Point to Having Kids?

[A-Unit]

Re:

Back on-topic...the one thought that REALLY discourages me from having kids is the cost of a college education.

Regardless of what you think about institutionalized education, people just don't take you seriously in this world unless you've got at least a Bachelors degree. Paying college tuition/fees/books, though, is like a second mortgage.

You need a certain kind of affluence to be able to afford to raise a kid, afford to send it to college, and still live any kind of life for yourself.

---------------------

That was the one that astound me, too, until I really dug down and thought about it. I met some people that home school their children, who are in fact, more 'well-rounded' than the locals who attend our over-populated high school and are just as confused. Moreover, schools have already cut most arts and crafts programs, such as computers, crafts, home ec, art, wood-working, technology, etc, what will happen as state and federal deficits widen?

Children will have to decide between a technical school, home schooling, private school, or your generic public school. If I couldn't foot the bill, I'd consider HSing or tech school, at least then it's a balance of Hands-On activity and thought-provoking activity.

But as we know at SS, school that largely isn't paid for is intended to indoctrinate you in this system, make you addicted and dependent on it and prolong its very life. This is why most people are literally insane and cannot be reasoned with -- they have never developed the mental faculties of critical, logical, analytical thought. The word OBJECTIVE isn't in their vocabulary. Most people are so 'attached' to the idea or concept of who they might be and their upbringing they won't change (and can't). QUE MORPHEUS.

Seriously though. Meet any 50 year old and they are so assured of the world and who they are, unless they are having a midlife crisis, it is a losing proposition to talk to them about anything non-pop culture.

Knowing what I know now?

There's scholarships and grants available for kids who want the money, but the kids have to PUSH themselves and if you put your kid in a given school, know when they are 14 what the big picture is. I suppose that might sound twisted since alot of us ****ed around during HS, but looking forward decades, our country won't be any easier on kids and kids are already growing up with stunted maturity and dumber than past generations.

The kids who hit the top 10% of a class, which really isn't that hard, normally get plenty of cash to attend universities, especially the top 1's, which have HUGE endowment funds, some more sustainable than most pension funds and WAY more stable than SS! I suppose you have to indoctrinate your kids into TRUSTING YOU and this is where you impart the "SS system of life" into your household, so your kid is supplementing his education with what you spin, the books you read or wish you read and teachings here.

Think of it like a time-machine - if you could go back and impart knowledge to your past self, what would it be? Begin building a library that you would give to them should you die. Congregate your thoughts in a journal. Etch your legacy of yourself, a sort of "Squirrels Manual" or "Backbreaker Manual."

Make them self-sufficient early on and education becomes irrelevant, just as it was for Steve Jobs and Bill gates. I'm sure MANY of our wealthiest individuals were able to play as kids and explore their passions, which is what drove them to greatness. They didn't follow the SCHOOL plan, rather SCHOOL was a tool for them to achieve their desired aims. So for Gates or Jobs, they were able to get into ivy league schools, meet and network with those who would make them even more successful and realized THEY could teach the ivy leagues something. Maybe not everyone can be billionaires, but certainly BB has proven millionaires and I believe anyone can become a millionaire, EASILY, in this country...but it means...

- not having the luxuries that are actually NECESSITIES in this country, or vice versa - what you buy/consume should be toward your ultimate goal - those are the sacrifices that you will read about the biographies of the greatest people who ever lived.
- committing to the goal, to any end, so there's 'no time off.'
- being financially savy.

Because I also believe if you aren't financially savy in this country, then you become a slave to it, sadly.

I would love to have kids, if the right woman appeared or was found.

A-Unit

- GL to see BB and Squirrels up in here!

 

[grinder]

So, it seems that anytime someone tries to give me advice, I suddenly get it from a bunch of people by the truckloads.

This past week I got a LOT of comments from different people in my life about "avoiding having children".

As I'm approaching my year #30, it seems that there are a lot of men out there, my age, that are desperate to engage in a marriage and children. The question is: Why?

