REAL tough one, expert DJ opinions needed

[Dash Riprock]

I need an outside opinion here BIG TIME:

I’ve been dating this girl for 6 weeks. Lot’s of fun, mostly action dates, very limited contact between dates, conversation is good, lots of c&f, HUGE physical attraction between the two of us—it’s actually hard to hold a conversation as we always end up hitting the bedroom.

To this point, I would rate her SOLID LTR material, which my door is always open to—if they meet my standards. I’m 42, she’s 31.

So far, it’s been all oral—no F-ing. I know she wants to, but is holding back until she “knows more about me”—her words.

Here’s a dilemma: Part of my DJ M.O. is to play it cool, not divulge too much info, keep it focused on her, and play the intrigue/mystery card big time (vague answers, limited contact between dates, etc.). I KNOW this keeps her (and most all women's) interest level high, as I’ve used it many times.

I’m pretty sure she’s protecting her heart by not having sex with me (she said she gets attached when she does), because well, I haven’t spilled my guts yet like most AFCs do--it's only been 6 weeks. But, by not divulging and not showing my cards, her interest level stays high but I get no sex.—this is one of the issues.

I know that women place a high premium on communication and emotional bonding, in LTRs which, this girl is material for—so far. She would be a good catch in a sea of inadequate chicks that I seem to go through.

Last night as I go for a condom, she stops me and says “she doesn’t know me well enough yet,” and I told her "Well, I want to take things slow, I don't just let anyone in” (as we’re laying in bed, as usual--lol).

She also says, "I can't figure you out, there's a wall here, you're hard to read" -- I'm *thinking* yeah, good.

If anyone has been in a situation like this, I’d be interested in what you did and what happened:
-You want the girl
-You don’t want to tell her too much as to lower her interest level (happens with most women, the more they know the lower it goes even though they “say” they want to know all)
-You want to keep some mystery and intrigue (obvious reasons)
-BUT, you have waited 6 weeks for sex, you aren’t getting any BECAUSE you’re holding back somewhat
-She is VERY attracted to you, respects you and all aspects are going well so far EXCEPT you get the sense she may not feel a high level of emotional attachment/bonding that chicks like (she is obviously protecting her heart), because you are DJing her, playing it cool and somewhat aloof, and not being the slightest bit AFC. You are "hard to get to know" in her eyes.

Her dad recently died and she talks about him a lot. It was ove three years ago and she tells me she cried about it the other night. She complained last night that “all her friends suck” and doesn’t have much support. I just listen and give her a big hug as we lay in bed and she talks.

This one is REALLY tough. I almost feel “bad” DJing her, because she really needs someone to believe in right now and support her, but I feel I’ll lose control or be too much of an AFC if I do. I think we’ve all been where she’s at and can relate, how sh***y it feels.

I’d like to hang on to this *rare* one.

How can I advance this and get her to “feel” emotionally bonded so she’ll have sex, & act supportive, w/o being an AFC or telling too much about me and keeping up the DJ M.O.?

 

[Dash Riprock]

I have tried to initiate it as opposed to talking about it and have been stopped. So finally, I'm like "What the hell?" That's when she says she feels there's "a wall", I'm not "talking enough", etc., **it that will probably kill my deal.

 

[Vulpine]

Herpes?

 

[Dash Riprock]

Herpes?

No, good call, but we've had "that talk." Plus, I go down on her a lot.

 

[Dash Riprock]

WJH,

I get the feeling the other guys she's been with DO spill their guts or talk a lot and she's not used to someone different. She doesn't know anything about my family (she's never asked)--I actually think she's afraid to ask about certain things for whatever reason. I really get the sense she wants me to talk about how "I feel" about her and I -- what ALL women want, right? So far, I've kept things to, "You're fun, I had fun with you," I gave her her first compliment last night--I told her she had a big heart. She got totally flushed.

She's obviosuly not used to dating someone with DJ skills and has been out of the game a while herself, so she projects her feelings quite a bit--I think she expects the same in return.

 

[Dash Riprock]

Do you want an LTR or just sex?

I'd keep the door open to an LTR with her; but told her last night "I go slow." She'd be a good LTR catch.

 

[joekerr31]

ok a few things.

1) she isn't hold off on sex because she doesnt know you. come on dude, are you serious? if she TRULY meant that she wouldn't be giving you a blow job or letting you eat her out. its ABSURD to think that shes holding out because she needs to get ot know you more

2) the reason she is holding out is the reason they all hold out. i've said this a million times. men treat women differently after they've screwed them. well most men do anyway. if a woman is looking at you as an LTR, some will make you wait as long as possible to make sure that you are interested in them and not just getting laid.

