Something Is Troubling PVSSY-EATER

[MetalFortress]

---First off, I will commend you Metal Fortress, for not losing your cool. A lot of people get really defensive when they feel their views are being attacked, and though you have defended your beliefs, you kept your cool...I respect that!---

Thank you.

---Second of all, I want to apologize if my tone comes across as bitter or judgemental. It's just that I really do believe in what Jesus had to say and it angers me how his message has been distorted over time to suit the needs of the greedy...more on this in a bit.---

Regarding the Apocrypha, which you mentioned down there, it is still used in Roman Catholicism today, as far as I know.

---Correct me if I am wrong, but in order to be a Christian, you must condemn all other reilgions. My family is mostly "born-againers" and I have had this debate with them (and a few preachers) countless times. It's not so much that the message of Christianity is wrong. It's that you guys are so convinced you are right, that you completely disqualify everyone else's way of spirituality. In this way, Christians all play God, believing they have the divine answers and the rest of the world are Satan's brides.---

The reason we are convinced we are right, is because Jesus himself said that the only way to the Father is through the Son. Either Jesus said it and it was recorded, or it was completely made up and added in at random. Is this what you believe?

---The crux of my problem with these so-called "followers of Christ" is that they believe that good people go to hell just because they don't go through the formality of accepting Jesus, specifically, as their lord and savior. This is the very essence of what fundamentalism is all about, the message is the same in all extremist cults...."we are right and everyone else is going to hell"

Feel me?---

Read below.

---Your riddle is stuck inside the assumption that the Bible is 100% true and untainted by human corruption. Perhaps I am a lesser man for saying this, but I don't put nearly as much faith in mankind as you do!---

My "riddle" is only with the assumption that God sent His son Jesus to die for the sins of man. Do you believe that to be true? If so, how do other methods of getting to heaven fit in?

Also, the essence of pretty much every other religion is doing things to please God enough to get you into heaven/paradise/nirvana/a better reincarnation. Isn't this kind of like being God's court jester while on earth, and God saying "OFF WITH THE HEAD" if you don't amuse Him enough?

---It's impossible to prove the accuracy of historical events. All we can do is take different stories, and fit them together to make a big picture.---

Of course... this is where faith comes in.

As for the rest of it, I know the history, and I know that the church has been corrupted before, and been used to exact political power over entire civilizations. And I believe God will overthrow those churches which use their power for that - not directly but through His servants. Take, for example, Martin Luther and the Protestant reformers. If it weren't for them, what would the world be like today? Would the church rule the world, and have become even more corrupt? Would there be a USA? Would the Bible even exist anymore?

Today is the age of information, and there is no better time than the present era for God's word to be "uncorrupted", due to the ease of acquiring and finding information. If you are right and words Jesus spoke declaring that which goes against traditional Biblical Christian beliefs today, then let it come. If not, then so be it.

"The way genuine Christians can be recognized was explained by Jesus himself: "By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves." (John 13:35)
Notice he makes no mention of his divine status here. Strange, isn't it? "

Not really. His status is pretty much assumed at this point.

 

[Cloud-uk]

Also, the essence of pretty much every other religion is doing things to please God enough to get you into heaven/paradise/nirvana/a better reincarnation. Isn't this kind of like being God's court jester while on earth, and God saying "OFF WITH THE HEAD" if you don't amuse Him enough?

Isn't this just like christainity though? Let's not forget, the biggest commandment is not don't kill each other (which isn't even a commandment) or don't blow up the planet, but love god with all your body and mind and heart.

Which sounds a bit self centered to me. I don't know... I understand theism through the eyes of an athiest alone. I know damn well I can never 'get' the meaning of it other than the purely superficial, because to go further than that needs belief, and that's not something I have or want.

Metal Fortress, would you concider yourself a fundamentalist christian then? I kind of hate to bring it up, but then what do you feel about the damnations of homosexuals and women? If you don't like them, is it because of the bible or because of personal feelings?

(By the way I don't know the reference for the homosexual bit and the woman bit I'm attributing to Eve's punishment, which was quite harsh all things concidered. Snake got away pretty easy...)

 

[MetalFortress]

---Isn't this just like christainity though? Let's not forget, the biggest commandment is not don't kill each other (which isn't even a commandment) or don't blow up the planet, but love god with all your body and mind and heart.---

The second biggest is to love your neighbor as yourself. Basically, all other commandments fall under those two. Would you kill your neighbor if you loved him as yourself?

---Which sounds a bit self centered to me. I don't know... I understand theism through the eyes of an athiest alone. I know damn well I can never 'get' the meaning of it other than the purely superficial, because to go further than that needs belief, and that's not something I have or want.---

If there is no greater being than God, then why should God be humble and pretend there is? He knows who's in charge up there, and I wouldn't want a God who wouldn't want His will done above all else.

