"Stay Single"

[bp1974]

I've been coming to the same conclusions recently about the idea of legal marriage versus social marriage. I used to think that marriage was the natural, right way to go, and it's possible I could meet a woman for whom I would think that again, but right now, I doubt it.

What does a man have to gain from marriage?

- It's a sign of commitment to each other.
But it isn't anymore, is it. Divorces are easier to be had than ever before, so where's the commitment? You both know you can leave whenever you like.

- Lots of sex.
Available everywhere.

- Partnership.
You don't need to be married to be an equal partner to someone.

- A legal right to expect your wife's fidelity.
Doesn't mean a damn thing. If she's going to cheat, she'll cheat, if she isn't, she won't. The legalities are irrelevant nowadays, and the social stigma of infidelity has vanished.

- Your kids won't be called b*stards
Illegitimacy isn't a stigma anymore, so who cares.

Against marriage:

- Between 10-20% of all children (depending on the source) are being brought up by men who think they are the kids fathers, but aren't

- 50% of all marriages end in divorce, and of the other 50%, there'll be plenty of infidelity, abuse and misery

- The woman is more likely to leave you than you her

- If she cheats on you and you divorce her, she still gets half your stuff. Prenups have become irrelevant and powerless

- If you have kids, you can't rely on the courts to give you any rights as a father. Even if they do, if she ups sticks and moves away, you can do nothing about it. Mothers are hardly ever prosecuted for breaking access arrangements

- If you have kids and divorce in the UK, if you don't get a legally valid DNA test at the point of divorce (which requires the mother's approval and participation) and it turns out later that they're not your kids, it doesn't matter, you still have to pay for their upbringing.

- Fathers nowadays are basically seen as irrelevant to the lives of their children, and that's how they are treated by the courts. All they're good for is cold cash.

As the divorce laws have become slanted more and more in favour of the woman, and the easiness of divorce has increased (again to the woman's advantage - it's mainly women who instigate divorce, 2:1 I think), the more it seems that marriage is an unnecessary legal minefield for a man nowadays.

I'm all for the idea of social marriage when the time is right for you. A longterm LTR with someone, children, is a natural step for a mature adult to take at some point in their life. But, as a man, the legal side of it just doesn't make any sense to me.

And regardless of how much I love a woman or she me, as soon as the first kid pops out, married or no, I'm going to get a DNA test. You can get over 99% certainty just with your own and the kid's DNA - no need to involve mum at all.

Like the Muslims say - "Trust in Allah, but always tie your horse up".

Here's a good article:

The Marriage Strike
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/...ial/3604644.htm

Oh yeah - this guy's pretty bitter and twisted but he has some interesting things to say in the free articles:

http://nomarriage.com

bp1974

 

[The Professional]

You see the thing is, you guys are just talking about marriage in this country's culture. I'm asian, but for the most part, pretty much americanized in my opinions and lifestyle so I don't really agree with most of the ways of my culture's tradition. But in the culture of my race(won't say which, those of you who are will know ), when you go "marry" a woman, in my language, it literally means "buy" a wife.

Women in my culture are pretty much property throughout their entire lives. When they are born they belong to the parents. And when they are old enough(quite often as young as 13 or 14), and some guy who comes along wants to buy her, the groom's family just finds the money and she is sold. No BS or anything. Well there is a ceremony in which the groom's character is tested by how much abuse he can take and alcohol he can drink.

Once married the man in the marriage still has the say in everthing and anything. If he wants to f*ck around, he may do as he wishes, as long as it doesn't bring shame to his relatives. And if the guy finds another woman he wants, he can buy her too. Bigamy isn't really promoted in my culture, but it's generally accepted.

So I suppose that a lot of people here on these message boards would consider this to be the ideal situation. But I don't really agree with it too much. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't want a control freak b*tch of a wife either. But I want to marry a girl who is intelligent and strong-willed in her opinions(along with being smokin' hot of course ).

