Problems with disrespect from wife

Rollo Tomassi

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My money is on the wife getting her 5 minutes of Alpha on her "last gig" with the guitar player. Anyone want odds?

I do have some other questions for HERO though:

How old are you?

She was 23 when you married, how long did you date before this?

How did you meet her?

Is she the only woman you've ever had sex with?

What is her family like?

You mention your kids are 5 and 7, meaning the first was born when she was 33. In the 10 years before you had kids what was your marriage / relationship like?

Does she have a regular group of girlfriends she talks with? If so how many are single, married, divorced?

You mention she just got into singing less than 2 years ago. Has she always been a singer or is this something new for her?
 

Rollo Tomassi

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Ultimatums are declarations of powerlessness.

Whenever a person is driven to the point of saying or implying, "you'd better or else" they are telling you that you hold power over them. When you aquiesce to an ultimatum, not only do you hand that power to them, you overtly confirm this transfer of power for them and yourself. Unless you are powerless to avoid an ultimatum, always deny them, because you will certainly be powerless otherwise. A relationship built on the foundation of an ultimatum isn't a relationship; it is mutually acknowledged blackmail.

Always remember the Cardinal Rule of Relationships:

In any relationship, whether personal, business or familial, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.
 

Nemic

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Rollo Tomassi said:
Always remember the Cardinal Rule of Relationships:

In any relationship, whether personal, business or familial, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least.
I've never read that before but one of my personal mottos I have used for years is

Whoever cares the least in a relationship has the most power.

But after reading that Cardinal rule, it seems much more accurate.
 

5string

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PairPlusRoyalFlush said:
I have like no experience with this sort of thing, but I would think you should apologize for being so insecure, and tell her that you trust her completely. Then give off every signal known to man that you are cheating on her :box: The more she wonders "why the change of heart" the better.
Pretty good advice PPRF!

But, bottom line is that hero needs to decide that if she cheated with Van Halen, he's willing to keep her. If he can't live with the thought of it, he needs to confirm it or rule it out.

Then he needs to decide to get rid of her or work through it.
 

cordoncordon

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I've stayed out of this thread and tried not to say anything, but I have to say this. So many of you are acting all high and mighty, telling him what he should and should not do, most of that involves divorce/hiding his money/preparing to leave etc. Hello??? This man has been married to this woman for 17 years. 17 years!!!!! Some of you guys freak out over a problem you are having with your gf of 2 months! And you are giving that kind of advice (divorce) to a guy who has shared every day of his life with this woman for the last 17 years?? And they have kids together? Most of us cannot relate to that. Most of us have no clue as to where this guy is coming from. It's very easy to tell this guy that his wife is fvcking the dude, or he should divorce her, but go be in a marriage for that long and than tell him that.

I'm not even saying his wife isn't cheating. Hell she could be. From what I can read of this, she probably isn't, but ya never really know. And I congratulate the OP for starting to remove his head from the sand and stand up for himself. I know that no wife of mine, or gf for that matter, is going to be hanging out with some guy like this guys wife is. Especially a wife with children. But he let it happen and now he is paying for it. But I really think that until we have definitive proof that this guys wife really did cheat, we should come up with some more constructive ways for this guy to deal with this in SAVING THE MARRIAGE rather than all of the ways he should plan for divorce. He obviously still loves her, still wants to be with her, wants to save his family....lets find ways to make it work, instead of destroying it.

PS: I realize some of you have done that (come up with ways to save the marriage).....thank you.
 

5string

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Saving a marriage is a good thing CC. I agree with you. Heck, I was married for 25 yrs and could'nt save that one. But I still say he needs to know what truly has happened so HE can decide if HE wants to save it. I would not wish to be in his shoes and make such a decision.

Best of luck and life to hero.
 

heroshima

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Dang, the pendulum is swinging back and fast. She was all apologetic this morning saying "I'm sorry you've had to distance yourself from me".

