to be open in the first place.

Although I'm sure that there are a fair number of women who might try this as a last ditch alternative to getting out of a relationship, I doubt that most women go into this "unhappy". I would bet that most of the time it's the guy who gets the women into the idea.

Plus you have to consider that most women aren't like men with sex. A woman starts having sex with another guy and eventually she starts get attachment and branch swings to the next guy.

That is assuming that the sex began as a function of the woman seeking something more than just sex. I don't think that sex with strangers would lead to a woman leaving in most cases. I would even go so far as to say that I think it would have the opposite effect most of the time.

Either a woman has a "need" outside of pure sexual gratification, or she is simply seeking sexual gratification. The need either exists with or WITHOUT an open component to the relationship. I don't think that opening the gate to this will necessarily open pandoras box. The last thing I want is to be saddled to a woman who has unscratched itches, who has to grit her teeth and bear it with me.

Most women primarily only have sex with one guy at a time for the most part. There's no real natural need for her to have multiple guys in the same time frame, she can only get impregnated by one.

I do agree that women have a tendency to want to have sex with only one person at a time, but yet women DO cheat and maintain relations with their primary? Why is this?

Regardless of whatever study you want to believe, I would be willing to bet a lot of money that the number of women who have extramarital affairs rivals that of men....probably a good 50%.

So if half of women DO cheat, what are the other 50% THINKING? Lots of women out there sitting on the fence who WOULD cheat if the opportunity was just right.

Womens sexuality is MUCH more practical than men's. Men cheat to spread the seed...women cheat to get a good seed after they have a workhorse in the stable.

And this is all subconscious, which means that when a woman has the workhorse husband in her pocket, where she "gets the good genes from" is inconsequential. It could come from the cute handyman in secret OR from the guy who her husband gives her permission to fukk.

And it's the same way with men. We want to fukk a VARIETY of women out of our natural instinct to spread our genes far and wide, but when you drop your load in a rubber you aren't spreading your genes ANYWHERE. You HAVE satisfied your biological urge, however.

Make sense?

In other words, we all have these desires in us, and it doesn't really matter how we satisfy them....it's all the same as far as your subconscious mind is concerned.

 

[Juando]

I've had some experience with this- as the B guy.

When I was a few years younger than you, str8, I made friends with a great couple. I was a little slow but she had eyes for me and when the opportunity presented itself, she made a move. I with some reluctance went for it, and with his blessing. Turned out that he had a relationship with a woman from out of town he would sporadically visit. Don't know for sure but I suspect that before me her affairs were minimal or non-existent.

I cut it off after a few months. I was not ready to "settle down" into a triangle. But mainly, I felt that THEY were not mature enough.

Very recently I was approached by a wife who told me it was totally cool- but when I called her bluff, she demurred.

At the start of my last LTR I wanted to experiment but my gf declined and I respected her wishes. Now I wonder.

You can't draw any universal truths from my experience, just my story.

However I suspect that although it's definitely not for everyone it is possible to have a successful open relationship with mature individuals. I don't see it for people who want to "swing"- it's their thing but I can't relate to it: I don't see the point of it- do your swinging when you're single, not swinging, I know, more like plate spinning.

I think it can work where a couple opens the door to a particular individual that they or one of them wants to include, not because their relationship is lacking or they want to bed-hop for thrills but because there is genuine openness and desire to create a new paradigm with a particular person. I agree with the sentiment here that if this becomes a pattern it can signal trouble for the primary relationship. And I'm not saying it's easy under any circumstances, no way.

 

[jophil28]

THis tread is silly..Sane folk do not get in triangles.

STR8..you really need to get out on a date all alone with a grown woman and to "get some" real soon.

 

[Juando]

THis tread is silly..Sane folk do not get in triangles.

Yes, I forgot, look at all those deliriously happy marriages between the "sane folk".

