Talking with an American woman about American women

[STR8UP]

I was having a beer with a couple of friends last night, and somehow I ended up discussing Foreign vs. American women with a female friend of mine.

We were talking about divorce and I told her that if an American man marries a foreign woman he is less likely to get a divorce.

What was her response?

"That's because foreign women just want to be servants!"

That's when the kid gloves came off and I told her MY opinion. I told her that American women tend to be less desirable because they are hellbent on COMPETING with a man instead of COMPLIMENTING him.

She started talking about how American women are "iindependent" She must have used the word independent 15 times in 5 minutes.

I won't go into the intricate details of the convo, but it went round and round with her asserting that women should be "independent" and me asserting that PEOPLE should be COOPERATIVE and work together to capitalize on their inherent strengths while compensating for the other person's weaknesses.

We talked about why the divorce rate is so high today. We both agreed that it has a lot to do with the fact that today divorce is much less stigmatized, but she couldn't see how women wanting to compete with men might play into the equation, or how a woman's desire to be "independent" (thus ensuring her self sufficiency) might also contribute to the high rate of divorces. In other words, if a woman knows she can go out and get a job, she has much less incentive to make a marriage work, and will be more inclined to file for divorce at the drop of a hat. She just couldn't see it.

Another interesting comment she made was that "back in the day" men wanted to control their women so they could run around cheating on them.

I asked her if she believed that overall women have it BETTER today than they did 30-40 years ago. She believes they do.

I followed up that question with "So do you believe that women today are HAPPIER than they were 30-40 years ago"?. She paused for a second and finally answered "Yes, I believe they are generally happier today than they were 30-40 years ago".

Me? I believe women DO have it better today. They are in the "have my cake and eat it too" period. But are they happier? I seriously doubt that.

What do you think?

 

[frivolousz21]

women say one thing and want another..that women you talked to wants to be dominated like every other women.


who cares what she says. Women run over weak men in relationships...women love, adore, respect, and serve strong men.

 

[Nighthawk]

In general modern women is not excited by the idea of complementing a man in a healthy relationship as much as they are in love with the idea of being an independent go-getting woman who has it all and doesn't 'need' a man for anything thank-you very much.

 

[Phyzzle]

We were talking about divorce and I told her that if an American man marries a foreign woman he is less likely to get a divorce.

What was her response?

"That's because foreign women just want to be servants!"

The better response is, "So a less domineering way is a better way to make a long lasting marriage? I agree." You can just agree with her, and make your point.

Also, "foreign women" is pretty broad. It encompasses third world women who will say or do anything to escape the festering hell-hole they live in. I don't think you were talking about that.

 

[Smack]

What most western women say they want is not at all what they want; it is what society - heavily under the influence of feminism - tells them that they want. An example is jobs. Do women really want high paying, hard working high skilled jobs? Or do they really still want to look after children at home, and do more complimentary jobs to males (secretary, for example)? If they wanted the former, then why aren't they doing it? Because they do not want the former. They want to fulfil their biological function to have kids, so they have kids. This greatly displeases feminists, who then blame the lack of females in top jobs on some sort of male supremacy rather than the fact that women, deep down inside, do not want this.

Women are the same biologically all over the world, and all will 'submit' to a dominant male, as nature intends. Nature doesn't intend for women to be men and vice versa. Succeeding in top jobs is akin to being the alpha male of the pack, the hunter gatherer, the provider. Therefore it makes sense that it is primarily men in these jobs because nature gave us the best traits for it.

Wow. The above is basically a long winded version of: "what women say they want is not always what they really want. Women all really want the same - to fulfil their biological function."

 

[Tzar]

There is no point in arguing with stubborn women like that.

 

[Mr.Positive]

Str8up, I think the biggest thing you tapped into is how competitive women are. I hope you have a good offense going into a discussion like this, because her defense just went into overtime.

You indirectly stated that she, as an american women, has a less chance of a fulfilling marriage than a foreign woman.

Good luck with that one!! haha.

Just as in our society today, masculinity is laughed at, scorned, and mocked. Femininity is seen as weak and submissive in our culture, at least western culture. Positive femininity is ridiculed too.

Women don't have it easy here either...because not only is she competing against other women to secure a top male, she is now being taught to compete against men too. It's against a woman's very nature to compete against men. Men compete against men, and women compete against women. That's nature.

Men can turn off competing with each other. Women can't. This is why you can have two guys fighting in a ring, such as boxing, and then after the fight..the winner and loser go out for a beer and watch a ballgame.

