Reality Check requested: paying on dates

[squirrels]

This is sort of a field report, I guess, but what I'm gonna do is tell you what happened, tell you what *I* think, and all I really want is a check to see if I'm not missing the big picture here.

It's my first date with this girl. I met her at a bar near here, seemed like very high IL. I picked her up Friday and we went to shoot pool. There was a cover at Champion's, so I paid for both of ours and told her she "owes me the first drink," in kind of a playful way. So she bought us a drink while we were waiting, but I could tell she kind of did it grudgingly.

No biggy, we get a table and start playing. I absolutely slaughter her. Like 6 times. I even tried to miss a few shots on purpose but she wasn't good at all and I just fell into a zone. But it's OK because we're doing lemon-drops all night and by the last game we're just laughing and cutting up. She's all playing with the hair and giggling...

So anyway, we go to leave and I grab the drink tab (which was like $50 with the tip ) and she pays for the table. We sit down and take one more shot before we leave...she's up close on me and we decide to play some Keno (I'm working a little kino of my own).

Anyway, this is getting long so let me try to wrap up. We get back in the car...she wants me to try this lip gloss she's using...three seconds later she's applying it directly. After a little make-out, we meet her friends at a bar, she gets yet another shot for us, then we roll to yet ANOTHER place where her friend is. We chill there for a while...she's up on my lap and we're getting REAL close. Fast-forward back to her apartment...we both make our way to the couch and things start getting hot. We're kissing, I'm working her neck and her chest and slowly moving lower, she's breathing heavy...

*cue sound of record scratching*

All of a sudden she's like, "Hold on. I know this is going to sound materialistic, and I know I seem like a modern woman, but my mother brought me up in the traditional way (her mom's Korean)...when a man takes me out, he should pay for me, and his willingness to pay shows me how much he's willing to give for my affection, and you just didn't do that tonight."

Now I'm so drunk off of those shots my immediate reaction is to try to console her that I'm not disrespecting her and tell her this is the first date blah blah blah. But I end up going home. She offered to drive me back to my place, which I would've taken her up on because I wasn't quite sober, but NOBODY drives my car.

But as I woke up the next morning and my head cleared, I thought about this...and I actually got a little offended myself! The way I see it:

-I don't want a girl who I have to "pay for affection" from. She's a stripper. If I want to buy her love I'll go see her at work.

-My "payment" for her company should be my company. My "payment" for her affection should be MY affection. By saying that, it's almost indicating that her affection has value and mine doesn't. WTF?!

At the same time, I can kind of understand that if she was raised in the traditional school, maybe she plays the traditional female role, too (the subservient homemaker/lover). But I just don't know if that's my style, and I can't afford to be anyone's "Sugar Daddy" at this point in my life, nor can I pay her way out of her job.

Reality-check me, here. Tell me I'm not off-base expecting her to pay halfway on a first date.

Also, you think I should call her again? LOL she's not the most fascinating person in the world, but we WERE having a ball up to this point.

One thing I forgot to mention is that her friend came home around the same time she pulled this crap, so maybe her social conditioning kicked in.

 

[nan3109]

Dont call her anymore, you should've paid

I do, i mean, what's 20 bucks for a date?! No big deal

 

[don_juan_20]

"...when a man takes me out, he should pay for me, and his willingness to pay shows me how much he's willing to give for my affection, and you just didn't do that tonight."


50/50 is fair. What are you to her, a client?

If anything, it might be a test to see how much your willing to pay to get into her knickers.

Spending money on a woman should be done after you know there is an attraction, not to create one.

btw, I went out with a traditional japanese chick and she paid for her drinks happily.

 

[squirrels]

Originally posted by nan3109
Dont call her anymore, you should've paid

I do, i mean, what's 20 bucks for a date?! No big deal

Did you read the post?

 

[myfriendblu]

Originally posted by squirrels
. If I want to buy her love I'll go see her at work.

-

A stripper? Dude, need I say any more? HUGE red flag right there. Any and all types of weird, wacko and irrational behavior are expected from strippers. Thats the way it goes. Dated strippers before, and i personally know dozens as well as have quite a few friends currently dating some. In EVERY single case, its pretty much the same story. Strippers usually have all sorts of issues, self esteem problems, mental/psychological problems, etc ect. Expect all kinds of irrational behavior from her cause your gonna get it. My only advise is to use her for sex, but only if you can afford it. Your gonna pay for it trust me. I think your better off getting tail elsewhere, unless your rich, but even then, why waste money?