3) shes 31, no father, no kids (im assuming). her clock is ticking and shes stasrting to envision a future all alone. . she's playing the victim role to a tee (telling you how her friends suck and how she was crying over her dad). she's setting the scenario for you to become the knight ito the rescue. she wants to get married and have kids (im assuming) - so she is taking her time with you, sucking you in (no pun intended) as much as humanly possible before giving up the goods. she wants to be 100% certain that you are emotionally addicted to her before she hits the sac with you.

this explains why being aloof or mysterious is bugging her out. she keeps waiting for that AFC moment where you show her that you can't live without her. once she sees that moment she knows she can hook you for marriage and kids and then will start sleeping with you.

4) DO NOT feel guilty about using DJ techniques on her. sounds like you are playing things fairly. you aren't lying, you aren't cheating, you aren't manipulating her hardships to get your rocks off, etc.

she on the other hand, in my opinion, (and shes doing this subconsciously) IS manipulating you. this is female tactics 101 dude. she wants to land you for the long run and is not going to use the most powerful weapon in her arsenal (ie. sex) unless she has exhausted all the others first.

5) so what do you do now?

well you've got three choices as i see it...

a. next time you are fooling around and you pull out a condom and she pulls the 'i dont know you well enough'. stop everything right there, get dressed, and then tell her 'i think we need to take a break. It's obvious you don't trust me and don't want to move this relationship to the next level. i need some time to think about all this." - basically that will send her in to panic. she will probably even start to cry and come up with all kinds of 'save a hoe' baits to get you to revert back in to captain save a hoe.

b. next time she says that just say 'what would you like to know?". then tell her all about yourself. you'll get laid and you will officially be in the start of an LTR (just make sure that is what you want).

c. say nothing and keep this melodrama up until she raises the stakes and calls a 'break' - which she will do eventually.

anyway, i always see 'no sex' as meaning one of two things:

1) her IL isn't high enough.
2) you are being an AFC and she isn't worried about losing you.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Iron Rule of Tomassi #3

Any woman who makes you wait for sex, or by her actions implies she is making you wait for sex; the sex is NEVER worth the wait.

When a woman makes you wait for sex you are not her highest priority. Sexuality is spontaneous chemical reaction between two parties, not a process of negotiation of a friendship. It's sex first, then relationship, not the other way around. A woman who wants to fukk you will fly across the country, crawl under barbwire, climb in through your second story bedroom window, fukk the sh!t out of you and wait patiently inside your closet if your wife comes home early from work - women who want to fukk will find a way to fukk.

At your age, and if you really want to, considering her conditions, develop this into an LTR use a Takeaway tactic . At the very least, you removing your unearned attention (which she's growing more and more comfortable with) will provoke a response. I think finding a woman who is unquestionably ready to go is time far better spent than trying to solve her head puzzles, but you have to make that call. I'm of the opinion that If a girl is that into you she'll fukk regardless of ASD or having her friends in the room videotaping it at a frat party.

All women can be sluts, you just have to be the right guy to bring it out in them, and this happens before you go back to her place. If you have to plead your case cuddling on the bed or getting the occasional peck on the cheek (or she goes half-way with a BJ), you need to go back to square one and start fresh. The girl who fukks a guy she just met in the foam party on spring break in Cancun is the same girl who'll tell you she's just not comfortable enough to have sex with you yet.

I’m pretty sure she’s protecting her heart by not having sex with me (she said she gets attached when she does), because well, I haven’t spilled my guts yet like most AFCs do--it's only been 6 weeks. But, by not divulging and not showing my cards, her interest level stays high but I get no sex.

You've been doing it textbook solid up to this point. However, she's not "protecting her heart", as flowery and virtuous as you'd like to give her credit - she's protecting her options. You should too.

She would be a good catch in a sea of inadequate chicks that I seem to go through.

Don't fall for the myth of the "Quality Woman." All this mindset leads to is a mental idealization that can NEVER be lived up to and inhibits you from realizing that there are a great many women in the world who would be as good, if not a beter match for you out there. This is the beginning of a Scarcity Schema.

She also says, "I can't figure you out, there's a wall here, you're hard to read" -- I'm *thinking* yeah, good.