Women can get into a simple argument, and carry hostility towards each other for years.

Men come home after competing in the work environment, and we don't want to compete at home. We turn off that competition, we want to complement our women in a masculine way, just as we want women to complement us in a feminine way. It's a balance.

Women these days come home after competing in the world, but by nature, have a very hard time turning off that competition. They compete with men at home.

It's the balance that makes a good relationship. The most masculine guy is the best fit for the most feminine woman...and the most androgynous guy is the best fit for the most androgynous woman.

We're all fending for ourselves, which is why I'll never look down upon inter-cultural marriages, as long as he's happy, and she's happy.

It's best not to get into these conversations I've found. Just seek out what you want in a woman, that best compliments you.

 

[ketostix]

She started talking about how American women are "iindependent" She must have used the word independent 15 times in 5 minutes.

In other words, if a woman knows she can go out and get a job, she has much less incentive to make a marriage work, and will be more inclined to file for divorce at the drop of a hat. She just couldn't see it.

Yep this falls totally into my assertion that women (unfairly) competing against men economically is the crux of the matter. Any good feminist or woman in general realizes it.

 

[Nighthawk]

To be fair, being trapped in a marriage because of economic necessity is not complementing a man, it is dependency.

 

[Mr.Positive]

To be fair, being trapped in a marriage because of economic necessity is not complementing a man, it is dependency.

True, however hand-in-hand with independence, to be "independent" is to often times, be alone.

Just as women who were dependent upon men for economic necessity, men were dependent upon women too! To care for our families, and homes, while we were away working and providing.

Why is economics more of an important "job" than providing a healthy meal for our kids, and protecting them?

In my opinion, women do have it easier these days. People become tougher through hardships and challenge. Women had more challenge when they had the HUGE responsibility of taking care of a family and a home.

 

[ketostix]

Str8up, I think the biggest thing you tapped into is how competitive women are. I hope you have a good offense going into a discussion like this, because her defense just went into overtime.

You indirectly stated that she, as an american women, has a less chance of a fulfilling marriage than a foreign woman.

Good luck with that one!! haha.

Just as in our society today, masculinity is laughed at, scorned, and mocked. Femininity is seen as weak and submissive in our culture, at least western culture. Positive femininity is ridiculed too.

Women don't have it easy here either...because not only is she competing against other women to secure a top male, she is now being taught to compete against men too. It's against a woman's very nature to compete against men. Men compete against men, and women compete against women. That's nature.

Men can turn off competing with each other. Women can't. This is why you can have two guys fighting in a ring, such as boxing, and then after the fight..the winner and loser go out for a beer and watch a ballgame.

Women can get into a simple argument, and carry hostility towards each other for years.

I think you are confusing competition and conflict. Women may compete with other women and women might compete for economic resources with men. But this competition against men or a grudge aginst another woman is conflict not competition. It's more analagous to warfare than competition.

Men come home after competing in the work environment, and we don't want to compete at home. We turn off that competition, we want to complement our women in a masculine way, just as we want women to complement us in a feminine way. It's a balance.

Women these days come home after competing in the world, but by nature, have a very hard time turning off that competition. They compete with men at home.

This is conflict on her part not competition. There is a difference.

It's the balance that makes a good relationship. The most masculine guy is the best fit for the most feminine woman...and the most androgynous guy is the best fit for the most androgynous woman.

The way I see it, a female is either a conflicting feminsitic b1tch or she's not.

We're all fending for ourselves, which is why I'll never look down upon inter-cultural marriages, as long as he's happy, and she's happy.

Men are mostly fending for themselves, but women aren't really fending so much as They're out for themselves and everyone is helping them accomplish it.

It's best not to get into these conversations I've found. Just seek out what you want in a woman, that best compliments you.

I totally agree with you there, but you're not going to get much good out of a woman with a greedy, conflicting mindset.

 

[STR8UP]

Just as in our society today, masculinity is laughed, scorned, and mocked. Feminity is seen as weak and submissive in our culture, at least western culture.

And doesn't that put us all squarely in the middle of a battle we can't win....

Seriously, if masculinity is frowned upon as being crude and barbaric, and femininity is considered weak, what is considered good?

That's why our society so effen screwed up. Men are taught that it's bad to be masculine, and women are taught that it's bad to be feminine!

And that's what I was trying to get across to her.

If gender roles become blurry, sh!t falls apart.

But she's a typical woman in the respect that she's bough into the whole "independence" thing.

