Really Need Some Input on How to Handle This Woman

[Fantasy]

Her writing the Chinese restaurants on the card was 'womanspeek' for "I want to go out with you again ." This woman has HIGH interest level judging by the contents of your FR.

Even though you made an SOP blunder by leaving the "ball in her court" . she will easily forgive this because her IL is so high. If fact this "mistake" may even work in your favor because she night interpret it as cool aloofness or indifference . She certainly sees you as somewhat of a challenge .

What's next, doc ?

The next move? I don’t know, my friend. I admit that I don’t know except to back off for now.

Like you stated above, I may have made a blunder but on the other hand, I didn’t want to seem too thirsty either but still show some interest. I agree, I figured when she left the card with the restaurant recommendations, it was her way of telling me that she wanted to go out with me again. So my next move was to show her that I was open to the idea by telling her she should come with me but I didn’t want to say more than that to avoid looking to thirsty. If I was too cool about it, she may have thought that I saw her as desperate and she would have backed off potentially. So here’s what happened today…

This morning I went to this nice wine store she recommended while we were at dinner the other day in order to stock my wine rack and to sign up for a wine tasting club which I have been wanting to do for a while. I picked up some wine and my favorite beer. Once I got back to the building of the apartment we live in, I waited for the elevator. The door opened and there she was. She exited the elevator then I went inside and held the door while we spoke. She smiled big as always and said "hi" and asked me if I was out running errands. I told her that I just returned from the wine store she recommended and picked out some nice wine. She smiled and said "cool." I then told her that she should come over some time to try some out with me she only smiled and said "cool' again. I told her to have a nice day and she still had that big grin on her face and said "bye". I then got on the elevator. She didn't even acknowledge the message I left on her voicemail regarding the Chinese restaurant.

So I was thinking maybe she was thinking that even this was too fast. I don’t know. I have no idea what may be running through her head and I am not about to try figure out one of the gazillion possible reasons that may be. I just think my best move is to back off from here. If she is still interested, she will invite me some place. If not, I guess I will at least still have someone to walk Riley.

 

[jophil28]

I then got on the elevator. She didn't even acknowledge the message I left on her voicemail regarding the Chinese restaurant.

So I was thinking maybe she was thinking that even this was too fast. I don’t know. I have no idea what may be running through her head and I am not about to try figure out one of the gazillion possible reasons that may be. I just think my best move is to back off from here. If she is still interested, she will invite me some place. If not, I guess I will at least still have someone to walk Riley.

YOu are really overthinking this by trying to figure out what she wants and what she is thinking. If you really do want a simple explanation, she is waiting for YOU to make the next move. She has already signalled her eagerness to go out with you again (Chinese restaurants on card). SO it is YOUR job to lead her, and not wait for her to lead you .

I would suggest some kind of casual fun outing - no restaurants this time. Just get her laughing and having fun with you.
OH, and you have Uncle Jophil's permission to kiss her lightly at her door when you return home.

:cheer:

 

[Fantasy]

YOu are really overthinking this by trying to figure out what she wants and what she is thinking. If you really do want a simple explanation, she is waiting for YOU to make the next move. She has already signalled her eagerness to go out with you again (Chinese restaurants on card). SO it is YOUR job to lead her, and not wait for her to lead you .

I would suggest some kind of casual fun outing - no restaurants this time. Just get her laughing and having fun with you.
OH, and you have Uncle Jophil's permission to kiss her lightly at her door when you return home.

:cheer:

You are probably right. I guess I am more familiar with the women who can't stop calling you every evening after the first date just to ask "what are you doing" and the ones that show a more obvious sign of disinterest.

I actually hung my hat more on the "it was really nice to get to know you better" statement in the card. I thought that showed an obvious sign of high interest level but I would of expected her to respond more like she did when I first invited her out to dinner. She was like "dinner would be great" and sounded really excited.

Now, I guess I would seem either persistent or very thirsty after I make a 3rd more direct invite after she didn't really respond to the Chinese Restaurant invite or the coming over for wine invite. I actually wanted to do something different than dinner again for a second outting but I figured since she wrote about the Chinese place that I could use that for a smooth transition into the second date.

So I will find a fun outting and just ask her out directly next time but I will put a little time in between now and then since I just already threw a couple of things at her with no response.

 

[jophil28]

Now, I guess I would seem either persistent or very thirsty after I make a 3rd more direct invite after she didn't really respond to the Chinese Restaurant invite or the coming over for wine invite.

She did respond in her own feminine style, but maybe not in the overt way that you wanted , you just missed the nuance.

