The best option for men is definitely MGTOW, the dating game is a lose lose game

[ChristopherColumbus]

You mean enter into a relationship or commitment with a woman. I don't get the impression they want to avoid women completely without making a choice of whether to be celibate or not. If they don't want to be celibate then they have to deal with women but in such a way their emotional risk is next to nill. Ironically, I think allot of mindset on SS is actually MGTOW in so much that if marriage or LTRs are disfavored and you've got spinning plates then that sounds more like MGTOW to me. How is it then different from DJing?

I mean the fundamental question at the core is "can I really trust a woman", "how much can I trust a woman", and "how much exposure or risk am I willing to put in order to chase an fantasy or Disney romance and gain societal's approval as a happily married and balanced man?". If you are just spinning plates, visiting hookers, or have friends, then you don't actually really trust the women you are dealing with (or respect them for that matter) and are just the same as MGTOW since you are not taking on your social burden or expectation to get married and start a family. Face it, you don't see any woman you are dealing with as the future mother of your children, they are all damaged goods.

The various species of MGTOW:

MGTOWC = Men gone their own way conceptually. This sub category might comprise the more PUA inclined of those here [perhaps half of Sosuave]. Conceptually, they have gone there own way, but being 'thirsty' they will still chase women [the hotties].

MGTOWA = Men gone their own way attitudinally. Women may or may not be part of the picture, but this is completely at the man's discretion... there is no chasing. Self-mastery/ self-discipline is crucial here.. without it, you will chase the hoe.

MGTOWL= Men gone their own way for good and as a Lifestyle. They have completely turned their backs on the women. They have thrown in the TOWL.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

You can't be on monk mode if you have a gf.

LDR?

 

[corrector]

LDR?

Especially LDR's because that demands more trust that the other party is not doing anything behind your back. I'd say the trust level is higher in that then other types of relationships. Plus, if it's a voluntary arrangement (i.e. you had to choose that girl to be your gf and know you would be celibate in that arrangement if you are faithful to her), then you can't even be involuntary celibate by definition. So you'd have no claim to either category.

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

Trainwreck, things are going to change. They have to. I’ve already broken a big cycle in my family that would have ultimately destroyed us. Other people will have to as well eventually, or else go crazy and THEN cause change.

With the way the world is, there are two sides. You either cut your balls off and stay as a ***** and just hope for the best (or if you’re a chick, ride the carasoul, get ****ed up in the head, do social media and all that, etc.), and just being a brainwashed retard who cannot think for himself.

Or he second end: go crazy, which most people who refuse to do the first option end up becoming. Those people at this point in time get ostracized and can’t even relate to each other much because they have to express themselves to such a strong degree to where the slightest bit that’s not of them makes them angry. These people are often jailed/incarcerated.

That in between part? Yeah those are the normal folks, the people who are actually just the regular strong and tough. Far and few in between nowadays. The hardships that society is placing on people, it’s too much. My brother is one of the toughest son’s of bitches on the face of the Earth just naturally. He was born that way, and born with the knowledge of the ‘alpha’ male and a mental fortitude that most. It took me 17 - 18 years to figure out the masculinity that he was born with. But even he couldn’t handle the social pressures of today. I broke around 7 months ago, my brother broke just this past Monday. Some kind of force pulled me back in, I had to pull my brother back in. I think what happened (the cause of it) probably was for the best, but it still created a mental shock that we aren’t able to handle. I don’t think anyone is able to handle that type of pressure. I’ve become a better person right now after talking to my brother, but I’m not sure how long I’ll be able to keep this up. The toughness I need to be able to resist the flow of society and stay this way would ultimately turn me into an evil and wicked person (the kind that flourish in today’s society), which would make the whole process becoming tougher and stronger pointless. The same goes for my brother too, I thought he was tough enough, but he was still trying to be a good person when everyone around him wasn’t.

