She threw up LMR, and I failed miserably. What should I learn from this?

[MascaraSnake]

This was date 2. We met at an open mic, and went barhopping...went great, rapport continued increasing, and we ended up making out before long. Fantastic date on every possible level.

Soon enough, it was closing time and we both walked back to my place. (She stayed over, because she "didn't feel safe" walking the extra half a mile home. Uh-huh.) She didn't want to watch anything or listen to anything, so I soon led her by the hand into my bedroom. when I tried to take her shirt off, that's when the walls came up.

She was pissed. She thought - despite half of our conversation being sexual - that I was "different" and wouldn't immediately try to do her, and she had had no agenda coming over to my place and sleeping with me in my bed. (Really?)

Instead of leaving in a huff and sleeping on the couch, I backpedaled and got her out of her mood by having an hourlong conversation about past relationships and her trust issues. (At this point, since I like her, the whole thing had become damage control.)

We kissed a little more and slept together the whole night without sex. (I did try to move forward throughout the night, but any time my hand went north or south, she'd shake me away and seductively laugh. I wasn't getting any further without force, and I'm not skilled enough to try that yet. She kept saying "wow, you're like a 15 year-old".)

We parted on positive terms in the morning, and she's still texting me. so, a few questions:

1. What did I mess up, and how badly?
2. Should I date her again, or should I next her? She did win this push-and-pull here, and I don't like it when a woman's made me look like a wimpy little fifi-boy.

 

[Dusoa]

1. I'm sure a bunch of guys are gonna jump on this and tell you how you should've done this or that, but honestly I think you did what you could. She obviously likes you or she wouldn't have come back to your place at all. Now maayyybbee the only thing you could've done in terms of push-pull is to tell her you'd walk her back home when she tried to use that as an excuse to stay over, just to see how she would've reacted, but I don't think it would've made a huge difference. You tried to initiate and she wasn't having it YET. I assure you though, if the interest wasn't there, or she was really put off, she would've left immediately and/or wouldn't have texted you again. She knows your intentions now, and maybe when she's ready things will be different.

2. That's really up to you. From the sound of things you had a fantastic time with her. Just because someone wouldn't have sex with me at the end of a great second date, but everything else went well I definitely wouldn't see that as a grounds to next her, but thats just my opinion. You'll probably get several others that are the complete opposite. So, it really depends on how much you enjoy her company and if you want to keep trying to see where it goes, or if you think she's just a tease.

 

[MascaraSnake]

it really depends on how much you enjoy her company and if you want to keep trying to see where it goes, or if you think she's just a tease.

The reason I'm asking is because...well...as I get better at this, the quality of the women I date goes up. Low quality women put out, and for a while that was all I knew.

Higher quality women are a lot more resistant. This is uncharted territory, and I want to know what will make me continue improving.

 

[Dusoa]

The reason I'm asking is because...well...as I get better at this, the quality of the women I date goes up. Low quality women put out, and for a while that was all I knew.

Higher quality women are a lot more resistant. This is uncharted territory, and I want to know what will make me continue improving.

Well, as you can see I'm new to these forums, but I'm kind of doing things in the opposite direction of you. I've always gone for long term relationships with what most would consider higher quality women, and now find myself wanting to attempt more casual situations while I'm still young enough to do so without baggage.

I do have some experience with this though, and I can tell you I dated a girl once for 5 months before we had slept together, and all my friends at the time told me I was crazy for sticking it out, but we ended up in what I would say is to this day still my best relationship, that lasted nearly 3 years. It just depends what you want out of it. This forum from what I can tell is primarily about how to move quick and efficiently, and in many ways the advice on here is very solid and true, but there is a whole other side of dating and having long term relationships that can be really fulfilling and enjoyable if you're up for all that comes along with that.

 

[DonJuanabe]

What she wanted was for you to tease her, play with her, do some push-pull. When she says "I thought you were different and wouldn't try to immediately do me" you respond in a light-hearted tone "What are you talking about - I'm a take it slow kind of guy and was practically pushing you off me. You should learn some restraint!" Then she would of course deny that she was being aggressive to which you could reply "I'm not sure I can trust you in my bed all night - I think I should walk you home to make sure you get there safely and so that I can sleep safely too!" The point is to kind of make fun of the situation and keep deflecting what she says back at her. If in fact you end up walking her home you've taken control of the situation and have ended the night on your terms not hers. That's her ultimate game -- to see whether she can control the situation. You take her home - you control. If she decides to stay rather than be walked home then you will be f*cking her that night.

She is trying to decide how she views you -- as someone who is in charge or someone with whom she is in charge. If it is clear in her mind that you are in charge sex will be plentiful. If it is unclear then she won't have as much respect for you as she wants to have and sex/relationship will be more difficult.

 

[Zarky]

I would "one and done" her. That is, dump her. She had her one shot, she blew it, now she's done.

IMHO her behavior is just a complete lack of respect. Wastes your time by coming over and giving you sexual signals and then, when you do what's natural for you as a man, she says you're "acting like a 15 year old?" WTF

She sees you as a mark, nothing more. Unless you two are 21 or something, she's given it up to guys far faster than that.

