Not sure what direction to take career wise

[:-)]

Fallacious analogy: all the trades except actor require licensing and you have a higher-education degree in writing.

Herein is a random website I chose. Name five things that can be improved:

http://www.kistnersflowers.com/

Why is it a fallacious argument? If you started boxing, would you start telling people how great you were and how many people you were going to knock out and turn up to a fight without first training?

I have a higher education degree in a highly specialised subject - screen and stage writing. Most copywriting advice I'm getting is to 'unlearn' everything I've learnt! Also they are advising I first learn how to write copy.

I could tell you what to improve with that website but it would just be an educated guess - like making block heavy text more web friendly. I do not understand the science to writing copy at the moment. There is a science to it just as there is a science to writing film scripts. I would like to learn that science and become an authority on it just like I would be if you asked me to improve a script. If I shoved a script under your nose would you be able to tell me how to improve it? I doubt it. Unless you know about structure, dialogue, subtext, characterisation etc etc.

Give me a mediocre script to improve and I will do that no questions asked. But web copy? I haven't got a clue. You might as well ask me how to perform open heart surgery for all I know on the subject.

Here's one copywriter's response to me:

"I write copy for investment newsletter publishers. That's it. I can pretty much guarantee you that if you cold called 5 of them, you'd have somebody interested in your services.

But they'd want samples of good copy - and clearly you're not there yet.

My point is this...

You're setting yourself up for failure if you're cold-calling people who don't even know what a copywriter is. You might as well call plumbers and ask them if they need your screenwriting services.

Out of 200 you could get 2 to meet with you - because there are always people afraid to say no - but you'll get no sales.

Back to florists...

What if you did get a sale? You'd essentially be stealing from them because at this point, you can't help them.

If I were you, this is what I'd do...

First decide whether you want to write B2C or B2B. B2C can be a lot more lucrative because of the royalties but you can make a damn good living at B2B too.

So - decide that first.

Then narrow down what kind of copy you want to write.

- maybe long form sales letters for newsletter publishers?
- maybe whitepapers for B2B software companies?

Narrow it down to a specific group that you can help.

Let's say you want to write whitepapers for B2B software companies.

Make a list of 50 ideal target companies. Call them and ask for the Marketing Communications manager. They may not have that title but you'll get to the right place eventually.

Ask your contact if they ever use outside writers.

Guaranteed some will - and they'll want to know more about what you do.

Explain to them that you are a writer that specializes in creating lead generation pieces like whitepapers. Tell them that since you are just getting started that you don't have samples to show but you have an amazing offer for them.

Tell them that you'll write a whitepaper for free for them - or at least the first 2 pages.

Then if they like where you are going, they can pay you to write the rest.

This is called writing on spec.

Guaranteed, somebody in that 50 is going to take you up on the offer - there's no risk to them.

Tell them you need 2 or 3 weeks. Don't worry - they are not in a hurry.

Then go buy a course on how to write whitepapers. Come here and ask which one is best.

Deliver your spec whitepaper on time and wait for feedback.

If they want to move forward, you've got your first paying project. If not, go find another prospect. You'll improve your copy as you go anyway.

Do a bang-up job on that one and now you've got your first portfolio piece.

Now, call more companies but don't write on spec - you now have a real sample piece to show. So charge them full rate.

Then start positioning yourself as a whitepaper specialist and start attracting leads to your website. Maybe write a book.

Eventually people will start calling you.

You have to decide what you want to write and for whom. And you have to choose a market that knows what copywriting is. That will make your life so much easier.

Then you have to really learn to write copy. It can be fairly easy (as in the case with the whitepaper example) or difficult (long form sales letters)."

Here is another response:

"You're trying to sell a skill that you don't possess.

But when you do make some money let me know as I'd love to manage your investment portfolio for you. I've never actually traded stocks before and I don't have a clue how to do it. But I have seen the movie Wall Street so I'm sure I'll figure it out as I go.

How much would you like to invest with me?"

 

[guru1000]

Six years ago, I lost my entire savings and stock portfolio. Although I was a registered, seasoned, and proficient stockbroker, I somehow managed to lose 100% of my portfolio in the 2008 recession. So much for experience and education, right?