Chick-speak Translation: "I'm used to guys vomiting out their lives' stories on the restuarant table and telling me they love me on the first date; after which I control the frame of whatever relationship I decide to engage in with them; but you're older, more mature, and are something I haven't encountered as yet, not to mention you wont play the game I want you to, so I'll withold sex from you (but still giving you BJ now and then so you don't think I'm totally frigid and move on) while simultaneously sh!t testing you into aquiescing to my frame by trying to shame you into thinking it's your fault you're not getting sex from me in not playing a game I'm familiar with; so I'll call it a 'wall' and make you think I think you're a 'hard read' in order to get you to doubt your own resolve by risking never sleeping with me."

Or something close to that,...

 

[Sinistar]

When a chick is really into you a great first guess here is an STD (sounds like that's out though).

My first comment on your entire OP was the number of times you called her LTR material! You have only known each other 6 weeks!! And part of that 6 weeks has been filled with frustration (because things haven't been flowing naturally regarding a man's needs in a relationship)!!!

Her dad recently died and she talks about him a lot. It was ove three years ago and she tells me she cried about it the other night. She complained last night that “all her friends suck” and doesn’t have much support. I just listen and give her a big hug as we lay in bed and she talks.

...I'm not sure what exactly about this statement tells me she's got issues. But it's in there somewhere. I think Joe latched onto the general tone - hoping to activate your matrix pre-programmed save-a-ho subroutine. They know this will knock you into their frame and viola - instant AFC.

I’d like to hang on to this *rare* one.

...I hate to break it to you bro, but she probably isn't as rare as you think.

I noticed my [now] wife responded noticeably differently (than many women) to the DJ style approach. She played off of it in a positive way. She never got needy or clingy. She didn't reach into an arsenal of emotional b00by traps. She didn't cut into friends or family. Nope, she just patiently kept her focus on me as I got to know her better and find out what she values, wants, expects, etc. She never bartered intimacy for control (IMO anyways) because she knew from the get-go that I don't believe in the one and the implied frame that goes with it.

Rollo's right. It's time for a takeaway. Just don't make the mistake 9/10 guys do by telling her overtly. Just spend a little less time with her and a little more with friends, family, hobbies, other plates, etc. She will either miss (and hence chase) or she'll let go. Either way you'll have your answer. And no, the takeaway is not to punish her. It's simply to force a frame reset in the direction that would help any LTR.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

It's time for a takeaway. Just don't make the mistake 9/10 guys do by telling her overtly. Just spend a little less time with her and a little more with friends, family, hobbies, other plates, etc. She will either miss (and hence chase) or she'll let go. Either way you'll have your answer. And no, the takeaway is not to punish her. It's simply to force a frame reset in the direction that would help any LTR.

Thanks SINISTAR, I meant to add that. You have to initiate a Takeaway COVERTLY and incrementally. The moment she perceives it coming as a deliberate OVERT act on your part is when she'll see it as you punishing her. A Takeaway, when done correctly, is basic behavioral conditioning psychology. Remove the reinforcer (your attention) until the desired behavior is performed, (her becoming sexual) and each time she gets closer to the desired behavior you reward her with a little more attention until she unconsciously makes the connection. It's when you draw attention to the process by OVERTLY explaining it to her (in words or behavior) that you ruin the dynamic.

 

[Interceptor]

I agree with all of the above.
And I'll also avow to having been in similar situations, and observed the behaviors given as examples.
They are correct.

One question though.
What is it exactly that you are not telling her?

She is playing it safe with you.
But I feel she's not giving because you're not.
In other words, she's not going to become vulnerable to you if you're not going to do it.
She's not comfortable enough, and you're SO secretive, too secretive for her and there's not enough rapport there, dude.
She's not going to let you in, until you've built that level of comfort, trust,and rapport.Rapport, deep rapport IS the missing element here. What every one alludes to about a woman doing anything for your sex is because there's a level of rapport there. Or wild, uncontrollable lust, but that comes form an adventurous danger seeking woman.

So she is playing it safe, just like you should be doing. But what that usually means is that more consideration must be given for the chance of a real, healthy LTR.



Anyway, I'm stating the obvious here.
But do yourself a favor, and read, and reread Rollo, Joe, and sinsitar's post again.
The only problem you may have, or conflict as it were, if you don't have the confidence to pull this off, and are not congruent.
If the DJ "techniques" you are touting yoursefl as using are still at a superficial stage, you may still have a bit of incongruency issues. And her, being a woman, will see right through them.

Don't let yourself get sucked in to her tactics or ploys.
Don't.
You'll onlyu reinforce her behavior an dgive more credence to her that she can manipulate you.
A "manipulator" is not a "Quality" woman.
She is NOT "rare" by any wild stretch of the imagination.
I'm sorry, Dash. But she's not.
That doesn't mean she's not a good woman, or that she's bad for you. But you've got to get proper perspective on this.

