So the divorce that I thought was going to be uncontested...
- Thread starter atlantadawg
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logicallefty
Moderator
I am not an attorney but I have been through many legal matters in my own life. Posted about some of them here on SS in the past:
Here are some considerations:
- Communicate with the ex via Email and maybe text. No phone calls or meetings, so everything is in writing.
- Use Email to negotiate compromises on as much as possible. Email back and fourth 500 times if you have to. It will be worth it.
- Never ever ever get hostile or emotional in your Emails. Don't use ALL CAPS in words. Don't say even one swear word. If she gets pi$$y, tell her you will Email her the next day when she is in a better frame of mind to deal with you on a professional manor. Write each Email in business format, addressing her by first name everytime (or even Mrs. XXX), and thanking her after every email. And don't make the Emails too long. Keep each one short, sweet, and focused on one general topic.
- Gather as many documents as you can get your hands on, including your Emails and her medical records if you can.. Remember, if it "isn't in writing" it's as good as "isn't at all"
- Decide if you want to represent yourself or get an attorney.
Attorneys can be great, I just hired one a few months ago who did wonderful for me.
But, there ARE advantages to going at it alone (pro se), if you know what you are doing
(reference this, post #22 by me http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2208035)
I discuss some of the CONS to having an attorney that most people in the US (other than dasein who is an attorney) don't have the b@lls to talk about in America.. "We" think we have to have an attorney to tell us that murder is a crime because murdering someone is "against the law" and the word law scares people.
- If you hire an attorney, you must provide the attorney with all the documents you have and tell him or her what you want them to do for you. Save them as much time as you can. People may snark "I pay them why should I do THEIR work for them". If you have the money to pay an attorney $100.00 to write a letter that you could write yourself in 25 minutes, go for it.. And pay $25000.00 in the end instead of $1500.00. People don't think about this. Do as much as you an on your own, but keep your attorney advised on what you are doing.. Ask questions when you get stuck.
- If you do go at it totally alone (pro se), be prepared for it to be a second job. (where you are paying yourself $200.00+/hr)
Good luck Sir!
Here are some considerations:
- Communicate with the ex via Email and maybe text. No phone calls or meetings, so everything is in writing.
- Use Email to negotiate compromises on as much as possible. Email back and fourth 500 times if you have to. It will be worth it.
- Never ever ever get hostile or emotional in your Emails. Don't use ALL CAPS in words. Don't say even one swear word. If she gets pi$$y, tell her you will Email her the next day when she is in a better frame of mind to deal with you on a professional manor. Write each Email in business format, addressing her by first name everytime (or even Mrs. XXX), and thanking her after every email. And don't make the Emails too long. Keep each one short, sweet, and focused on one general topic.
- Gather as many documents as you can get your hands on, including your Emails and her medical records if you can.. Remember, if it "isn't in writing" it's as good as "isn't at all"
- Decide if you want to represent yourself or get an attorney.
Attorneys can be great, I just hired one a few months ago who did wonderful for me.
But, there ARE advantages to going at it alone (pro se), if you know what you are doing
(reference this, post #22 by me http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2208035)
I discuss some of the CONS to having an attorney that most people in the US (other than dasein who is an attorney) don't have the b@lls to talk about in America.. "We" think we have to have an attorney to tell us that murder is a crime because murdering someone is "against the law" and the word law scares people.
- If you hire an attorney, you must provide the attorney with all the documents you have and tell him or her what you want them to do for you. Save them as much time as you can. People may snark "I pay them why should I do THEIR work for them". If you have the money to pay an attorney $100.00 to write a letter that you could write yourself in 25 minutes, go for it.. And pay $25000.00 in the end instead of $1500.00. People don't think about this. Do as much as you an on your own, but keep your attorney advised on what you are doing.. Ask questions when you get stuck.
- If you do go at it totally alone (pro se), be prepared for it to be a second job. (where you are paying yourself $200.00+/hr)
Good luck Sir!
