Plate theory

[Colossus]

Str8- great reply. I think were a lot alike.

Rollo- It isnt that im not looking for more than one girl, its that im OK with only one girl, so long as she is the right girl. AND, i would be ok with more than one, if they were what i like.

Str8 had some good points. Im a very introverted guy. I know this not immutable, so its one of the things im working hardest to change. But at the end of the day a lot of socializing becomes taxing for me. It really is a forced effort for me to step out and talk to a lot of people, at least when im sober. I always feel better after i approach and talk, but like Str8 said, i often just dont WANT to go out and try to recruit girls for the bullpen...its a numbers game. It doesnt stab my ego to stay in 5 nights a week.

I have no intention of serial monkey-bar swinging my way to 'mrs. right'.
Im ok with nexting a girl if she sucks, even if shes the only option. So i may not get laid for a few weeks. Ill live. Whats important to me is that Im striving to be a man who is doesnt NEED a woman, or women, to be content.

 

[STR8UP]

The short answer is yes, but let me explain. I've gone into this before, but it bears repeating; too many guys see Plate Theory as a kind of second job. STR8UP and some of the others here bemoan a lack of patience or time or effort to run down all of these Plates they're spinning and how they need a personal secretary just to keep track of their schedules with all of them.

Maybe I'm a little slow, but I'm trying real hard to understand this.

First off, it would seem to me that the act of spinning plates, as in actively seeking plates, maintaining them at various levels, and recruiting new plates as old ones fall off would be something that i would do if I were seeking to get into a marriage or serious relationship. Like I'm interviewing candidates for the job.

I'm with Colossus. If it HAPPENS that you find yourself in the situation of having more than one plate in play at any given time, great. Run with it. It's fun, I've done it before.

But I'm the kind of guy who has finally managed to get myself to the point where I understand that I don't need ANYONE but myself. Women are simply an amusement for me at this point in my life. Something to add a little spice here and there.

Second of all, it seems that I am not understanding correctly just what plate theory really is.

To me, "Spinning plates" is just what it sounds....you are involved with multiple women non-exclusively at any given time.

But what I am starting to gather is that you are saying that it's more of a state of mind.

But if it's a state of mind, then I would propose you make a distinction.

Spinning plates requires active participation on your part. The mindset that you have options without necessarily pursuing them is more passive. It's a state of mind. To my eye it looks like two different things. Spin plates = searching for a good woman. Spinning plates mindset = knowing you COULD be spinning plates, if you were so inclined.

I would say that I have this mindset. I know that at any given time there are multiple women who are interested in me. I know my value in the mating game.

Am I understanding this correctly?

First off, I think this is a horsesh!t rationale for not even trying to entertain women non-exclusively. Sorry to be so blunt, but how many guys have really had the sack to even spin 2 plates much less as many as would really occupy all of their mental effort?

Trying equals effort. I can see that you agree with this from the last sentence. Why on EARTH would someone want to "spin as many plates as would really occupy all their mental effort?"

That just goes to prove my point. How many is enough? How many is too many?

What I am saying is that for those of us who aren't searching for the woman of our dreams, why would we want to take the time and energy to pursue multiple "options", if we aren't on a mission to find a woman and we are happy with things with or without women?

Admittedly, Plate Theory is counterintuitive in practice - it feels wrong because it goes against what most guys have been conditioned to think is the only way to earn a woman's intimacy and this is establishing exclusivity.

At this point in my life it doesn't even seem unnatural or wrong. Yea, back in the day it felt strange to be fukking one chick one night and another one the next. But those days are long gone.

Secondly, the reason you only seem to "find ONE girl" at a time is directly attributable to this. You're simply not looking for more than one girl.

I'm not even "looking" for ONE girl.

So when the stars align and I do meet one that I like, why should I seek more?

To kill desperation that I don't have?

To assure that I do the "right things" with the one I like?

I take pride in knowing that I am for the most part PAST all of that.

She will ration the sex to you intermittently, she will ration her affirmation of you as she sees you conform to what she expects and approves of, and she will dictate what parts of your identity she accepts and what parts need to be fixed to better suit her acceptance, all because you subconsciously know you have NO OTHER VALID OPTIONS.

You propose that a man must have options with other women as a tool to "keep his b!tch in check".

You know what works equally well? The ability to WALK AWAY.