I'm 95% sure she hasn't cheated on my sexually (but there's still room for doubt). I do feel cheated on emotionally and I know she is wrapped up in the guitarist.

I apologized for the ultimatum because I realized that the only thing that would do is create more resentment and probably make her move toward the guitarist (or another john) more quickly. It has bought me time and it has already put her off balance. She's thanked me for it but I can see the wheels turning in her head as I am much more happy, looking good from working out and dropping hints that I've been talking to other women.

I've been doing a lot of mental imagery work of removing her from my picture of life. That's helping a lot.

More information:
Actually, we have been together 17 years and married for 14.

We met in college and were friends for about 4 years. Dated once or twice before we actually got serious with each other.

She is not the first woman I have slept with and I am not the first man she's slept with. We had both a few steady relationships as well as numerous flings.

Most of her friends that live in our town that she hangs our with are married. A few are divorced.

She has done some singing her whole life since catholic school when she was a kid. I was actually in a band as a singer when we met. We have sung a few times together (mostly at a couple weddings) but its been pretty sparse until about 2 years ago. She took some singing classes at a local music school for about a year and a half. She decided she wanted to do some more singing and looked for guitar players to sing with. She found the one she's singing with and things took off which is when I started having issues with how she was treating me and our relationship.

The 10 years we were together before we had kids were good. We had times of clashing with each other but have continually grown closer to each other. Our sex life has pretty much always been great. She likes sex and I like sex with her. It has been a little too much on her terms but because she likes it there has usually been enough for me.

We've also been somewhat of a model relationship for a number of people around us. We've always had good communication between us and our friends notice how we are able to work things out.

This is one of the parts that is really bothersome. I have been using those communication skills this whole time in talking about my discomfort with the situation. I know now that I shouldn't have been talking and I should have been taking action.

Having kids with her has also been a good thing. In times of struggle with having new kids we grew closer together. We have been a really good team.
But like I said in earlier posts, I let her take the lead when we had kids (cuz, I didn't really know what to do with babies in the house) and I guess I have stayed in the backseat since then. Even though I have improved myself through exercise and advancing my career during the last few years.

I have asked her why she has tested me and our relationship so severely in the past 5 months since she's been playing with this guitarist and she has honestly replied "I don't know". I don't think she knows what she is doing. Her body is making decisions not her mind.

jophil28 made this excellent observation which I think is really the crux of it:
jophil28 said:
Unfortuntately her "strength" transformed itself into a force that effortlessly propelled her into placing herself first and achieving her own ego needs ahead of her committment to you as her husband.
She knew that she was "the strong one" for all those years of marriage. That is why she was willing to risk the health and future of her marriage to you. She knew(at some level)that if it all fell apart she would survive.
IF you left she would still have the children, alimony and guitar hero on the side.
You would be screwed and she was on her way to "self realization" with the courts help.
And the winner is ...!
 
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logic1

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heroshima said:
Our sex life has pretty much always been great. She likes sex and I like sex with her. It has been a little too much on her terms but because she likes it there has usually been enough for me.
A few questions.

Has your sex life changed since she started hanging with guitar man?

Does she invite you to attend her gigs?
 

heroshima

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logic1 said:
A few questions.

Has your sex life changed since she started hanging with guitar man?

Does she invite you to attend her gigs?
Not really, except for the last month since I've been telling her that there's a problem, we've continued to have sex and she's been into it. But I was the one that essentially turned off the sex. We have still had sex about once a week even in the last month.

Yes, she invites me and all our friends to her gigs. Our kids have even been to a couple.
 

cordoncordon

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heroshima said:
and dropping hints that I've been talking to other women.
IMO this is not a path you want to go down. This is your wife, the mother of your children, not some wh0re you've been fvcking for the past few months.

What she did was wrong, that doesn't mean you have to do the same.
 