Eco-J
Don Juan
Sorry to hear about this nonsense, but thought I should chime in as someone with relatively recent experience in this.
I'm glad to hear you retained a lawyer. They know more than a layperson about their area of expertise - I'm a lawyer, but not a divorce lawyer, and my lawyer's insights were very important. More importantly, I don't care how emotionally detached you feel now from the situation, there is no way to remain emotionally detached throughout the whole process. She's your ex, she's fvcking with you, you are going to get pissed - you need a lawyer who has no emotional investment in this.
And a lot of the above remarks reflect that pissed attitude - go for the jugular, etc. But during the negotiations you should remain calm and "fair": "listen all I want is an even split and for us to be able to peacefully work together in raising our daughter in the future. My lawyer says since you make more, I could get child support and we could fight for primary custody, but let's just do 50/50." If you wind up in court, obviously you argue to the judge that you deserve more.
But you don't want to go to court. It's super expensive to have a big fight with the ex. Hopefully your lawyer will discourage it, but there are some who will indulge their client's desire to fight and just keep billing you for the extra work. Plus the reality is that the family courts do still lean towards the woman - less than they used to, but there's still a bias towards the woman as the primary caretaker. Fighting with the ex can be cathartic and it's fun to vent, but using that money to go on vacation, buy a new car, do whatever is actually more fun (and healthier).
To the extent possible, get 50% custody of your daughter now if you don't already (I did skim some of the above). Facts on the ground matter and a court will lean towards keeping custody arrangements the same.
And don't get caught up in fake alpha / beta sh!t. The alpha thing is to know what you want and hold the line there, while being pleasant, placating, accommodating, etc. to get there. This is a woman you are going to have to deal with on a weekly (if not near daily) basis - your goal is to have a peaceful relationship with her so she fades into the background. There are going to be parts of the settlement that you don't like and that she doesn't like - better to compromise a little now, then have to deal with aggressive bullsh!t for years.
Good luck.
Eco-J
Divorced, 3 kids, 50% custody, good buyout of house, generally amicable and cooperative relationship with the ex (and looking forward to the day 10 years from now when I don't need to!), and for the most part - with some major slips - lived out the above advice.
I'm glad to hear you retained a lawyer. They know more than a layperson about their area of expertise - I'm a lawyer, but not a divorce lawyer, and my lawyer's insights were very important. More importantly, I don't care how emotionally detached you feel now from the situation, there is no way to remain emotionally detached throughout the whole process. She's your ex, she's fvcking with you, you are going to get pissed - you need a lawyer who has no emotional investment in this.
And a lot of the above remarks reflect that pissed attitude - go for the jugular, etc. But during the negotiations you should remain calm and "fair": "listen all I want is an even split and for us to be able to peacefully work together in raising our daughter in the future. My lawyer says since you make more, I could get child support and we could fight for primary custody, but let's just do 50/50." If you wind up in court, obviously you argue to the judge that you deserve more.
But you don't want to go to court. It's super expensive to have a big fight with the ex. Hopefully your lawyer will discourage it, but there are some who will indulge their client's desire to fight and just keep billing you for the extra work. Plus the reality is that the family courts do still lean towards the woman - less than they used to, but there's still a bias towards the woman as the primary caretaker. Fighting with the ex can be cathartic and it's fun to vent, but using that money to go on vacation, buy a new car, do whatever is actually more fun (and healthier).
To the extent possible, get 50% custody of your daughter now if you don't already (I did skim some of the above). Facts on the ground matter and a court will lean towards keeping custody arrangements the same.
And don't get caught up in fake alpha / beta sh!t. The alpha thing is to know what you want and hold the line there, while being pleasant, placating, accommodating, etc. to get there. This is a woman you are going to have to deal with on a weekly (if not near daily) basis - your goal is to have a peaceful relationship with her so she fades into the background. There are going to be parts of the settlement that you don't like and that she doesn't like - better to compromise a little now, then have to deal with aggressive bullsh!t for years.
Good luck.