If you have this ability, a woman has ZERO control over you.

 

[STR8UP]

Rollo- It isnt that im not looking for more than one girl, its that im OK with only one girl, so long as she is the right girl. AND, i would be ok with more than one, if they were what i like.

Exactly.

Str8 had some good points. Im a very introverted guy. I know this not immutable, so its one of the things im working hardest to change. But at the end of the day a lot of socializing becomes taxing for me. It really is a forced effort for me to step out and talk to a lot of people, at least when im sober. I always feel better after i approach and talk, but like Str8 said, i often just dont WANT to go out and try to recruit girls for the bullpen...its a numbers game. It doesnt stab my ego to stay in 5 nights a week.

I have no intention of serial monkey-bar swinging my way to 'mrs. right'.
Im ok with nexting a girl if she sucks, even if shes the only option. So i may not get laid for a few weeks. Ill live. Whats important to me is that Im striving to be a man who is doesnt NEED a woman, or women, to be content.

We are on the same page here, and I think we are also on the same page as Rollo, but there's a little bit of a misunderstanding as to the definition of what spinning plates actually is.

 

[guru1000]

Exactly.



We are on the same page here, and I think we are also on the same page as Rollo, but there's a little bit of a misunderstanding as to the definition of what spinning plates actually is.

I agree with you. Like I say spinning plates is another technique to compensate for the lack of true inner belief. However, at the end of the day if all the plates fell on the floor and broke, you would still be that AFC.

An AFC with Assets , is still an AFC. He might portray the image of a MAN, but ultimately if his assets are lost, he his still AFC.

So let's take this furthur. Does this correct the problem or is it a temporary solution? Now if he KILLS HIS DESPERATION because of many assets spinning , his actions speak MAN, but his inner beliefs speak AFC> Finally he finds the lady who was THE ONE and he gets married. What happens now?
His AFC inner beliefs now transmute into action and his wife leaves him. So what was the whole point of spinning plates to find the RIGHT ONE especially when she FOUND HIM BECAUSE OF WHO HE WAS NOT.

Then you say spinning plates is a step from A to Z. It's a process of mental programming. But it's false mental programming, because it result based. You NEED TO HAVE PLATES SPINNING (RESULT) not to be in desperation. To correctly program you must be in the same mind frame regardless of circumstance.

So STRAIGHTUP , i agree with your mentality. If you do not need a WOMAN to make you a MAN, this is when you conquer the FEAR OF BEING ALONE , and accomplish the ultimate task of MANHOOD.

 

[ketostix]

I agree with Str8up and guru. And now we're getting into the question of whether you can successfully perform an action (spinning plates or being non-AFC) contrary to your mindset. But I don't think the actions and mindset needed for successful plate spinning or juggling women is necessarily the same that is needed for a LTR. The former is short-term realtionships and the second is longterm, they're not exactly the same thing.

I mean really, how many people are in a long-term relationship and are spinning plates and this isn't causing any negative effects on the LTR? I guess I'm not clear on what spinning plates constitutes. Is it just flirting and leading on other women, having sex with them, or all the way into having multi-relationships.

It's not clear to me either what Rollo is suggesting. I differ on the definition of one-itis. And Rollo seems to imply that being exclusive and monogomous is abnormal. He seems to say don't get "attached" to any woman or you're in for a lot bad things from your woman.

like Str8up said, if it's just a mindset and doesn't require the actual spinning of plates. You either have this mindset or you don't but it doesn't require plate spinning to have it. Again, I'm back to my former question, isn't there other ways to acomplish the same thing and have the same mindset? What about nexting, calling your girl on her crap and set guidelines, and being dominant in your realtionship.

 

[Interceptor]

Spinning plates satisfies your desires for female companionship. It produces a mindset of abundance, and provides field experience with women. You are receptive to a lot of experiences with women,you exude attarctiveness and approachability, having lots of women becomes YOUR REALITY, and you are in a good frame of mind in which you can pick and choose one woman over the other.

Plate Theory is NOT about BEING in AN LTR and seeing other women on the side. It is about not having exclusivity until a paritcular woman you are dating STANDS OUT FROM THE CROWD. And then, and only then do you DECIDE if you want to agree to her desire for exclusivity /monogamy with you in an LTR.

Put this into context form a woman's comment:

"All you guys are exactly the same until you prove it otherwise."