Peace and Quiet

If you currently have too many women chasing you, calling you, harassing you, knocking on your door at 2 o'clock in the morning... then I have the simple solution for you.

Just read my free ebook 22 Rules for Massive Success With Women and do the opposite of what I recommend.

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And you will be able to relax and to live your life in peace and quiet.

Bible_Belt

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heroshima said:
we've continued to have sex and she's been into it.

That would be evidence of her not cheating. If she were to cheat, then she'd probably still have sex with you, but it would be robotic and passionless.
 

heroshima

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cordoncordon said:
IMO this is not a path you want to go down. This is your wife, the mother of your children, not some wh0re you've been fvcking for the past few months.

What she did was wrong, that doesn't mean you have to do the same.
I thought that part of upping my value and turning the tables was letting her know that she can be replaced.

I haven't been overt about it just stuff like "This mom at the McDonalds play area was talking about a park near the hospital. Do you know the one she's talking about?"

I'm just realizing that I've been being a "good boy" and not talking to women much at all while she has gone and made a VERY good friend of this single male guitarist.
 

5string

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Bible_Belt said:
That would be evidence of her not cheating. If she were to cheat, then she'd probably still have sex with you, but it would be robotic and passionless.
This is a good point. After thinking about it, I agree with BB. I sure hope so for hero.
 

zekko

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Regarding this:
heroshima said:
Had a great conversation with a cute mom in a McDonald's play area tonight when I took my kids there. She was giving me tons of openings like "yeah, I don't really have any friends outside of work. I wish I knew more people to hang out with".
And this:
Falcon25 said:
Second, when she started getting the hots for this guy, all of a sudden, you have a blonde that is calling you or texting. Nothing, nothing, flames a relationship like a woman scorned and jealous.
What is an appropriate interaction in this case? You guys are telling him he should be flirting and having women calling him. Texting is pretty harmless.
Should he have "number closed" the woman at McDonalds? She seemed to be hinting at it.

If you're telling him to actively pursue a woman for a female "friendship", that seems like an iffy path to go down. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it may lead to the "friend" having feelings for him, etc. Or does the fact that his wife crossed the line already make it okay for him? Should he effectively start trying to "date" women on a platonic basis?
 

cordoncordon

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heroshima said:
I thought that part of upping my value and turning the tables was letting her know that she can be replaced.

I haven't been overt about it just stuff like "This mom at the McDonalds play area was talking about a park near the hospital. Do you know the one she's talking about?"

I'm just realizing that I've been being a "good boy" and not talking to women much at all while she has gone and made a VERY good friend of this single male guitarist.
Ok no problem with that. I do that kind of stuff all the time with my gf. Tease her, tell her how this hot girl was staring at me, how she wants me, or I'll comment on a hot girl i see walking by, all in a teasing manner with a smile. That way they know you are the king, and always ready to search for something new if need be, and that you would be successful. Just dont start playing games out of the blue, saying how this girl or that girl was hitting on you point blank...your wife will read right through that.

BTW these are all things you should have been doing throughout your marriage.
 

Falcon25

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This marriage is over in less than seven months. I don't care even if he had to hire actresses to play the role of other women interested in him. He has made severe mistakes. She has, and will continue, to have sex with other men. I had sex with a married woman last year, I know exactly what she's doing. She has the cards, and she knows how to use them. She's a smart one. By the way, even if she has sex with him everyday, it still doesn't subside her craving another man's covk. What subsides that is FEAR.

You will see a divorce thread from him before the Summer, if not, he will find out she is cheating and will KEEP her for the sake of children. Just like the married woman I banged and her husband. This man needs a complete change of character. He needs to go in the bathroom, look in the mirror, and spit on the mirror, for being a weak man. He should read my first post over and over again if he wants to save his marriage. She is playing this guy like you won't believe. Why did she all of a sudden say "okay, you win, I won't see him"? Because she understood that he is finally figuring this all out. The fuvking ***** that she is. What 40 yr old woman pursues a singing career with a single man while she has two kids at home? The one that craves a strange covk.