Protect that Heart.
And don't relapse into AFC doom.
Don't let any woman regress your progress.
For if any woman makes you regress, then she IS truly "bad for you".
Also, watch out for the reframing she is using. When she flips around the scenario and makes YOU look like the Bad Guy. She is doing it to you, dude. She will try to manipulate you to feel guilty.
Don't be forced to feel guilty for anything.

You want to be her Knight in Shining Armor? Go ahead.
But you've got to make sure YOU are gettign what YOU Want out of it!!!!
This is non negotiable! You're not a freakin' charity, bro! OK??!!
Watch out for the AFC complexes poking their heads out, and the Capt Sav a HO mentality!!


We've got the Scarcity Complex runing around here like a little gremlin, Dash.
Be honest here, bro.
I'm on your side.
But you've got to be honest here , buddy.

6 weeks???

Dude....
Take a step back.
Let out a good long belly laugh.
Then refocus what you really want out of life.
Again, dude, reread these guys' posts.
It's all true. Down to the last tiny detail.
Any more and these guys will charge you for Psychic fees!

 

[vitor]

I see this alot , I think the women who see you as Marriage Potential try to hold out or make you wait. She is seeing if you will stick around, and why your not a *****.

I think like others stated hang out with her again, try to have sex, when she says no, say ok, kiss her tell her your heading home, and dont call her for a while. She will get the hint. If she acts funny tell her how she is the only girl your dating. Explain that healthy relationships bewteen Men in Women include Mental, Physical, and Spirtual and you can't get two the last one till you have gotten to the second.

How open and caring can you be for her until you have slept together???

Start looking for other women, Im 27 so I know i have a bigger pool of women than you might feel like you do. But your still young, and said your good looking and inshape. If you have no kids, I hope you have been pocketing lots of cash throughout the years. The good times are right around the corner.

I think a vacation to South America, brazil or Colombia is in Order.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

I agree with all of the above.
And I'll also avow to having been in similar situations, and observed the behaviors given as examples.
They are correct.

One question though.
What is it exactly that you are not telling her?

She is playing it safe with you.
But I feel she's not giving because you're not.
In other words, she's not going to become vulnerable to you if you're not going to do it.
She's not comfortable enough, and you're SO secretive, too secretive for her and there's not enough rapport there, dude.
She's not going to let you in, until you've built that level of comfort, trust,and rapport.Rapport, deep rapport IS the missing element here.

Bravo, this is it.

She's playing it safe because Dash has been just too cool, too removed. Hell, does he even want anything more than just sex (speaking from her perspective).

Way too much fear on both sides. She's afraid to give up too much because she could lose out, he's afraid to let her in because he feels she may get bored; damn, I love watching the game from the outside...

It's true that with many women, if they haven't slept with you in some set amount time (take your pick, 3 dates, 3 weeks, 3 months, 3 hours, 3 minutes, whatever) she's not interested and you're on the LJBF path. But we know women, they're not all the same so why treat them that way?

Worried if she's into you? I know, you know she is but let's review things. You've been together for a decent amount of time seemingly without any major problems except this type of sex. She's been going down on you which is more intimate to most women than intercourse. So what's there to be afraid of?

L-O-S-I-N-G C-O-N-T-R-O-L !!! That's it. Dash has been going along really well, almost without any mistakes. Personally I wouldn't have asked about the sex thing but I typically don't need too because the woman has already let me know in one way or another how she feels about me sexually. They typically do because we have gone beyond simple rapport and beyond regular comfort. It's a point of intimacy where sex is a dotted line offshoot.

Dash, you think this woman could be LT potential? Stop playing the pick-up games and start managing the relationship. Like Interceptor said, she needs something and if her man can't give it to her...

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

She is playing it safe with you.
But I feel she's not giving because you're not.
In other words, she's not going to become vulnerable to you if you're not going to do it.
She's not comfortable enough, and you're SO secretive, too secretive for her and there's not enough rapport there, dude.
She's not going to let you in, until you've built that level of comfort, trust,and rapport.

I disagree. Desire and chemical attraction come from discomfort and an anxiety for gratification - NEVER from negotiation. This is exactly the myth that guys who play friends with a woman entertain after a LJBF. They mistakenly believe that they can negotiate with a woman, meet a certain set of criteria and she'll be genuinely desirous of them. Only very rarely does this happen and when it does, as I originally stated, the sex is never worth the wait because it's the result of negotiating an agreement and motivated by a sense of obligation, not bourne from a physical, urgent desire.