The type of people we are and the type of people that society wants you to be (the type most people are) just don’t mesh well. Everyone who was ever like us left this place, because they don’t belong. And they can’t change it because the higher ups behind it all won’t let it until their goals are met, and if they stay, they go crazy. It’s the beginning of the behavioral sink John Calhoun was taking about decades ago. The thing is though, we are smarter and much more complex than mice, so we will realize what’s happening and stop it before our population will go extinct. But the culture shock will cause massive civil unrest and a huge social crisis that will make it to where the whole system will need to be redone. This is a good thing. But the cost of it is a bad thing. People WILL die when this happens, no matter what. People like Seth Rich, or those who worked for Wikileaks when Hillary was running for president back in 2016. But then there will be too many people to kill. It’ll either be to change the system or a civil war and THEN change. Or a gradual change into something so hedonistic that people won’t be able to think clearly enough to do anything about it, which is likely to happen in he future, but not in our lifetime at least.

OP, the only reason why men are like this is because women are. It’s not their/our fault. The reason why women’s re like that is because of media slowly corrupting them. And the reason for that is because of reasons that would make you call me crazy. You probably already are. Things are worse than they seem. All you can do is continue to increase your mental fortitude to resist it. Hence ‘Going Your Own Way’. This is ALSO why a lot of MGTOWs are so bitter. Full on, 100% MGTOWS who refuse to even try to game women are bitter as **** because that is a side effect of gaining that toughness to resist it that much. The people who have taken the red pill and ‘gotten over it’ only are able to because they just want to get laid and now know how to. The people who have wanted something with a bit more meaning now realize they cannot get that no matter what. That’s also a difference. The question is how can you change that? How can you change their desires? Some people just like chocolate ice cream while others like vanilla. How can you change their tastes? The key to that is the key to changing that ‘bitterness’ in MGTOWS. You would need to change something about them as a person on the most basic and fundamental level. And that is extremely hard to do, it might even be impossible for most. I think that’s why I’m not bitter either, because I was able to somehow (too many variables to explain). I also was going through puberty when I was learning about this stuff so I guess it just became apart of me while I was growing and developing. Others aren’t so lucky.

 

[Misterchaos]

I think the answer to what's MGTOW and what's not is in the word

Men Going THEIR OWN WAY

Their Own Way = Doing whatever the fvck they want that is out side of the blue bars of societal prison that most men submit to getting sent without putting up a fight. Let's talk about said prison:

Let's take a man and call him 'Andy'. Andy was raised to believe that his life was to be spent inside a prison ran by a female warden also known as his wife. Inside said prison he is supposed to get married and surrender his soul, dignity, assets, and spine to his wife, giving her a share of everything he has and will have the rest of his life. He is supposed to further his permanent ties with said warden by having her children, guaranteeing 18 years of her dictatorship. While getting an occasional dip in her vag for pleasure only WHEN and IF she feels like it. Andy is supposed to stay in said prison either until SHE IS NOT HAPPY AND RELEASES HIM, he dies, or until he swallows the red pill and jailbreaks out through a sewer pipe to freedom. If the warden chooses to release him from prison on her wishes and terms he will be sent to a halfway house where he is to live under home surveillance and be on parole for up to 18 years. In said arrangement the rules are dictated by his former warden and many other powerful agents of the State called Judges, States Attorneys, police, and Child and Family Services.

The way I see it, anyone not putting themselves on the same path as Andy is MGTOW. That could be from MGTOWs like me who still have sex with women and even LTRS, but will never again surrender to going to prison like Andy.. Will protect assests, reputation, dignity, and freedom above all else. All the way to the other extreme of the monk living in the Alaskan bush and never talking to another woman the rest of his life. To me, that's all MGTOW, again, because of the words "THEIR OWN WAY".

Spot on! Makes sense.

 

[R.U.G.]

MGTOW means put yourself first. Have sex on your terms and when it is not working for you leave. Yea, there are some that take it a bit too far, but they've been burned so bad, I can somewhat see their point. I do not think women are inherently bad, however, I feel that pop culture has pushed them in to some weird behaviors which 99% of them will pay for in the end. Treating any person like sh!t, male or female is wrong. I always treat a person with respect until it's unwarranted. However, in terms of dating and sex, I always have my eye on them. Nowadays, if the woman is at least average looking, she has a min. of five other bros she's talking, seeing and doing. Hence, it's hard to form a bond with them and vice-versa. It seems when I meet a woman through OLD, if it goes well, it will last for about 3 months. Other women I've talked to seem to have the same timeframe. The dating apps have ruined women and any type of meaningful lasting relationship being formed.

