The BIG Drink for Bulking

Vertical Nutrition · Nov 16, 2004

You can put this under the bulking section if you wish.

Some people have a hard time figuring out what to use to get big. Some of us can't eat 2 cups of oatmeal, and 6 eggs, but most of us can get our calories in liquid form. Here is a drink I use, and for those of you who want to add, tweak or do what ever, do so. If its good, post it.

4 Tbsp Canola Oil
6 Tbsp Peanut Butter
4 Tbsp Corn Syrup
1/2C ice cream (calories will depend on flavor)
24oz of 2% milk.
2 scoops Optimum Anabolic Milk protein (use what you want)

2,380 calories 80g protein, 147g Fat, 144g Carbs.

For those who want more protein in that deal, I would use a high protein powder. The one I use is 34g per 2 scoops. Some you can get close to 50g. This whole deal will FILL a blender. I put mine in a half gallon milk jug, and it fills it half full. Looks like alot in a blender, but the trick is to add it to a bigger container. This in turn makes the mind go... Wow, that's nothing, and before you know it its all gone. If you want to double it, and get ALL your calories from liquid, repeat the steps. I only do this cause I try to eat whole foods as well. A FULL Dinner, and then a moderate lunch. Tuna, noodles, what ever.

We are concentrating on CALORIES over all, and more fat and carbs then protein. Seems odd yes, but GET THOSE CARBS.

Another thing I use is a combo of Insulin clearing items. Chromium, ALA, Vanadyl, and fish oil. This allows the body to store the goodies in the muscles.

Vertical Nutrition · Nov 16, 2004

One more thing i'd like to mention about bulking is that there are some things you don't want to do with food.

One thing, and if your serious about this is STAY AWAY from fiber at first. I know fiber is important, but for the time you are trying to add slabs of muscle for the ladies, dump the apples, oatmeal, and things of the sort. All they will do is MAKE YOU FULL. HARD gainers need every bit of food they can eat.

Second, try to drink high caloric drinks. Pop won't hurt, just don't over do the caffeine. If you want, add maltodextrin to the mix. Here is what I am talking about.

8oz of Hawaiian Punch Lemonade contains 80cal.

8oz of OJ contains 110cal

30cal may not seem like alot, but it is considering its 8oz each.

This goes the same for food. Think about an apple. 80cal per apple. Now, who thinks it would be easier to drink a can of pop, carb drink, or eat two slices of cheese instead of 2 apples?

Last is try to stay away from "non" calorie foods, or low calorie foods. Something like this would be making a grilled cheese sand, and eating a handful of pickle slices which have NO calories if you look at the label. All it will do is make you full.

Hope this helps

Eulogy · Nov 16, 2004

Originally posted by Vertical Nutrition

Another thing I use is a combo of Insulin clearing items. Chromium, ALA, Vanadyl, and fish oil. This allows the body to store the goodies in the muscles.

You must know when to stop with the calories. Advocating "eating everything in sight" is a sure-fire way to gain a ton of unnessecary fat. Especially if you plop in ice cream and corn syrup (what the hell are you thinking??!)

By the way ALA is junk. Only R-ALA has shown to have significant effects on insulin.

Eulogy · Nov 16, 2004

Originally posted by Vertical Nutrition
One more thing i'd like to mention about bulking is that there are some things you don't want to do with food.

One thing, and if your serious about this is STAY AWAY from fiber at first. I know fiber is important, but for the time you are trying to add slabs of muscle for the ladies, dump the apples, oatmeal, and things of the sort. All they will do is MAKE YOU FULL. HARD gainers need every bit of food they can eat.

Second, try to drink high caloric drinks. Pop won't hurt, just don't over do the caffeine. If you want, add maltodextrin to the mix. Here is what I am talking about.

8oz of Hawaiian Punch Lemonade contains 80cal.

8oz of OJ contains 110cal

30cal may not seem like alot, but it is considering its 8oz each.

This goes the same for food. Think about an apple. 80cal per apple. Now, who thinks it would be easier to drink a can of pop, carb drink, or eat two slices of cheese instead of 2 apples?

