RANT: guy "friends" - ARRRGGH!!

[jophil28]

Yeah, exactly. I told her to not hang around dudes (and bars) so much, and she'll have better relationships with men. She responsded with the usual garbage about "trust" and refused to even listen/understand.

Let me give you a little advice from a seasoned campaigner. Do not waste your energy in giving women a "lecture" or a "sermon". They are NEVER wrong, so your speech does not have any impact.
See how she turned it around on you by suggesting that you have "trust " issues. The 'switch and blame game' is one of their favorite escape routes.
The only tiny hope that you have to change a woman's bad behavior is to make her HURT as a consequence. The way to do it is to withdraw your attention ( you did that), and then let her know that she does not measure up.
I have a pre- prepared sentence at the ready for just such an occasion as yours. It can be delivered in person, or by phone, preferably in an icy tone.

" I have high standards, you do not meet them."

That is all you need to say. If she has any real IL in you she will scramble to re-qualify herself with you .
Instead, she and you are presently caught up in valueless bickering. Stop that.

( BTW. this one sentence is your last howitzer round. YOu can only fire this ONCE per woman ,)

 

[horaholic]

I have to tell a quick related story:

I hung out with a chick for two nights. Night two, we go back to my place at two or three am, cuz she just wanted to keep "partying," and we are in my bed, I have her half naked and making out, and she kept getting texts from guy friends, and would actually stop making out, to answer her texts SEVERAL TIMES! AT 3 IN THE MORNING! While my penis was VERY close to being inserted into her vagina. A bit frustrating to say the least! I ended up not even banging her! For the better actually, she ended up moving two doors down from me, and since then, she quit being such a party girl. Funny.

 

[rocco]

maybe she thought the bar was more fun than sushi.

maybe if you brought some friends, and went to bar to see her, and had a great time that would of worked out better for you.

 

[window]

After some thought I think you did the right thing by not picking her up at the bar. The AFC would have gone out of his way to pick her up, take her to sushi (after she convinced him to have a quick beer with her male friends) then got him to take her back to the bar after a quick half hour dinner. One thing I've learnt though as Str8up has said is instead of nexting her straight away to just leave your options open whilst at the same time not coming across as being affected by her behaviour. So in this case you could have just said...'look I'm not prepared to go out of my way to pick you up at the bar so maybe another time" what this does I think is put you in a flexible position whereby you've told her what behaviour you consider intolerable and you can either call her at a later time or just forget her all together. She may also call you and say let me make it up to you.

 

[betterthandead]

I applaud your actions, another man would've sissied it up. She didn't sound like much of a catch anyway.

 

[betterthandead]

What's to expect? You're trying to know someone one on one in the first couple of dates.

On another note, you've only had one date with this girl so I think it is a bit much to expect her not to have an y guy friends at that stage.

 

[rocco]

I went on a first date with this girl to play pool at a bar. Coincidently she knew the bartender and was chatting him up a lot, and it was hard to switch her attention. It got late and I wanted to leave, but she still wanted to stay. So in the end, I told I was going to go, and she was like "it's okay, the bartender guy will take me home" nudge nudge wink wink *sexual innuendo*

I could of easily tripped because of this and gotten jealous but I was pretty tired so I went home and passed out. The next day, I call her up, and ask her if she wanted to continue "us" and basically I'm setting the frame where I am qualifying her while remaining nice and respectful. To put a long story short, we then met up and I fucted her that night.

So moral of the story is, I didn't even have the time to post a thread on this forum for advice on this particular situation because it happened in the span of one and a half days. But basically I just tried to stay cool and go with the flow while keeping mystery method in the back of my mind and it worked.

BUT

In your situation, I think I would had just gone to the bar SIMPLY because she is with a bunch of guys and I wouldnt want to stay home with the thought of her possibly going home with one of those guys instead of with me. I could totally think of some conversations that could had gone on with her and those guys at the bar after I chose not to go.. like.. she say's "Aww, my date canceled on me" and the other guy is like, "Aww he is the one who missed out on someone special, I guess we could go on a date instead right now" yadda yadda

Perhaps it is like playing a game of poker and calling a woman's bluff, folding, or going all in sometimes.

2 cents

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

I think she's stupid.

I think Rollo makes a great point. But usually, that sort of calculation, in my opinion, usually comes into play a bit after a first date.

I'm gonna say its a combination of all three (stupidity, lack of interest, manipulation).

The manipulation comes naturally. She doesn't even know she is doing it.

The lack of interest and stupidity go hand in hand. If her interest were higher, I would bet she wouldn't be as "dumb".

Reasonably attractive women simply have a lot of options, and unless you can make yourself the main object of her desire, you are more or less at the mercy to things like this with many women.