Anyone remember Eddie Murphy in Coming to America? Remember at the beginning where he was talking to his first bride to be? He asked her what she liked to do, and she told him "Whatever you like to do?" Whatever Eddie's character asked her about, it was always about him. Eventually Eddie got her hopping on one foot and grunting like an orangutan. It was quite amusing. Although it's irrationally exaggerated here, you see what I mean when any one party has significantly more control than the other.

I believe a true marriage should be a mutual experience. Give and take in balance. No game playing, betrayal, or any other ****ting around. If you don't trust each other enough, just don't get married.

As for those of you who want to stay single just because it's a more simpler lifestyle, I know what you mean. I' m a subscriber to simplicity in life. But remember also, that sometimes a little more work to maintain a complex situation can be deeply gratifying.

Well that's all I have to say. Whew, that was more than I expected to write.

 

[sux2bu]

Marriage is not the end of masturbation, it's just the beginning. If you think you masturbate a lot now, wait until you get married. If non-stop sex is your reason for getting married, you are deluding yourself.

 

[Gold Heart]

Single all the way. Maybe if I found someone painfully close to perfect, I would consider it. But for now, I'm having WAY too much fun to just give it up to a comitment that majority of the time will not work right.

 

[Rahul]

I'm gonna get married...

When I'm 65 to a hot blonde 25 year old with implants who will suck my d*ck all day long and then get all of my millions when I die.

I'll have a single and fun life and then won't have to worry about being along when I grow old.

 

[lynx]

I had a 65-year-old uncle who was dating women in their forties (and probably younger) when he died by falling down some steps. The rumor is that he was coming back from seeing some much younger woman. He was quite a charming old man, always taking care of himself by taking walks and being cheerful. He didn't look like a young buck, but he did look like a respectable and dignified old man, very much like Sean Connery does nowadays. He was married once, but his wife died when my uncle was forty. After that, he lived the life of a bachelor. I went to his funeral and there were lots of women there, including several young women. I am sure that most of these young women were either daughters or former lovers of my uncle. This happened in a small Latin country a while back but I think it can happen in other places as well.

 

[silverdog]

amen to this, so wonderfully written as well, I to have decided to go against marriage, and i meant that, just the concept of legaly chaining your self to a woman, how horrible! no siree, i like being single, even if i dont get ass regulary, beats the honey covered jesus out of being married, oh on the sex thing, i know of two married guys, i have actualy seen hardcore porn vidoes underneath there beds or hidden some where! the reasons are obvious, no love tacco for them.

 

[legolas]

Originally posted by bp1974

Oh yeah - this guy's pretty bitter and twisted but he has some interesting things to say in the free articles:

http://nomarriage.com

bp1974

bp, I can't thank you enough for pointing me ot this site!!!

This guys is f*cking right!!!

Not only is it REALLY hard to find a half/decent american girl with good values and all, but the article about foreign chicks is just f*cking awsome!! I see this everywhere. I was at a party recently and most of the girls there were american/american-born college girls (white/back/asian whatever doesn't matter)

What I saw disgusted me in more ways than one

I saw these college educated american-born girls who were meeting guys for the first time that night and tying up the bathroom line when they went in there with them to "get it on" Now I'm not american myself, soon to be though. I was born in an eastern europian country that had decent values for marriage and life, and that was before the "democracy" took over and f*cked everything up.

The thing is that you could go to college and meet very fine classy women who were educated and wanted a good man in their lives and that was it. Now I think "democracy" has made it so that those values are poisioned with american values and as such it is creating a breed of women who are "americanzed" even without being here in America.

Now at that party I also happened to meet some very fine, educated, and gorgeous latina girls. I was taken aback at what I had been missing. Very fine girls with brains and a very nice easygoing personality, that when you add good family values, you end up with my concept of the "perfect" woman.

By the way this guy (http://www.nomarriage.com) must be a visitor in this site since some of his articles are a mirror of what we talk about here. His article on foreign women was absolutely brilliant, I totally agree. That's even more reasons for me to not waste my time with "Americanized" chicks, unless maybe if they were brought up religiously and with good values, but still.

