Plate theory

[disfunktional]

Hi guys,

I've read about plate theory and it seems to be highly advocated by a lot of people on the forum. I'm interested to discuss it. I'm not experienced in spinning plates, my experience in the past couple of years has been a string of STR's and I've not been seeing multiple women at the same time. This is probably due to fear of approach, laziness and time.

Forgive me if I've misunderstood but it would seem that it's often pushed as a way of fighting ONEitis so you don't get it for the one girl you are seeing. If you spin plates, you have more options and are therefore unlikely to get hung up over one girl, makes sense. However, if you are prone to getting ONEitis then is spinning plates not just covering up an underlying issue? There must be a self-esteem issue at the root of ONEitis don't you think? What happens when you find a girl who you want to be exclusive with, would you then not fall back into the ways of ONEitis if all you had been doing is spinning plates to fend it off?

df

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Read thhis before you launch into any discussion:

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=90482

 

[disfunktional]

Thanks for the link. If I read correctly, spinning plates can bring confidence as the guy knows he has options and therefore is unlikley to get ONEitis for one girl which makes sense.

I can't help thinking we should have this confidence anyway though? Like if we are seeing only one girl, the attitude towards the relationship should be one that you know you are complete as you are, and when the relationship ends you know you will be fine as you have made yourself the prize and you just carry on doing what you do. The relationship is just an addition to your life at the end of the day.

Don't get me wrong, I've shown signs of ONEitis in the past as have most guys. I see nothing wrong with spinning plates but I can't help thinking there are other ways to gain this inner confidence?

df

 

[logic1]

Its more than the ONEitis disease.

If your looking for a ltr it helps you sift thru the rit,rat to find a women you are compatible with. Instead of settling for the first women you meet.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

I can't help thinking we should have this confidence anyway though? Like if we are seeing only one girl, the attitude towards the relationship should be one that you know you are complete as you are, and when the relationship ends you know you will be fine as you have made yourself the prize and you just carry on doing what you do. The relationship is just an addition to your life at the end of the day.

Yes. We should have this confidence, and there was a time when just being a man implied this. Whenever you ask a woman what they want in guy, invaribly the word confidence is always the highest character trait they seek. Read any "wish list" women put on their personal online dating profiles. Confidence is always there - and why wouldnt it be? No woman wants an indecisive man who lacks the confidence to achieve his ambitions. In fact it's an insult to her capacity for attracting a Man with confidence.

Unfortunately the very thing that makes a Man confident is what causes her the greatest anxiety and insecurity - and this of course is a Man's most valuable resource - options and his ability to manuever. The price of the confidence women seek is dealing with the discomfort that she could be replaced by a better option at any time. This is where the paradox comes in; they want the self-satisfaction that they are exclusively intimate with a Man of confidence, but the committment that exclusivity demands limits the options his confidence depends on.

Women's primary drive is for long term security and provisioning from a man. Remember, this security can mean many things - emotional, financial, fidelity, responsibility, affirmation, etc. or any combination, but security is the primary goal. In our feminized world, women are simultaneously sold independence while their insecurities are pandered to. Thus, the 'Today's Woman' message encourages women to be fiercely independent and self-sufficient, while playing on her self-doubt. In the same day women get the "you go girl" message in regards to her pre-packaged ambitions, but not to forget that her soulmate is waiting for her at eHarmony.

Given such contradictions of the day, and the fact that anything masculine is not to be trusted (rather ridiculed), the default has become a concentrated effort to limit a Man's options - and thus his confidence. This security desire overrides the confidence desire. So in order to keep a Man in her frame, she devlops social norms for him to follow while still pretending that his confidence is still intact. The push is to grasp as tightly as she can to his personal decisions - who he'll live with, where he'll go to college, where he'll work etc., but the challenge is to psychologically convince him that her decisions are his own independent ones.