Between 2002 and 2007, I was retired, living off the appreciation of my stock portfolio. In 2008, not only was I insolvent, but I also owed Uncle Sam a few hundred thousand in taxes. I wished not to return to the stock business—my only profession--as the OTC market spreads and laws changed significantly; thus pay was compromised.

I was at my bottom: No support, no liquidity, as hopelessness entrenched my soul. Sound familiar?

One day, I thought: Why don’t I pitch small businesses to augment revenue on a sliding scale commensurate with my compensation. But, what experience did I have in “augmenting revenue” with industries I was not familiar. I recall clearly ALL the naysayers saying “Hey, that is a stupid idea,” “What do you know about businesses’ bottom line,” “You have no experience, what are you doing?” I heard it all. And the more negative feedback I received, the greater my motivation grew, specifically to prove the naysayers wrong. The motivation transmuted to an unwavering conviction that I would prosper, irrespective of the potential challenges.

The first business that I closed was a cell phone store. That is right, a cell phone store: What did I know about cell phones? I had no liquidity, thus unable to hire cold callers. I cold-called myself: “Pete, come into the store; we are running a promo …” I called 10 –hours a day and scheduled 10+ appointments a day. In 120 days, store sales doubled, as I took 25% of the company stock, and royalties with each phone sale, as agreed. I eventually hired 10 telemarketers, and in 2011, the store’s volume was second largest in the Brooklyn area.

Since, I have entered into agreements with over 12 companies; four of which are now publicly traded instruments, and have value only because of the revenue growth engendered by my efforts. Ironically, three of these companies are self start-ups in areas in which I had no previous experience or education. I learned the trades proficiently as demand for my services grew. My clients are happy evidenced by repeat business and their referrals.

The difference between you and I; the naysayers motivated me. If you are looking to find support to quit, you will easily find it everywhere. Society is replete with opinions on each end of the spectrum. And as you look, so shall you find! I invested my time into you. Perhaps, I should have qualified your fortitude better before engaging. I asked you to name five improvements in the foregoing website; you mentioned only one. You have no conviction in this venture, so I am respectfully going to eject. As much as I would like to help you, too much of my time, which I have very little of, is committed to change your thinking, which remains resolute in your homeostatic condition.

 

[:-)]

Six years ago, I lost my entire savings and stock portfolio. Although I was a registered, seasoned, and proficient stockbroker, I somehow managed to lose 100% of my portfolio in the 2008 recession. So much for experience and education, right?

Between 2002 and 2007, I was retired, living off the appreciation of my stock portfolio. In 2008, not only was I insolvent, but I also owed Uncle Sam a few hundred thousand in taxes. I wished not return to the stock business—my only profession--as the OTC market spreads and laws changed significantly; thus pay was compromised.

I was at my bottom: No support, no liquidity, as hopelessness entrenched my soul. Sound familiar?

One day, I thought: Why don’t I pitch small businesses to augment revenue on a sliding scale commensurate with my compensation. But, what experience did I have in “augmenting revenue” with industries I was not familiar. I recall clearly ALL the naysayers saying “Hey, that is a stupid idea,” “What do you know about businesses’ bottom line,” “You have no experience, what are you doing?” I heard it all. And the more negative feedback I received, the greater my motivation grew, specifically to prove the naysayers wrong. The motivation transmuted to an unwavering conviction that I would prosper, irrespective of the potential challenges.

The first business that I closed was a cell phone store. That is right, a cell phone store: What did I know about cell phones? I had no liquidity, thus unable to hire cold callers. I cold-called myself: “Pete, come into the store; we are running a promo …” I called 10 –hours a day and scheduled 10+ appointments a day. In 120 days, store sales doubled, as I took 25% of the company stock, and royalties with each phone sale, as agreed. I eventually hired 10 telemarketers, and in 2011, the store’s volume was second largest in the Brooklyn area.

Since, I have entered into agreements with over 12 companies; four of which are now publicly traded instruments, and have value only because of the revenue growth engendered by my efforts. Ironically, three of these publicly traded companies are self start-ups in the debt, real estate, and merchant processing areas—all areas in which I had no previous experience or education. I learned the trades proficiently as demand for my services grew. My clients are happy evidenced by repeat business and their referrals.