I was basically told by someone really close to me, to wait and hold out as long as I could, and if possible, to NEVER have kids if it can be avoided and if I could be with someone who agreed with such a viewpoint. The person that said this to me, has kids, loves the kids, but said that the many reasons they've heard over the years as to why to have kids, is pretty much BS. Here are some of the things I've heard for having kids:

(1) To be able to continue to leave some sort of legacy
(2) To have someone to take care of you when you are much older
(3) To give meaning to your life

I'ev heard others, but those 3 seemed to be the most consistent.
Now, I've been left baffled, because quite frankly, each of those three can be debunked easily. Maybe it's because I've yet to have a kid of my own, but why is it considered important to leave a legacy behind? I don't understand the point to this. Isn't the legacy we leave behind... just OUR LIVES and not the children we leave behind?

As for point #2, it was discussed that with the money you save from NOT having kids over the course of your life, you could easily hire a personal nurse when you get older. I never thought of NOT having kids as "Savings" but it makes perfect sense to me. Every year parents spend thousands upon thousansd on their children... and not that they regret it, but how many of these parents engage in this purposefully?

And point #3 was just kind of sad. Do we really need children to give meaning to our lives? Can't we do that by ourselves?


I apologize if my post comes across as apparent negativity towards having kids, but it just seems like there is no "benefit" to having children on purpose. More and more I just see cases of unwanted pregnancies and mistakes and accidents.

Is there anyone on this board that actually PLANNED out this step that could chime in on this subject?

Does anyone think there's a true reason to have children?

What’s the point of anything? I say; meaning. Does not matter what it is: Kids, music, business, charity. All the same.
Personally, I have 4 kids, my oldest two are nearing your age. I would like to believe they are happy I chose their existence.
Only a fool would claim the ONE thing is everything.
Don’t have kids, do have kids. It does not matter. Meaning matters.

 

[zekko]

Notice anything about these reasons? Perhaps how SELFISH they all are??

Someone once told me I was selfish because I didn't want children (can't remember if it was a man or a woman). Because I didn't want to spend the time, money, and energy on another person like that. At the time, it struck me as being true and I couldn't really deny it.

But I hadn't considered the idea that HAVING children might also be selfish. Interesting.

I can't really think of a good reason to have kids, except to pass your genes along to make sure they survive. Especially with the world future looking so uncertain right now. I have no doubt that if I had one, I would love him or her to pieces though.

 

[Razor Sharp]

The point of having kids is the survival/advancement of our species.

Children are also a vehicle for change - if you dont like the way the world is heading, then you can make a difference based on how you raise your child. The more good people decide to not have kids, the more slack-jawed yokels will end up reproducing and dumbing down our entire species.

As far as motives, everyone is different but the most successful parents I know did it for the love and enjoyment only a child can provide. Simple as that. Everyone else has terrible problems with their kids, due to messed up expectations and priorities.

I plan on having kids someday, IF the right woman proves herself a worthy candidate. It would have to be someone that I loved so much that I'd really want to build a "team" with her, and have a relationship of some kind for the rest of our lives. (even if things go sour, you are stuck with that person!)

Back on-topic...the one thought that REALLY discourages me from having kids is the cost of a college education.

That really shouldn't be much of a concern when you consider that college degrees really aint worth squat nowadays. One of my close friends has a masters in business and works like a dog for a venture capitalist firm. He makes okay money, but it's nearly HALF what my other friend makes, and that guy is a simple bartender who never finished high school.

We live in an age where formal education matters less and less. The future's big gainers won't be rewarded on what they were taught, they will be paid because of what they actually know how to do. This obviously doesn't apply to medical or engineering positions - but if your kid really wants to be a doctor, then they better be brilliant enough for a scholarship, or prepared to take out a loan.

Just imagine what would happen if you saved up all this money for university and your kid didn't really have those types of ambitions and ended up blowing that cash on bullsh*t. All that fear and planning for nothing!

For the majority of cases, its what you learn to do in the real world, and not the classroom that will determine your success. Make sure your kid invests time in the areas that interest him/her the most, and help cultivate those skills. That will be worth ten times more than a piece of paper that you paid thousands of dollars for.

 

[Kailex]

I just want to clarify that the point of this thread wasn't whether I am considering having kids in the near future. I am FAR away from that point. I was just wondering why some people who had bothered me in the past about having them, have now done a 180 about the situation.