This isn't true confidence. Men without options are not confident, they are necessitous, and necessitous men are never free. Rare is the truly confident guy who realizes his common worth to a woman and acts on it. Women call these guys Jerks, or selfish or "shallow" when in fact they burn for them with desire, because they have to qualify themselves for their attention as a result of this confidence. They stay up at night pining for men with the confidence enough to put her off. Their imaginations run riot with the thought of other women earning his attentions and spur them to outdoing their imagined rival, personally, sexually and emotionally. They become women bent on "fixing" the confident guy, but this really amounts to them inventing ways to limit the options that make him confident. It's the rare Man who uses this to his advantage and gives his LTR what she wants (security) but still adamantly refuses to identify with her, while still maintaining that competitive anxiety which keeps her on the rollercoaster she hates, but loves at the same time.

 

[Colossus]

It's the rare Man who uses this to his advantage and gives his LTR what she wants (security) but still adamantly refuses to identify with her, while still maintaining that competitive anxiety which keeps her on the rollercoaster she hates, but loves at the same time.

Could you elaborate on this a bit...an example maybe?

And how does this apply to the married man? It seems like trying to maintain 'competitive anxiety' would become a tiring dance.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

One aspect of learning confidence and being a Man that most rAFC struggle with is the sense that they are putting on a constant act to keep their plates or LTR spinning. The common misunderstanding is one of exhaustion; "How can I always be playing this part all the time? Can't I ever relax?" To which my answer is always this; if you aren't relaxed in being confident, you're not truly confident.

The biggest problem AFCs fight against is the social conditioning which tells them their personality is fixed and unchangable, or at the very least it's only changeable by circumstance they have little or no control over. This all goes back to the JBY (Just Be Yourself) dillema. Have a read here and you'll get a good out line of this. The short version is basically, you are who you say you are. The truth being that personality is infinitely changeable and is constantly shifting in order to deal with our changing conditions in life.

Like it or not, you are not the same person you were 2 years ago. Now, there are character traits and talents you'll carry throughout life to be sure (and only so long as you'll contine to practice them), but your personality is what you say it is. This is why I laugh at these hard and fast ideologies for personality like introverts & extroverts, phlegmatic, sardonic, melancholy, etc. are all very outmoded theories of personality, but we popularly cling to them for the exact same reason AFCs cling to their lack of control - it's easier and more comfortable to stay in a comfort zone of routine than to address an issue with uncomfortable critical thought. Thus, the rationale is borne, "well, that's just how I am."

Apply this mentality to an rAFC who's still stuck thinking his personality can't change. Everything he learns from the DJ or the PUA, for better or worse, feels like an act he has to constantly maintain or his house of cards comes crashing down. The scripts are working. The behavior is achieving his desired results, but he feels like a fraud because he still hasn't made the transition to believing he can be who he says he is. This is very tough for a fresh AFC because it takes a monumental effort to behave in a way that for most of his life would've seemed counterintuitive. This says nothing of actually maintaining the effort. What has to take place is a transitioning toward making this new mindset "how he is."

It is only a difficult and tiresome 'dance' when the behavior is perceived as not being normal. Learn this now - anything can become normal. Yes, this cuts both ways, but it's all in how you choose to direct it.

Far too many AFCs are all too willing to identify with a woman in order to qualify themselves to her and this becomes even more of an issue in an LTR or a marriage. Read Identity Crisis for a more detailed run down.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

POTATO, I understand your misperception about Plate Theory. To the uninitiated it seems, ruthless, mercenary, or at the very least manipulative. Go and read my original thread before you make an estimation on your 'basic idea'.

The reason I say this is because Plate Theory is based on principle; it's not a methodology. It's entirely possible to have a generated self-confidence based on the Plate Theory principle and have zero women in your bullpen. That may sound contradictory if you only see Plate Theory as a methodology (i.e. the more prospective women you have simultaneously gauges self-confidence). Read my post above regarding options and the confidence this inspires. I've been married for 11 years now. I don't have a list of women warming up in the bullpen. What I do have is the self-confidence that I could if my conditions changed. I know women find me attractive, I know I'm in better shape than 95% of men my age, I'm university educated, I have better understanding of how women behave and their various psychologies, I make above average money, and I could go on. This isn't a list meant to gloss myself, but rather it's a acknowledgement of my own worth as a person and the options that come as result of it. Plate Theory is based on self-acknowledgement of one's own options. Single men with no plates spinning can still benefit from Plate Theory. It's this idea that counters ONEitis, counters a Scarcity Mentality and counters a "take-what-I-can-get" settling attitude.