Eco-J
Divorced, 3 kids, 50% custody, good buyout of house, generally amicable and cooperative relationship with the ex (and looking forward to the day 10 years from now when I don't need to!), and for the most part - with some major slips - lived out the above advice.
atlantadawg
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Update to the update:
Ok, so finally saw the 'revisions' today. Still laughable and not workable. Have agreed with my attorney that we need to come out strong with our proposal. Will be asking for primary custody, alimony, child support, half her retirement, half of shared property, equitable buy out on primary residence and lakehouse, etc.
I have mountains of evidence (extensive journals of her irresponsible behavior, tons of photographic evidence, crazy texts galore, tons of evidence from FB that proves infidelity beyond a reasonable doubt, etc.) to support my position and what we'll be asking for.
I know I'm in the right and am operating with my daughter's best interests at heart, but the only thing that sucks about this is the open ended nature of it; have no clue as to when this will be wrapped up. I would have to figure that her attorney, unless she's a complete fvcking moron, is going to see the obvious losing hand she has and push crazy soon to be ex to settle. Can't say I'm too thrilled at the prospect of a long protracted battle, but I know she isn't either, because she's all jazzed to marry her new boyfriend. Lol across the board at that one, but that guy's another story, and the least of my worries. In fact, his attention whoring on FB has made my job a whole lot easier.
So that's where we are; will have a response ready to file by Monday. Much as I hate to say it and don't want it, it's game on.
Ok, so finally saw the 'revisions' today. Still laughable and not workable. Have agreed with my attorney that we need to come out strong with our proposal. Will be asking for primary custody, alimony, child support, half her retirement, half of shared property, equitable buy out on primary residence and lakehouse, etc.
I have mountains of evidence (extensive journals of her irresponsible behavior, tons of photographic evidence, crazy texts galore, tons of evidence from FB that proves infidelity beyond a reasonable doubt, etc.) to support my position and what we'll be asking for.
I know I'm in the right and am operating with my daughter's best interests at heart, but the only thing that sucks about this is the open ended nature of it; have no clue as to when this will be wrapped up. I would have to figure that her attorney, unless she's a complete fvcking moron, is going to see the obvious losing hand she has and push crazy soon to be ex to settle. Can't say I'm too thrilled at the prospect of a long protracted battle, but I know she isn't either, because she's all jazzed to marry her new boyfriend. Lol across the board at that one, but that guy's another story, and the least of my worries. In fact, his attention whoring on FB has made my job a whole lot easier.
So that's where we are; will have a response ready to file by Monday. Much as I hate to say it and don't want it, it's game on.
Bible_Belt
Master Don Juan
I have mountains of evidence (extensive journals of her irresponsible behavior, tons of photographic evidence, crazy texts galore, tons of evidence from FB that proves infidelity beyond a reasonable doubt, etc.) to support my position and what we'll be asking for.
I was going to tell you that you're wasting your time. But from what I read about Georgia, if adultery was the cause of the divorce and you can prove it, then that would bar her from receiving alimony. It will not affect child custody unless it's something extreme that results in neglecting the child. And it will not affect property division.
That's an unusual law, as far as I know. Normally adultery is completely irrelevant in every way. You're still probably wasting your time. She's not going to get alimony anyway if she has a good job.
I was going to tell you that you're wasting your time. But from what I read about Georgia, if adultery was the cause of the divorce and you can prove it, then that would bar her from receiving alimony. It will not affect child custody unless it's something extreme that results in neglecting the child. And it will not affect property division.
That's an unusual law, as far as I know. Normally adultery is completely irrelevant in every way. You're still probably wasting your time. She's not going to get alimony anyway if she has a good job.