 

[Porky]

Originally posted by nan3109
Dont call her anymore, you should've paid

I do, i mean, what's 20 bucks for a date?! No big deal

that isn't the point. you don't pay for dates because you want to present a challenge. If a woman is used to chumps giving her free dinners, and you don't buy into that, you suddenly got a lot more interesting.

 

[Mr. Latte]

This is disheartening...boys worry about "what will she think of me if I pay/don't pay?" MEN pay because they WANT to, or conversely, don't pay because they don't want to.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. It isn't what you do that matters, it's how you do it. You can make all the suaves moves, and say all the suave things, and try to be confident...but women can tell, like a dog can smell fear. Just do as you like, and be a man. Insisting on not paying for a woman because it's AFC makes you no better than the AFC who throws down his life savings...in the end, all you're doing is adapting your behavior to what you think will please a woman.

 

[princelydeeds]

Strippers are without question the worlds flakiest women. You met a flake. Strippers think men should pay for their affection. Don't try to understand her. If you call her, wait at least 2 or 3 weeks. She isn't a woman to be understood. She sounds like she thinks of herself as an "escort." Dont play the game, Next.

If you get a chance in the future, Id tap it, but I wouldnt work very hard to get it. If you get a chance to hook up with her again, just talk her into coming to your apartment, cook for her, and get her drunk. There's nothing you did wrong. You just met a money grubbing, goldigging, ho. Use a ho for sex, not affection, companionship, or love.

 

[Trance]

Originally posted by squirrels
All of a sudden she's like, "Hold on. I know this is going to sound materialistic, and I know I seem like a modern woman, but my mother brought me up in the traditional way (her mom's Korean)...when a man takes me out, he should pay for me, and his willingness to pay shows me how much he's willing to give for my affection, and you just didn't do that tonight."

At this point you should have said something like:

a) "How convenient. In that case im sorry, but i want a less traditional girl".

b) "So i gave you my afection but instead you want material payment? In that case we're settled".

And walk away.

 

[squirrels]

I've been doing some thinking about it...I think I probably did go wrong getting her to pay halfway. If we were just meeting up or hanging out with a bunch of people, it would've been one thing. But technically, I guess I was "taking her out" so I should've picked up the tab. I actually probably would've been OK if I had gotten pool, and made her pay for some of her drinks since she was the one who wanted to drink so much. It wasn't that much more.

Allan sums it up pretty good here: http://www.sosuave.com/articles/check.htm

What I did was get tangled up in this DJ crap and let it influence my decision, especially because of her profession I wanted to let her know that I was not going to "buy" her. I overshot by actually ASKING her to pay in one or two places...that was wrong.

I still don't feel right about having to pay the whole thing, and that's a strike against her in my mind. But the right thing to do would've been to pay for everything and then just not call her if I felt like she was trying to take me for my money. In this case I think it'll probably work out for the best, since I got the impression that she's looking for a man to marry her and save her from her job.

Anyway, I called her and left a message explaining that. Not sure if I'm gonna call her again, actually probably not, or even if she'd blow me off anyway, but no point in parting on bad terms.

 

[suavedave]

SAME THING happened

SAME THING happened last night man, sort-of. Check out my Suave Dave's Log of Progress.

 

[squirrels]

Re: SAME THING happened

Originally posted by suavedave
SAME THING happened last night man, sort-of. Check out my Suave Dave's Log of Progress.

I actually asked my sister...she told me that if a guy didn't pay for her, she would probably excuse herself and get someone to pick her up and take her home. And she's usually pretty straight-up about **** like this.

The way I'm coming to see it, I just think at the end of the night, there shouldn't be even a THOUGHT about how the check was paid. It shouldn't even be an issue. If that means you pay, that's fine. If it means you split, that's fine too, but Allan said it best, "Your goal for the night isn't to determine who pays."

I got way too lost in the "Don Juan rules" to think about this from that angle. ANd maybe it cost me this girl. Not like she was a huge loss, but still I feel kind of heel-ish now. That's why I called and didn't APOLOGIZE per se, but I conceded that she had a point and that I was too worried about not looking like I wanted to BUY her. It's different if you're in a club or something and some girl wants you to buy her drinks, but by the point I was at, you're on the date, you've already ESTABLISHED mutual interest is there...money should be a nonissue.