The other is the whole issue of oneitis. Oneitis is the idea that a man has so fallen for one girl that he no longer considers other girls. Where I come from it is called falling in love.

This is a very dangerous misperception. ONEitis and a healthy, mature, love-based relationship are night & day different. ONEitis is a psychological disorder.

Read this post before you respond to that:

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1248484&postcount=18

 

[WestCoaster]

Here's another interesting aspect of plate theory: When used for dating/relationships, it's considered by many to be bad or evil. When the same theory is applied to buying a house or car, or applying for a job, it's considered good.

I remember when I interviewed for my current job: I wasn't sure I wanted it, I had some others on the burner that I interviewed for. When I came here for the interviews (there were many) it was the most confident I'd felt in a long time. Why? Well, I had options. If this fell through, I was confident one of the other places would've hired me.

When you go to a car lot eying one car, you're sunk by the salesman. He has you by the nads and you can't escape. When you buy independently off the lot and on cyberspace or through the classifieds and call many sellers and look at many cars but don't commit to either one, you have the control.

One of the best lines ever spoken on this board is, "A man is only as good as his options." This goes for career, car, house, and yes, relationships.

 

[STR8UP]

The way I understand it, plate theory is somewhat of a "crutch", as the original poster alluded to.

This is not to slam Rollo. I have met him personally and his insights are nothing short of brilliant.

I just see it a little differently. In a way it IS skirting an underlying issue.

If you must have multiple women in play to feel good about yourself and to be able to keep yourself from being too wrapped up emotionally with any one woman, there is an underlying problem. Most of us suffer from this problem at some point in our lives. I still do from time to time. I know that I feel like a different person when I know that half a dozen different chicks would line up to be in a relationship with me, as opposed to when I feel as though I have no or few options.

So Rollo, basically you are saying that you aren't spinning plates, but you ARE practicing plate theory?

I don't follow you.

And you say single men with no plates spinning can still benefit from plate theory. How is this?

Plate theory says "spin more plates".

By saying that a single man with no plates can benefit, you are basically saying that he has enough confidence and self esteem to not NEED plate theory. Help me understand......

 

[armadon]

I'm not a subscriber to plate theory. I don't have the time for it. I understand the concept of it but honestly I think you can be confident knowing one plate is enough. I spin one plate and if that falls I just move onto the next one. I really don't care if it falls because I know the next week another will take it's place.

 

[STR8UP]

I'm not a subscriber to plate theory. I don't have the time for it. I understand the concept of it but honestly I think you can be confident knowing one plate is enough. I spin one plate and if that falls I just move onto the next one. I really don't care if it falls because I know the next week another will take it's place.

That's the way I look at it.

Women are such a low priority to me right now (despite how much I talk about them) it's like "Okay, who's next?"

I hit a dry spell I say "Oh well, I got other sh!t to do anyway and a woman (or WOMEN, even worse!) will only slow me down"

 

[azanon]

I'm not a subscriber to plate theory. I don't have the time for it. I understand the concept of it but honestly I think you can be confident knowing one plate is enough. I spin one plate and if that falls I just move onto the next one. I really don't care if it falls because I know the next week another will take it's place.

Its probably more helpful simply from a theoretical standpoint. The real enemy is oneitis, and making poor decisions that comes from the infection. Plate theory is one of a few tools to more than deal with that.

As for the chaos of having multiple women that you have some level of a relationship with (including just physical ones), i'm not sure i'd even want the drama of multiple ones in my life at the same time either; even if i were single. Ok, maybe 2-4 prospects at any given time, but not much more than that. I fill my life up with tons of things I like to do; moderate work hours, sports, events, etc, so I don't even begin to have the time to deal with excessive drama from multiple women at the same time. And, interestingly enough, I think that's another major key to being desirable; that being, having a life.