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

Str8up, if you started a blog, similar in theme to the men are better than women site, and others like it, and instead of startign thread after thread here, and made blog post after blog post there, combined with your forementioned video making skills (you could post various videos as well), you could probably make a decent amount of passive side income.

"Straight Up Truth About Women and Relationships" could be the title.

Not a flame, just a thought. You'd put in the same amount of time, and make extra money, maybe even a few grand a month.

 

[STR8UP]

THis tread is silly..Sane folk do not get in triangles.

The "sane folk" are the good little people who follow all of the societal and religious customs laid out before them. And as Juando pointed out, they are all quite happy.

Take half a second to question the "system" in which you live, and you will clearly see how blinded you are to the agendas that benefit other parties.

Str8up, if you started a blog, similar in theme to the men are better than women site, and others like it, and instead of startign thread after thread here, and made blog post after blog post there, combined with your forementioned video making skills (you could post various videos as well), you could probably make a decent amount of passive side income.

"Straight Up Truth About Women and Relationships" could be the title.

Not a flame, just a thought. You'd put in the same amount of time, and make extra money, maybe even a few grand a month.

This just might be your best post ever.

I have often thought how much value I am throwing away on writing all of these posts instead of doing my own thing.

I was getting ready to step away from the table for awhile, but maybe instead I should capitalize on my controversial views.

Good idea.

 

[KontrollerX]

After thinking this thread over for a while Str8up I can't say that I agree with that guy you talked to.

Rather I agree with you on your "A Guy" post as well I agree with ketostix's post in this thread.

I think that the guy you talked to is simply the "A Guy" of the woman he is with and also I think since they both enjoy their particular kinky lifestyle it has made for a smooth marriage that will last.

To offer you my own opinion of what I think will make a marriage or relationship last I offer you Law 11 of 48 Laws of Power...

Law 11

Learn to Keep People Dependent on You

To maintain your independence you must always be needed and wanted. The more you are relied on, the more freedom you have. Make people depend on you for their happiness and prosperity and you have nothing to fear. Never teach them enough so that they can do without you.

And how does it apply to your swinger friend's scenario you may ask?

Well I think it may be hard for a woman to find a male partner for herself that would be willing to engage in swinging and allowing his woman to have sex with other guys in front of him or even when he's not around so for this reason if the woman really has a desire for this kind of lifestyle and to have her own stable man in order to engage in it with then this is part of what applies to Law 11 to make her dependent on this man. The other qualities of course are whatever he brings to the table possibly aside from this that makes him her "A Guy" in her judgement.

Also I agree with Law 11 in the sense that I think if someone cannot keep their woman dependent on them in some major way then that man can lose his "A Guy" status at which point his woman begins either the overt or covert process of shopping for a replacement.

I make this point for you because I'm not sure whether you said in your "A Guy" thread whether or not you believed a man could lose this status so whether you did or didn't is irrelevant as I'm just offering you my opinion on it for your consideration as you may find it useful.

 

[jophil28]

The "sane folk" are the good little people who follow all of the societal and religious customs laid out before them. And as Juando pointed out, they are all quite happy.

Both you and Juando are missing the point deliberately.. You are both lost on this issue.
Sane MEN ( make that SMART ) do not get involved with another man's wife. Lets leave morals out of this for a moment in case I am censored .
It is irrelevant whether she wants it, or he is OK with the deal.
Why don't you just go move into his guest room and feed yourself from his refrigerator . Maybe the three of you could all have breakfast together and vacation in the Bahamas as a threesome . Perhaps you could also leech off his generosity even further and have him lend you his SUV and his golf clubs..You might even drive their kid to soccer, or pick up their laundry and clean his pool too. . Geez, gimme a break.
GO get your very own woman STR8.
Sharing another man's woman is the antithesis of everything ' DJ '. It reeks of absolute desperation.

 

[wait_out]

Sane MEN ( make that SMART ) do not get involved with another man's wife. Lets leave morals out of this for a moment in case I am censored.

I think you ought to write a rulebook jophil.

Call it "how not to be retarded"