---Metal Fortress, would you concider yourself a fundamentalist christian then? I kind of hate to bring it up, but then what do you feel about the damnations of homosexuals and women? If you don't like them, is it because of the bible or because of personal feelings?---

I just consider myself a believer of Christ. God can save murderers, liars, and adulterers, thus God can save homosexuals. As for women, I can't think of even one sect of Christianity or anywhere in the Bible that has anything against women. I obviously don't either, and to be honest, if I posted what I had in mind everytime someone posted a message saying "I hate women" "all women are wh0res" "all women are stupid" whatever, I wouldn't look like very much of a Christian. Not that I'm a feminist either.

---(By the way I don't know the reference for the homosexual bit and the woman bit I'm attributing to Eve's punishment, which was quite harsh all things concidered. Snake got away pretty easy...)---

The snake being satan, I wouldn't consider having his head crushed, and knowing that after the endtimes he and his demons are going to be thrown in the lake of fire, very "easy".

 

[Don Ronny]

Well MetalFortress, it looks like we will have to agree to disagree yet again. Personally, I believe that the heads of the Church embellished Jesus' status in order to hold a wider reign of control. I believe that he was the Son of God, but definitely not God himself.

My reasoning:

1. God Is All Knowing.....But Jesus Was Not

When speaking of the Day of Judgement, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32 and Matt. 24:36) But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the Day of Judgement would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.

2. God Is All-Powerful.....But Jesus Was Not

While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..." (John 5:19). Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." (John 5:30) But God is not only All-Powerful, He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.

3. God Does Not Have A God.....But Jesus Did Have A God

God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was One whom he worshipped and to Whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17). He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46). If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?". Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's Prayer (Luke 11:2-4), was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt." (Matt. 26:36). Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped, and prayed to another being as God is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.

According to the Bible, God is an invisible spirit....

4. But Jesus Was Flesh And Blood

While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said: "No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18). "Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." (John 5:37) He also said in John 4:24: "God is a spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God at any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.

NO ONE IS GREATER THAN GOD AND NO ONE CAN DIRECT HIM...
BUT JESUS ACKNOWLEDGED
SOMEONE GREATER THAN HIMSELF WHOSE...
5. Will Was Distinct From His Own

Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, comes again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in John 14:28: "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as a good master in Luke 18:19, Jesus responded: "Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is God..." Furthermore, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." (John 8:42) Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God, when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but Thine be done" and in John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.

Conclusion
The Church recognises the Bible as the primary source of knowledge about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus, upon what basis have you come to believe otherwise?

The belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity is false and completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as presented in the Bible. God is one, not three. He is a perfect unity.

 

[Cloud-uk]

The second biggest is to love your neighbor as yourself. Basically, all other commandments fall under those two. Would you kill your neighbor if you loved him as yourself?

Yes, but that's my point- the second biggest. In the scale of things doesn't that mean that obedience and love to said deity is of greater worth than the lives of other humans? By the way with the 'Don't kill your neighbour' thing I was refering to the phrasing of 'Thou shalt not commit murder', so if you kill another not in the context of murder it is not a sin? I don't disagree with that at all, but it just sounds like a funny thing for the bible to say.

If there is no greater being than God, then why should God be humble and pretend there is? He knows who's in charge up there, and I wouldn't want a God who wouldn't want His will done above all else.

If he's perfect why is he not free from want? Not that I know perfection or will ever know it for that matter, but surely a perfect deity would wish to guide his followers for their greater good, not make them obey to fulfil a supernatural-power trip?

The snake being satan, I wouldn't consider having his head crushed, and knowing that after the endtimes he and his demons are going to be thrown in the lake of fire, very "easy".

For being the embodiment of evil it is! Woman makes one mistake and it's death and pregancy. Snake ruins paradice and gets a free run until judgement: when he'll probably get the same treatment as me. 'Sup Satan, you here for the lava?'.

By the way I'm sure that there is nowhere in the bible that reference is actually made to satan. You've got the sneaky snake and a jerk of an angel, but satan? Surely he provides waaay to many hideous contradictions and problems for you to believe in his existence?

With the horns and everything?

 

[OklyDokly]

Hey this is an interesting thread. Thought I'd post my views of inner peace as a qualified philosopher.

What I've discovered the paradox of inner peace and joy is that you don't find it by searching for it. To emphasis this point, lets take an analogy of an intelligent homing missile. If we imagine the missile as having a mind, then we can see it as being split into two components:

1. A destination
2. A certain intelligent programming which can adjust the missiles path.

Now imagine that the missile was so intelligent that it had the ability to psycho-analyze itself, and hence was self aware. Question is would the missile ever reach it's destination?

Now if we take this to be analogous to a man, then we can relate the destination to a mans purpose, and the intelligent programming to a man's rationality. The point is that they can often conflict without faith, and so faith and fortitude come hand in hand. All faith therefore is, is the ability not to let your internal programming get in the way of your heartfelt purpose, and it just is, you won't find it through analysis.

Anyway this is a lot to explain in one post, so I'll just leave it at that for the time-being.

PS a great book to read on this if you haven't done so already is Paulo Coelho - The Alchemist.