I would say, be able to list at least 8 or so things you have going on in your life at any given time. "Women" should take up 1 slot max.

 

[Aenigma]

And you say single men with no plates spinning can still benefit from plate theory. How is this?

Plate theory says "spin more plates".

By saying that a single man with no plates can benefit, you are basically saying that he has enough confidence and self esteem to not NEED plate theory. Help me understand......

I understand what he's saying perfectly. Plate theory is nothing more then the realization that you don't need to "sweat" any one particular girl because you have more options.

Some men need to actively have these "plates" spinning to have this realization affect their inner emotions, actions and ******d affect- this is because their sense of self worth is insufficient to maintain the "plate theory" mentality- in other words they think they're losers or nothing special and need multiple women to validate their ego and worth.


Other men, those who understand plate theory, and how their own worth is an intrinsic part and at the very center of plate theory, don't need to actively need to spin plates. They know they're "The Great Catch" and their inner emotional state and their affect reflect this even when they have no plates spinning. They know that they can get a great woman at any time; as a result their mentality, in regards to women, is the same as if they had multiple plates spinning at that very moment.

To put it simply- plate theory is a mentality. Having multiple women is just one way of acquring and maintaining this mentality. The particular method of spinning multiple plates is a great way for men, who are use to thinking in terms of one plate, to acquire this mentality. Once one understands this mentality, and has inward and ******d self worth, one does not actually need to spin plates to reap the benefits of plate theory.

 

[ketostix]

I kind of agree with Str8up. Also my definition of one-itis probably varies from Rollo's. If you're with a woman, she's treating you good, and you're having strong and good feelings and emotions and she reciprocates, I don't consider that oneitis. I consider that being head over heels and in love with a girl. People have done this for years and more so in the past when "men were men", than nowadays.

I consider this a product of someone with normal and healthy feelings and emotions. What's the fun with being with a woman that doesn't make you feel a strong attraction towards?

If you succesfully obtain a girl you think is great, why do you need a theory of spinning plates. Seems to me that if you got one girl you really like and if for whatever reason you separate, you can find another. This just seems like a crutch for fear of losing the girl and not being able to replace her. And fear that if you feel too strongly about her, "you have a mental illness" and will lose her because of it.

Oneitis is chasing and being obsessed over a girl who's not reciprocating, period.

 

[Colossus]

Rollo-

I read the Allen Thompson article and the "identity crisis" article. Great reads, especially the last paragraph of the latter.

I can see the value of spinning plates for a single man not in a commited realtionship based on mutual respect. Its a simple, great concept that can keep perspectives in check.

But I dont think it is a universally applicable idea. Not every man can spin plates, nor does every man (or DJ, for that matter) want to. If the whole premise of it is maximizing options and maneuverability while minimizing the necessitous, take-what-i-can-get attitude, then what happens when all the plates are gone? What abput the times in life when there are no options, when youre shipwrecked on the proverbial desert island? Does your confidence come crashing to the floor, along with your ego?

I know the identity article answers alot of these questions, but i think plate theory is too often pimped to men who arent mentally equipped to apply it. Like you said, it becomes a technique, and is pimped as such.

I seldom find more than ONE girl i am interested in seeing, let alone multiples. If i happened to meet 2 or 3 or whatever that jive with what im looking for, then great; let the spinning begin. But feeling inadequate as a man because I am not seeing multiple women concurrently at my age is self-defeating. What if i dont LIKE multiple women? What if im not even on the same plane intellectually as most girls my age? Should i spin plates just because i need to keep my options open?

Im inclined to agree with armadon here. I see its value and would have no qualms actually doing it with the right women, but there isnt anything wrong per se with one at a time, if your confident with that.

 

[STR8UP]

I can see the value of spinning plates for a single man not in a commited realtionship based on mutual respect. Its a simple, great concept that can keep perspectives in check.