Last is try to stay away from "non" calorie foods, or low calorie foods. Something like this would be making a grilled cheese sand, and eating a handful of pickle slices which have NO calories if you look at the label. All it will do is make you full.

Hope this helps

This is absolutly ludocris. Ridiculous.

"Vertical Nutrition- Coming 2005"

I hope no one actually listens to this clown. Jesus CHRIST

Hot Ice · Nov 16, 2004

The actual FACT is...
Proteins and cabs give you calories, take your calories you need from there avoiding fat and you get yourself a good bulking diet.

With a little more research of course...

Vertical Nutrition · Nov 16, 2004

Re: Re: The BIG Drink for Bulking

Originally posted by Eulogy
You must know when to stop with the calories. Advocating "eating everything in sight" is a sure-fire way to gain a ton of unnessecary fat. Especially if you plop in ice cream and corn syrup (what the hell are you thinking??!)

By the way ALA is junk. Only R-ALA has shown to have significant effects on insulin.

What am I thinking? Alot more then you right now. Why don't you do a little reading from Chris Aceto, or better yet, pick up the complete keys to progress book by John McCallum. You obviously don't understand much to be criticizing. We're talking hard gainers here.

Data from animal studies suggests that the R-isomer may be more effective in improving insulin sensitivity than the S-isomer, but this possibility has not been tested in any published human trials. (note the may part)

Am J Physiol. 1997;273(1 Pt 1):E185-191

Estrada DE, Ewart HS, Tsakiridis T, et al. Stimulation of glucose uptake by the natural coenzyme alpha-lipoic acid/thioctic acid: participation of elements of the insulin signaling pathway. Diabetes. 1996;45(12):1798-1804.

Hot Ice... Where did you get you fat info from? That you don't need fat for bulking? (This is NOT a fact)

FACT: You need ALL 3.

Eulogy · Nov 16, 2004

Re: Re: Re: The BIG Drink for Bulking

Originally posted by Vertical Nutrition
What am I thinking? Alot more then you right now. Why don't you do a little reading from Chris Aceto, or better yet, pick up the complete keys to progress book by John McCallum. You obviously don't understand much to be criticizing. We're talking hard gainers here.

Data from animal studies suggests that the R-isomer may be more effective in improving insulin sensitivity than the S-isomer, but this possibility has not been tested in any published human trials. (note the may part)

You're wrong.

The R enantiomer of ALA is the ONLY enantiomer with significant, positive biological activity. It’s the ONLY enantiomer which does the following: reduction of oxidative stress, reversal of insulin resistance, and boosting of metabolism – to any great degree. Need proof? Here are just two examples out of an entire LIST of papers:

“This study revealed a marked stereospecificity in the prevention of buthionine sulfoximine-induced cataract, and in the protection of lens antioxidants, in newborn rats by alpha-lipoate, R- and racemic alpha-lipoate decreased cataract formation from 100% (buthionine sulfoximine only) to 55% (buthionine sulfoximine + R-alpha-lipoic acid) and 40% (buthionine sulfoximine + rac-alpha-lipoic acid) (p<0.05 compared to buthionine sulfoximine only). S-alpha-lipoic acid had no effect on cataract formation induced by buthionine sulfoximine. The lens antioxidants glutathione, ascorbate, and vitamin E were depleted to 45, 62, and 23% of control levels, respectively, by buthionine sulfoximine treatment, but were maintained at 84-97% of control levels when R-alpha-lipoic acid or rac-alpha-lipoic acid were administered with buthionine sulfoximine; S-alpha-lipoic acid administration had no protective effect on lens antioxidants.”

Maitra I et al (1996). Stereospecific effects of R-lipoic acid on buthionine sulfoximine-induced cataract formation in newborn rats. Biochem Biophys Res Commun 16;221(2):422-9.