And to end this, I think it is not important whether marriage was invented by men or by women. The fact is that at some point in time, it was needed by both men and women and it was created for those reasons, whatever they may be, which is still irrelevant for the purposes here. Then over the years, to the concept of marriage was added a whole slew of other criteria depending pn what was going on at the time, especially during the women rights movement.

I recently read an article on feminisnm that was a mirror of what Pook posted here, and that many females are realizing that feminism is about being more female than equal, which is why we have seen a trend of movies like Legally Blonde come up.

But I digress.

EDIT: (removed good sex)

If you want children and a life partner who will love you and support you, then you have to find yourselves a good girl with good moral values and religiously protect her from "americanism"

BP, thanks again. I needed the jolt! And of course bumping this thread has been my pleasure.

 

[WaterTiger]

It's not any easier for women to find a good guy either. I'm very independent and don't like depending on others for anything. I pay my own rent, buy my own $250 Italian shoes and this intimidates the hell out of guys.

They guys I'm looking to date (early to late 40's) are either bitter divorce survivors(Women haters), have severe social problems (Gods of Geekdom) or they are going thru their second teen-hood(Wanna be a playa).

The "Woman Haters" boast about how they'll never marry again. No woman is going to screw him again and the next b!tch in his life is going to know he's the boss. To which my response is :"Waiter? Check please!"

The "Wanna-be-a-playa" you guys have seen. The 45 year old guy at a popular club with his beer-belly under a silk shirt, his thinning hair under a fresh coat of dye and he's trying to pick up a 19 year old HB9. He thinks he's SO cool, every one else thinks he's an idiot.

As for the "Gods of Geekdom" all those AFC nerds who grew up to guys who've never been married and think discussing algo-rhythyms is stimulating conversation. I'm dating one now and I think I'll keep him, basicly because there's nothing else out there.

 

[cyclonus_revisited]

You say you are a looking for a man in his 40's, and that you haven't found a "good guy".


What are you looking for? What constitutes a "good guy"?

What do you have to offer?

 

[Silquee Smoove]

Re: "Stay Single"

Originally posted by RKTek
Were a young man to ask me, "To marry perchance, or remain forever single?" I would, given the
hostile circumstances today of law and love, urge caution. "Marriage is a commitment of several years
of your life, plus child support," I would say. "Do not make it rashly."

The question is simply, "Why marry?" As a young man full of dangerous steroids, your answer will
probably be, "Ah, because her hair is like corn silk under an August moon; her lips are as rubies and
her teeth, pearls; and her smile would make a dead man cry." This amounts to, "I'm horny," with
elaborations. It is as it ought to be. The race continues because maidens are glorious, and striplings
both desperate and unwise.

Note, incidentally, that by the time October rolls around, corn silk is shriveled and brown.

Why marry, indeed? In times past, marriage occasionally made sense. Life on a farm required two
people, a woman to work herself ragged in the cabin while the man carried heavy lumpish things and
shot Indians. Later, come suburbia, the man did something tedious in an office and the woman did two
hours housework and stayed bored for six. It worked, tolerably. In the Fifties, nobody expected much
of life. It generally met their expectations.

And there was sex, though not enough of it -- the scarcity being the propellant behind matrimony. Back
then, before the miracle of feminism, women had not yet commoditized themselves. A lad had to pop
the question before he got laid regular. Women controlled the carnal economy and, in a world that was
going to be boring anyway, that was probably a good thing. At least kids had parents.

Times change. Some advice to young fellows setting forth:

First, forget that her lips are sweet as honeydew melon (though not, of course, green). It doesn't last.
One of nature's more disagreeable tricks is that while men are far uglier than women, they age better.
Remember this. It is useful to reflect in moments of unguided passion that, beneath the skin, we are all
wet bags of unpleasant organs.

Soon you will be a balding sofa ornament and she will look like a fireplug with cellulite. Once the
packaging deteriorates, there had better be something to get you through the next thirty years. Usually
there isn't.