PlateTheory simply puts this notion into practice.

"All you ladies are exactly the same, until you prove to ME otherwise."



By not being TOO attached to any one woman, you stay happy and content enjoying your leisure time with women who you are attracted to. If one of these women demonstrates the qualities you desire for an exclusive LTR then you , as a mature man, deliberate if you wish you give your attention to this particular woman and exclude all others.
By having the experience, having natural experience derived confidence, being aware of your abundance and options, being perfectly fine in attracting new women all the time, being able to walk away at the snap of your fingers, and having weeded out the inferiror women, I say you can't go wrong with Plate Theory.
RT is not against LTR, or exclusivity, or monogamy.
Plate Theory helps to stave off the disease of oneitis, by providing a healthy atmosphere of enjoyable male/female interactions of your choosing.
Consider every woman a gift and appreciate her, but don't get too emotionally invested.
You don't have to go out with a different woman every night. But you can plan on having the company of an attractive woman, say every weekend.
Look forward to the time you have together, and make sure you enjoy it. If it's not fun, then don't do it.
Becoming attached to a woman is not a bad thing per se.
It is when she is your only option. It is a bad thing when she is just really a woman who said "Yes" to your sexual advances, and is nothing more.It is unhealthy when you place this woman on the pedastle, and give her a higher status than she deserves simply becasue she is your only option, you have scarce mentality, and are afraid to lose her.

Men do get attached, well, let me rephrase that, AFCs DO get "attached" to the women whom they have sex with. They feel so honored and priviledged that a woman actually acknowledges them, that they project all these visions on these women. Plate Theory matures you, gives you insight and wisdom, and provides you a persepctive, a healthy perspective form which to view your relations with women. You simply have a labratory on ow to get fgood with women, and look at it fo=rom the perspective that you're there to have fun, not get married and settle down ASAP.
Plate Theory empowers you, it puts you in control of your relationships. You get to decide whioch woman gets your attention and when. You also have the confidence that you have other options, and have the skills to make other options happen foryou. You also gain the skills to KEEP the womne you're dating, which is extremely helpful as PRactice makes Perfect.


Plate theory helps you learn more about yourself and your interactions with women, and women's behavior in general.


It does separate the men from the boys though.

All you really need is the will, the desire, the appreciation for women, the true desire for women's company, and some disposable cash for dates.
If you can put Plate Theory into practice, and are well adjusted, it can only ghet better and better.
IMHO it's a Win/Win situation.

This is an interesting article:

http://donjuantipsdaily.blogspot.com/search/label/attributes of women

 

[Colossus]

We are on the same page here, and I think we are also on the same page as Rollo, but there's a little bit of a misunderstanding as to the definition of what spinning plates actually is.

I agree. The title 'plate THEORY' always bugged me because there is nothing theoretical about it. It is what it is--seeing multiple women non-exclusively at the same time. But lets not gray the lines here. You cant say you practice it if you arent actually...practicing it. So you believe in your innate ability to go out and generate options and manage them concurrently..thats fine. But its simply a belief; a manifestation of your own self-worth.

I get the sense that Rollo's whole proposal of this topic in a nutshell is options=power. Fine. Simple. But to say that a man is going to get his cubes stomped on and his psyche systematically dismantled because he fails to pursue and/or maintain other options implies that his very strength COMES from his options. This is where is disagree. Options give power because you have less to lose, but i will not accept that not having a quiver of options at any given time negates my own personal power to move forward.

 

[Interceptor]

I do agree that there are some men who don't succumb to Oneitis, and do not practice Plate Theory. They are more emotionally matured, even if they haven't really had a lot of women. They have had other experiences in life that have helped shape their psyche, and as a result, they are much stronger in resisting oneitis, and have proper perspective on women, and life events in general.
But I think that's exception rather than the rule.
Hence, for those who do not have the "Personal Power" formulated at that level, there's application of Plate Theory. They will then open their eyes, and mature, and empower themselves, and gain a proper perspective.
I think it's also important to not be dramatic and jump to the extreme in saying that by spinning Plates, you derive all your confidence from them, and if they're gone, you immediately turn into a quivering, sobbing, ball of mush.