I have no clue about your respective ages, but her behavior tracks that of a typical 40 year old who has absorbed a lot of the old school dating ways . After the first date, they 'wait' to assess your reaction( it comes across as a slight retreat) and then they "position" themselves to be available for dating after sending fairly clear, but coy, buying signals.
Slow cooking is the way to go here, BUT you need to lead, and you need to gradually amp up the temperature. She expects it, and my guess is that she wants it.
IF you check all the boxes, she will eventually invite you into her apt for "coffee" or wine.
You know what that means, don't cha?

 

[Kailex]

Fantasy:

Remember, you are the one with the upper hand in this situation.


Repeat that to yourself over and over and over.
You're stance from the OP to now is a slow cooked transition into someone I routinely see post in the Don Juan Discussion forum, not the Mature Man.

Remember, she WANTS to walk your dog, and she WANTS to walk Brooklyn too.

I agree with Jophil.
NO DINNERS.

In fact, do something FREE. Do not associate yourself with money, remember she already saw your diplomas and crap most likely. If she doesn't like that kinda thing... that's her problem.

It's summer time, there's plenty of free crap going on.
Go somewhere were you two can get to walk around and you can get to know your new surroundings more.

Your next "date" shouldn't be about her... it should be more about YOU.

In fact, one thing I do is that if someone I am going out with suggests a Chinese restaurant, I go to another one instead and say that "someone" else recommended that one or that I read a good review in the paper.


Still, remember, YOU have the power in this. Let HER overthink the situation. Your job is to lead.

 

[Fantasy]

She did respond in her own feminine style, but maybe not in the overt way that you wanted , you just missed the nuance.

I have no clue about your respective ages, but her behavior tracks that of a typical 40 year old who has absorbed a lot of the old school dating ways . After the first date, they 'wait' to assess your reaction( it comes across as a slight retreat) and then they "position" themselves to be available for dating after sending fairly clear, but coy, buying signals.
Slow cooking is the way to go here, BUT you need to lead, and you need to gradually amp up the temperature. She expects it, and my guess is that she wants it.
IF you check all the boxes, she will eventually invite you into her apt for "coffee" or wine.
You know what that means, don't cha?

You are right, my friend. She is 40 and I am 37. Your and Kailex responses sound good. Like I say, I am used to women being more obvious so it is what I usually expect. Usually, after a first date, I get obvious signs of interest and I am more of a LTR kind of guy so if I like someone and ask them out and they decide that they like me after the first date, it usually go places.

I am not the player type. I used to try having a few women at once just for the excitement but I can never keep this up long at all because I usually just choose the woman I like the most and go into a LTR with her.

I understand your reply, Kailex, about this seeming more like discussion forum topic. I guess because I feel myself getting older and established in my career I am treating things more delicately now. In the past, I always gave heavy advancement in a relationship a hard time because my past girlfriends and fiancees tried to push things too quickly and I just wasn't ready. Matter-of-fact, my last engagement happened because I was pressured into it so much.

Now, I am thinking more of starting a family before I get too "up there" and am treating things strategically which really doesn't make sense because when I cared less, things were much easier. I just need to take a step back here. Amp up the temp...

 

[Fantasy]

Update:

Well, I decided to call her today just around noon. I told her I was thinking how much I enjoyed our night the other day and would enjoy doing something with her again. I said "I am planning on doing something this Saturday so just give me a call to let me know."

Well, she didn't call me back. I eventually bumped into her in the hallway after returning from outside to walk Riley about 8 hours after leaving the voicemail ( a bit after 8 pm). She was her usual upbeat smiley self. She immediately began to play with Riley. She said "hi" and said "oh, yeah, I got your message sorry I haven't call back but I have just been out of it today." We then engaged in some small talk and she asked me if I needed her to walk Riley tomorrow and I said "yeah, if you don't mind."

After about 5 minutes of letting the dogs play with each other and small talk, she had not answered my question about Saturday so I decided to ask. She said "yeah, Saturday would be good." I told her I was thinking of this little music festival in the park and asked her if that would be something she would be interested in and she said "yeah, that would be fun." She asked me if I tried any of the wine I picked up yesterday and I said "no, I haven't" and then told her she should come over and try it with me she then said "okay."
She then stood up and said pointed out how hot it was in the hallway. I agreed and told her I better go and I will let her know the details about Saturday. We then said bye.

I don't know, I was wondering if she would have even have returned my call since she has been sort of aloof after leaving that card. She may have been trying to put me through the grinder on the other hand. It is things like this that make me wish I was just married already and not have to play the dating game. It gets so tired to me. It is the reason I enjoy LTRs so much more than just dating randomly.