Women never lie. They can lie to you with words, but can never lie in their actions. They're not savy as us men. Men try to rationalize women's bad behavior. They say things like "it's her hobby, she's just doing this because of..... or because of......" what they don't understand is her ACTIONS. There is no reason on this God's green earth why a 40 yr old married woman should be out late at night with a single man. Especially if she had two kids at home. WAKE THE FUVK UP!
 

Rollo Tomassi

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A woman's imagination is the single most useful tool in your Game arsenal. Every technique, every casual response, every gesture, intimation and subcommunication hinges on stimulating her imagination. Competition anxiety relies on it. DHV relies on it. Sexual tension (gina tingles) relies on it.

This is the single greatest failing of average frustrated chumps; they vomit out everything about themselves, divulging the full truth of themselves to women in the mistaken belief that women desire that truth as a basis for qualifying for their intimacy. Learn this now: Women NEVER want full disclosure. Nothing is more self-satisfying for a woman than to think she's figured a Man out based solely on her feminine intuition (i.e. imagination).

When a man overtly confirms his character, his story, his value, etc. for a woman, the mystery is dispelled and the bio-chemical rush she enjoyed from her imaginings, her suspicions, her self-confirmations about you are GONE. AFCs classically do exactly this on the first date and wonder why they get LJBF'd promptly after it - this is why. Familiarity is anti-seductive. Nothing kills Game, lust and libido like comfortable familiarity. Despite their common bleating filibuster tactics, women don't want to be comfortable with a potential sex partner, they need their imaginations stoked to be excited, aroused and anxious to want sex with a potential partner.

In an LTR/Marriage there's an even more critical need to keep prodding that imagination. I would go so far as to say it's imperative for a healthy relationship, but then you'll ask, how do you go about that when your LTR GF or wife already knows your story and the familiarity becomes cemented in?

The easy answer is never let it be from the outset - the health of any LTR you might entertain depends and survives on the frame you enter into it with. The foundations of a healthy LTR are laid while you're single and dating non-exclusively. I've yet to meet the guy who's told me he's getting more frequent, more intense sex after his LTR / Marriage / Live-in situation was established. The primary reason for this is the relaxation of the competition anxiety that made ƒucking you with lustful abandon in your dating phase an urgent imperative to get you to commit to her frame. And that's the crux of the matter that so many guys fail in, they surrender the frame BEFORE they commit to an LTR. They believe, (thanks to their Matrix conditioning) that commitment is synonymous with acquiescing to her frame control. Combine this with anti-seductive familiarity (something HERO is now experiencing first hand) and the growing commonness of your own value because of it, and you can see exactly why her sexual interest wanes.

So what do you do to prevent that? First and foremost, understand that whose frame you enter into an LTR sets the foundation of that LTR. If you find yourself buying into an "it's women's world and we just live in it" mentality where your default presumption is that commitment means she wins, you lose and that's just how it is - don't even consider an LTR. She enters your world, not the other way around.

Secondly, you need to cultivate an element of unpredictability about yourself prior to, and into, an LTR. Always remember POOK's proverb, Perfect is BORING. This is why 5 minutes of Alpha trumps 5 years of Beta. Women will cry a river about wanting Mr. Dependable and then go off to ƒuck Mr. Exciting. In an LTR it's necessary to be both, but not one at the expense of the other. Too many married men are TERRIFIED to rock the excitement boat with their wives because their sex lives hang in the balance of placating to her and her already preset frame. She must be reminded daily why you're fun, unpredictable and exciting, not only to her, but other women as well. Nothing confirms Alpha cred like having your wife's girlfriends admit their attraction to you. This requires covertly implying that other women find you desirable. Women crave the chemical rush that comes from suspicion and indignation. If you don't provide it, they'll happily get it from tabloids, romance novels, The View, Tyra Banks or otherwise living vicariously through their single girlfriends. In the prolonged absence of excitement women will find it or create it for themselves (i.e. singing in band with a hot guitarist at age 40)