Prospects have improved for the single of both genders. Sex is nowadays always available. If you don't
marry Moon Pie, which would be wise, you may get another chance when she comes back on the
market with the first wave of divorcees. It's never now-or-never. Getting older doesn't diminish your
opportunities. As you gain experience, you will recognize the tides, the eddies, the whirlpools of
coupling -- the urgency of the biological clock, the lunacy of menopause. Men by comparison embody a
wonderful clod-like simplicity.

As you ponder snuggling forever with Moon Pie, compare the lives of your bachelor and your married
friends. The bachelors come and go as the mood strikes them, order their apartments with squalid
abandon, drive Miatas or Harleys if they choose, and live in such pleasant dissolution as is consonant
with continued employment. The married guy lives in a vast echoing mortgage beyond his means,
drives sensible cars he doesn't like, and loses his old friends because he isn't allowed to hang out with
them.

Self-help books to the contrary, marriage does not rest on compromises, but on concessions. You will
make all of them. Perhaps it doesn't have to be this way. But it is this way.

Moon Pie has only one reason for marriage: to get her legal hooks into you. She doesn't think of it in
these terms, yet, and she has no evil intentions. She just wants a nice quiet home in the remote
suburbs where she can live uneventfully, raise progeny, and keep her eye on you.

If you think surveillance isn't part of the contract, try going out late with your old buddies. Marriage is
an institution founded on mistrust. If she thought you would stick around if not compelled, she wouldn't
need marriage. She wants monogamy, at least for you and, with some frequency, for herself. She knows
viscerally that you would prefer the amorous insouciance of an oversexed alley cat. You know it
consciously. Marriage exists to control the male, until recently a good idea. Now, however, she can
support herself, and doesn't need protection. She doesn't need you, or you, her.

She will, however, want to have children. Women do. At which point, God help you.

Given the schools, drugs, latch-keyism consequent first to working parents and then to divorce, and
the cultural pressure on children to be slatterns and dope-dealers, reproduction is a gamble. You may
not even particularly like them, or they, you. Nobody talks about this, but how many people do you
know who hardly talk to their grown children?

And you've just tied yourself into twenty years of raising them.

The moment Junior enters wherever it is that we are, Moon Pie will have you screwed to the wall. She
won't think of it this way, yet. She'll be delighted with the cooing bundle of joy, his little fingers, his
little toes, etc. But divorce usually comes. The chances are two to one that she will file: Women are
more eager than men to enter marriage, and more eager to leave it -- with the kids, the house, and the
child support. It won't be amicable, not after seven years. You will be astonished at how ruthless she
will be, how well she knows the law, and how utterly hostile to divorcing fathers the law is.

You don't understand how bad the divorce courts are. You probably don't know what "imputed income"
is. You think that "joint custody" means "joint custody." Think again. Quite possibly you will have to
support her while she moves with your kids to Fukuoka with an Air Force colonel she met in a meat
bar.

In short, marriage often means turning twenty-five years of your life into smoking wreckage. Yes,
happy marriages exist (I personally know of one) and there are the somnolent marriages of habitual
contentment or, perhaps, of quiet resignation. But the odds aren't good.

Permit me an heretical thought. In an age when neither sex economically needs the other, in which
women do not need protection from wild bears and marauding savages, not in the suburbs anyway,
perhaps marriage doesn't make sense, at least for men. The divorce courts remove all doubt. A young
fellow might do well to stay single, keep his DNA to himself, pick such flowers as he might find along
the way, and live his life as he likes.

The above was copied from:
http://www.fredoneverything.net/MoonPie.html
(c) Fred Reed 2002

Well said!! I go to http://www.nomarriage.com for a lot of my reasons against marriage and now I'll check your site out too.

Marriage is for the norm, those who cannot hold themselves from sexual sin, it would be better for them to marry. But the exception is to stay celibate and just stay out of that mess.

 

[Betterthanyesterday]

Bump

 

[Dash Riprock]

The most interesting thing about this thread is reading all the posts from 2002-2003 about marriage. They were saying the same thing back then most guys say now. Only now, I feel the tables are tilted even further toward the female in a divorce.