Once a divorce is in the works, your spouse becomes an opposing party. Any information you give her will be used to f*ck you over.atlantadawg said:
For some reason it's harder for men to make the mental switch from ally to enemy. Women do it rather quickly. Or perhaps they start earlier?
atlantadawg
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My attorney has said that it is absolutely relevant in that it relates to her competency as a parent, lifestyle choices, etc., which will ultimately have a pretty significant bearing on custody and child support.Bible_Belt said:
The infidelity, too, is just a tiny bit of the evidence: drunkenness, gambling, ridiculous spending (Over $800 just on Chanel perfume after we separated and she was claiming to be broke! You can't make this sheet up...), neglect of daughter on a number of levels, neglecting basic upkeep of the household, etc. It's a god damn gold mine worth of stuff I have on her...
Bible_Belt
Master Don Juan
Georgia has some archaic and unusual laws regarding divorce. They have one "no fault" ground and several fault grounds, one of which is adultery.
Here's a relevant quote from a Georgia Family Lawyer
http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/divorce-filing-on-fault-ground-of-adultery--georgi-705223.html
Glen Edward Ashman
Divorce / Separation Lawyer - East Point, GA
"Attempting to use a fault ground vastly complicates a divorce. Although fault grounds exist, and fault is common in divorces, probably 99%+ of divorces in this state are granted on a no fault round. With a no fault divorce you have no proof issues. Adultery is only a grounds if you prove it in court, did not condone it, and if it actually causes the separation. Things you say or do may affect whether adultery is a viable ground or not."
I think your attorney is just telling you what you want to hear so he or she can take as much of your money as possible. The reason 99+% of Georgia divorces are no fault is that most people don't have tens of thousand of dollars to waste on lawyers. But you, by comparison, do. That makes you a big fish, a big score, one giant walking dollar sign waiting to be conned out of your money. It's not easy running a family law practice. Most clients don't have any money. So it's good business to milk as much as possible out of the ones who do.
Here's a relevant quote from a Georgia Family Lawyer
http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/divorce-filing-on-fault-ground-of-adultery--georgi-705223.html
Glen Edward Ashman
Divorce / Separation Lawyer - East Point, GA
"Attempting to use a fault ground vastly complicates a divorce. Although fault grounds exist, and fault is common in divorces, probably 99%+ of divorces in this state are granted on a no fault round. With a no fault divorce you have no proof issues. Adultery is only a grounds if you prove it in court, did not condone it, and if it actually causes the separation. Things you say or do may affect whether adultery is a viable ground or not."
I think your attorney is just telling you what you want to hear so he or she can take as much of your money as possible. The reason 99+% of Georgia divorces are no fault is that most people don't have tens of thousand of dollars to waste on lawyers. But you, by comparison, do. That makes you a big fish, a big score, one giant walking dollar sign waiting to be conned out of your money. It's not easy running a family law practice. Most clients don't have any money. So it's good business to milk as much as possible out of the ones who do.
sodbuster
Master Don Juan
One thing to consider..... drag this damn thing out as long as possible.... DON'T spend money on your lawyer, just tell him to make it go slow. She's going to HAVE to compromise in order to marry her NEW guy...... when she get's impatient, you win.
My ex told me she hated the feeling of being "not in control" during her earlier Divorce..... so I just had my Lawyer take 2 weeks to reply to letters, etc. and drug it out for 9 months
My ex told me she hated the feeling of being "not in control" during her earlier Divorce..... so I just had my Lawyer take 2 weeks to reply to letters, etc. and drug it out for 9 months
YawataNoKami
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I do not know if posting this is against the rules, if so please delete this post.
Read it , make your own.
http://forum.mensdivorce.com//viewtopic.php?t=13374
Read it , make your own.
http://forum.mensdivorce.com//viewtopic.php?t=13374
Tenacity
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I wonder why all of the pro-marriage guys on this Forum get quiet in threads like this? I mean you never see them posting for some reason lol.
I mean, seriously, just why do guys put themselves through this dumb shyt? Why do you think YOUR situation is going to be different than the vast majority of marriages? Why do you think YOUR woman is different than the vast majority of women?
The whole concept of Marriage doesn't even mean what it used to mean. I thought Marriage was a Christian based concept where two fleshes will merge together as one flesh? AND that it was based on a Man and Woman doing this? AND finally, that the woman would be "submitting" to the man as the man submits to God?