The difference between you and I; the naysayers motivated me. If you are looking to find support to quit, you will easily find it everywhere. Society is replete with opinions on each end of the spectrum. And as you look, so shall you find! I invested my time into you. Perhaps, I should have qualified your fortitude better before engaging. I asked you to name five improvements in the foregoing website; you mentioned only one. You have no conviction in this venture, so I am respectfully going to eject. As much as I would like to help you, too much of my time, which I have very little of, is committed to change your thinking, which remains resolute in your homeostatic condition.

Fallacious argument. I was advised to set up as a copywriter and that is what I have done.

There are no naysayers nor is anyone telling me to quit being a copywriter. The reverse is true. They are telling me to learn to write copy. Nor am I looking to quit.

It is the cold-calling approach selling skills I do not have that I have issue with. It is one thing selling cell phones, a tangible product regardless of your lack of knowledge about them, and quite another to call businesses claiming to have skills I do not possess. It is the equivalent of promoting cell phones that you don't have.

I honestly don't see the problem with waiting until I know what I am talking about before cold-calling and the fact that it is a problem raises a red flag. What's the hurry?

This is also my time and money. Neither have I qualified you although many would have quite rightly done so. I asked you who you were but you ignored my request. Forgive me if I am a little nervous about taking business advice from some anonymous guy off the internet especially when experienced copywriters are telling me I'm making a mistake.

I thank you for the time and advice you did invest though and am sorry you have decided to give up (quit) on me.

 

[:-)]

5 ways to improve that website:

1) Make text more web-user friendly and less text heavy.
2) Make it look more dynamic and less bland - titles etc
3) Too many chapters/choices. Dumb it down and simplify.
4) Create a brand identity for the company. One that would separate them from their competition and make them stand out.
5) Suggest pictures that don't look so kitschy. The whole thing has a kitschy look and feel about it. Funk it up a bit.

^
This is just an educated guess using common sense. Anyone could have told you that.

 

[guru1000]

If common sense, then why does the website exist in this format? Your recommendations may feel like common sense, but they are your specialized knowledge conditioned over 18 years of education.

If you were to assign a monetary value to your recommendations, envisioning the finished product in comparison to its existing format, what would that number be?

Perhaps, a change in identity is needed. You are not Smile the copyrighter; you are Smile the entrepreneur. Now if you were to close a client for $3500 for a literature overhaul, but felt the scope of work was outside your element because you are "unqualified" (which btw is not the case , but let's take this position) what would Smile the entrepreneur do to rightly serve this client?

 

[:-)]

If common sense, then why does the website exist in this format? Your recommendations may feel like common sense, but they are your specialized knowledge conditioned over 18 years of education.

If you were to assign a monetary value to your recommendations, envisioning the finished product in comparison to its existing format, what would that number be?

Perhaps, a change in identity is needed. You are not Smile the copyrighter; you are Smile the entrepreneur. Now if you were to close a client for $3500 for a literature overhaul, but felt the scope of work was outside your element because you are "unqualified" (which btw is not the case , but let's take this position) what would Smile the entrepreneur do to rightly serve this client?

I don't know what rate I would charge. I guess being a free market I could charge anything.

What would I do to rightly serve them? I don't understand the question.

147 shoe shops.
83 hang ups.
0 appointments.

 

[the third eye]

I read this whole thread and honestly, I am a bit disappointed. Forget about smiley guru. He's not serious. Mentor me. I will not disappoint. I am a musician, music producer and young entrepreneur. I have my own place of business and it is time for me to generate revenue. Guide me. I will not squander your blessing. Once I start working with some more well known people in the industry maybe I can introduce you to a few artists you admire.

 

[playa99]

I've read this whole thread and here's my input.

Smiley does not have a service that he can currently offer, however he has the attributes to enable him to make a product seem high value (masters degree.)

Getting sales in by whatever method you choose is obviously the #1 aim of business, who doesn't want to make a LOT of money.

BUT

Smiley has no foundation to grow from, he has no portfolio yet he is trying to charge a premium for something he has never done in his life.

In the industry I work in, there are a lot of people who get basic qualifications in the field with no experience, set up a company and they do fail because they haven't took the time to understand the product there offering!

You have a high level of education with a subject related to the service your offering, experience in a sales capacity from working for an estate agents and the will to succeed, these are the key things you need.