“We determined the individual effects of the pure R-(+) and S-(-) enantiomers of ALA on glucose metabolism in skeletal muscle of an animal model of insulin resistance, hyperinsulinemia, and dyslipidemia: the obese Zucker (fa/fa) rat. Obese rats were treated intraperitoneally acutely (100 mg/kg body wt for 1 h) or chronically [10 days with 30 mg/kg of R-(+)-ALA or 50 mg/kg of S-(-)-ALA]. Glucose transport [2-deoxyglucose (2-DG) uptake], glycogen synthesis, and glucose oxidation were determined in the epitrochlearis muscles in the absence or presence of insulin (13.3 nM). Acutely, R-(+)-ALA increased insulin-mediated 2-DG-uptake by 64% (P < 0.05), whereas S-(-)-ALA had no significant effect.”

Streeper RS et al (1997). Differential effects of lipoic acid stereoisomers on glucose metabolism in insulin-resistant skeletal muscle. Am J Physiol 273(1 Pt 1):E185-91.

Not only this, but the S enantiomer can actually REDUCE the effectiveness of the R enantiomer – the opposite configuration can actually cause the opposite effect! Why? Because the S enantiomer has enough similarity to occupy the sites that the R enantiomer does, without being similar enough to cause biological activity. It’s like having a key that fits your keyhole, but it’s for someone else’s door – the key looks great, and it fits the lock, but in the end you’re still stuck outside in the rain because the door won’t open. Here’s another excerpt from the same paper:

“Although chronic R-(+)-ALA treatment significantly reduced plasma insulin (17%) and free fatty acids (FFA; 35%) relative to vehicle-treated obese animals, S-(-)-ALA treatment further increased insulin (15%) and had no effect on FFA. … Chronic R-(+)-ALA treatment elicited a 26% increase in insulin-stimulated glycogen synthesis and a 33% enhancement of insulin-stimulated glucose oxidation. No significant increase in these parameters was observed after S-(-)-ALA treatment. Glucose transporter (GLUT-4) protein was unchanged after chronic R-(+)-ALA treatment but was reduced to 81 +/- 6% of obese control with S-(-)-ALA treatment. Therefore, chronic parenteral treatment with the antioxidant ALA enhances insulin-stimulated glucose transport and non-oxidative and oxidative glucose metabolism in insulin-resistant rat skeletal muscle, with the R-(+) enantiomer being much more effective than the S-(-) enantiomer.”

Streeper RS et al (1997). Differential effects of lipoic acid stereoisomers on glucose metabolism in insulin-resistant skeletal muscle. Am J Physiol 273(1 Pt 1):E185-91.

In light of these studies, it should be painfully clear that supplement companies which sell you the racemate – and most of the others do – are RIPPING YOU OFF! Not only are they selling you sub-standard product, but it actually contains something which counteracts the good effects of its useful component! Talk about kicking the consumer while you’re down…

Eulogy · Nov 16, 2004

Re: Re: Re: The BIG Drink for Bulking

Originally posted by Vertical Nutrition
[BYou obviously don't understand much to be criticizing. We're talking hard gainers here.
[/B]

HAH!

You recommend FRUIT JUICE AND SODA POP over OATMEAL and FRUIT.

You sir, are an IDIOT.

You're acting as if it's impossible for a hard gainer to gain weight eating clean cals. What they have some kind of disease so they need to eat empty cals? That's absolutly ridiculous.

NEWS FLASH: That **** makes you FAT weather or not you're a hardgainer.

Stop recommending this bullcrap and do some research.

Skinny guys can hit well over the 5k+ mark with clean cals NO PROBLEM. Even then, WHO THE HELL PUTS ICE CREAM AND CORN SYRUP IN THEIR SHAKES?

Vertical Nutrition · Nov 16, 2004

“This study revealed a marked stereospecificity in the prevention of buthionine sulfoximine-induced cataract, and in the protection of lens antioxidants, in newborn rats by alpha-lipoate, R- and racemic alpha-lipoate decreased cataract formation from 100% (buthionine sulfoximine only) to 55% (buthionine sulfoximine + R-alpha-lipoic acid) and 40% (buthionine sulfoximine + rac-alpha-lipoic acid) (p<0.05 compared to buthionine sulfoximine only). S-alpha-lipoic acid had no effect on cataract formation induced by buthionine sulfoximine. The lens antioxidants glutathione, ascorbate, and vitamin E were depleted to 45, 62, and 23% of control levels, respectively, by buthionine sulfoximine treatment, but were maintained at 84-97% of control levels when R-alpha-lipoic acid or rac-alpha-lipoic acid were administered with buthionine sulfoximine; S-alpha-lipoic acid administration had no protective effect on lens antioxidants.”