The little chivalry things...I guess those still apply. But they should be habit. No girl should twist your balls over them, nor should you pressure her into accepting them. But you should offer. Don't get to messed up on "Don Juanism" that you lose sight of what's important.

 

[joey37]

You are a fvcking AFC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Calling her back? sorta conceding that you should've paid? your sister would walk out if a guy didn't pay????? WHO CARES???? WALK.....


This cow towing to women's bull**** is nuts....tell her to get lost and find a girl who wants you.

 

[PuertoRican_Lover]

This girl tells you a crock of shyt and you take it - First off she is a stripper and then she has the nerve to bring up 'traditional values' and proper protocol?? Huh???

You spent wayyyyyy too much money on her. Never spend that much on a first date!! Never!

For her to bring a money issue up in the heat of the moment is unnerving, You owe her nothing..would have been cheaper to get a pro! This hor wants to be treated like a 'lady' - the audacity!!!!!!

A guy should pay on first date - yes - but limit your expenditure because you may never see her again!

 

[Jay Fiedler]

Squirrles, youve been on my case before, and now I know that whatever you write has no merit or substance behind it. You...are.....AFC. You are a dork, a nerd, and to the T represent the typical guy on here who writes alot of bravado and "Im the man" BS, but when it comes down to it, you are a whimp.

You called her back and explained yourself??? What??! For paying for half the date? ARe you kidding me? To a stripper no less? See, when it comes down to it, you are all talk..no action.

You owe this girl no explanation..you did more than your share, especially since it sounds like she was the one who wanted to drink so much and run up a bill. Then when shes starting to got hot and heavy with you..she just stops and uses the excuse of you should have paid for the date in order to get her affections? Huh? What am I missing here? Next this girl and next her yesterday. This girl is a attention ***** who thinks guys are here to do her bidding. And you by calling her and "aplogizing" only reinforced this belief. Basically, what it comes down to is she has the pvssy, and you will do or say anything she wants in order to get it. You reverted right back to the behavior that led you to this site to begin with. Lame my man..just lame.

 

[Ol'BlueEyes]

it's all good

Squirrels, read my "education" thread. I totally sympathize, dude.
Right now I feel like all chicks are manipulative, narcissistic, spoiled brats.
Just be happy she was honest about what she was, an attention-whoring, gold-digging *****.

 

[squirrels]

...

That is all.

I honestly have no grasp on what's right and what's wrong here. I don't feel like I didn't pay enough. I feel like I was wrong to ASK her to split with me. THAT'S what I am apologizing for.

Her number's gone, at any rate.

I'm still trying to reconcile this one.

You know what's sad? I can't even trust this board for an answer any more. All of you people may be right screaming "AFC! AFC!" for this one (although some of these people, I probably got further with this girl last night than they've been with a woman their entire lives)...but they're screaming AFC not because they know what the "good move" would've been, but because they read some post out of the DJ Bible and have "don't pay for anything" right up there on their mantra list with "ignore her" and "be ****y/funny."

Can I get an experienced opinion? And I don't mean that as in, "You're not experienced," but I want to hear from someone who has actually BEEN in this situation and has a context to work from, not someone who's heard what they SHOULD do off of SoSuave or ASF.

As for your opinion of my "DJ-ness" or "AFC-ness", I really couldn't care less. If you wanna think I'm a "nerd" or a "loser", go ahead.

 

[squirrels]

You know what? The more I think about it...you're RIGHT. It IS loser behavior to feel obligated to pay. Now I'd still get the check if it was only like $15-$20, cuz it's not a big deal, but I'm not wrong for what I did. She just couldn't handle it...she expects men to pay for her, but WHAT does she offer in return?

Let's see, ****ty job that she hates, does nothing for fun except go drinking with friends, is working toward a degree in "liberal arts"...what exactly am I paying for? Sex? LOL...I can get that for free. How is she paying for MY sex? For MY affection? This has value. F*ck her.

Now I UNDERSTAND the traditional role, where the man is the breadwinner and the woman is the subservient housemaid...but I'm just not that kind of guy, I guess. I can't afford to provide for a woman right now, and I don't want the tedium of that relationship.

I appreciate all the input, guys. Thanks for the reality check. Sometimes something like that really tags those things that have been bred into you. My parents always taught me chivalry...opening doors, paying the bill, etc...and when this challenged that it really sent me reeling.