Any time a girl gives me LMR, I ask myself: what did I do a looong time ago to make her think that kind of behavior was ok? Whatever mistake(s) you made happened long before you got back to your place.

And then after she treats you like sh*t, you sit there and listen to her yap about prior relationships for an hour? Are you kidding me?

Here's a phrase to learn, and practice, and use when the time is right:

"Get the f*ck out."

Don't you guys ever get pissed when a woman treats you like dirt anymore? I don't understand.

She thought - despite half of our conversation being sexual - that I was "different" and wouldn't immediately try to do her

This is entirely your fault. Women should never think you're "different." She should think you're a horndog just like all the other guys she's spread her legs for.

 

[Smell The Glove]

Instead of leaving in a huff and sleeping on the couch

Escalation probably wasn't fluid up to the point you got her to your bed.

Worst case scenario you sleep in your bed and tell her she's welcome to sleep on the couch. Though probably better off to have walked her home and be done with her for the night.

Don't give a girl YOUR bed and sleep on the couch, you're not some husband in the dog house.

 

[MascaraSnake]

it seems like as a girl gets hotter, she gets fussier and *far* harder to deal with.

oh, well. welcome to being a man.

 

[Alvafe]

hmm i'm curious about something since you guys are saying what she can control, so if I go for a date with a girl and pretty much keep it in my territory (I go get her since it half way to the party with my firends and then take her back to her house because it halfway to my), you guys consider doing that right or not matter much?

 

[JoeMarron]

You rewarded bad behavior by having an hour long therapy session with her and letting her sleep in your bed. Next time either kick her out (don't act angry or frustrated) or follow the advice on that borderline rape thread lol. If I can find it I'll post the link.

 

[floydb25]

I'm just wondering where you get the impression that this is a "high quality" girl. You went bar-hopping (!), she got pissed, started acting like a demanding ****, has trust issues (bet your ass those guys humped and dumped her, and she was all for it), teased you and got off on the control she connived you into, made a sarcastic, disrespectful, belittling comment (wow, you're like a 15 year old)...

Where's the high quality part? All I see is a ****-tease ***** with issues who likes to bully weak men (probably because she was bullied herself). Now you're wondering what YOU did wrong... that's how bullies operate. She currently has all the control, and wants to keep it that way. Bet on it.

What you did wrong was acting submissive and giving in to her every whim; even going out of your way to listen to her complain. Which she knows full well of.

I suspect a controlling ***** meets decent guy situation brewing here. All of her exes were probably *******s - like her. She can't bully them, of course - only you.

 

[muscleman]

I think you could have pushed more and gotten it. All is not lost, but next date is - hands down - movie/drink night at your place. It's cool, I've been there before. There are ways around it and I have some stuff I wrote that might help you.

First, I had a similar experience earlier this year and just pushed through. Fvck it.

Second, it's possible you didn't properly escalate foreplay. Here's a guide for you.

Third, there are ways to overcome ASD/LMR. Here's another guide for you.

Hope this helps ...

 

[MascaraSnake]

Gentlemen...we have an update, and it's not one I was expecting. On the way to the gym, she texted me a compound message.

HB: I'm trying really hard to forgive what happened, but I don't like feeling violated or pressured into things. I don't like how aggressive you were with me, and I just feel stupid about the whole situation. I appreciate the talk we had, but you left a bad first impression and now I don't trust you. I've been trying really, really hard to respect myself again, and it's taken a while.

note: if she thinks Monday night was aggressive, then she's not as experienced as she let on. It's also now clear that she has a past she didn't tell me about...

and then the second, sent about ten minutes later (this really blew my mind):

HB: I have spent plenty of nights with guys in the same bed, and they have respected my wishes and kept their hands off of me.

note: I still can't believe she sent me that.

I texted her a short message back:

mascarasnake: Expect a call tonight. I'm not texting a response to this.
HB: I'm not sure I want to talk to you.

so, after my gym session and groceries, I did just that. surprise, surprise - she didn't pick up. (I left a very to-the-point message - this is paraphrased.)

"I see no reason to beat around the bush. The date was fantastic, we'd been making out like hell, and I find you devastatingly attractive. Do you think I can then lie next to you all night, in my bed, and not lie a hand on you? Are we 19?

I'm sorry you felt uncomfortable, even though I have no clue why you did - and I'm certainly not going to apologize for trying to get with you. If that makes me a pig, then I guess I'm a pig. Peace."

 

[Smell The Glove]

This girl has major issues, you're better off without her.

 

[MascaraSnake]

This girl has major issues, you're better off without her.

jesus. tell me about it.

I was open to giving her a second chance until I got the text messages tonight. She needs a straitjacket, and I thought my f-buddy was nuts...

 

[floydb25]

You might not have expected it, but I did. Then again, I spent a lot of time around *******s and *****es and crazies. She's turning everything around on you, making you seem like the bad guy, comparing you negatively to other guys, trying to get YOU to feel guilty and make it up to her and contact her... Everything is your fault - even though you didn't do ****, and she teased you all along the way, and got off on the control she acquired.