 

[Cloud-uk]

^^^^ Yeah it is a good book, very clever.

This may sound strange but I detest the idea that life could have a point to it, or that there could be life after death. Hate it, hate it so much.

What do we mean by life anyway? What we are really concerned about are our own lives, singular. We want to know what the point of us is. What the hell are we supposed to do?

Well what do you want to do!?

We live in a veritable sand-box for the mind. The world is a huge play-pen for our enjoyment. And it's on a time limit! When you die that's it, the end of the book of your life. There is no 'next level' to regret, to be judged, to feel contented.

If I created a film, no- a computer game- the greatest made in the world. You could see amazing things, do loads of crazy stuff, in a world as big as ours, it would be a massive flop. The nerds of the world would hate it- why? Because they wouldn't know what to do in it. Either that, or they'd start to make up their own plots and goals within it. Either way, people in general can't handle being given a free run. As children we are told to go do things, and we get pleasure from completeing these tasks. Why would we suddently forget our conditioning in adulthood?

So we make our own tasks up, and when it turns out that they haven't delivered us the perfect joy we assumed would arise, we go a bit crazy. Hence mid-life crisis.

All you have to do is realise you don't like the idea because you've been taught not to; not because you're human or it's wrong.

 

[OklyDokly]

But does it really make sense to say there's no life after death?
Such a question seems similar to asking if there is a god?

The answer I believe here is that it all depends how you define a concept. To elaborate on this a little, I tend to relate to Einstein's theory of relativity and his idea of frames of reference. A frame of reference as I remember can be thought of a single observer to the way that time and space is. Each and every on of us are one of these observers. However when we talk about life rather than time of space, we seem to have to acknowledge that everyone of these frames of reference has an end, namely our certain death?

But is this actually the case? Does our own existence have to end as soon as the lights go out? I believe this depends on how we see our existence, or in other words how narrowly we draw our frame of reference. Consider a small computer program created by a programmer. If the computer program was deleted from every computer that it existed on, would the program cease to exist? The answer could be yes, but as long as the programmer still lives then the program could probably still be recreated. In other words the program still exists in the programmer's head but it simply just takes a different form.

Similarly when we pass on our memories, our experiences, our culture we leave traces of ourselves in other peoples mind. When people read books by novelists, see great paintings by famous painters, listen to powerful pieces of music by well known composers, they recreate a piece of the artist in their own mind, just as the programmer may have recreated the program. If we adopt this perspective, it would appear that people do live on after death, but their existence would be different to anything they have ever experienced and could possibly comprehend.

This is possibly what Coelho means when he talks about the 'Soul of The World'...

 

[MetalFortress]

---Yes, but that's my point- the second biggest. In the scale of things doesn't that mean that obedience and love to said deity is of greater worth than the lives of other humans? By the way with the 'Don't kill your neighbour' thing I was refering to the phrasing of 'Thou shalt not commit murder', so if you kill another not in the context of murder it is not a sin? I don't disagree with that at all, but it just sounds like a funny thing for the bible to say.---

Actually, I misphrased my last response. Jesus names those two in that order "love the Lord with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself", but He does not say that one is greater than the other. He only says that those two commandments are what the entirity of God's law depends on. (ref: Matthew 22)

---If he's perfect why is he not free from want? Not that I know perfection or will ever know it for that matter, but surely a perfect deity would wish to guide his followers for their greater good, not make them obey to fulfil a supernatural-power trip?---

God does wish to guide His followers for their greater good. Where did I or the Bible give any indication that He did not?

-----For being the embodiment of evil it is! Woman makes one mistake and it's death and pregancy. Snake ruins paradice and gets a free run until judgement: when he'll probably get the same treatment as me. 'Sup Satan, you here for the lava?'.-----

Well first off, both woman and man got punished. Second, the Bible does make reference to different degrees of punishment after death. Hitler isn't going to get the same degree of punishment after death as your average unsaved will, obviously. Death and the grave will be thrown into the lake of fire at the end times, according to Revelations. "The grave" is where the unsaved will be until then, but God never gave eternal life to the unsaved - only the saved. In other words, the saved will live forever in Heaven, but the unsaved will not live forever anywhere. As well, Revelations refers to the lake of fire as the "second death."

When death and the grave are thrown in, that means they will cease to exist. It's reasonable to believe, then, that all in the grave will die again and cease to exist as well. As for satan and his demons, they are outside the realm of death. Whether or not they will burn to death or burn forever without dying is something only God knows, but I think it's safe to assume God has something WAY worse in store for satan than He did for any man.

---By the way I'm sure that there is nowhere in the bible that reference is actually made to satan. You've got the sneaky snake and a jerk of an angel, but satan? Surely he provides waaay to many hideous contradictions and problems for you to believe in his existence?---

A biblegateway.com search for the keyword "satan" finds 49 different results, so yeah, there is a satan in the bible.

---With the horns and everything?---

His appearance is, as far as I know, not alluded to in the Bible. The "red horned guy with a pitchfork" was an artist's rendition that got out of hand.