It's also discouraging to see all of my friends that got married at 22 and had kids, are now mostly unhappy and most likely paying alimony.

IF I have a child, it most likely will not be until WELL into my thirties.

Even if I didn't want to have children, it's very unlikely to find a woman that would share my view even though I know they do exist.

Whether it will happen or not... whether I want it to happen or not, right NOW is completely irrelevant. I'm not even in an LTR, nor do I hope to be in one anytime soon.

But still, I go back to my original point which is something backbreaker pointed out:

when we found out my fiancee was pregnant with my son we did some rough numbers, and after about a week worth of figuring we came up with a ball park of about two fiddy large over a childs life span.

$250,000 over 18 to 21 years.

That's a lot, but what I DO see from a lot of fathers is that to them it seems to be worth it to syphon money that could have been theirs onto their children, without a second thought about it.

I DO appreciate what my parents did for me and how they raised me. To be honest, they were both 22 when I was born, and right now, there's NO way I could have ever seen myself being that young with a child. I'll never get to know what that feels like, and quite honestly, I don't know if I'll ever get even remotely close to knowing what raising a child truly is.

I guess in a way, I share Razor Sharp's mentality:

I plan on having kids someday, IF the right woman proves herself a worthy candidate. It would have to be someone that I loved so much that I'd really want to build a "team" with her, and have a relationship of some kind for the rest of our lives.

 

[zekko]

The point of having kids is the survival/advancement of our species.

Yeah, I think that really is the point, although that's kind of a group goal, rather than an individual one. So it supports the idea that NOT having kids is kind of selfish (of which I am guilty).

Children are also a vehicle for change - if you dont like the way the world is heading, then you can make a difference based on how you raise your child. The more good people decide to not have kids, the more slack-jawed yokels will end up reproducing and dumbing down our entire species.

Unfortunately it seems like the women with the most children are the welfare mothers.

To be honest I don't think there's a woman alive that I would trust to have a child with. And I hate to say that, since I'm more pro-relationship than most on this board. It wouldn't be so bad paying for the kid if you get to watch him grow up. But if you get divorced and end up paying largely to support her lifestyle that would stink.

Once you have kids with a woman she knows she can divorce you at any time and get a huge settlement and forced child support for years and years. You're handing over a good bit of the frame there.

 

[5string]

Kailex. This is just a personal experience. Nothing more. People have their reasons for having kids. That's ok. I won't judge. Just want to give you a few words relative to what happened to me. I married the first time at 27 after graduating from college. She had 2 kids by from a previous marriage and I raised them. I went to the school conferences, helped them with their homework, went to the school plays, had Xmas with them and did all the things a father should do. I put them through college. It was alot of effort however I was committed. They turned out very well thank goodness. After about 3 yrs into the marriage I wanted to have my own with her. And you know what? To this day I cannot even tell you why! Anyway, she refused. I let it go and did not apply any more pressure on her. And there is another point. When you get with a gal who has kids from another guy, they come first and YOU come second. I am happy I never had any at this point in my life. Very happy with that. I am now married for the second time. My wife has a 38 yr old daughter and of course I have none. I'm ok with that. Why have kids? Legacy? Someone to give your stuff too? Someone to take care of you? Yea right! Trying to predict the future with a child, and how they might turn out is like playing blackjack...the dealer may not give you that face card you so desperately want. You may just go back to the hotel broke, unhappy and miserable. When you have kids, no matter what kind of parent you may be, they can still turn out to be less than what you would expect. Should a guy take that chance? Up to him I say. I have done well. In my will, I have left everything to my best buddy and the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation. It will not go to my stepkids nor my wifes daughter. Not that I dislike them, but I paid my dues and owe them nothing. I helped shape their lives for the better and that's enough. Do I think there is a true reason for having children? The answer to that question, for me, is no.

 

[Bible_Belt]

when we found out my fiancee was pregnant with my son we did some rough numbers, and after about a week worth of figuring we came up with a ball park of about two fiddy large over a childs life span. from day care to private school to trips to Disneyland to a first car to doctor bills to school, to the money you iknow your kid is going to need when they get out of school and are on their own.