Clients are going to be paying you yearly, just like my company, so first things first you need to decide your whole scope of services and why this has enough value to keep the client coming back on a yearly basis.Draft up a price list and DM it to me.

I disagree with cold calling and burning bridges by getting hang ups, if your targetting particular business's in a certain area you are going to ruin any chance of getting business by turning the people off.

Once you've got your price list set in stone you need to gain a good experience of copywriting, prove that your services are good and start getting some sales.

I would call companies until you have 5 who are willing to accept free copywriting advice for a year which should not take long!

I have run out of time due to my break being over at work, I will be posting more advice later!

 

[Tenacity]

While I'm very late to this thread, I wanted to offer some suggestions. First of all, guru provided a lot of valuable information in this thread, the issue is that I don't believe the OP has the experience, business savvy, etc. to truly know what to even do with it.

The OP has advanced degrees in Writing with no professional experience at all, he did in fact say he produced some projects in relation to Writing, but from what I'm taking from that, it wasn't consistent enough to put on a resume as true professional experience. Bottom line, a Master's degree in Writing with no true consistent work within the Writing industry in terms of anything such as graphic design, writing articles, columns, hell even a blog. Furthermore, a Writing degree is a horrible degree to have. If you are going to complete a college degree please do it in a STEM.

The advice provided in this thread to the OP, was to start his own business and compete against established companies in the marketplace that he's in? With all due respect, that's just foolish advice. Again, I say with all due respect because guru provided a lot of valuable information.

However, the OP is wasting his time and the little financial resources he might have trying to create a successful start-up right now with NO experience, no legal resources, no capital, no real FIELD training, no business savvy, no partners/mentors within the industry, no network, no market research, no concrete business plan with REAL quality forecasts to determine sales/expenses/profit/ROI, no nothing, just a hope and a prayer.

With that being said, if I were you OP right now, I would stay at the Call Center with the $28,500 income a year and network to get into a 2nd position within the Writing related industry for a COMPANY paying you a low base or hourly wage. This will allow you to develop whatever NICHE you want to focus on within the very broad Writing industry and learn the business side of things before you just try to jump out and compete against experienced and established people. That's not me being "negative" that's giving you honest, real world advice from someone with the experience AND with the host of degrees to know what he's talking about.

 

[sylvester the cat]

The advice given to OP is the advice of a madman. To be an entrepreneur one has to be slightly insane in order to think outside the box. OP is clearly too sane in his thinking as indeed most are.

 

[Konada]

The advice given to OP is the advice of a madman. To be an entrepreneur one has to be slightly insane in order to think outside the box. OP is clearly too sane in his thinking as indeed most are.

Wise words. guru1000 gave you very very solid advice on being an entrepreneur who SPECIALIZES in writing. I hope you re-read your whole thread and digest it again... Is this copywriting venture a WANT or MUST to you? Think hard before you continue forth.

I find it hard to believe that a person with a masters in stage writing is unable invoke emotions in the audience (consumers), its all sales 101. Target your customer needs! Make them feel your service is of value! I have a feeling your sales pitch is coming off too content heavy and cold. At this point I think your shortcoming is selling yourself, you definitely have the ability to succeed in this field.

Personally I would've accepted the florist offer on the basis of 5 referrals once sales sees a positive increase (did I mention it works for your portfolio as well?). Focus on getting the word out on yourself, build your network before offering premium prices for your services. The copywriter gave you some good advice but I disagree about the plumber part, anyone looking to turn their trade into an enterprise HAS TO ENTER THE INTERNET BUSINESS at this time and age. Once you get people calling you, the momentum gets better and at this point I would probably do a 2 CHOOSE 1 offer of:

1. $3000 & 5 referrals
2. $5000 premium

You definitely have the ability to do so Smiley, Bill Gates himself proclaimed to have built Microsoft (back then) when he didn't even started on it.

 

[dasein]

I think some folks have some mistaken impressions about what copywriting is. It is not some "craft" or "trade" that requires licensure or specialized talent. It requires only the ability to write and edit clean text in accordance with existing customer materials and desires. I dated two marketing heads of medium sized companies in the past. They were constantly hiring contract copywriting, kept a list. The contractors were housewives with undergrad degrees, not some big sophisticated players in the "writing market" lol.