I told her that I have no desire for a woman who isn't interested in a cooperative effort. Do you ever hear a man talking about being independent? Not really. Why's that? Because we don't feel that we have anything to PROVE to women.

This independence thing....it's about women asserting their equality. We aren't fukking EQUAL dammit! We are DIFFERENT. One isn't better than the other, we compliment each other. What women don't understand is that which they strive for is what is making them unhappy and unsatisfied.

Women don't have it easy here...because not only is she competing against other women to secure a top male, she is now being taught to compete against men too. It's against a woman's very nature to compete against men. Men compete against men, and women compete against women. That's nature.

Exactly. And this is what they will never understand.

Romantic relationships ARE adversarial in men and women are both seeking to secure something for themselves, but the complimentary nature of the sexes (strong/weak, emotional/logical, etc) is what creates the synergy that has the potential to make two halves better than the whole, but it will never be that way if men don't learn to step up their game (positive masculinity) and women don't learn to back down (not try to become more masculine).

Men come home after competing in the work environment, and we don't want to compete at home. We turn off that competition, we want to complement our women in a masculine way, just as we want women to complement us in a feminine way. It's a balance.

I've posted about this before.

This is a BIG reason why we have so many relationship problems these days.

A man can't come home to a "refuge" away from the completion. Quite the contrary. Nowadays he has to come home and face MORE competition with a woman who constantly challenges him. Women test men to ensure their investment, then they turn right around and challenge a man's masculine role, trying to usurp power. Part of it is the idea that a vacuum is created, as Rollo would say, but part of it is because women push so hard that it CREATES this vacuum that otherwise would not exist.

It's best not to get into these conversations I've found. Just seek out what you want in a woman, that best compliments you.

With this particular chick we have a great time debating male/female stuff. It's not really serious. We know neither side will ever win.

As far as the complimenting thing....that's the hard part. With the prevailing attitude of women being that they must be "strong and independent", it might take awhile to find a woman who accepts things as they should be. Why am I single and never married at 36? This is a BIG part of the reason.

 

[Mr.Positive]

I think you are confusing competition and conflict. Women may compete with other women and women might compete for economic resources with men. But this competition against men or a grudge aginst another woman is conflict not competition. It's more analagous to warfare than competition.

Good points Keto, perhaps that's the crux, women sometimes can't tell the difference between competition, and conflict.

 

[ketostix]

To be fair, being trapped in a marriage because of economic necessity is not complementing a man, it is dependency.

What about being dependent on your job or employer which makes it difficult if not impossible for her to raise children? The independent woman is actually the most dependent woman-depending on the mindset of AA and society's acceptance of feminism to thrive.. The difference is she's not as accountable.

 

[ketostix]

Good points Keto, perhaps that's the crux, women can't tell the difference between competition, and conflict.

I agree because it's unnecessary and unnatural for women to compete. Conflict is a different matter though.

 

[youngwilliam]

I'll add this, I'm married to a Brazilian, and my meals are cooked, my clothes are washed, and my house gets cleaned. All without one complaint. I in no way think of her as a servant, in fact, I'm pretty lucky. So, to summarize, in my opinion, foreign women are the way to go. They don't get caught up in all that sterotypical relationship bs. At least mine doesn't.

 

[Latinoman]

I would not waste my time talking to an American woman about American woman. In fact, I would not even waste my time talking about relationships with the people you socialize with.

It won't help you. Women talk to much, and the last thing you want is some woman "friend" telling other female friends that you are "bitter". It is not worthy.

Having said that...I agree with most you wrote in your original post.

 

[slaog]

It's the balance that makes a good relationship. The most masculine guy is the best fit for the most feminine woman...and the most androgynous guy is the best fit for the most androgynous woman.

True.

I've noticed that agressive/butch women are best suited to weak men who do what they're told. The women run the show and the weak men will just put up with it.

Masculine men and feminine women on the other hand are perfectly matched. A good healthy relationship.

 

[Smack]

Really?

I'd imagine that even the most masculinated female could be feminised by a true alpha male.

 

[edger]

If they wanted the former, then why aren't they doing it? Because they do not want the former.

They're not doing the former because the men they are with are CHUMPS who give them money and let them live off the fat-of-the-land. The men tell these women it's "ok" to be a free-loader. Men are their own worst enemies and only f*ck things up for themselves and for the rest of their fellow men. Men do not know how to unite with one another like women do. If we did, and stood together, we wouldn't have so many of the problems we have today. It's the truth.

I was speaking to one of my co-workers(he's in his 40's) today about this and he absolutely agree's. He told me his wife WORKS and contributes.