 

[STR8UP]

I agree. The title 'plate THEORY' always bugged me because there is nothing theoretical about it. It is what it is--seeing multiple women non-exclusively at the same time. But lets not gray the lines here. You cant say you practice it if you arent actually...practicing it. So you believe in your innate ability to go out and generate options and manage them concurrently..thats fine. But its simply a belief; a manifestation of your own self-worth.

Once again, I'm not trying to tear down the theory. It's about time men play the game the way women do.

I'm just of the belief that it doesn't paint the entire picture, which is that if you are entirely comfortable being WITHOUT a woman, you don't NEED to spin plates.

I get the sense that Rollo's whole proposal of this topic in a nutshell is options=power. Fine. Simple. But to say that a man is going to get his cubes stomped on and his psyche systematically dismantled because he fails to pursue and/or maintain other options implies that his very strength COMES from his options. This is where is disagree. Options give power because you have less to lose, but i will not accept that not having a quiver of options at any given time negates my own personal power to move forward.

That's an interesting point.

Your strength and power should come from within.

When you need to boost your confidence and you need help maintaining a healthy, balanced relationship, that's where spinning plates (the physical act of) comes in VERY handy.

Me, I'm content in knowing that all relationships have a beginning and an end, and if one doesn't work out I can be happy moving on to the next, and being ALONE in the interim is fine too.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Here's another interesting aspect of plate theory: When used for dating/relationships, it's considered by many to be bad or evil. When the same theory is applied to buying a house or car, or applying for a job, it's considered good.

When you go to a car lot eying one car, you're sunk by the salesman. He has you by the nads and you can't escape. When you buy independently off the lot and on cyberspace or through the classifieds and call many sellers and look at many cars but don't commit to either one, you have the control.

One of the best lines ever spoken on this board is, "A man is only as good as his options." This goes for career, car, house, and yes, relationships.

Timely as ever WESTCOASTER. It just so happens that I'm shopping for a Chrysler 300 this week and I was thinking about how easy it is to apply Plate Theory to a sales situation.

Last Friday I went to the local Chrysler dealership and test drove a kick ass 300. After which the salesman invited me in to negotiate a deal (i.e. committment). I told him thanks, I loved the car, but I'd get back to him because I'd taken the day off of work to drive a lot of cars and I had quite a few more to see that day (his was just the first). It was a nice car but I wanted to see as many as I could.

The next morning I get a call from him around 9am. I was curious to know how he'd gotten my number and he said I was listed (which I am) and he looked me up (unprompted pursuit). He'd taken the initiative on his own, this is when I knew I could name my price.

It was the best car I'd driven that day so I went down to the dealer, and basically told the sales guy, "look, I work with sales guys in the liquor industry everyday. The question isn't how bad I want this car, the question is, how bad do you want to sell me this car?" They wanted $19,900 for it and there was no ƒucking way I was paying that whether it was worth it or not. Still, it is the Limited 300 with all the goodies and a 3.5 liter V6 (a big step above the base 2.6 liter version) so I said, I wanted $1700 for my 4Runner (highway robbery, but it's old) and I'd pay $16,500 for the car, heheh,..So they take my keys to my 4Runner to check it out, making me wait about 10 minutes at the table - standard sh!t. They come back and say 'no way' $16K is wholesale for an 05. I ask for my keys back, picked up my sh!t and said "call me when you want to sell a car." The guy already knew I was looking and driving other dealers 300s from when I'd come in the day before and did a test drive, so I knew he'd call again. Sure as sh!t, I'm driving to see another 300 at lunch yesterday, and he calls me "Sorry we got off to a bad start Mr. Tomassi, but my manager has approved your offer this morning if you're still interested?" Of course I am, but I tell him I'm looking at one more 300 at lunch and I'd get back to him.

Now, I probably will buy the car, but he was only one of 4 other salesman "following up" with me to "earn my business" (every one of them used this line on me). How many women are 'following up' with you to earn your business? How many cars does a Man own in one lifetime? We spend a lot of time in our cars, we spend a lot of money on our cars. If we truly are the PRIZE to be competed for, should we not have at least a small group of women vying for our business when it comes to committment?