By playfully staying her source of that rush you maintain the position of stimulating her imagination. Married men, who were defeated before they committed, don't think that elements of Game apply to marriage out of fear of upsetting their wives frame, when in fact C&F and Negs and many other aspects work wonderfully. Just kicking her in the ass or busting her chops, playfully, is sometimes enough to send the message that you're fearless of her response. You can break her frame with ****iness and the imaginings that come with it.

Breaking from an established, predictable familiarity is often a great way to fire her imagination. Married guys will report how sexual their wives become after they get to the gym and start shaping up after a long layoff (or for the first time). It's easy to pass this off as looking better makes women more aroused (which is true), but underneath that is the breaking of a pattern. You're controllable and predictable so long as you're pudgy and listless - what other woman would want you? But start changing your patterns, get into shape, make more money, get a promotion, improve and demonstrate your higher value in some appreciable way and the imagination and competition anxiety returns.
 

Boilermaker

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Emailed this to my psychiatrist brother ( who is 33 ) and happily married.

His first response was, "holy fvck, this guy's a genius!"

He invites you to give a seminar in adult psychiatry to the University of Maryland Rollo :D
 

Rollo Tomassi

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Heheh, well either I'm genius or it's a pretty sad testament to the state of understanding modern psychiatry has about intergender dynamics.

Invitation accepted. :whistle:
 

davewe

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I agree

Thanks for this, CC.

SS is a great site for dating, getting back to dating after a breakup, understanding women, etc. but marital problems - get real.

If the OP had said he was breaking up from a long marriage and what should he do to move forward in his life, this would be the place. But he clearly would like to save his marriage. At 17 years, the OP has had far more success that 99% of the men here (my own 13 years included).

That being said, there's been a lot of good advice in this thread; surprisingly good. But Hero, you need more support than you can get from a site like this.

At this risk of getting flamed, I would encourage Hero to seek professional counseling/therapy. Not necessarily couples therapy, though I'm not completely opposed to that. BTW, most couples therapy fails not because it's inately bad but because by the time most couples enter therapy their relationship is on fumes and unable to survive.

No, I would encourage the OP to seek professional counsel from a guy not associated with a dating website. Whether or not your marriage survives, you are going to need advice or at least a neutral ear.

Good luck.


cordoncordon said:
I've stayed out of this thread and tried not to say anything, but I have to say this. So many of you are acting all high and mighty, telling him what he should and should not do, most of that involves divorce/hiding his money/preparing to leave etc. Hello??? This man has been married to this woman for 17 years. 17 years!!!!! Some of you guys freak out over a problem you are having with your gf of 2 months! And you are giving that kind of advice (divorce) to a guy who has shared every day of his life with this woman for the last 17 years?? And they have kids together? Most of us cannot relate to that. Most of us have no clue as to where this guy is coming from. It's very easy to tell this guy that his wife is fvcking the dude, or he should divorce her, but go be in a marriage for that long and than tell him that.

I'm not even saying his wife isn't cheating. Hell she could be. From what I can read of this, she probably isn't, but ya never really know. And I congratulate the OP for starting to remove his head from the sand and stand up for himself. I know that no wife of mine, or gf for that matter, is going to be hanging out with some guy like this guys wife is. Especially a wife with children. But he let it happen and now he is paying for it. But I really think that until we have definitive proof that this guys wife really did cheat, we should come up with some more constructive ways for this guy to deal with this in SAVING THE MARRIAGE rather than all of the ways he should plan for divorce. He obviously still loves her, still wants to be with her, wants to save his family....lets find ways to make it work, instead of destroying it.

PS: I realize some of you have done that (come up with ways to save the marriage).....thank you.
 
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