If you have the time and inclination, and are extroverted enough to handle being around other people OFTEN, than yea, it's an awesome concept.

But I dont think it is a universally applicable idea. Not every man can spin plates, nor does every man (or DJ, for that matter) want to.

Exactly.

My thing is that even when I have spare time, i don't have the desire to spend it fielding phone calls and texts, dealing with the inevitable "how many other women are you dating" (which I get asked all the timedespite the fact that I usually don't have a harem), and the worst part of it all......having to constantly find new recruits.

If the whole premise of it is maximizing options and maneuverability while minimizing the necessitous, take-what-i-can-get attitude, then what happens when all the plates are gone? What abput the times in life when there are no options, when youre shipwrecked on the proverbial desert island? Does your confidence come crashing to the floor, along with your ego?

That's why it's dangerous to rely exclusively on such a philosophy. Everyone goes through feasts and famines.

I'm interested to hear Rollo's reply to what I wrote earlier.

I seldom find more than ONE girl i am interested in seeing, let alone multiples. If i happened to meet 2 or 3 or whatever that jive with what im looking for, then great; let the spinning begin.

Right on the money.

I might only meet one chick every several months who meets my minimum criteria to date. I rule out 99% of them in the first convo.

And I'm not into dating to kill time, or for the sake of dating. that's what women do. Women are to compliment my life, not be the center of it.

I have to admit that at least part of this has to do with the fact that I'm not the cold approach kiind of guy. But even if I were, I don't even DESIRE to meet the sheer number of woomen I would have to meet to sift through and find some decent ones.

Should i spin plates just because i need to keep my options open?

That brings up an interesting point.

This is EXACTLY what women do.

They have no qualms about dating multiple men at various stages (sucking and fukking one, playing kissy face with two more, and keeping several AFC LJBF orbiters to fill in the gaps when she isn't getting the validation from the rest of her fan club)

So why shouldn't men do the same thing?

If you got the time and energy, go for it, I commend you, cause I don't!

Im inclined to agree with armadon here. I see its value and would have no qualms actually doing it with the right women, but there isnt anything wrong per se with one at a time, if your confident with that.

Yea, it's all about being content with or without one woman (or even ten).

There isn't a guy in the world who doesn't get an ego rush and a sense of empowerment from having options, but the REAL thing to strive for is understanding that you don't need ANY women to make your life better.

 

[wheelin&dealin]

even if you have a girlfriend, i still recommend asking out others. you just feel better about yourself.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Other men, those who understand plate theory, and how their own worth is an intrinsic part and at the very center of plate theory, don't need to actively need to spin plates. They know they're "The Great Catch" and their inner emotional state and their affect reflect this even when they have no plates spinning. They know that they can get a great woman at any time; as a result their mentality, in regards to women, is the same as if they had multiple plates spinning at that very moment.

Thank you for sparing me about an hour's worth of typing AENIGMA.

I seldom find more than ONE girl i am interested in seeing, let alone multiples. If i happened to meet 2 or 3 or whatever that jive with what im looking for, then great; let the spinning begin,...Should i spin plates just because i need to keep my options open?

The short answer is yes, but let me explain. I've gone into this before, but it bears repeating; too many guys see Plate Theory as a kind of second job. STR8UP and some of the others here bemoan a lack of patience or time or effort to run down all of these Plates they're spinning and how they need a personal secretary just to keep track of their schedules with all of them.

First off, I think this is a horsesh!t rationale for not even trying to entertain women non-exclusively. Sorry to be so blunt, but how many guys have really had the sack to even spin 2 plates much less as many as would really occupy all of their mental effort? Beware of making your necessity a virtue. Admittedly, Plate Theory is counterintuitive in practice - it feels wrong because it goes against what most guys have been conditioned to think is the only way to earn a woman's intimacy and this is establishing exclusivity. But bear in mind that many other aspects of DJ/PUA ideology is counterintuitive as well, but bear fruit when applied correctly; Neg Hits, C&F, takeaways, etc. These are foreign to most AFCs because they are diametrically opposite of what women have conditioned guys to think they want from guys. It is tough to train yourself to do what your instincts would tell you not to.