Yes, when they get to their mid-30's their biological clock is ticking. If a man meets their standards as a beta provider, she will lay down and sire kids. Do not think that will keep her. I know many men that thought they had a strong relationship, had a kid or three, a year later, she files for divorce. He's now financially and emotionally hurt if not ruined. In NY, for 3 kids, I believe it's 44% of his GROSS income goes to support the kids. She'll also get the house to raise the kids that he is paying for as well as having to have a 1 million dollar life insurance policy and pay for their health insurance. Oh, he'll also be on the hook for college as well. It's just not worth it anymore. The laws in the family courts really screw the man to the walls. They will be the downfall of our current Civilization.. Just watch.

 

[zekko]

[QUOTE="logicallefty, post: 2549144, member: 26824"The way I see it, anyone not putting themselves on the same path as Andy is MGTOW.[/QUOTE]
Again, the only problem I see with that is that this describes 95% of the guys on the forum. Instead of MGTOW, you might as well just call them DJs, or members of the Community.
It doesn't really set MGTOW apart.

 

[oldmanofthesea]

Having discovered TRP last year, learned a lot, and dated a lot, I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that women don't have enough to offer me to warrant investing my time or energy into them.

I truly have nothing against women and find that the older I get, the more female friends I have in my social circle. And I'm not talking about the kind I orbit in hopes of banging - these are women I'm totally not attracted to but get along with.

Through TRP and a year or so of self-improvement reading, I've come to realize that no woman is ever going to fill any kind of void in my life, and the more I work on expanding my social circle and designing my life to be awesome, fun, and free (from my job to where I live), the less I feel women have to offer me. For a seasoned DJ, game is second-nature, but for someone who still has to work a little at it, the outcome just doesn't justify the expenditure of energy to me anymore. I'm still focusing on inner game but that's it.

One huge let-down for me was discovering how little the vast majority of women appreciate acts of service. One of my big strengths is that I can do nearly anything - fix cars, remodel houses, grow food, fly planes, sail boats, cook, landscape, work on computers, carpentry, fix electronics, etc. I feel like acts of service is a common way a lot of men naturally express their appreciation for a woman but my experience has been that despite what many women say about wanting a guy who knows how to do those things and will do them for her, the majority would rather just date a muscled-up Chad who's only skill is knowing which bars to go to and how to get women to like him by treating them like sh*t (I'll admit, that IS a skill, but not one I care to learn). I've experienced it personally and even listened to my female friends talk about their single girlfriends who are obsessed with the one or two Chads who will do things like take them out on a date and then leave the bar with some other girl (I'm not joking).

But sex.... I'm getting to an age where sex is great and all but I'm just not willing to put up with the bull**** and amount of time and energy required to hook up with a girl I find attractive, especially considering most people don't have a 100% success rate so you have to expend the effort on multiple women to finally close the deal with one of them. Not fvcking worth it! It is a major time and energy investment for very little return in my opinion. I typically don't get to *really* enjoying sex with a girl unless I admire and respect her for something other than her beauty and after we've had sex a few times to where we are a bit familiar with each other, so this makes one-night-stands very low value to me personally. I'd rather buy a plane ticket to meet up with a friend and go backpacking somewhere exotic for a week, or spend the time exercising, or enjoying any of my many hobbies with friends.

As for a an actual long-term relationship, you have to let your guard down and invest emotionally for it to work - after all, that is what a relationship is. Once you invest emotionally, there is going to be pain after a breakup, and I've been burned from that enough that it just no longer seems like a road worth traveling. So many damaged or crazy women out there who wake up one day out of the blue deciding they want something completely different in life. Not interested in spending all the time sifting through them all anymore. Fortunately I have learned to spot a lot of red flags but, sadly, I now see red flags in *every* woman I meet so there just isn't any point. And I'm ok with that, if not a bit disappointed.

 

[machoMax]

The game have changed in the last 15 years. Mofos might need a break for a second.

Yes games is changed a bit, but that is nothing new, 15 years ago, people also said: "game is changed in past 15 years"...

 

[zekko]

Since experienced it personally and even listened to my female friends talk about their single girlfriends who are obsessed with the one or two Chads who will do things like take them out on a date and then leave the bar with some other girl (I'm not joking).