Nothing technically *wrong* with marriage. Some guys just want the security and companionship. But, it's like going on DraftKings and betting a +1000 (10-1 odds) moneyline. 60% chance it will end in divorce, and of the remaining, 30% of married couples are miserable but stay married anyway for various reasons. Which means you have about a 10%, and that may be generous, chance of a decent marriage if you *really* work at it and give up almost all your freedoms and interests. Everything is now a team decision. Throw in kids and it's game over if you want to focus on your solo goals as kids are now the #1 driver of your life.

You can be in a loving, committed, monogamous relationship (even with kids) without signing your life and future away, losing all your leverage, having a bloated $30,000 ceremony, and getting a license from the state.

 

[RickTheToad]

The most interesting thing about this thread is reading all the posts from 2002-2003 about marriage. They were saying the same thing back then most guys say now. Only now, I feel the tables are tilted even further toward the female in a divorce.

Nothing technically *wrong* with marriage. Some guys just want the security and companionship. But, it's like going on DraftKings and betting a +1000 (10-1 odds) moneyline. 60% chance it will end in divorce, and of the remaining, 30% of married couples are miserable but stay married anyway for various reasons. Which means you have about a 10%, and that may be generous, chance of a decent marriage if you *really* work at it and give up almost all your freedoms and interests. Everything is now a team decision. Throw in kids and it's game over if you want to focus on your solo goals as kids are now the #1 driver of your life.

You can be in a loving, committed, monogamous relationship (even with kids) without signing your life and future away, losing all your leverage, having a bloated $30,000 ceremony, and getting a license from the state.

Who hurt you Dash?

 

[Dash Riprock]

Who hurt you Dash?

Lol, no one in particular. Just voicing my opinion.

I just see too many good guys getting sucked in and spit out. Guys with a lot of potential, innovative ideas, and drive. They give in to the old social norm of marriage and are never the same, whether they stay in the marriage or not. 80-90% anyway. Marriage rates are declining for a number of reasons.

I may be carrying the flag alone, and that's fine, but my message is to not get pressured by people telling you what you "should" do or what society dictates. Female companionship is fine, and kids are even ok, but neither are worth betting your life on as we only go once around the ride.

Cool?

 

[RickTheToad]

Lol, no one in particular. Just voicing my opinion.

I just see too many good guys getting sucked in and spit out. Guys with a lot of potential, innovative ideas, and drive. They give in to the old social norm of marriage and are never the same, whether they stay in the marriage or not. 80-90% anyway. Marriage rates are declining for a number of reasons.

I may be carrying the flag alone, and that's fine, but my message is to not get pressured by people telling you what you "should" do or what society dictates. Female companionship is fine, and kids are even ok, but neither are worth betting your life on as we only go once around the ride.

Cool?

I was kidding. That's what a lot of people say to dudes who are against marriage. Over the next decade or so things may change as females start to earn more than dudes. However, marriage today and marriage from our parents and prior are two different things. A family friend of 20+ years is now getting divorced. He has a good job, three kids and a useless wife (soon to be ex-wife). He also lives in NJ, so since they've been married for over 10 years, she may be able to receive lifetime alimony. It's unreal.

 

[Barrister]

I wouldn't give up my daughter for anything - but I can safely say that looking back my marriage was a failure from almost any angle. We were a mismatch as far as intelligence and ambition/goals. We also had very different expectations as far as what the marriage was to look like on a day-to-day and week-to-week basis. Part of this may have been we were young (I was 26 when I got married). However, I remember proposing to her partly because I felt like it was expected that I do so at that point in my life. I almost thought about proposing to my last LTR at about the 5 month mark -- then at about he 6 month mark major drama ensued and it was a roller coaster thereafter. This was actually almost a bigger blow to my belief in the institution because I felt like my last LTR and I were so right on so many levels at the outset - only to find we were in fact a bad match as well.

I am maybe still a little idealistic. I would be open to marriage with the exact right type of person. I have yet to see that though in my life though and I think I would absolutely make sure I had a pre-nup in place (which is sure to cause some waves no matter what). This is further complicated now by the fact I have a kid from a previous relationship.