Wow, you California millionaires sure live in a different world. I don't think my parents spent $250 total on me as a kid. And if you counted the value of all the thousands of hours of yard and farm work I did for them, as well as all of the things I have bought and done for them as an adult, then they very likely came out financially ahead on the deal.

I'm glad I didn't have rich parents to shelter me from the world, or else I would have likely ended up being an over-educated pvssy. My view of life is that it is tough, brutal, and mean, and no one ever gives you anything. That would also be my view of parenthood.

Backbreaker, you seem to have done very well, having not exactly come from wealth in the first place. I bet no one ever planned on spending $250k on little Backbreaker when he was a baby. And yet...look at you. It didn't matter. That $250k might ruin him more than make him.

 

[Kailex]

Is it so unreasonable though to say that the expense of a child goes within a range of the thousands upon thousands?

An economy professor of mine stated that he never had kids because the cost was astronomical, easily six figures between hospital costs, schooling, expenses, housing, toys, extracurricular activities, amidst other things... specially college. Most times parents are still supporting their kids somehow into their 20's.

I never LOOKED into the number, to be honest, I was only 20 so I just listened to it and nodded.



5string, I was secretly hoping that you and zekko would respond to this thread since I know both of you are older and could provide some insight to this situation.
To be honest, as well, there is one more person I was hoping would chime in on this thread since I know he does in fact have children. Whether it was planned or not, I don't know, but it might be intriguing to see his point of view on this matter.


I've read this thread over and over and what most women might perceive as negativity seems to be more of a dosage of reality instead. To some people there is a point, to others, it seems mostly pointless.

What cannot be denied for the most part is those that did have kids are very happy with how it turned out and wouldn't have it any other way.

If I were a parent, would I try to be the best father alive? Of course, but will that come to happen? We shall see.

Zekko and 5string, have you two felt that you're life lacked anything by NOT having children?

 

[Razor Sharp]

Once you have kids with a woman she knows she can divorce you at any time and get a huge settlement and forced child support for years and years. You're handing over a good bit of the frame there.

Everything in life is a risk. You either play or sit on the sidelines. If you do end up taking your shot, there are never any guarantees - but you can drastically increase your odds by keeping your eyes open, having some actual standards of women (besides "being hot"), and protecting yourself with common sense and a little discernment.

To anyone considering fatherhood I would suggest a few things:

> Live a good stretch of your life as a bachelor. You only get one chance to be young so milk it. IMO, kids before 28 is not a good move.

> Date women whose age/reproductive goals align with yours. Younger women are not only hotter, but you don't have to deal with the immediacy of their biological clocks.

> Any good potential mother has an excellent relationship with her family. Her bond with her father speaks VOLUMES.

> Watch how a woman behaves with the people who have wronged her. If you ever mess up (and you will), this is a good preview of what's in store. A forgiving woman wont try to destroy your life or rob you, but a vindictive one will.

> Make sure you are willing to lose lots of sleep and pour massive amounts of energy into something besides yourself. Kids are more work than anyone aside from parents can imagine.

As far as frames go, you should probably forget most of the seduction stuff you learn because it mostly applies to quick/easy lays. When fams is involved it is a shared frame. Yes you are the head of the household and control the overall direction the family moves in, but the era of power struggles and games should be long over. At that point you should have already established your role (and your partner's). Every once in a while you will have to assert and dominate, but for the most part a good woman will automatically look to you for guidance, and trust your judgement.

If you choose wisely and stick to your guns, you avoid a heap of problems that most men face - the same problems that often lead to messy divorces and life-wrecking settlements.

You could argue that a lot of this could be bypassed by not getting married to begin with. But even that won't protect you when there is offspring involved.

 

[mrRuckus]

(1) To be able to continue to leave some sort of legacy

Who cares? You're dead and are incapable of caring at that point.

(2) To have someone to take care of you when you are much older

Saving money from refraining from children will pay for care. You aren't just losing the money you spend on children, but you lose the investment opportunity of that money so you lose many times over. Nowadays your children are likely to move across the country/world and you rarely see or talk to them anyway. There's some chance your children will stick by you like bible belt says he does, but is the risk they won't worth it?