As I said in my prior post; don't make the mistake of seeing her coordinating social proof for herself as stupid or fickle. The contrivance of the Feminine Mystique only works better for a woman when a guy gets frustrated to the point that he throws up his hands and thinks 'women are stupid!' For the most part they aren't, but if you write them off as fickle or duplicitous (go look it up) the Feminine Mystique only works better at making them unknowable, and by association, excusable, if not forgivable. And thus the technique of creating triangles or prompting social proof (in the feminine) stokes competition anxiety. If you blow her off in disgust, the Feminine Mystique and it's associations still linger into other experiences you have with new women.

One common technique that PUA/DJs use in their game is DHV - demonstrating higher value. Creating intentional, yet covert, triangles is one such method. This is actually a foundation of Plate Theory; you derive confidence from acknowledging your options and/or your ability to generate new ones. Even in the archived Plate Theory thread I mention that women are natural "Plate Theorists". Playing one (or many) suitor off the next is commonplace and encouraged. Trying to make a guy jealous is almost a rite of passage for women at some point.

If SOCAL MIKE's girl were a guy practicing Plate Theory, I'd run him up the flagpole for being far too overt in his approach. Call it a double standard, but women (particularly attractive ones) can more easily be excused of this because the promise of her sexuality will make most guys tolerate her blatant manipulations. Her sin is being too obvious, but again, she's not stupid. You don't think she knows she's hot? At 30 it's probably been reinforced for her for over 12 years. She knows what she's doing, so you have to know how to counter it if you intend to game her. There are ways to do this, but you first have to address your own reasons for doing so.

If you're after an LTR, then I agree with JOPHIL - don't bother. This woman at her stage in life is not what you're looking for. Time and declining sexual value may teach her some humility, but even if it does, a woman like this will relish the memories of when she commanded such attention in her youth well into her LTR/childrearing days, making her genuine interest always suspect for any guy engaging her. That's not to say a Man of sufficient character couldn't master such a woman, but if you lack the interest, patience and necessary determination to maintain the frame with such a woman, your efforts are better spent elsewhere. The Man who holds her interest is going to be the one who himself commands the attention of many women, and enjoys status amongst men.

 

[Mr. Me]

My thinking is, whether it's a strategy on her part to attract you or that she craves male attention, the bottom line is what she does. But since you don't have much time in with the gal being that you hadn't even been out on a date yet, you file it in your mind and see what else happens.

So I think your idea to do that, to see how it all pans out, is the right idea.

Yeah, I replied. I told her she hangs out with other guys too much, and that I didn't want to pick my date up from a bar. Bye.

She responded with "well that's too bad because if there's no trust we don't have anything" and more nonsense about how people at the bar missed her, were worried because she was gone for months, etc.

I told her that it's not about trust, it's about me not wanting dudes who want to bang her (and who I don't know) constantly around her, being touchy feely. I mean, she wouldn't want me hanging out with girls all the time I'm sure. Fvcking hypocrite.

And that's how it ended.

I ditto Jophil. When you get into arguing with a woman, that's her game.

There's this gal I know of in my profession, and she blogs personal things about her and her husband. She's crazy about him. When she writes about interactions with her husband, I note how he handles her. She seems to be a bit of a spoiled princess. When he doesn't like something she's doing, he never flat out directly tells her so. He gives her a weird look or questions her with something funny by extrapolating what she's doing to its logical conclusion (without ridiculing or insulting her). In effect, he makes his stance known without confrontation. That seems to trigger her to change her mind or change whatever she's doing that he doesn't like, and also seems to keep her from losing interest in him, since they don't really argue.

So instead of coming across as insecure, jealous, controlling, untrusting, uptight or whatever, you can choose to come across as calm, cool and collected - and send the message more effectively.

To me, this behavior would have been disrespectful if you had been dating a while. But quite frankly, she owes you nothing at this stage. You went out once, and the world doesn't revolve around you.

True, yet, that kind of excuses her behavior. Better, I think, to have the viewpoint that, people will do what they're going to do, but we don't have to accept any behavior we find personally to be disrespectful. For example, say someone had a bad day. I can understand them acting lousy if they did, but that's still not an excuse for taking it out on me, right? So in a manner of speaking, the world has to revolve around ourselves, because it's our life, not anyone else's, that we're the caretaker of.

 

[ZenGodMod]

Why some amount of us want to defend the actions of this woman is because they are thinking for a lay, and could if they knew how to make her qualify.

But...
It doesn't prevent the fact that she is not ltr material. She's at an age where she either goes for gold or goes for ego. Her ego has won over her even if she proves to have the qualities of a good women, she herself is not ready to let go of that ego trip. Socal has done a good thing because the bigger picture leads to a disaster even if the sex is assured.