- Women's liberation has it to where women no longer submit to a Man anymore, matter of fact, too many Men end up submitting to the Women in a way throughout the marriage. So is that even a traditional marriage? Does that even line up with the original concept?
- Then you got 2 Guys, or 2 Girls, or more than 2 people getting into one marriage contract today, does that line up with the original concept?
- Then with the entire concept of two fleshes merging together, how does something like that separate? How do you MERGE together and then become separate again?
Guys can't you see the entire damn concept of Marriage is a Scam? It's a Business Industry setup by the Government as well as the Legal Industry to collect tax revenue and legal fees. You are taking money OUT of your children's trust fund to fund the trust fund of the children of the Judge or the Divorce Attorney. The business side of it uses social constructs like RELIGION, Hallmark and societal conditioning to get you to SIGN UP for the bullshyt knowing that within 5-10 years you will become their "newest client".
Can't you guys see this man? I mean listen, I know people rant about how certain things are "scams" all day long, such as people ranting about how College is a Scam. But we all know College is what you make of it, including the majors you choose, the grants you get, etc., that make College either a positive ROI or a negative ROI.
But you can't possibly explain to me ANY positive ROI with Marriage. You can't, and you know you can't. The only reason you sign up for the shyt is due to societal conditioning, that same conditioning that's being used to manipulate you into entering the contract to become a Divorce Attorney's "newest customer" in a couple of years.
I mean, seriously, just why do guys put themselves through this dumb shyt? Why do you think YOUR situation is going to be different than the vast majority of marriages? Why do you think YOUR woman is different than the vast majority of women?
The whole concept of Marriage doesn't even mean what it used to mean. I thought Marriage was a Christian based concept where two fleshes will merge together as one flesh? AND that it was based on a Man and Woman doing this? AND finally, that the woman would be "submitting" to the man as the man submits to God?
- Women's liberation has it to where women no longer submit to a Man anymore, matter of fact, too many Men end up submitting to the Women in a way throughout the marriage. So is that even a traditional marriage? Does that even line up with the original concept?
- Then you got 2 Guys, or 2 Girls, or more than 2 people getting into one marriage contract today, does that line up with the original concept?
- Then with the entire concept of two fleshes merging together, how does something like that separate? How do you MERGE together and then become separate again?
Guys can't you see the entire damn concept of Marriage is a Scam? It's a Business Industry setup by the Government as well as the Legal Industry to collect tax revenue and legal fees. You are taking money OUT of your children's trust fund to fund the trust fund of the children of the Judge or the Divorce Attorney. The business side of it uses social constructs like RELIGION, Hallmark and societal conditioning to get you to SIGN UP for the bullshyt knowing that within 5-10 years you will become their "newest client".
Can't you guys see this man? I mean listen, I know people rant about how certain things are "scams" all day long, such as people ranting about how College is a Scam. But we all know College is what you make of it, including the majors you choose, the grants you get, etc., that make College either a positive ROI or a negative ROI.
But you can't possibly explain to me ANY positive ROI with Marriage. You can't, and you know you can't. The only reason you sign up for the shyt is due to societal conditioning, that same conditioning that's being used to manipulate you into entering the contract to become a Divorce Attorney's "newest customer" in a couple of years.
Is there pro marriage guys on this forum?Tenacity said:
Maybe epimanes the marriage builder guy (is that his handle? sorry if its not).
Guys here are pro-
being informed
Screening
protecting yourself
Ten don't go to far down the bitterness trail, it will eat you up and destroy you inside, not to mention fcuk up your outlook.