She's an abuser who plays the role of the victim... this is all classic stuff. It's also why she goes bar-hopping and causes drama... She's crazy.

Don't get caught up in her BS.

 

[BeDJ]

What she wanted was for you to tease her, play with her, do some push-pull. When she says "I thought you were different and wouldn't try to immediately do me" you respond in a light-hearted tone "What are you talking about - I'm a take it slow kind of guy and was practically pushing you off me. You should learn some restraint!" Then she would of course deny that she was being aggressive to which you could reply "I'm not sure I can trust you in my bed all night - I think I should walk you home to make sure you get there safely and so that I can sleep safely too!" The point is to kind of make fun of the situation and keep deflecting what she says back at her. If in fact you end up walking her home you've taken control of the situation and have ended the night on your terms not hers. That's her ultimate game -- to see whether she can control the situation. You take her home - you control. If she decides to stay rather than be walked home then you will be f*cking her that night.

She is trying to decide how she views you -- as someone who is in charge or someone with whom she is in charge. If it is clear in her mind that you are in charge sex will be plentiful. If it is unclear then she won't have as much respect for you as she wants to have and sex/relationship will be more difficult.

Push/Pull is the most powerful escalation move I have ever witnessed.

When a woman is back at your place, she wants to fvck you in the LEAST sl*ttiest way possible. Most guys won't believe their luck that this chick is in their bedrooom, that's where they screw up. You STILL need to give her a reason to fvck you, most think they have reached the finish line already (although sometimes it can happen.) You need to get her h_rny enough so that she MUST fvck you.

Kiss her
Retreat
Make out
Retreat
Feel her body
Retreat
Squeeze her
Retreat
Grope her
...
Charmander until she's Rhyhorny
Slowpoke her until she'll Raichu
Beedrill her until she Squirtle

Sorry, what were we talking about?

 

[MascaraSnake]

You might not have expected it, but I did. Then again, I spent a lot of time around *******s and *****es and crazies. She's turning everything around on you, making you seem like the bad guy, comparing you negatively to other guys, trying to get YOU to feel guilty and make it up to her and contact her... Everything is your fault - even though you didn't do ****, and she teased you all along the way, and got off on the control she acquired.

She's an abuser who plays the role of the victim... this is all classic stuff. It's also why she goes bar-hopping and causes drama... She's crazy.

Don't get caught up in her BS.

Do you think I at least ended this correctly?

at this point, all I want is to cancel Monday night out and go onto the next chick...

EDIT: screw it...I feel like mentioning this, because it just makes the whole thing more outrageous. The woman's 29. Who conducts themselves like this at 29?

 

[Zarky]

You might not have expected it, but I did.

I gotta say I'm not at all surprised either. The OP really needs more experience with women. She's playing the OP like a fiddle.

I don't even know where to begin. OP, you're out of your league with this one. And the message to her about how "devastatingly attractive" she is or whatever. That was truly awful.

She's trying to get you to apologize, say it'll never happen again, and then after you beg enough she'll "forgive" you and you won't be getting any poon from this one until you've spent 6 months and $5000 on her.

Like I said previously, you made your mistake long ago.

Who conducts themselves like this at 29?

A sl*t who sees a chump like you and licks her lips in anticipation of the mindf*cking she can give you. How old are you, OP? I'm guessing under 25?

TL;DR... this chick has spent the last decade or so slutting it up with guys who were bright enough to use her and dump her. Now wants to find a "nice guy" sucker like you to control fo' evah and evah.

EDIT:

I really can't stop writing about this. This is the stuff Heartiste/Roissy (and others) have been warning about for years: The chick who's ridden the c*ck carousel until she hit the wall and is now looking for a beta. It's really a classic tale and you're living it OP. Though you're the designated beta, so it's nothing to be really proud of.

The question you should be asking yourself is: What vibes did I give off to make her think I'm a beta?

 

[MascaraSnake]

zarky, I'm angry at you and happy you're telling me this at the same time.

This whole situation really screwed with my head, and I'm determined to improve my situation *now*. I am better than this, and I am not going to continue to be bested by women like this.

The OP really needs more experience with women. She's playing the OP like a fiddle.

I don't even know where to begin. OP, you're out of your league with this one. And the message to her about how "devastatingly attractive" she is or whatever. That was truly awful.

absolutely right on the first point...I haven't been getting laid frequently since about a year ago, and most of those have been luck with no real game on my part.

Your second point bothers me the most, though - I actually thought that message that I left was good.

Why was it so awful? What it sounded like to me, simplified, was "Yes, I felt your sexy body up all night - I don't care that it bothered you, and I'm not ashamed. Bye." Did it come across differently to you, then?

A sl*t who sees a chump like you and licks her lips in anticipation of the mindf*cking she can give you. How old are you, OP? I'm guessing under 25?

Hubris defines me, and that was a very hard paragraph for me to read without getting angry. (I'm 25.)

The question you should be asking yourself is: What vibes did I give off to make her think I'm a beta?

No idea. It must be something I do unconsciously, and I have no idea how to alter that if I've been doing it since I was 15.