Maitra I et al (1996). Stereospecific effects of R-lipoic acid on buthionine sulfoximine-induced cataract formation in newborn rats. Biochem Biophys Res Commun 16;221(2):422-9.
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Give me something I can use. I'm talking insulin, not its antioxitant properties or cataract and lens effect.

Alpine · Nov 16, 2004

Who gives a ****, come on guys.

Young skinny lads can blend up a tub of lard and they won't get fat. As you reach the limits of bulking, get older and start thinking long term health, then you can start thinking more prudently.

As a true hardgainer I still feel you don't need to produce a shake more than 1k calories. Ease forward with that, then swap out with some solid food, then add the drink again.

Progressive eating, adding 200 cal/week helped me alot and I have a very poor appetite even after 20 rep squats

Goatsmilk, Whey, Udo's and cooked oatmeal 1k cal worth easy.

It's balanced, nutritious and easy.

I agree, 'Keys to progression', excellent book highly recommended.

Eulogy · Nov 16, 2004

Originally posted by Alpine
Who gives a ****, come on guys.

Young skinny lads can blend up a tub of lard and they won't get fat. As you reach the limits of bulking, get older and start thinking long term health, then you can start thinking more prudently.

That's exactly the kind of undisciplined thinking I can't respect.

But hey, it's your body. Do what you want.

Vertical Nutrition · Nov 16, 2004

First off tell me what is so wrong with corn syrup? Sure its not as high on the GI as Maltodextrin, but the ONLY thing wrong with it is that it is sugar and can promote tooth decay. Waa waa lets all cry a river.

You think hardgainers can eat 5,000 calories per day everyday? What planet are you from. Hence why I reccomend the liquid stuff. I'm not saying drink it all your life. And quite frankly you should talk to REAL hardgainers. Not to mention these people go to school, work, sleep, and have a life.

Hey if you can do 5k cal per day in CLEAN foods, more power to you. I'm suggesting a plan for no more then 3 months.

When you give advice like eat the apples, and you don't know how tough it is for some people to gain, you make it even harder because there they go with fiber in their gut. Then they feel full, and then complain.... I can't eat anymore. Well Eulogy said eat apples, grapenuts, oatmeal. MRPS. (FULL OF CRAP)

And what do you consider empty calories? Peanut butter my friend is far from it.

And have you ever picked up a can of ensure, or boost? Do you know why Drs tell certain patients to drink it? HIGH calories, small amount. And you sir, should read the label and look what's in it. HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP, and CANOLA OIL. plus other stuff.

When you talk to a REAL hardgainer which has no disease, you get back to me and tell me how he is doing on his 5,000 cal chicken breast, rice, tuna, 6 egg-whites, 2 cups of Oatmeal, and then some day.

Vertical Nutrition · Nov 16, 2004

Originally posted by Alpine
Who gives a ****, come on guys.

Young skinny lads can blend up a tub of lard and they won't get fat. As you reach the limits of bulking, get older and start thinking long term health, then you can start thinking more prudently.

As a true hardgainer I still feel you don't need to produce a shake more than 1k calories. Ease forward with that, then swap out with some solid food, then add the drink again.

Progressive eating, adding 200 cal/week helped me alot and I have a very poor appetite even after 20 rep squats

Goatsmilk, Whey, Udo's and cooked oatmeal 1k cal worth easy.

It's balanced, nutritious and easy.

I agree, 'Keys to progression', excellent book highly recommended.

Thank you on the book, and yes it is HIGHLY recommended. And when you read it, give John a call and tell him he is full of crap Eulogy. He tells you to put a BRICK of ice cream in the drink.