I should stick to my instincts. I probably could've found a less awkward way to split the check so it was more seamless, but I shouldn't have to just eat that bill.

 

[Trapspringer]

Squirrels, I think we can leave the whole stripper thing out of this one for now. So many people around here do get caught up into the whole Don Juan Bible rules and when they are confronted in a situation in the real world, they get smacked in the face and wonder what happened.

It sounds like you two had a great time and she showed it with kino and inviting you back to her place but couldn't get past the fact that you made her pay. Understandable.


Like it or not, many women(strippers and all) are still rooted in the tradition of a man paying on the first date. Many attitudes have changed since the 50s but a man who tries to avoid paying on that first date will
have trouble getting that second one. On the second one, you can try to split or if she is cool, she would recognize that you paid for the first and would offer to pay for the second one and which you should let her. You already showed your willingness to pay on the first. If she insists on paying on the first bill, you counter it, and just grab the bill. I have experimented with not paying and splitting that first bill to some and I have learned to stick with tradition here.


I can tell you with much assurance that people who insist on getting the woman to pay half on the first date or paying the whole bill, doesn't have much experience with women and probably doesn't get very far with them. They can talk all they want but they won't convince me that they have dated many women in this country unless they are a real pimp which is sh!tyy to begin with.


This is why I avoid potentially expensive first dates. It is only a trial and shouldn't cost you much and still be fun, as I am sure you realize. Some sort of an excuse to stop drinking could have been in order to keep that bill down and your pockets fatter. You could have still looked favorable in her eyes if, "you had to be up early in the morning and didn't want the hangover."


Now, considering the stripper aspect, you know they get lots of offers and gifts from men and you can safely assume that they are not paying on most of those first dates, unless they are dating Squirrels . I, personally, don't date strippers but would screw the hell out of em but you know they are used to those geeks in the strip clubs handing them money, buying them drinks and dinner so if you take her out on a date, you not only have to keep this in mind but also the deep-rooted tradition of men paying for the women on first dates. Not all strippers had bad upbringing. Some are simply trying to survive by shaking what their momma gave them.


Honestly, I don't know how in the hell getting women to pay on the first date ever got so deep into the DJ principles.
If you aren't having much success in getting the second date and you are trying to get her to split that first bill, consider my point What would they tell their friends? The first date should be on you which is a good first date impression.


Bottomline: Dating one woman alone is expensive. When you are dating a few women is a lot more expensive. If you can't afford being a player, don't play.
Pay on the first day but keep it cheap. If she offers to pay for anything else besides the major bill( parking etc,.) let her do so. She offers to pay for the second date after you paid for the first, let her do so. If she has a problem with it, pay it and don't call her again.


To all of you with the "attack of the clone mentality" with DJ Bible stuff( not directed at you Squirrels). Learn to think for yourself and acquire knowledge through experience and stop quoting Bible stuff like you are some sort of cult freak.

 

[squirrels]

I hear you, Springer. Believe me, if it's something petty like $20 for movie tickets or lunch or mini-golf or whatever, I'm not going to suggest an even split...that truly IS pocket-change and it's not worth a stand. Drinks, on the other hand, are a whole 'nother matter...let alone anything that tends get expensive.

I really should've cut us off...but you know what, she was boring and I needed a way to loosen the dynamic between us. And it worked...sort of.

The really funny thing is that every date I've been on, the woman has INSISTED on paying half. My first date (pre-Sosuave, blind date, utter disaster), we actually got in a fight over it. She would NOT let me pay for her. This was my PERSONAL experience, and I had no idea that the chivalrous tradition was still intact. (But I guess anything for a free ride, LOL) My thinking was always split the first one, and slowly start picking up the tab for other dates, as she starts to EARN it, but never "pay for her affections."

That's what REALLY ticks me off, that she phrased it that way.

I think the SMART thing to do would be to pay her cover and the pool bill and just split up on the drinks...rather than have her pay the bill for the actual pool games while I got the drink tab. That way I'm still paying for the night out, but only for my own shots.

Seriously, though, I've still been mulling this over, and I think there's real potential to throw some C&F in here if you DO end up with a big bill. Something along the lines of "Damn, we sure ran this up." Then be like, "I'll tell you what...I'm gonna be the traditional chivalrous male here and get this, but that means you need to be the traditional woman. Meaning someday soon, you owe me a home-cooked meal. "

If this doesn't at least bring a laugh...**** her.