Rioting in London

Julius_Seizeher

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So supporting your own life makes you an 'elitist'? I suppose it does, since everyone seems convinced of their right for someone else to support their life, so only a small "elite" take responsibility for their lives.

But the man who does take responsibility for his life is the antithesis of elitism. I value myself so much that I do not compare myself to others and I have absolutely no desire for power or domination over others, only power and domination over my own life, which means: freedom. The lust for power over others is the hallmark of mediocrity.

Here is the truth: human beings do not exist as a "collective". One man cannot breathe for another, nor can he think for him. Man's survival is dependent on his ability to think and to act, but thought is the province of the individual mind. Any government that has ever tried to promise man a full stomach (and thus sustain his survival) has only achieved destruction and horror; the atrocities of collectivized countries provide ample evidence of this.
 

Strelok

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Julius_Seizeher said:
So supporting your own life makes you an 'elitist'? I suppose it does, since everyone seems convinced of their right for someone else to support their life, so only a small "elite" take responsibility for their lives.

But the man who does take responsibility for his life is the antithesis of elitism. I value myself so much that I do not compare myself to others and I have absolutely no desire for power or domination over others, only power and domination over my own life, which means: freedom. The lust for power over others is the hallmark of mediocrity.

Here is the truth: human beings do not exist as a "collective". One man cannot breathe for another, nor can he think for him. Man's survival is dependent on his ability to think and to act, but thought is the province of the individual mind. Any government that has ever tried to promise man a full stomach (and thus sustain his survival) has only achieved destruction and horror; the atrocities of collectivized countries provide ample evidence of this.
What you talk about only exists in the mind of those spoiled rich academics who didnt work a single day at the factory but feel they can talk for the workers or people peacocking just to show how democratic they are.

What some people including myself is saying here is that just like you dont own anything to anybody that doesnt worked for it you cannot at the same time force a certain life style to themfor your gain,I'll elaborate.

You produce shoes but they are too expensive so very few people can afford them then you pay advertisers to show 24/7 on tv that those men without your shoes are losers unworthy of respect or sex, you do the same with tv producers that force the same idea through tv programs.

After that dont complain if the majority of people who cannot afford your product yet pay the conseguences,get frustated for years then riot and rob your shops.

I made it simple but Im sure you got the point.

Live and let live works both direction.
 

Strelok

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Danger said:
Strelok,

The flaw in this point that you and others have made is that people WANT their goods to be affordable. That is how they make the profit.

Who is going to pay advertising dollars when nobody can afford the good?

The point is, they are affordable to the "average joe" provided he makes certain wise decisions.

I ask again, how many of these people who are rioting have actually worked 16 hour days in their life?

What have they sacrificed today so they could have something tomorrow?

How many have worked for what they have and thus have something to lose?

People may be born into poverty and grow up with little to nothing, but what they do with their life is up to them. It is not the fault of the "rich" that people are poor. We could give them gobs of money and what is it going to teach them? Will they sacrifice and work hard after getting it?
Im not talking about an economical point of view, Im talking about psychological violence in order to have people desiring a certain product that they wouldnt need otherwise.

Most people wouldnt need a prada bag if there werent advertisments and tv shows showing that stuff, people want that stuff because they have to own it for social status reason not for effective utility.

Its no different then diamond producers who force men to buy diamonds not for their utility but because if you dont do it, your gf's friends will make fun of her cause her bf doesnt love her enough and she will hate you therefore you have to buy some.
In this case you see how producers voluntarly altered culture and created demand to take advantage of people emotional needs.

And please guys (not referred to you Danger I know you're a serious fella) dont come and tell me a real woman could do without, a real woman needs validation and group approval just like the others,make she'll keep her mouth shut in the beginning but later...
 

Julius_Seizeher

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Strelok, no one forces you to buy anything. Except, of course, that marxist who wants to force you to buy health insurance, but obozocare will be repealed before it ever comes in force.

You dare call me an ivory-tower academic? I grew up on a farm at a one-horse town in the middle of nowhere. People who grow up on farms cannot afford themselves the lies and the distortions of you whining, mooching academics in the cities--if a farmer doesn't plant his crop, he will have no harvest, and if he has no harvest, he will starve. There is no safety net for a farmer who does not farm or a factory worker who does not show up for work. I have worked on farms, worked in factories, worked as a day laborer, I dragged myself through years of **** in order to learn what I know now and to be who I now am.

Did I sit around whining about it? Did I blame others for my plight? Did I beg for mercy? No--because, even at the worst of it, I was honest enough to know that no act of mercy could ever do anything more than sanction the reason for which I would have asked for it.