You have to remember we are sipping this drink throughout the day. If you can do it, drink 8oz with every meal.

I second that on the Udos.

Eulogy · Nov 16, 2004

Originally posted by Vertical Nutrition
Thank you on the book, and yes it is HIGHLY recommended. And when you read it, give John a call and tell him he is full of crap Eulogy. He tells you to put a BRICK of ice cream in the drink.

You have to remember we are sipping this drink throughout the day. If you can do it, drink 8oz with every meal.

I second that on the Udos.

Is he still alive?

If he suggest eating ice cream, then YES he is full of crap and I don't care what you say.

Ice Cream is arguably the worst food man can consume. It's full of saturated fat and SUGAR.

Sugar, or pure freakin' glucose leads to onset type II diabeties and insulin resistance. You oviously know jack $hit about this, WHY do you even bother with ALA?

If you can't handle eating clean (yes its possible for the hardest of gainers) and want to take the EASY way out, then go for it.

That's just it, the stupid, EASY way to gain weight.

There are REASONS for eating that shit only EXCUSES for not eating clean, and thats what it all boils down to.

TheRelic · Nov 16, 2004

Amen Eulogy.

Hot Ice · Nov 17, 2004

I still don't get it why to put some crap on drink like ice cream and make it SEEM good, looking just nutrient amounts...

How about doing like I do:
Writing up everything you eat throughout the day, eat about 5-6 meals HEALTHY food.
When you write it up, getting the total wanted amount of everything to the end of the day actually motivates you to eat all the good stuff. By this method, eating a lot is rediculously easy and you crave that food all the time. You'll have your needs done daily since your goal is a daily goal, not "I'll eat everything that is high in calories and I'll get big". I eat things like nuts, low-fat yoghurt, milk, eggs, cottage cheese, oatmeal, pasta, tuna, chicken breasts, turkey filees, veggies, etc.

These are the best foods to eat if you want high protein and high, healthy carbs without too much fat. Plus, all the fat I take is mostly good fat anyways like from nuts for example.

Only stuff I take along food is whey and I'll get the best amounts of nutrients for me every day by just having few minutes time to write everything down that I eat. Simple as that.

The only time I eat high Glycemic carbs (like corn, sugars, carrots and produced stuff) is after workout since it's actually good to have them due to fast burn for energy and to get elevated insulin levels (which benefits you greatly) and then take some fast absorbing protein like whey. Otherwise, I try to avoid high glycemic carbs like plaque.

I'd like to add that the amount of nutrients you get from one of that drink is most likely to get down the toilet since your body cannot absorb them all that fast.

DJBen · Nov 17, 2004

This thread is ...amusing.

I got to avoiding oatmeal and just laughed. For a true 'hardgainer' [I dont believe in that word. It's a cop out for people without superior or good genetics. It's a word for crybabies cause they need an excuse as to why they cant gain a lot of muscle in a short space of time. I dont care what you look like, when I see a good diet and I see serious training, you'll get my respect no matter what size you are] you need 5-6 meals a day cause it helps get a bit extra food down you.

Just eat more home-made protein bars with plenty of flax/olive/peanut butter in them and you'll grow.

Alpine is 100% correct about young people eating anything and not gaining much fat. Get over it. If you cant lose a few lbs to look shredded again, you need to change your priorities anyway.

Vertical Nutrition · Nov 17, 2004

Originally posted by Eulogy
Is he still alive?

If he suggest eating ice cream, then YES he is full of crap and I don't care what you say.

Ice Cream is arguably the worst food man can consume. It's full of saturated fat and SUGAR.

Sugar, or pure freakin' glucose leads to onset type II diabeties and insulin resistance. You oviously know jack $hit about this, WHY do you even bother with ALA?

If you can't handle eating clean (yes its possible for the hardest of gainers) and want to take the EASY way out, then go for it.

That's just it, the stupid, EASY way to gain weight.

There are REASONS for eating that shit only EXCUSES for not eating clean, and thats what it all boils down to.

Wow, yes it is full of fat, I must be a moron. What was I thinking.