 

[Joe Stud]

stop making it such a chore in your mind. sit back and enjoy the game. continue to slow cook.

 

[jophil28]

I said "I am planning on doing something this Saturday so just give me a call to let me know."

Well, she didn't call me back.

I am not surprised. It is not her job to do so. If I were a woman I would not return your call either.
Consider this - she went out to dinner with you , she left a 'thank-you' card under your door, she offered to walk your dog endlessly, she has given you several 'buying signals' and now she expects you to take the reins and steer the wagon. That is how 40 year old women tend to do it. They are still partly operating under the old school rules and this particular woman is 'classically trained' ..

Your sentence above is WEAK for several reasons. It said loudly that you have nothing going on in your weekend life but you are planning on doing "something" . Then you ask her if she wants to do the same vague "something " with you . Then you asked her to initiate a phone call to let you know whether she considered the "something" so appealing that she wants to come along.

The missing key ingredient here is your PLANNING. You know that she and you bump into each other often, and you are NOT prepared when that happens.
Women expect (rightly) that men ORGANIZE outings. It is your job to lead her wherever you want to go with her. She has done her part by making hereself available, and now she is waiting for you to act. That does not mean that you should rush in and act desperately needy, but it does mean that you step forward, plan the next outing in your head and lay it on her when you bump into her.

Not meaning to dog on you Fantasy, but this woman is serving herself up to you on a platter. It would be a huge regret for you if you did not take this tasty morsel .

 

[Slickster]

Good advice so far.

I'd like to add that I think you aren't doing yourself any favors by leaving messages on her answering machine. Leaving the ball in her court and expecting her to call back is weak. If it is something about the dog then fair enough, leave a message.

It sounds like you get ample opportunity to speak with her directly. If you want to ask her out do it face to face. Have a plan, set a time, and that's it. No more "I'll get back to you" or "Call me when you are available" stuff.

In regards to planning. Have a plan and stick to it regardless of whether she agrees to come along or not. Instead of "Do you want to go to _______ with me?" How about "I'm going to do ______ why don't you come along?" That way even if she declines or has other plans you've left her with the image that you are a busy outgoing guy who is out having fun with or without her.

Good luck and keep the reports coming.

 

[Fantasy]

It all sounds very reasonable, fellas. It's a lot of thinking in this though. Too much science. I am not ragging on the tips here because they do sound good but, man, I am just thinking when I have dated in the past, I never thought about stuff like leaving voicemails and stuff. I just did stuff and went out on dates. Kind of annoying to think about these details but I do appreciate the feedback.

 

[Fantasy]

Your sentence above is WEAK for several reasons. It said loudly that you have nothing going on in your weekend life but you are planning on doing "something" . Then you ask her if she wants to do the same vague "something " with you . Then you asked her to initiate a phone call to let you know whether she considered the "something" so appealing that she wants to come along.

Yeah, I know but the here is that she knows I am new to this town and don't know anyone or much about the place so she has an advantage. Since she stays in my building, that leaves a lot of guess work out.

 

[Kailex]

Fantasy, I think it's time you start pulling back a little after next Saturday.
Start doing things on your own without her, even if you do nothing.

Start going out on your own to local bars, movies, whatever.
Right now it almost sounds as if your going out is completely hinging on whether she goes with you or not.

Trust me, if she is in her apartment and you close your door to leave at any point in time... she KNOWS.
I don't know how they do it, but she's probably keeping tabs of when you come home, the times, whether you been in the apartment all day and what not. She's probably aloof because she's noticing that you are really available and having nothing else going on.

When I first moved to New Jersey, I made SURE that I went out EVERYWHERE at all times, no matter if I was "dating" someone.

She knows your new to the town, but that fact alone shouldn't make you stay in and be subject to her schedule. You are making all these plans with her every week and you need to slow cook even more.

Let me ask you this: You say you dated in the past and didn't think about these things. But were any of those women in your apartment building, just down the hall before???

 

[Slickster]

It all sounds very reasonable, fellas. It's a lot of thinking in this though. Too much science. I am not ragging on the tips here because they do sound good but, man, I am just thinking when I have dated in the past, I never thought about stuff like leaving voicemails and stuff. I just did stuff and went out on dates. Kind of annoying to think about these details but I do appreciate the feedback.

I agree that sometimes people around here tend to get bogged down in the "science" of this game we play. Overthinking everything is almost as bad as not knowing anything.

However, some of these simple tips can mean the difference between moderate success and having women lining up for you. Its all about portraying that you are a catch, a challenge, and something to be chased. Just one simple mistake like leaving a message on her machine at the wrong time could change her opinion of you drastically.