It's like Rollo sais--"Don't wish it were easier, wish you were better."

But I say, don't wish for it, DO IT. If you wish to be something better than what you are, believe in your free will and use your mind to identify the course of action by which you will mold yourself in that image. But if you have no self-esteem, if you think it's too hard and you would rather take the easy path of blaming everyone but yourself (as is the atrocious example now being set by your president), all your prophecies of victimization and privation will realize themselves--in you.
 

Strelok

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Julius_Seizeher said:
Strelok, no one forces you to buy anything. Except, of course, that marxist who wants to force you to buy health insurance, but obozocare will be repealed before it ever comes in force.

You dare call me an ivory-tower academic? I grew up on a farm at a one-horse town in the middle of nowhere. People who grow up on farms cannot afford themselves the lies and the distortions of you whining, mooching academics in the cities--if a farmer doesn't plant his crop, he will have no harvest, and if he has no harvest, he will starve. There is no safety net for a farmer who does not farm or a factory worker who does not show up for work. I have worked on farms, worked in factories, worked as a day laborer, I dragged myself through years of **** in order to learn what I know now and to be who I now am.

Did I sit around whining about it? Did I blame others for my plight? Did I beg for mercy? No--because, even at the worst of it, I was honest enough to know that no act of mercy could ever do anything more than sanction the reason for which I would have asked for it.
I said the opposite didnt call you an academic said that its only them to think the opposite of what you said.
That stuff about being obligated to feed others etc

Julius_Seizeher said:
It's like Rollo sais--"Don't wish it were easier, wish you were better."

But I say, don't wish for it, DO IT. If you wish to be something better than what you are, believe in your free will and use your mind to identify the course of action by which you will mold yourself in that image. But if you have no self-esteem, if you think it's too hard and you would rather take the easy path of blaming everyone but yourself (as is the atrocious example now being set by your president), all your prophecies of victimization and privation will realize themselves--in you.
You either quoted the wrong guy or didnt read what I said in my early posts.

About the bolded line, nobody force me to buy a good car or expensive clothes? of course nobody is pointing a rifle at me but since that "nobody" shaped the mainstream culture according to his desire I either buy that stuff or I forget to be respected or have sex.

Just read this same forum and you'll see plenty of guys calling someone a loser cause he use public transport instead of a car or suggest as a first tool to get girl to buy the right clothes (that somehow dont happen to be cheap).

Did you read my answer to danger when I talked about diamonds, well thats my point, trust me I saw with my own eyes the effects of socialism thats why I said that no one outside rich wealthy people playing the democrats can agree with that but that doesnt mean the rich people can do anything as long as its legal if it damage others.

Anyway Im fine myself (own a home a car and easily pay any bill) but that doesnt mean I dont give a fk about the pressure poor people is subjected to so I dont take into consideration their answer to frustration.
 

Quiksilver

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If social security was funded by voluntary taxation I would have no problem with it at all. I have no problem with charity and I even paid $50 to the Red Cross after the Japanese tsunami.

Nothing wrong with 'poor' people ... If they have a product/service they can offer me that I am interested in, then I will gladly exchange my money for that product/service.

If they have nothing to offer me except the promise of not bashing my head as long as I give them money for nothing, then I would rather shoot them as they climb over my fence to bash my head in, than open my wallet to them ...

Is that so callus?
 

sstype

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Remember the value of the money you hold is a factor of the market in which you can spend it, consider the following extreme example.

Option one: I give you 3 billion dollars, but you need to live in a small facility on the moon, no people, few businesses, but your are very rich in a sense.

Option two: I give you 3 million dollars, and you get to live in America, where there are lots of beautiful places to spend that money, and tons of products, and people who are also enjoying life to spend it with.

Real world example:

Would you rather make 10 million in Somalia and get to keep all of it or make the same but pay 4 million in taxes in NYC?

You can see that the amount of money is not the true indication of wealth, it is very empty if you do not have a healthy market to spend that money in with lots of healthy products in the market, and happy people to participate in your wealth.

Just food for thought for those who

1. View all forms of "taxation" and "wealth redistribution" as "theft"
2. Define a man's worth solely on how many green tickets he accumulates.......what exactly is its real worth in a vacuum?
 

Quiksilver

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sstype said:
Remember the value of the money you hold is a factor of the market in which you can spend it, consider the following extreme example.

Option one: I give you 3 billion dollars, but you need to live in a small facility on the moon, no people, few businesses, but your are very rich in a sense.

Option two: I give you 3 million dollars, and you get to live in America, where there are lots of beautiful places to spend that money, and tons of products, and people who are also enjoying life to spend it with.