 

[sylvester the cat]

I think some folks have some mistaken impressions about what copywriting is. It is not some "craft" or "trade" that requires licensure or specialized talent. It requires only the ability to write and edit clean text in accordance with existing customer materials and desires. I dated two marketing heads of medium sized companies in the past. They were constantly hiring contract copywriting, kept a list. The contractors were housewives with undergrad degrees, not some big sophisticated players in the "writing market" lol.

Neither does being a pick up artist need licensing but this doesn't mean any old afc is going to find success with women without first learning the fundamentals such as inner game and the rules of engagement.

The first thing anyone on this site is told before beginning game is to read the DJ bible. To not do so would be like going to war without armor. :nono:

 

[sylvester the cat]

So I have a degree in Writing. A BA but not with honors as I failed to complete the last module. I also have a Masters degree in Writing for Stage & Screen. So education wise it's pretty specialised which narrows things for me.

My question is: You obviously wanted to go into writing for film so why have you given this up? You've spent the time and money studying for it so why hit the delete button and take up something else?

What makes you think you'll be a success in a field you have no experience in when you haven't made a success of the field you do have experience in? I would advise you think long and hard about what it is you want and either stay in that call centre or make a serious go of the film writing. Most certainly I would not advise some half baked plan of starting your own business in something you know nothing about!

 

[Tenacity]

Right @ Sylvester, same thing I said. Running a start-up takes a lot of resources, research, etc. that I listed above. While I'm all for the positive motivational "rah rah" speeches that you usually hear on Investment/Wealth Forums, I believe they do more harm than good because sending out a novice to start his own business in a field he has no previous experience in....is like dropping off someone butt naked in the middle of Antarctica.

 

[sylvester the cat]

sending out a novice to start his own business in a field he has no previous experience in....is like dropping off someone butt naked in the middle of Antarctica.

Which is exactly what happened to OP as soon as he voiced his (well-founded) concerns to his 'mentor'. He got dropped. Personally, I wouldn't trust anyone who uses language that serves to obfuscate rather than instruct clearly. It shows intent to deceive.

 

[guru1000]

Tenacity and Sylvester, you are both right!

If you two were to enter into this venture, you would fail. Confidence, patience, persistence, tenacity, and discipline (inner game) as well as a concrete modus operandi (outer-game) are mastered by the few. Accordingly, most start-ups will fail. Not a venture worth pursuing.

Diametrically, if I entered into the copyrighting arena with no formal education, no training, and no capital--as a start-up venture--I would succeed. As we are cut by different cloth. But in all due fairness, this is my trade as a VC.

Yes, Smile brought up legitimate concerns. All concerns become legitimate once you invest into them. But obstacles which hamper success can only manifest by the thinker. Successful entrepreneurs don’t allow their “shortcomings” to preclude their vision. Copyrighting is not education specific. You need grammatical mastery and an eye for rhetoric. My secretary with a Bachelor’s degree in Education copyrights in her free time--for the past 12 years. Is she a fraud? lol. Maybe, I should fire her.

But then again … I could just be a keyboard jockey; guess we’ll never know.

 

[sylvester the cat]

Is your secretary a Copyrighter or a Copywriter? Is she a content/article writer or does she write copy to sell and position a brand for a specific market?

Article writing and content writing for sure requires grammatical mastery and an eye for rhetoric but copywriting is a specific type of writing. Writing to sell. A rudimentary knowledge of psychology, marketing and brand positioning are required to write copy more so than grammatical mastery.

If you think it's so easy, write us a sales letter for the new iphone 6 (a product that sells itself) and let's see how you fare?

 

[guru1000]

psychology, marketing and brand positioning are required to write copy.

You're right, Smile's Master's education in "State and Screen" has no correlation.

If you think it's so easy, write us a sales letter for the new iphone 6 (a product that sells itself) and let's see how you fare?

Again, you're right; much harder to promote an Apple product via sales letters than the start-ups I have grown accustomed to.

Do you wish to keep digging a bigger hole? lol

On a serious note Sylvester, what is it exactly that you do for a living?

 

[sylvester the cat]

I work in a call centre on minimum wage.