As Kailex points out the slow cook may need to be even slower. I'm not sure of the timeline of all these events but just reading your posts it sounds like after your dinner date you've made your intentions known right away that you are interested and available. In my opinion this is precisely when her aloof attitude started.

It doesn't matter that you are new to town. A happy go lucky guy like you doesn't need anyone to have a good time. Demonstrate this to her. Head out on your own. No doubt she'll run into coming home and tell her you were out doing xxx and it was great. Down the road after a few more dates with her set up something and then delibritely break the date. Tell her something came up, etc. Offer to reschedule and you've successfully flipped the script on her. Now you are once again the one being chased.

I realize this seems like a lot of details and too much to think about. However once these little things become part of your game it is all second nature.

 

[jophil28]

Yeah, I know but the here is that she knows I am new to this town and don't know anyone or much about the place so she has an advantage. Since she stays in my building, that leaves a lot of guess work out.

That is good reason to do what Kailex suggest and get out and see the town and be seen. Explore and investigate as much of the social landscape as you can when you can find the time . Doing this will bring opportunities and possibilities. You will also find places which are suitable for future dates.

THe only problem that I have with your progress so far with the 40 year old doggie lady is the wording of your recent VM in which you asked her to contact you if she wanted to "do something" next Saturday.

 

[Fantasy]

That is good reason to do what Kailex suggest and get out and see the town and be seen. Explore and investigate as much of the social landscape as you can when you can find the time . Doing this will bring opportunities and possibilities. You will also find places which are suitable for future dates.

THe only problem that I have with your progress so far with the 40 year old doggie lady is the wording of your recent VM in which you asked her to contact you if she wanted to "do something" next Saturday.

No love lost at all, Jophil. I really am enjoying reading the feedback here even if I do not agree with it all it is very interesting perspectives and things to consider here. Again, they are reasonable, mostly on point and enjoyable to read.

To be honest, I am actually starting to have a low interest in this female myself because I just don't want my moves to be this calculated and I don't have time for this sort of stuff with a 40 year-old. I am with "hey, let's go out and do this" and someone say "sure" or give me an excuse why they won't or can't then I would know where I stand. Not, "oh, I didn't call because I was just out of it." What? No matter what I did or said on voicemail, this is college years responses or behavior.

For the past 13 years, I have been dating women who are either the same age as I or maybe up to 5 years younger. I dated "older women" in my early 20s but they would just be in their lates 20s so not really "older older." Somehow I used to believe it would be even more straightforward with women in their 40s. This is the second 40 something I have dated recently and the other was just a pure nut job that put the younger females to shame.

As far as not having a definite plan for when I called, I am sure many will disagree with me but I believe that if a female is really into you, you can tell her "let's hang out by a tree" and she will be with it. I used to not even tell females what we were even doing on the first date. I would just tell them how they should dress and they would just be excited and intrigued by the surprise. I would just tell them they will see when we got there. I wouldn't even know what the hell we would do until I came up with something later. Maybe this is what it is all about...trying to make her interested or keep her interest fluffed but I am probably not the guy for that.

I don't know, I am the predator who likes to go after the prey that cause the least energy expenditure. I may not have a lot of women going at once with this attitude but at least I get the one devoid of crap. My ex from 2 years ago was the biggest b***** I had ever known but I could appreciate the woman for one thing:

Every thing was so straightforward and on the table with her. Although she was stuck on her self and her looks, there was no crazy games to be played or song and dances to be performed.

If I run into this woman, I will let her know about Saturday, if she wants to go or not, I won't be phased. I will continue to update here just so you all can see how it turns out but I am doing the minimal here from here on out. Hey, at least she is walking my dog and I do appreciate that but she is going in the friendzone. I just don't have time for this, fellas.

Kailex, I agree with every single word you said in your last post, man, but no need for the Mike stuff. If I wanted my name known here, I would use it but I prefer the one I chose here. I am not surprised.

 

[jophil28]

Not, "oh, I didn't call because I was just out of it." What? No matter what I did or said on voicemail, this is college years responses or behavior.

I certainly agree with your sentiment here about her reason for not getting back to you. . Her reply was bubble-headed . I would have called "Strike One" on that too.
However, she is showing still plenty of interest level .

IT is difficult NOT to compare new women's 'style' with our ex's 'style '. However, using past relationships as a benchmark often condemns a new contender unkindly.

 

[Slickster]

To be honest, I am actually starting to have a low interest in this female myself because I just don't want my moves to be this calculated and I don't have time for this sort of stuff with a 40 year-old. I am with "hey, let's go out and do this" and someone say "sure" or give me an excuse why they won't or can't then I would know where I stand. Not, "oh, I didn't call because I was just out of it." What? No matter what I did or said on voicemail, this is college years responses or behavior.