Real world example:

Would you rather make 10 million in Somalia and get to keep all of it or make the same but pay 4 million in taxes in NYC?

You can see that the amount of money is not the true indication of wealth, it is very empty if you do not have a healthy market to spend that money in with lots of healthy products in the market, and happy people to participate in your wealth.

Just food for thought for those who

1. View all forms of INVOLUNTARY "taxation" and INVOLUNTARY "wealth redistribution" as "theft"
2. Define a man's worth solely on how many green tickets he accumulates.......what exactly is its real worth in a vacuum?
I believe I understand what you're saying, and it does make sense to me.

To pay a certain % of money in order to maintain a good environment in which to have/use wealth.

That is the basis of taxation, a complex issue that I have no problem with at face value.

The ONLY two issues I have with taxation:

1) Involuntary.

I will gladly pay money for certain public services that I do not want in the hands of corporations. Military, police, judiciary, utilities(water, road, other). Those things I use whether I notice my use of them or not.

It is the other forms of taxation, to pay for things such as healthcare/school/whatever, which I do not like to be involuntary.

It resulted from 2 people (a majority) deciding that their values ('free' healthcare) trumped 1 person (a minority) to the extent that forcing wealth from that minority was acceptable.

I have values which I would like people to support, but never against their will.

It is an extension of the medieval form of democracy that leads people to believe it is morally acceptable to be able to vote on everything under the sun, including: the private property, Rights, liberties, and even life of others.

This is apparently morally justified based on the code that as long as there are two (2) of you and one (1) of them, that it is 'right'.

2) Income tax.

There are many forms and methods of taxation to fund a reasonably sized government, but taxing someone based on their salary is a concept carried over from the 1910-1920s Soviet idealism.

The wealthiest people in the world do not have a large income. They have equity in corporations or wealth taken by force from past ages (royalty). By taxing income, you tax the upper-middle class hard, to subsidize the poor and the wealthiest.

It is reverse-justified now due to the burgeoning size of the public sector. Now, in order to reverse the (graduated) income tax, one must argue the morality of unplugging people from life support in public-funded hospitals and other emotive reasoning. (example scenario below)

Those realities clash when the incomes of the middle class (and thus income tax revenue) fall, and the public sector starts to flog the middle class for money in order to support these 'worthy' causes.

___

Example scenario: I am a very wealthy man, but unbeknownst to me a poor man and his lover have been stealing bread from my refrigerator and living on a forgotten corner of my property. Years on, this couple now has dependent children who rely on the theft of bread from my fridge. One day I discover what has been occurring. Is it morally acceptable for me to place a lock on my refrigerator, knowing that people may die as a result?
 

sstype

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Danger said:
sstype,

You are making the false assertation that the seized wealth has made the US prosperous. A very false premise.
How is this a false premise?

Government intervention has been a venerable American tradition since its founding.

-By using "seized wealth" in the form of taxation, in the 1800s government funded the construction of thousands of miles of canals, providing some 70 percent of all investment.

-In the last half of the nineteenth century, the federal government provided millions of acres in land grants to railroads, along with various other subsidies.

-In the early twentieth century, it subsidized electrification and the extension of telephone service into rural areas.

-In 1956, Congress passed legislation to build 41,000 miles of interstate highways in what President Dwight Eisenhower (Republican) lauded as “the greatest public works program in the history of the world.”

-In the late twentieth century, government funded the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, which gave birth to the inventions underlying the Internet as well as nanotechnolgy.

I'm not saying that the government intervention was the sole reason for our nation's prosperity, but how exactly has any of it hurt our ability to become the world's superpower?

Remember that those "green tickets" are a representation of that man's labor.
Read my last post.....would you rather work for 1 million in war-torn Somalia or pay half in taxes but live in the U.S? You're not ok with any of the fruits of your labor being "seized" to ensure a stable and safe living environment?

I do not value a person by how much money he has, so I am not sure where you are getting that. Altho money generated by a person can be a good indication of how much wealth they are giving to certain members of society.
It can be a good indication, except when its not. There are plenty of socially useless, non-productive, inefficient free-market activities which create more problems than they solve.

Are you telling me that a tobacco or fast-food company executive should be more respected/admired than a NASA Physicist? After all, one works in the private sector, creator and giver of all wealth....the other is a lazy government bureaucrat who is seizing that poor executive's wealth researching new technologies which could potentially provide free-market entrepreneurs an opportunity to develop an offshoot product/service to sell to the public. If only Mr. Marlboro could keep more of his hard earned wealth so he can have more incentive to sell more cigarettes.