90% of the problems guys come to SS with can be distilled down to a fear of doing what's counterintuitive to them. Why is she in control of the relationship? Why do I have ONEitis? Why am I pre-whipped for every girl I meet? Why do I rationalize that I'm "how I am" even though I want to be different? All are about the disconnect of doing what seems backwards, but would achieve the desired results.

Secondly, the reason you only seem to "find ONE girl" at a time is directly attributable to this. You're simply not looking for more than one girl. The deprivation most guys experience when searching for female intimacy makes them focus on one solitary objective - securing that pussie. Men (at least before feminization) are based on reason and, for the most part, deductive logic. If I do A + B I will get C. Women say they want exclusivity in exchange for sex. I need sex, so the natural exchange will be exclusivity. When a man internalizes this he essentialy 'pre-qualifies' himself for a woman's intimacy. Unfortunately for us, not only do women not mean what they say, they operate from abstract logic. Circumstance and context, immediate emotion, mean more than information and reason. Men make the mistake that women are cognitive in the same way they are. THEY ARE NOT, and this precisely why women's behavior will bear out POOK's most famous observation to the point of predictability - Women would rather share a successful man than be saddled with a faithful loser.

The man with a psychology of monogamy priority is a pre-made tool for a woman. You automatically play into her frame and set the precident of her control for any future LTR or marriage. You are not the PRIZE, you are not a commodity she will compete for, because it's a foregone conclusion, as part of your mentality, that you WILL be exclusive with her. When you remove this competition anxiety, she relaxes, she makes less effort and you make more effort to achieve "her prize." You are (once again) in the position of qualifying for her intimacy due to this mutual, yet unspoken and unconscious recognition that she is the only source of you own sexual gratification now and in the future. She will ration the sex to you intermittently, she will ration her affirmation of you as she sees you conform to what she expects and approves of, and she will dictate what parts of your identity she accepts and what parts need to be fixed to better suit her acceptance, all because you subconsciously know you have NO OTHER VALID OPTIONS.

Your unconscious and intuitive, deductive, reasoning make the comparison that it seems better to deal with her in exclusivity and get the realatively "sure thing" of her sexuality on her terms than to develop new, potentially unreliable options with new women. So while we create rationales to reassure ourselves of our choice to stay optionless, we can't deny the other side of our own masculine logic that wonders if the trade off was really worth it. Bigger problems arise when these same rationales for convincing yourself that you're just a one-woman-guy transfer over into making life decisions about career, education, following ambition, acceptable responsibility and liability etc. This is the textbook definition of an AFC; the guy for whom a monogamous relationship with a woman is of primary importance to the extent that it influences his life's decision. Critics love to characterize Plate Theory as this scheme of psychological manipulation in a grand power play. Understand this, power isn't about controlling others, power is about the degree to which you have control over your own decisions. If a woman can psychologically convince you that you shouldn't have or develop other options - whether those options are other women or career opportunities - who is the more powerful player?

 

[ketostix]

RT, you make a good case and I don't question that plate theory isn't a solution to the problem. Having options is a solution, and having options usually requires spinning plates or juggling women. But is there no other way? What about nexting that's always suggested often here? A girl does something you don't like or fails to do what you want, so you cut her off, do a take away, next her. Instead of spinning plates what about being dominant with your girl, calling her on her sh!t, and setting the guidelines. She either complies, leaves, or you leave.

There's pitfalls in spinning plates too. These plates might not be meeting your needs, if you can't keep one woman "in line" what's to say your spinning plates won't result in you just being beta'd by several women instead of just one, etc.

This is where I really question your viewpoint,

Understand this, power isn't about controlling others, power is about the degree to which you have control over your own decisions.

But maybe it is about controlling your woman's behavior. Having control over your own decisions seems to require some control over her. In life, it seems to me a lot of people have power through controlling others, whether do this by being smooth and convincing, by deception or by threat of punishment. You just seem to be saying you can't get too close to one woman without losing all power and control.