For the past 13 years, I have been dating women who are either the same age as I or maybe up to 5 years younger. I dated "older women" in my early 20s but they would just be in their lates 20s so not really "older older." Somehow I used to believe it would be even more straightforward with women in their 40s. This is the second 40 something I have dated recently and the other was just a pure nut job that put the younger females to shame.

As far as not having a definite plan for when I called, I am sure many will disagree with me but I believe that if a female is really into you, you can tell her "let's hang out by a tree" and she will be with it. I used to not even tell females what we were even doing on the first date. I would just tell them how they should dress and they would just be excited and intrigued by the surprise. I would just tell them they will see when we got there. I wouldn't even know what the hell we would do until I came up with something later. Maybe this is what it is all about...trying to make her interested or keep her interest fluffed but I am probably not the guy for that.

I don't know, I am the predator who likes to go after the prey that cause the least energy expenditure. I may not have a lot of women going at once with this attitude but at least I get the one devoid of crap. My ex from 2 years ago was the biggest b***** I had ever known but I could appreciate the woman for one thing:

Every thing was so straightforward and on the table with her. Although she was stuck on her self and her looks, there was no crazy games to be played or song and dances to be performed.

If I run into this woman, I will let her know about Saturday, if she wants to go or not, I won't be phased. I will continue to update here just so you all can see how it turns out but I am doing the minimal here from here on out. Hey, at least she is walking my dog and I do appreciate that but she is going in the friendzone. I just don't have time for this, fellas.

You are kidding yourself if you believe that at a certain age the games stop. It is human nature to want what we can't have. Even my wife's grandmother tells us about the AFC chumps trying to flirt with her at the seniors home.

You make it sound like the "rules" to this game are too complicated. There is nothing difficult about being a challenge. It takes less work and thought than pursuing.

I appreciate the reports and it's great to see you following your own methods. You titled your post "Really need some input..." so it is a little odd that you are so quick to dismiss any tips or techniques that require you to change your ways. If "let's maybe hang out by a tree sometime" is working for you then keep it up....

 

[Fantasy]

I certainly agree with your sentiment here about her reason for not getting back to you. . Her reply was bubble-headed . I would have called "Strike One" on that too.
However, she is showing still plenty of interest level .

IT is difficult NOT to compare new women's 'style' with our ex's 'style '. However, using past relationships as a benchmark often condemns a new contender unkindly.

You are right, man. What you speak is real.

Plenty of interest? Still? Wow. I would have sworn she was playing me to the left now. I just don't see it. Maybe I just don't understand it like some do. I may just be very black and white when it comes to this sort of thing.

When I come to think of it, she has never responded to a voicemail from me. I have left a total of 3. The first one was after she first walked my dog. I called just to see how things went. I had no other intentions but to just make sure she wasn't overwhelmed with him and would continue to walk him. She didn't return my message then. The other two are the ones I speak of above.

Well, if there is one important lesson I have learned from all of this it is, not to leave her or any female of interest a voicemail message with anything of substance said in it. I won't look like a stalker and not leave a message if I get the voicemail after calling but I will not say much outside of my name.


I just find it strange that a female can show so much interest in you and even offer to walk your dog for free indefinitely but leaving a voicemail that was probably not the smoothest voicemail ever heard could change all of that. This woman was grinning in my face from ear to ear for over a month. That first date was probably #2 in my most perfect first date ever. You should have seen how happy this woman was.

I would be lieing if say I am not disappointed in how this turned out. The start was great. It was almost too easy until it got tough.

 

[jophil28]

I just find it strange that a female can show so much interest in you and even offer to walk your dog for free indefinitely but leaving a voicemail that was probably not the smoothest voicemail ever heard could change all of that. This woman was grinning in my face from ear to ear for over a month. That first date was probably #2 in my most perfect first date ever. You should have seen how happy this woman was.

I would be lieing if say I am not disappointed in how this turned out. The start was great. It was almost too easy until it got tough.

Perhaps you are expecting a woman to act in a more predictable, linear way - like a man ? Ain't gonna happen, mostly.

THis is just an observation, but it is possible that your preferred "casual" style is contributing to the confusion and misalignment between you two. I think that she is showing cautious behavior now perhaps because she does not 'feel' your attraction to her.
The question is -what are you going to do if you run into her now ?
Is she in the FZ already in your mind?

She is likely still waiting, wishing and a'hoping for the next round of fun because neither you nor she has done anything to cause a rift or create distance. You have not had a tiff . My guess is that she and her imagination are having some pleasant moments.