The most frequent cop out I hear about Plate Theory is that it takes too much time and effort and scheduling to pull off realistically and so that's why they take a one-at-a-time approach. However I call this a cop out because if you are practicing Plate Theory correctly you wont need to budget your time or make the effort you think you will because your Plates will do this for you. To the one-at-a-time guy I'm sure this sounds overly optomistic, but you wont know if you dont attempt it. How many women are "earning your business" now? One? How did she earn it? By being gracious enough to give you a test drive? Her previous BFs (and probably a few ONS) got a test drive too. Have you EVER been in a position where women were vying for your business or have YOU always been the one 'following up', looking up her number and throwing your hat in the ring with 4 or 5 other guys trying to close the deal? Is this really the reason why Plate Theory seems foreign to you? Think about it.

True, women should only ever be a compliment to a man's life, never the focus of it. But how many guys who pass off on Plate Theory, saying "I'm just so busy with life I don't overly concern myself with women" would be even more 'freed up' if they had more real options? Plate Theory contributes to your ability to explore options - whether those are more women or more opportunities to explore your ambitons the effect is the same.

 

[Bible_Belt]

I love the sales metaphors.

When you buy independently off the lot and on cyberspace or through the classifieds and call many sellers and look at many cars but don't commit to either one, you have the control.

fwiw, it can go either way. Any force that can be used in your favor can also be used against you. I have been on the seller end of many private car and motorcycle transactions. It's a competition to be more special. When I sell a car and get my full price right away, it is because I convince the buyer that my phone is constantly ringing and I am a great deal that won't be around long. To be fair to the new car guys, the scarcity pitch it harder for them; the same new car is not hard to find. But when I get a low-ball offer, I treat it the same as a woman telling me that we are not having sex as she leads me into her bedroom. Smile, acknowledge and ignore, don't show any disappointment or negativity, and this silently conveys that not getting what I want right now is no big deal, because if I don't, then someone else is very soon going to pick up on this great deal and give me what I want. The same attitude that Rollo used with the salesman is how the most successful salesmen sell a lot of cars - they treat buyers that way. The power struggle is ultimately one of who will be the one to believe that they are lucky for being able to talk to the other side. It's the same thing with women - plate spinning makes her be the lucky one to be talking to you.

 

[ketostix]

Well I can't argue that if women think you have options and are in demand that they don't treat you better but:

it can go either way. Any force that can be used in your favor can also be used against you. I have been on the seller end of many private car and motorcycle transactions. It's a competition to be more special. When I sell a car and get my full price right away, it is because I convince the buyer that my phone is constantly ringing and I am a great deal that won't be around long.

In Rollo's analogy this is more like what a man's role is. He's the salesman. See you don't have to actually have other buyers (women) to accomplish the same result. You can have the same mindset and convey that you have other buyers (women).

What makes Rollo's analogy non-analogous is that most women do have a lot of "sellers" to choose from that will jump at whatever low ball offer she offers. The only saving grace for men is that women don't all what a guy that excepts a low ball offer.Most women actually do have options and most men don't. Women and men are in an inversely porportionate relationship.
The better circumstances a woman has the worse the men have.

If you can easily find plates to spend, then you have de facto value to women. It's a fait accompli, the plates spinning wasn't a cause it was the effect of having value. Spin the plates if you want, but you just still need to realize your value. Other guys are going to find it hard to get plates spinning. Either way whether you actually have plates spinning or not, it's the having a mindset that you're valuable and conveying that which matters. I think that's what Str8up is saying too.

 

[STR8UP]

Timely as ever WESTCOASTER. It just so happens that I'm shopping for a Chrysler 300 this week and I was thinking about how easy it is to apply Plate Theory to a sales situation.

Okay, so lets turn this analogy around to demonstrate my point.

You WANT a new car. You are GOING TO BUY a new car. The question is not IF you are going to buy, it's WHO you are going to buy it from.

You roll out of the car lot armed with your "plates" (other car dealerships).

I pull in ten minutes later and start talking to the same salesman about the same car. But I'm in a little different situation. I've been thinking about getting a new car, but only when (and if) I come across something that really impresses me. If I don't find anything that impresses me, I don't buy.

I walk into the dealership with the same ammunition, I'm just using a different gun.

YOUR gun is the ability to shop other dealers for the same car. MY gun is the fact that I'm only buying IF it's 100% on my terms, which means if I don't get what I want I don't buy at all.

Different approach, same effect.

The most frequent cop out I hear about Plate Theory is that it takes too much time and effort and scheduling to pull off realistically and so that's why they take a one-at-a-time approach. However I call this a cop out because if you are practicing Plate Theory correctly you wont need to budget your time or make the effort you think you will because your Plates will do this for you.