I know you don't think that but its this sort of ideological rigidity which prevents an understanding that government is not the root of all of society's ills and that the free-markets cannot and will not be able to solve all of society's problems. If that were the case, Somalia and Mexico (little taxes, no safety net) would be a booming paradises and the developed world (all which have graduated income taxes and social programs for the poor) would be totalitarian third-world hellholes.

Money cannot be the sole criteria by which to judge either self-esteem or personal well-being.

Your statements do not change the fact that seizing money from someone just because they have it still amounts to theft. Giving stolen money away to people who "need" it does not make it any less of a theft. They are just rationalizations for that action. Much like claiming that we see "poor" people as subhuman.

Every one of these statements is either guilt, shaming, rationalization or a way to tell the world that you are "better people" than those of us who are so evil that we wish to keep the fruits of our labor and force others to be accountable for their own position in life.
Look man, if it bothers you so much that others are stealing your wealth why don't you just go live in Mexico? Mexico is a libertarian paradise and that portions of the country are government-free, ruled by those who have bullets and money. There are very low taxes, few regulations, and environmentalists, socialists and liberals are few and far between. There is no Obamacare, and Mexico is the home of Carlos Slim, the world's richest man, a tribute to Mexican crony capitalism. No one will ask you to spend your taxes on lazy unemployed folks or any other "socialism". It's a Darwinian wet-dream where money rules above all and the government governs solely for the rich. Every man for themselves....right?

When companies and businesses are unrestricted, the first thing any successful large company will do to ensure its survival is to influence the governing body that makes the laws which restrict business.

Then, they push through laws which prohibit competing industries from accessing valuable resources in order to keep it all for themselves. They then subsidized their products so as to make it omnipresent to the American consumer. And, from there, the interests of those industries are presented as synonymous with the well-being of the entire nation. And, that my friends, is how libertarianism had allowed for the oil industry to become so entrenched in American politics.

As nice as the system sounds, it's about as realistic in practice as nationwide Communism.

Both systems are ideals which are never, ever going to function in the real world.
 
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Strelok

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sstype said:
Not buying it....no correlation exists between the size of government and level of corruption.

http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2010/results
It does,if you need an approval from some bureaucrats to start a small activity, the same big corporation who sell the same goods can bribe that bureaucrats to slow down your process. (very simple example).

If it's the government to chose which food have to be consumed in schools instead of the school commitee, corporations can put pressure on politicians in order to make them chose the industrial food they produce. (less simple example).

If the government can decide wheter or not a sweetner is legal or illegal based only on their judment instead of toxicity and medical reserach, it could happen that aspartame and acesulfame-k are used and legal while natural stevia is not.
This for the reasons that acesulfame-k is man made and industrial(produced mostly in germany) and enrich certain corporations(who again can press on politicians) while stevia is a simple plant anyone can grow therefore doesnt enrich anyone. (illegal in most europe)
(more complex one)

Socialist countries are the most corrupted for that reason, Soviet Russia first, the difference between have a mark on your passport was the amount of money you could have paid.
 

sstype

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Danger, I'm just presenting the facts as I see them.

My belief is that capitalism (corporatism/free-markets...whatever you want to call it) has an internal contradiction that cyclically leads to crises, and that, ultimately leads to its demise....which is essentially what happened in 2008.

Companies are motivated to minimize costs, to save and stockpile cash, but this leads to less money in the hands of employees, which means they have less money to spend and flow back to companies. Wealth's natural tendency is to accumulate at the top. The top 10% now own 80% of the wealth.

Now, in the current financial crisis, consumers, in addition to having less money to spend due to the above, are also motivated to minimize costs, to save and stockpile cash, magnifying the effect of less money flowing back to companies.

At some point capitalism can self-destroy itself. That's because you can not keep on shifting income from labor to capital without not having an excess capacity and a lack of aggregate demand. We thought that markets work. They are not working. What's individually rational ... is a self-destructive process.

In order to save Capitalism from itself, requires some involuntary participation some to prevent system failure , but it does not require a one-party state or abolishing private property. Most things can be privately run, but some things must be government-run to prevent system failure.

Those who think it's got to be either laissez-faire capitalism or communism are prey to the "either-or" fallacy.

/end
 

Julius_Seizeher

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We must identify the difference between laissez-faire capitalism and the "mixed economy" cronyism we have had since Teddy Roosevelt.

In a laissez-faire system, businessmen do not have to beg the government for permission to produce. There is no need for lobbyists and all the corruption you love to blame capitalism for, blanking out the fact that what we have is barely-half capitalism. When the government regulates and controls the hell out of everything, and businessmen are left no choice but to bribe them and play along with their racket to stay in business, how can you blame them?