I suggest that if you drink milk, DUMP it cause your milk has just as much fat if not more then half a cup of Bryers Vanilla, which is 4.5g per 1/2c.

It is huh? Truth is, its NOT possible for hardgainers to eat CLEAN everyday. Not to mention if your trying to help some college kid out.

I love it when people think they know it all. If your such a genius, then you should be able to help out the tons of people on every board GAIN weight with 4-5k CLEAN calories if its that easy. And again we're not talking life long here. You drink this with your meals as well. Just because I drink it, doesn't mean I still don't eat tuna, pasta, etc.

No he isn't, but if you do a Google search on him, or Randall J. Strossen, PhD, who are involved with the book, you may learn something. Better yet buy the book. Ironmind.com

Its not easy ways out, its the ONLY way.
The 2 or 3 months you do this you are trying to pack on as much as possible. You go grab a hardgainer, and grab me one. I'll bet $$ if this was monitored, you'd lose cause your skinny kid is eating oatmeal everyday, 2 apples and other foods that make him FULL, and not want to eat. The point is to eat, not feel full. Why do you think most people tell you.... I can't eat anymore? Not really hard if you think about it. THEY ARE EATING STUFF THAT'S MAKING THEM FULL. Once they get where they need be, they incorporate the rest of the foods back in the diet.

Hot Ice · Nov 17, 2004

Originally posted by Vertical Nutrition
Wow, yes it is full of fat, I must be a moron. What was I thinking.

I suggest that if you drink milk, DUMP it cause your milk has just as much fat if not more then half a cup of Bryers Vanilla, which is 4.5g per 1/2c.

It is huh? Truth is, its NOT possible for hardgainers to eat CLEAN everyday. Not to mention if your trying to help some college kid out.

I love it when people think they know it all. If your such a genius, then you should be able to help out the tons of people on every board GAIN weight with 4-5k CLEAN calories if its that easy. And again we're not talking life long here. You drink this with your meals as well. Just because I drink it, doesn't mean I still don't eat tuna, pasta, etc.

No he isn't, but if you do a Google search on him, or Randall J. Strossen, PhD, who are involved with the book, you may learn something. Better yet buy the book. Ironmind.com

Its not easy ways out, its the ONLY way.
The 2 or 3 months you do this you are trying to pack on as much as possible. You go grab a hardgainer, and grab me one. I'll bet $$ if this was monitored, you'd lose cause your skinny kid is eating oatmeal everyday, 2 apples and other foods that make him FULL, and not want to eat. The point is to eat, not feel full. Why do you think most people tell you.... I can't eat anymore? Not really hard if you think about it. THEY ARE EATING STUFF THAT'S MAKING THEM FULL. Once they get where they need be, they incorporate the rest of the foods back in the diet.

Milk isn't full of sugar to **** up your insuline levels so drink milk instead of eat ice cream.

Did you even read my post?

It's not possible to eat clean??
That's a great attitude man!

And college?
Yeah, I'm going to school every day and I still can eat clean and PROPERLY.
It's all about MOTIVATION. And I say if you don't have motivation to bulk, don't do it. Since it takes some dedication.

With a simple method, A LITTLE DAMN NOTEBOOK, I've been able to eat CLEAN and ENOUGH daily. That means 4k calories, still not over 80g fat. (NOTE, most of that fat comes from good fat sources).

Without any fatty and sugary ****. Without drinking a drink with that much nutrients there is no way your body could ever absorb at once. Just a couple of additional servings of whey.

So do not say it's impossible to do it in healthy and good way.
I do it every day. Even I'm in school daytimes.

Eulogy · Nov 17, 2004

Milk IS full of sugar (lactose) but it doesn't work your insulin nearly as much as pure glucose.

VerticalNutrition, there is such a thing that is called "stomach expansion" the hardgainer will be starving for food no matter what he eats.

You, my friend, lack DISCIPLINE. And advocate this with your recomendations.

Get your head out of your ass, man.

EVEN if you don't have time to cook all your meals, there are plenty of ways to make good healthy portable food in solid OR liquid form.

The BIG Drink for Bulking

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