These girls have to be damaged in some way, have incredibly poor self esteem and think that they deserve to be treated this way. Or that they don't have any other, better options. But I guess it isn't too far removed from the newbie guys who come here who are obsessed with some chick who has stuck them into an orbiter role while they go out and bang other douchebags.

 

[Red Legg]

Fortunately I have learned to spot a lot of red flags but, sadly, I now see red flags in *every* woman I meet so there just isn't any point. And I'm ok with that, if not a bit disappointed.

Ahhh... I see you hit the "Red Pill Wall"... welcome.Have you considered the "red flags" that you possess? Women are not perfect that point is brought up on this board daily,but have you considered how imperfect you are ? I am a "Five Point Calvinist" the first point is "total depravity"= everyone is totally depraved.In the end everything is meaningless...everything....just read the book of Ecclesiastes in the book King Solomon is in turmoil saying over and over again that everything under the sun is meaningless and he had a harem of over 1000 beautiful women,so obviously women even 1000 of them will not bring happiness to you,at the end of the book of Ecclesiastes King Solomon comes to the conclusion that only a relationship with and worshipping God is the only thing that matters in life.Even focusing on self improvement (while good) is also an empty bag,because then you become to consumed with "self"

 

[Macaframalama]

It depends. if a man is a thirst bucket... he needs to sort himself out.

The best way to quench a thirst, is to drink. I see alot of word fvckery and mental masterbation on this topic of self-mastery, but mastery comes through action and doing and the experience that comes along with it. If you remove the one element, that you are trying to improve upon, you remove opportunity. The opportunity of experience, greasing the groove and refining your calibration skills in real time. You talk as if self-mastery is some type of linear process, like all one has to do is work on everything but women for a period of time and when he does decide to get back in the game he is going to kill it. I'm all for men making the choice to take time for themselves and ironing out some creases in their lives, but thinking you are somehow going to end up being successful with women by removing them from the equation is rubbish. The advice you are giving is too general and is starting to sound like a one size fits all approach. No examples given from what I've read and no plan of action or progression. Just a bunch of mind numbing theory.

 

[Macaframalama]

A new term is needed for men that focus firstly on achieving their purpose/goals etc...and place women as secondary accessories to our lives.

There already is... MEN! The problem in modern society is, that any homo sapien with a swinging d!ck and balls gets lumped into that category.

 

[Macaframalama]

OP, the only reason why men are like this is because women are.

Nonsense!

It’s not their/our fault.

It is our fault.

The reason why women’s re like that is because of media slowly corrupting them.

Who has allowed that to happen?

And the reason for that is because of reasons that would make you call me crazy.

You mean greed?

 

[logicallefty]

@zekko I can see your logic on this, I think. But you may have just answered the question without even knowing it with your words 'that this describes 95% of the guys on this forum'. That right there may be a key to the distinction we are discussing here. In specific, the fact that men on this forum have critical AWARENESS of the battle field they are fighting in and the opponent they are fighting against vs Andy and the other millions of blue pill guys who don't. Take a look at what this forum is evolving to. Upon it's conception this forum was about attracting women. Today, while we still talk intensely about attracting women, do we not also have a huge huge focus on protecting ourselves from women? IMO, that is what MGTOW is. So maybe we ARE all MGTOW and don't know it yet?

Good thread. Good topic.

 

[Misterchaos]

Having discovered TRP last year, learned a lot, and dated a lot, I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that women don't have enough to offer me to warrant investing my time or energy into them.

I truly have nothing against women and find that the older I get, the more female friends I have in my social circle. And I'm not talking about the kind I orbit in hopes of banging - these are women I'm totally not attracted to but get along with.

Through TRP and a year or so of self-improvement reading, I've come to realize that no woman is ever going to fill any kind of void in my life, and the more I work on expanding my social circle and designing my life to be awesome, fun, and free (from my job to where I live), the less I feel women have to offer me. For a seasoned DJ, game is second-nature, but for someone who still has to work a little at it, the outcome just doesn't justify the expenditure of energy to me anymore. I'm still focusing on inner game but that's it.