You want to get rid of corruption? Get rid of all the regulation. In a laissez-faire system, the most able producer wins, not the one most efficient at "playing ball" with bureaucrats.

It was laissez-faire capitalism that was responsible for the rocket-explosion of economic growth in this country during the 19th and early 20th centuries. In a few decades, men went from foraging in the wilderness to riding on railroads to driving cars and building skyscrapers. If you really think more government and more regulations are the answer, a cursory glance at history will show how horribly wrong you are; all that socialism has and ever will achieve is poverty, stagnation, degredation, and destruction.

Do not tell me "capitalism is unfair". By that crummy logic, slavery (which is what socialism is) is "fair". And that's what all those rotters in London were crying for--someone to make it "fair" for them, someone to assume responsibility for the life that they did not themselves value enough to support. That catch phrase "social justice" is a hideous abrogation of justice--it is a rationalization to pretend that robbery and slavery are moral, that since the competent have nothing to gain from the incompetent, the incompetent are perfectly justified to gang up and enslave the competent--under the pretense of "social justice".

Right is right and wrong is wrong, no matter the size of your gang.

Any man who possesses self-esteem, any man who values his own life, any man who does not live for others and who does not pretend that others can live his life for him, will hear the truth in my words. As for everyone else, as far as America is concerned, your time is about up. Next fall is the beginning of the beginning of this country.
 

Bible_Belt

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You want to get rid of corruption? Get rid of all the regulation.

Child labor? Work comp? OSHA? Minimum wage? Why can't I hire illegal immigrants? That's regulation, too.
 

sstype

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Danger

Are you advocating .gov intervention of interest rates by abolishing usury? Isn't enforcing a "gold standard" another form of .gov intervention?

In a true free-market, wouldn't we be free to use whatever currency we want and charge whatever interest rate the market will bear?
 

sstype

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Danger said:
sstype,

.gov has already intervened. Remember that .gov sets the interest rates now via the Federal Reserve.

.gov has also abolished the gold-standard by the creation of fiat. There is no need to enforce a gold-standard. The gold-standard is enforced by nature. The fiat system is an attempt by .gov to overcome the economic forces of nature. Their failure produces what we have now.

When .gov steps out of the fiat game and lets nature's money (gold) come back, then yes you still have the remaining problem of usury. This is where Ayn Rand failed. She did not understand the mathematics behind compound interest and usury.



We could either ban usury, as was done back in the day with the blessing of the church (it is amazing the wisdom that is contained in the Bible or Koran, although I am not a religious person).....or we could let people fend for themselves and take the risk of borrowing money into existence.

Both options have their pros and cons, however either option is still light-years better than our current method of forced usury/fiat by .gov.....at least better for retaining freedom and keeping the masses 'fat and happy".
Danger,

While I agree with you that currency debasement caused by fiat money printing is nothing more than an invisible tax on the middle and working class.....the success or failure of a nation does not hinge on its monetary system or lack there of. Currencies fail because the underlying economies failed not vice versa. Bad economic policy may have accelerated a nation's demise, but any gold or silver backing currency would have been long gone by the time it eventually failed.

Before you dismiss Keynes as some sort of deficit/debt addict note that while he favored government spending during a recession, he never intended to create structural deficits or perpetual debt. He recommended that government should serve as a shock absorber for economic ups and downs. He prescribed increased taxes and surpluses in the best of times, with the proceeds serving to fund deficits (via government spending and cutting taxes) in the bad times, supplemented by temporary borrowings if necessary.

And, like you, he loathed inflation and currency debasement, which he correctly viewed as the scourge of the middle class.

The problem is not Keynesian economics rather those in leadership who bastardized his philosophy as a free pass to print and spend money recklessly. The best way to describe it is drunken sailor extend-and-pretend bailout economics, because there is no serious economic theory that proposes such insanity

And yes, you are correct that our credit-based monetary system is unsustainable. By that same token, we must agree that infinite economic growth is also unsustainable. Infinite profit and wealth creation (in monetary terms) is unsustainable.The world simply doesn't have the resources to cope. Something has to break.

But I again assert that until we reach that point, Capitalism can exist successfully along with a social safety net and responsible government investment in education, healthcare, infrastructure, and the environment. Smart regulations are needed, like a referee at a NFL game, ensure that no business gains an unfair competitive advantage through unethical business practices, forcing others to do the same, causing a race-to-the bottom. Belgium, Switzerland, Germany, and the Nordic States are all successful examples of socially responsible capitalist societies. It does not need to be an all-or nothing proposition.
 
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