Tenacity
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It's not bitterness though and you can't screen a "quality chick," I'm sorry you can't. I'm not totally going into a MGTOW level 4 or anything, I'm a level 2, but you guys can't possibly tell me any POSITIVE ROI with a Marriage contract for a man. If there are, please show me?hithard said:
All of the money wasted on Attorneys, wasted spent on alimony, and wasted spent in upfront divorce settlements, could be used to fund the next great business investment. It could be used to feed the homeless. It could be used for something PRODUCTIVE to society instead of this Big Business Marriage Industry.
atlantadawg
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Bible_Belt said:
I'm well aware of all that and, to clarify, am not seeking a Fault divorce due to the infidelity. We're still going No Fault all the way, due to the procedural complications mentioned above. The infidelity stuff is, again, more about how that fits into the larger body of evidence that shows pretty clearly that she is a pretty sh*tty parent, as it relates to my seeking primary custody, child support, etc.
I am well aware of some attorney's tendency to milk a situation for all it's worth, and we have had several very transparent conversations about $. I just spent sh*tloads of $ on the lakehouse renovation, then sh*tloads more when I moved out (I took only 3 small pieces of furniture when I split; nothing else.), then sh*tloads more through the Holidays, so I told her pretty explicitly that I don't have $20 - 30 k liquid to throw at this right now. She knows the deal and is pretty ethical, as best I can tell (I am generally a very good judge of character and she passes that test.). She advised me, because of what I have to spend, to not, for example, go for sole custody, and has promised to provide me exact, transparent billing as to exactly to the $ where we are on the retainer. I would really like to get out of this thing for less than $10k, but we're asking for attorney's fees too, so fvck it, may end up getting reimbursed for it all eventually.
This is where we disagree. Not only can you screen, you can also polish behavior. Sorry but your reality isn't mine in this instance.Tenacity said:
Yeah I'm not personally into marriage (I get bored too quickly) but thats not to say every marriage is doomed to failure.
No, being informed and walking into things eyes wide open make smarter decisions. Closed thinking and rejecting something because you don't know how to make it work brings in bitterness.
I'm not telling you to get married, hell I wouldn't and I don't advocate that people should. That doesn't mean that there should be some kind of rule for everyone to not get married though. People need to be able to play the marriage game successfully and will need advice. Its not anyones job to rag them out about their choices if they go about it the right way.
Just because you don't want it doesn't mean it isn't an option for someone else. You took all the horror stories all the negatives and that was it when you weighed your decision up. Don't BS me that you went out with an open mind to learn the in's and outs of relationships through practice(and not just being in a relationship, learning from it positive and negative).Danger said:
You are splitting hairs with the above.
To be clear, you think no one should be married?
Or you don't want to get married?
Because if its the second one what the fcuk are we arguing for. I'm saying people should be free to choose what the want and be given the best odds at making it work with as much info as possible. You made your choice.
Bull$hit if you knew how to make it work you wouldn't be so closed minded and shutting the marriage option down.
Once again I am not pro marriage but you guys are Fcuking stuck. Arcing up over this, like entertaining the idea that someone might like to get married is akin to stepping on puppies heads shows a few mental roadblocks.
Maybe I'm not articulating my point across well enough or maybe this MGTOW crap is infecting too many minds here at the moment.
Either way I'm out again and will check back in a few months.
Danger & Ten you are both top guys and I both enjoy and have learnt from your posts. You have both given me a lot to think about in the current world of DJing.
Cheers
YawataNoKami
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Pre-nups are useless
atlantadawg
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Why do you say that?YawataNoKami said:
Based on my research, it certainly seems to be the only viable route should I be stupid enough to go down this road again...
Bible_Belt
Master Don Juan
Prenups have value for someone like yourself, who would be going into the marriage with assets. That's about all a pre-nup can do, is attempt to set aside the assets you bring into the marriage. For a typical broke person, they are a waste of time.
Plus, a pre-nup is a contract, and a contract is only as good as the lawyer who wrote it. A better lawyer is going to be able to find holes in it.
So prenups are not a waste of time for everybody, but they are by no means the magic fix-all solution that guys tend to think they are.
Plus, a pre-nup is a contract, and a contract is only as good as the lawyer who wrote it. A better lawyer is going to be able to find holes in it.
So prenups are not a waste of time for everybody, but they are by no means the magic fix-all solution that guys tend to think they are.