(3) To give meaning to your life

Life has no meaning and chasing this imaginary meaning just leads to either self-delusion or disappointment. Not everything needs meaning, and I'm not sure where the idea that it does comes from.

someone's life from when they were a tiny ball of cells to a fully grown adult, watching them grow, pretty amazing

Not really. There's billions of us and trillions more lifeforms. It's not impressive anymore. Maybe it's just ego talking watching the new you grow. I can just cut myself if i want to watch "amazing" as my cells divide to fill in the gaps.

Back on-topic...the one thought that REALLY discourages me from having kids is the cost of a college education.

You're under no obligation to provide it with one. Why can't you just get him to adulthood the best you can and instill the skills of life him into and wish him best of luck? If you're successful, then he's capable of getting himself through college or succeeding in life some other way.

But I hadn't considered the idea that HAVING children might also be selfish. Interesting.

The population is way too high for my tastes. The world and society seem to be getting worse. How far away is world war 3? Wars over fresh water? Do I really want to subject my unborn children to all this sh1t just to satisfy my whims?

The point of having kids is the survival/advancement of our species.

That's nice for our species but that does me no good on the individual level, and is thus pointless to me unless that sort of thing just makes you feel special inside for some reason.

So it supports the idea that NOT having kids is kind of selfish (of which I am guilty).

How is it selfish to withhold resources from someone who doesn't even exist?

My view of life is that it is tough, brutal, and mean, and no one ever gives you anything

Sure makes it sound like a gift to children to have not been born if that's what awaits them.

 

[5string]

Do I feel my life lacking in some respect for not having children you ask?Briefly Kailex. But that was when I was 30. For some reason I "thought" that this was what was expected of me as a man. How wrong I was to fall for that mindset. I can honestly say that I'm actually relieved I dint have any. I have alot of really good friends. 3 or 4 are very close. They may not be my flesh and blood, but I'd do anything for those guys. Just like I would for a child if I had one. They would do the same for me. I paid a huge price by marrying a woman with two kids whom I ultimately divorced after 25 yrs. In a way, I feel like I wasted my best years taking care of some other guys kids. One thing is for sure....I put way more into it than I ever got in return. This is just me talking here, but if I had it all to do over again, I would not have married a woman with two kids, and I would not have had any of my own under any circumstances. Guys should not get into the "mindset" that having children is what is expected of them. Have your friends. Have your relationships. HAVE WHAT MEANS THE MOST TO YOU! Don't have something in your life just because you have been conditioned into thinking that is what you should do. I have no regrets whatsoever about NOT having my own children.

 

[englishman]

One thing I feel about being a parent is that my (me) genes are going forward in time. I might be dead and gone, but that force whatever it is that is my geneome isn't dead and ended.
And that feels pretty fvking good on some level!

 

[zekko]

Is it so unreasonable though to say that the expense of a child goes within a range of the thousands upon thousands?

I'm sure cost of raising a child now is waaaay more than it used to be, especially if you want to provide the college education and all. And the way the cost of health care and health insurance is explotding, I'm sure it's only going to get worse.

Zekko and 5string, have you two felt that you're life lacked anything
by NOT having children?

I'm probably not the best person to ask this, because I've never really wanted to have kids.
No, I don't feel like I've missed out on anything. The guys I know who HAVE had kids though, don't seem to regret it, and I doubt they would give up their kids for anything.
If I lived to be 200, I might give having kids a try. As it is though, life's too short.

Everything in life is a risk. You either play or sit on the sidelines. If you do end up taking your shot, there are never any guarantees - but you can drastically increase your odds by keeping your eyes open, having some actual standards of women (besides "being hot"), and protecting yourself with common sense and a little discernment.

I completely agree that if you want kids you really need to make sure you have a quality woman, the right woman for you, and the right woman to have kids with.

Thing is, people can change, their circumstances can change, and their goals can change. They may become weak for whatever reason and give in to temptation. A lot of things can happen. So no, I don't trust any woman enough to have a child with her and be a co-parent with me for the next 18 years or more.

But to each his own. I don't want kids anyway. If you want to have kids, go for it. Like Razor Sharp said, everything in ife is a risk. Just be sure you go into it with your eyes open and be aware of what can go wrong.

 

[Kailex]

Reading a few "divorce" threads on this forum leads me to believe that I might only find a general opinion guided towards the "Don't have kids" end of the spectrum.