I see exactly what you are saying, however, for someone like myself who works 7 days a week, sometimes up to 12 hours a day, it's very difficult to deal with ONE woman, let alone several.

Granted, this is just a temporary thing for me. I will eventually be able to get myself back to a somewhat normal schedule. When that day comes, and if I ever get to the point where I am interested in securing a good quality LTR, I might be doing things a little differently.

To the one-at-a-time guy I'm sure this sounds overly optomistic, but you wont know if you dont attempt it.

I have been in this situation before, but it wasn't because I actively pursued it. In cases where I have had multiple plates it was because it just happened that way.

You could effectively say that right now, today, I have no plates. Not one.

But that's ok with me. When I get done with work all i want to do is kick back in my chair ALONE most of the time.

If I met a cool chick tomorrow and I decided i liked her enough to take away from my "me" time, I would make arrangements to be able to see her.

Lets say I see her once or twice a week for a month or two. Am I supposed to go out and actively recruit other women to ensure that I am not in a position of weakness with girl #1? I didn't actively recruit girl #1, why would I actively seek to recruit more?

 

[ketostix]

I walk into the dealership with the same ammunition, I'm just using a different gun.

YOUR gun is the ability to shop other dealers for the same car. MY gun is the fact that I'm only buying IF it's 100% on my terms, which means if I don't get what I want I don't buy at all.

Different approach, same effect.

Exactly. You don't have actually to be shopping with other dealers (women) or even in the market to buy per se to only accept the deal you want. Your attitude and mindset of what deal you will accept is the same. So the dealers (women) will assume you have other options and can get a better deal by implication. Every woman just like every dealer knows there's other women/dealers out there. If you demand a better deal,they'll just assume you have options for a better deal.

 

[WestCoaster]

I agree with both sides

I'm a subscriber to plate theory and exclusive relationships, if that makes sense.

Plate theory is ideal in the dating process, after awhile you eventually get togther with one gal for awhile. Where it's changed for me in the last few years (since I found this website), is I put all that soul mate B.S. to rest. I realize I could fall for millions of women and timing, location, and chemistry connected me with the woman of the moment.

When I'm in a relationship, I'm not practicing plate theory, but then again, I'm not practicing soul mate B.S. either. I've learned the hard way that women can dump you because ... well, just because. They might be having a bad hair day, who the heck knows? I've learned to move on, walk away, date others, quit analyzing and realize I could fall in love with zillions of different women.

That said, I don't feel like spinning plates or looking around when I'm in a relationship. If/when the relationship ends, I'm back to dating multiple women for the screening process.

Plate theory works, but if you're in a relationship and practicing it, it's futile. Otherwise, why be in a relationship?

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Just for the record, I did buy the car.

 

[STR8UP]

Just for the record, I did buy the car.

Big pimpin'!

Lets drive that sucker down Orange Ave on a Saturday night. Me, Karma, and Dish can hang out the windows and holla at the shorties, lol

 

[Colossus]

I'm a subscriber to plate theory and exclusive relationships, if that makes sense.

Plate theory is ideal in the dating process, after awhile you eventually get togther with one gal for awhile. Where it's changed for me in the last few years (since I found this website), is I put all that soul mate B.S. to rest. I realize I could fall for millions of women and timing, location, and chemistry connected me with the woman of the moment.

When I'm in a relationship, I'm not practicing plate theory, but then again, I'm not practicing soul mate B.S. either. I've learned the hard way that women can dump you because ... well, just because. They might be having a bad hair day, who the heck knows? I've learned to move on, walk away, date others, quit analyzing and realize I could fall in love with zillions of different women.

That said, I don't feel like spinning plates or looking around when I'm in a relationship. If/when the relationship ends, I'm back to dating multiple women for the screening process.

Plate theory works, but if you're in a relationship and practicing it, it's futile. Otherwise, why be in a relationship?

Genuine take West. It's that simple.

 

[Colossus]

Just for the record, I did buy the car.

So thats what you look like!

I always wonder what types of faces are behind the monikers here.

 

[ketostix]

RT if you colored your hair you could pass for at least 10 years younger. Not saying I know anything about that from personal experience But seriously just about all guys around 30 get a few greys here and there. Look at Anderson Cooper, some guy go totally gray at 25.