This woman is fillibustering DASH with a very predictable tactic - he is simply not her first priority. I don't know what her personal situation is, but my guess is her hesitation isn't coming from a comfort level so much as she's weighing her own options with other potential LTRs. Considering her age and where most women are at this stage of life, I'd suspect she's prone to securing the best man her looks will afford to be a long term provider. She's on the fence with DASH, because he's not playing a familiar game and he ought to keep it up and outlast her fillibuster. She'll give him just enough sexual pleasure (i.e the occasional BJ) to be a carrot for him to pull her cart and this implies a bribe significant enough to keep him hooked. Once he does a Takeaway this will send the message that nothing less than her 100%, genuine, physical desire will make the difference for him.

A wild Mustang makes a fantastic horse, but first you've got to break them.

 

[Interceptor]

Rollo, you always make sense, and I respect your views.
But I still stand by my assertion that she's just not feeling comfortable enough with what she feels is a 'stranger'.
I agree with all that you stated previously, but I aslo include my angle into the situation as well.
She doesn't trust him enough, because the guy is playing it TOO "cool".
Rollo, Dash isn't giving her much information to go on, and while she is trying to manipulate him, the security issue still stands. He's still in "stranger" phase with her, not enough rapport.
Is she sexually desirous of him?
Yes.
But she's looking for a sure thing. Security. Trust. Comfort. Rapport.
She's not out just looking to get laid.

She's on the fence with him because of the many reasons we stated, but the fact remains that she is just not comfortable enough with him at this point.

Some women are like this.
Some are not.
Some need more rapport than others.
Others simply go for with gut, their sexual desire.



Anyway, I agree on practically everything you stated.

 

[Dash Riprock]

Some good words here boys -- I appreciate the feedback.

Interceptor: I haven't really denied her any information, just been kind of vague in my answers. I haven't exactly volunteered a lot of info either.

Personally, I feel the first 60 days are golden so I try to set the ground rules etc., & maintain high interest level during that time. This means not divulging too much about myself, saying focused on her, keeping things light and fun, limited communication in-between dates.

Scarcity Complex--maybe some, I'll admit. I knew her for about a year before we started dating; I was in an LTR, then took about 4 mos off of ALL dating, and felt the time was right a few weeks back and asked her out. Comparing her to what I've been dating the past few years, she simply has more of what I look for.

I'm not pining to get into an LTR, but with the right person would consider it, as "3 and out" dating get boring after a while.

Some thoughts have been validated and new info provided. I'm going to take a bit of time to hash this through.

DR

 

[jophil28]

You ever been in the Supermarket and come across those demonstrating ladies who are set up behind a little "lemonade stand" thing and they have those little plastic tubs with some free samples of yoghurt or mediteranean dip or whatever. You get a LITTLE of the merchandise for free to entice you to go and PAY for a pack of the real thing . Read this again -you get a free sample to acquaint you with the taste of the product to entice you to BUY the whole pack. THis is a legit marketing tactic in the commercial world.
Question is - are you OK with the same tactic being used in the bedroom ?

The Bjs are the free samples.

 

[Interceptor]

OK, cool, Dash.
Good job in maintaining the program. Commendable really.
But ultimately you have to decide for yourself if you're willing to 'negotiate'.
Because what we have here is a "failure to communicate".
It's just not to her liking. She's not used to it. As you have already realized.
IMHO a good, healthy LTR means that both parties are getting their "needs' met, not just their wants, but their needs. One of her needs may just be more intimacy, and rapport, so she coudl feel comfortable becoming vulnerable to you,. Dash.
Think about it. I think you may not go total AFC on us, but yeah, you do have a razor's edge of a line to walk on, my friend.

Rollo makes some very good points here about this.
So think it over very, very carefully.


Dash, keep us posted on this.
There's a lot of material here, a wealth of information that many men need to know.
Good luck.

 

[Interceptor]

You ever been in the Supermarket and come across those demonstrating ladies who are set up behind a little "lemonade stand" thing and they have those little plastic tubs with some free samples of yoghurt or mediteranean dip or whatever. You get a LITTLE of the merchandise for free to entice you to go and PAY for a pack of the real thing . Read this again -you get a free sample to acquaint you with the taste of the product to entice you to BUY the whole pack. THis is a legit marketing tactic in the commercial world.
Question is - are you OK with the same tactic being used in the bedroom ?

The Bjs are the free samples.

Absolutely true.
Many women don't even consider a BJ 'real sex". So no guilt factor with it.

 

[Nighthawk]

'So far it's all been oral.'

Hmmm... have you actually ejaculated in, on or near her? And who is paying for the dates?


To paraphrase Rollo, don't confuse cock-teasers with quality women.