One huge let-down for me was discovering how little the vast majority of women appreciate acts of service. One of my big strengths is that I can do nearly anything - fix cars, remodel houses, grow food, fly planes, sail boats, cook, landscape, work on computers, carpentry, fix electronics, etc. I feel like acts of service is a common way a lot of men naturally express their appreciation for a woman but my experience has been that despite what many women say about wanting a guy who knows how to do those things and will do them for her, the majority would rather just date a muscled-up Chad who's only skill is knowing which bars to go to and how to get women to like him by treating them like sh*t (I'll admit, that IS a skill, but not one I care to learn). I've experienced it personally and even listened to my female friends talk about their single girlfriends who are obsessed with the one or two Chads who will do things like take them out on a date and then leave the bar with some other girl (I'm not joking).

But sex.... I'm getting to an age where sex is great and all but I'm just not willing to put up with the bull**** and amount of time and energy required to hook up with a girl I find attractive, especially considering most people don't have a 100% success rate so you have to expend the effort on multiple women to finally close the deal with one of them. Not fvcking worth it! It is a major time and energy investment for very little return in my opinion. I typically don't get to *really* enjoying sex with a girl unless I admire and respect her for something other than her beauty and after we've had sex a few times to where we are a bit familiar with each other, so this makes one-night-stands very low value to me personally. I'd rather buy a plane ticket to meet up with a friend and go backpacking somewhere exotic for a week, or spend the time exercising, or enjoying any of my many hobbies with friends.

As for a an actual long-term relationship, you have to let your guard down and invest emotionally for it to work - after all, that is what a relationship is. Once you invest emotionally, there is going to be pain after a breakup, and I've been burned from that enough that it just no longer seems like a road worth traveling. So many damaged or crazy women out there who wake up one day out of the blue deciding they want something completely different in life. Not interested in spending all the time sifting through them all anymore. Fortunately I have learned to spot a lot of red flags but, sadly, I now see red flags in *every* woman I meet so there just isn't any point. And I'm ok with that, if not a bit disappointed.

@zekko I can see your logic on this, I think. But you may have just answered the question without even knowing it with your words 'that this describes 95% of the guys on this forum'. That right there may be a key to the distinction we are discussing here. In specific, the fact that men on this forum have critical AWARENESS of the battle field they are fighting in and the opponent they are fighting against vs Andy and the other millions of blue pill guys who don't. Take a look at what this forum is evolving to. Upon it's conception this forum was about attracting women. Today, while we still talk intensely about attracting women, do we not also have a huge huge focus on protecting ourselves from women? IMO, that is what MGTOW is. So maybe we ARE all MGTOW and don't know it yet?

Good thread. Good topic.

True maybe we are lol!

However, I would never go give up on women as it appears oldmanofthesea may have. I think a change in expectations is warranted. Once we accept women for who they are and their inherent nature its is fun to engage with them. I actually think the less you expect or even "care" the more fun the interactions are. An issue of mine....I use to take them too seriously and too literal. Way less stress when you see and play with them like two kids on a playground.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

Yes games is changed a bit, but that is nothing new, 15 years ago, people also said: "game is changed in past 15 years"...

You right. It's bitching and excuses. Do something about it

 

[oldmanofthesea]

These girls have to be damaged in some way, have incredibly poor self esteem and think that they deserve to be treated this way. Or that they don't have any other, better options. But I guess it isn't too far removed from the newbie guys who come here who are obsessed with some chick who has stuck them into an orbiter role while they go out and bang other douchebags.

There are *many* women like this - some of whom are very good at hiding it short-term. Due to poor family upbringing and/or poor previous relationships/marriages, they have poor self esteem and feel they don't deserve to be loved (just as you mentioned). They seek the love and affection like a drug, but they can only handle it in small doses. They come on pretty strong at first and everything seems rainbows and roses and they are really into you until you start showing them attention and affection in return. Some can handle a week of it, others a couple of months, but that's it. They panic and run away at that point because they feel "overwhelmed." I've experienced it first-hand and so many guys come here to this very forum and ask for help for the exact same situation. So that's an example of a red flag I spoke of that I see a lot: when a woman comes on strong early. Or talks about a dysfunctional childhood. Or a really awful marriage. Already we are ruling out a substantial portion of the population of women just with those three things. Now take the remaining pool, and filter it for someone who actually takes care of their body and appearance yet isn't completely self-obsessed and fancies herself an Instagram model, and who has interests in life (anything - travel, exercise, sports, knitting, WHATEVER). We are now down to like 1% of the population. Now of that 1%, how many are single, and how many will be attracted to you? The numbers don't paint an encouraging picture.