I wonder what would happen if I posted this in LoveShack? How would that go?

I just see all these messes with divorces and how terrible the situations turn with men who believed these women were special and then it takes a turn for the worse and BOOM: Alimony.

I don't know that I'd want this in my life, or even the risk of that happening. That's a LONG amount of risk.

I just see myself running towards the whole: I won't have kids unless it's with someone who has proven to me that they are worthy enough to bear my child.

I ALREADY had a close run-in with a pregnancy three years ago. Whether the miscarriage was fate, destiny, divine intervention, coincidence, whatever... it definitely gave me a second chance to reevaluate my life's priorities. With this new train of thought, I definitely see myself shifting towards a life fulfilling my own needs, rather than preparing myself mentally to eventually fulfill someone else's needs.

I guess in the end, we all need to be selfish and when it comes to this decision, I think I'm going to be plenty selfish.

 

[Miles28]

Kailex,

You might be interested in reading this (many apologies if someone has posted this already, I didn't read through every reply to this post).

http://www.thepsychologist.org.uk/archive/archive_home.cfm/volumeID_22-editionID_174-ArticleID_1493-getfile_getPDF/thepsychologist/0409powd.pdf

Almost everybody who has kids will say it's the most wonderful thing ever, blah, blah, blah. Of course people are programmed to bond to their children so they're hardly every going to say, 'Erm... no I don't really like my children that much'.

I don't really want to have kids. From the moment you do invariably everything focuses on the child. I have deleted several 'friends' off Facebook because all they do is post about their damn kids every day. To me it's dull. I like living an adult life, having adult (as in grown up, not pornographic) conversations and doing adult things.

I think it's fine for guys. Women are the ones who really feel the pressure from other women who have kids, wanting to drag them into the same hell they have created for themselves under the pretence that they want their friends to be happy. I can't imagine any guy subtly pressuring another guy to have a kid. That would be pretty pathetic.

M

 

[MR109]

Having kids is all ego-based, nothing more.

30 years ago, they taught "Zero Population Growth", due to the environmental and economic ramifications.

Today, they teach nothing.

People are having 3 kids..5 kids..8 kids!! HOLY CRAP! I mean why the hell would "octomom" have the MASSIVE amount of kids?

The only "real" reason to have a kid is to increase popultion...as we are already MILLIONS over=populated, there is no need. The over-population has caused MASSIVE issues environmentally and economically...

very sad.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

(3) To give meaning to your life

I suggest it should be the other way around. You shouldn't have kids unless you already have meaning in your life, and you can pass that on to your kids.

Women seem to be biologically driven to bear and raise children, while men seem biologically driven to make children.

I don't think I man should ever truly yearn to have kids (outside of religious, family, and social pressure, which I admit can be overpoweringly strong) unless he has figured out some real inside secrets of life he feels the need to pass down.

 

[FairShake]

Because kids are awesome.

I'm not sure you really truely understand this...and truely understand life in general...until you've raised a child.

 

[Kailex]

I don't think I man should ever truly yearn to have kids (outside of religious, family, and social pressure, which I admit can be overpoweringly strong) unless he has figured out some real inside secrets of life he feels the need to pass down.

This REALLY stuck home with me Taiyuu.
You listed THREE conditions which lead us to believe why we SHOULD have children, and all of a sudden, ALL three for me are gone.

I've never been deeply religious although I am a Christian, but I've never seen it as a mandate to have more children.
As previously stated, all of a sudden FAMILY and SOCIAL PRESSURE no longer exist for me.

In my twenties, YES.
But as I quickly approach my thirties, overwhelmingly, NO.

A lot has changed in the last ten years, not just for me, but for the world as a whole. Now that I have NEITHER of those three "pressures", I'm suddenly at a loss for any reasoning by which to have children.

I'm not sure you really truely understand this...and truely understand life in general...until you've raised a child.

I take it you are a father.

I have some questions, since you are. I'm just deeply curious.
Was conceiving a child something you PLANNED?

And second, how is the perspective on life change based on having a child?

I know a lot of people who say that it's so different once you have someone depending on you. But does this pressure to be a good parent outweigh the overall compensation?