Have you considered the "red flags" that you possess?

Absolutely I have. Prior to swallowing TRP, I felt that not having a woman was what was missing in my life (was still recovering from loneliness of my post-divorce life). That may have caused me to be a bit too focused on seeking a relationship which may have come off as needy and not aloof enough in some cases. At this point in my self-development, I honestly don't think I have many red flags, but who the heck knows because when women dump you, they never tell you the real reason so you are simply left to wonder on your own. I continue to work on improving myself and I'm quite aloof now.

When I talk about seeing red flags in women, it is in the context of judging whether or not they would be relationship material. For a one night stand or short-term sexual relationship, red flags don't really matter, but at my age, I place low value on hook-ups due to the effort required to get them and what you receive in return. I would never get into an LTR with a girl without first being in a casual sexual type thing for many months, but my point is that I see the red flags in everyone which disqualify them to be worth anything beyond casual. And I've learned that with most women, they are love seekers and once they know they've locked you down, the game is over and they move on. There is just no point in that.

I haven't given up, I'm just not focused on it right now. It could change at some point - life is funny. I still casually flirt with women if the mood strikes me but I don't go out of my way to meet them or pursue them. If one wants to pursue me and make it easy, I'd go along so long as I was enjoying myself, but women generally won't do that. I'm having far too much fun investing my time, money, and energy into all my interests and friends.

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

Nonsense!

It is our fault.

Who has allowed that to happen?

You mean greed?

I know you’re into all that conspiracy stuff so I’ll tell you. It’s about control. Greed is part of it, but only due to the desire for control. For centuries, organizations have been trying to gain control of the world. They get close to every time, but some small little error makes the people flip ****. Testosterone makes you think for yourself, and that is inherently male. This stops you from being so easily controlled (hence why there are so many ingredients in food nowadays that reduce test, i.e. soy). The thing is, in order to keep control, they needed to be perfect with how they control people. And as websites like these are evidence for, people (humans) are unpredictable. I know I sure as heck was. I did everything wrong to be simpering wuss and had the perfect conditioning growing up to become one. What happened? I rebelled in such a strong way that no one could control or would have ever been able to predict. It was impossible. Today I’m still shocked at myself for it. But I’m not the only one though.

So because men are very hard to control, the elites had to work via indirect means. The only way men are ever controlled is through our women. That’s it. Women are able to manipulate and weaken men in ways that is only possible BECAUSE they are women. Men have strong urges BECAUSE of testosterone. So in order to control us, the elites and those above needed to focus on corrupting the women first, who will then lead the mean to follow suit. We cannot help it simply because the way women manipulate is a way that is directly to a man’s weakness. You’re thinking right now that the man just needs to toughen up and be stronger, but that’s the thing though: you have to MAKE yourself stronger and tougher. You aren’t born that way. You have to force an abundance mentality on you so that you won’t be able to be manipulated. But otherwise most men would be. It’s just who we are. Think of it like how men are often times crazy and wild, and then when they get a woman, they get calmed down. Well it’s kind of along the same lines as that.

In essence, they needed to control women in order to control men.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

The best way to quench a thirst, is to drink. I see alot of word fvckery and mental masterbation on this topic of self-mastery, but mastery comes through action and doing and the experience that comes along with it. If you remove the one element, that you are trying to improve upon, you remove opportunity. The opportunity of experience, greasing the groove and refining your calibration skills in real time. You talk as if self-mastery is some type of linear process, like all one has to do is work on everything but women for a period of time and when he does decide to get back in the game he is going to kill it. I'm all for men making the choice to take time for themselves and ironing out some creases in their lives, but thinking you are somehow going to end up being successful with women by removing them from the equation is rubbish. The advice you are giving is too general and is starting to sound like a one size fits all approach. No examples given from what I've read and no plan of action or progression. Just a bunch of mind numbing theory.

It's about putting theory and practice together, reason and passion, which I think is the core concern of men.