Nice Guys

[zekko]

I've been hearing the expression "Nice guys finish last" my entire life. I'm sure it originates from before I was born. It certainly wasn't invented by the manosphere. I noticed there are two general schools of thought on nice guys in the manosphere:

1a) This is the "Nice Guy" as defined by PUAs. This is someone who feels entitled to a woman having sex with him just because he is nice. He is actually manipulative, because he expects that if he behaves nicely toward a woman, she will reward him by having sex with him. Which often does not work, of course. In this case, his being nice is not sincere or genuine at all, he has ulterior motives. In reality, this "Nice Guy" is actually a manipulative jerk.

2a) The second school of thought is backed up by research. It shows that people with a high degree of the trait "agreeableness" tend to be less successful. Basically, these people are too passive, they tend to be followers, they are satisfied with being a cog in the machine. They tend to be easily manipulated by others or bent to their will. They aren't proactive, they don't seek to enforce their own will, or achieve their own goals. They're going along with the crowd, or serving the leader.

OR if you look at if from a different angle:

1b) Same as the above 1a, the "Nice Guy" isn't a real nice guy, he's a manipulative jerk, he's incongruent, and that's why women don't respond to him.

2b) These guys simply believe that women genuinely do not like acts of kindness, they do not like good men, they want thugs, bullies, @ssholes, criminals, they like to write to guys on death row. They believe that treating a women well or with respect is the kiss of death, and that they will only be attracted to men who mistreat them, cheat on them, or care nothing for them.

Of all the above, I believe 2a is closest to the truth. But the problem with these guys is not that they are kind, it's that they are passive.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

I've been hearing the expression "Nice guys finish last" my entire life. I'm sure it originates from before I was born. It certainly wasn't invented by the manosphere. I noticed there are two general schools of thought on nice guys in the manosphere:

1a) This is the "Nice Guy" as defined by PUAs. This is someone who feels entitled to a woman having sex with him just because he is nice. He is actually manipulative, because he expects that if he behaves nicely toward a woman, she will reward him by having sex with him. Which often does not work, of course. In this case, his being nice is not sincere or genuine at all, he has ulterior motives. In reality, this "Nice Guy" is actually a manipulative jerk.

2a) The second school of thought is backed up by research. It shows that people with a high degree of the trait "agreeableness" tend to be less successful. Basically, these people are too passive, they tend to be followers, they are satisfied with being a cog in the machine. They tend to be easily manipulated by others or bent to their will. They aren't proactive, they don't seek to enforce their own will, or achieve their own goals. They're going along with the crowd, or serving the leader.

OR if you look at if from a different angle:

1b) Same as the above 1a, the "Nice Guy" isn't a real nice guy, he's a manipulative jerk, he's incongruent, and that's why women don't respond to him.

2b) These guys simply believe that women genuinely do not like acts of kindness, they do not like good men, they want thugs, bullies, @ssholes, criminals, they like to write to guys on death row. They believe that treating a women well or with respect is the kiss of death, and that they will only be attracted to men who mistreat them, cheat on them, or care nothing for them.

Of all the above, I believe 2a is closest to the truth. But the problem with these guys is not that they are kind, it's that they are passive.

Most people dont appreciate things they didn't earn.

On the women we all know many women are excited by a degree of danger in men. And some actually do like criminals.

I dont think most nice guys are manipulative. That is the minority.

Nice guys simply dont understand women. They like her and want to treat her well but she never deserved it.

Thats my honest opinion even after all the bullshyt.

And some women really do like a "bad man".

 

[zekko]

On the women we all know many women are excited by a degree of danger in men. And some actually do like criminals.
<snip>
And some women really do like a "bad man".

No question.
Of course, that doesn't mean all women want to date a wife beater or a serial killer.
And the ones that do aren't the ones that make for the best relationships.

 

[Robert28]

Nice guys aren’t who modern day women claim they are. Women ASSume that ALL nice guys are nice ONLY to them, they can’t fathom that a dude is just nice in general not just some woman he’s interested in. Nice guys make women take a good hard look in the mirror and they don’t like what they see. They are ridden with guilt because they think “wow I’ve settled for so long for less than I deserve, here comes this dude who’s different”. Nice guys don’t play games, if I want to text you I will text you. I won’t wait a certain time to wait to text back so as to not look needy. I’m gonna snow up on time when I say I’ll be somewhere, not because you’re special but because I’m on time everywhere.
Now I’m not saying that there aren’t types you’ve mentioned in your post, there are, but I think when a woman finds out a dude is nice and has his **** together, she lumps him in with all the other stereotypes of nice guys and he doesn’t stand a chance.

Hell, just tonight I was turned down because of my name. No lie. I was at a bar with some friends and this woman approached me and is all interested. Then she asked my name. Turns out I had the same name as her ex......from 8 years ago, who I guess she’s still hung up on. I say that because she made the comment “I can’t date another Robert because my ex was named Robert and he just turns my stomach upside down so I’d be reminded of that every time we went out”. It was the stupidity reason to give that I’ve ever heard. Now, I could have begged and pleaded with her to give me a chance because after all she approached me and was highly interested until she found out My name. She apologized about her pathetic reason and I was just like “wait, you’re serious about this? I thought you were making a joke”. Nope, dead serious. I kindly said “fvck off” and turned my back to her. Most nice guys would have kept on trying but I put an end to that bs quick. My nice guy wore off lol

 

[KindredSpiritzz]

Hell, just tonight I was turned down because of my name.

we'll I could never date a Gertrude or an Agnes so I kinda understand that. Course if they were really hot I could probably be persuaded.

 

[Mike32ct]

I’ve thought about this a lot and think that the nice guy thing is a red herring.

If she’s attracted to your looks, she won’t care if you’re a good guy or a bastard. She will find a excuse to appreciate either, even if it requires some mental gymnastics to justify it.

 

[xplt]

I dont think most nice guys are manipulative. That is the minority.

I think they are. At least, they don't show integrity. Projecting a false self for getting your way is manipulative in my eyes.

Show me someone who behaves the same way in every envoirement. At work, at home, with family... I know way too much guys who adopt their behavior just how they think they need it right now.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

Nice guys aren’t who modern day women claim they are. Women ASSume that ALL nice guys are nice ONLY to them, they can’t fathom that a dude is just nice in general not just some woman he’s interested in. Nice guys make women take a good hard look in the mirror and they don’t like what they see. They are ridden with guilt because they think “wow I’ve settled for so long for less than I deserve, here comes this dude who’s different”. Nice guys don’t play games, if I want to text you I will text you. I won’t wait a certain time to wait to text back so as to not look needy. I’m gonna snow up on time when I say I’ll be somewhere, not because you’re special but because I’m on time everywhere.
Now I’m not saying that there aren’t types you’ve mentioned in your post, there are, but I think when a woman finds out a dude is nice and has his **** together, she lumps him in with all the other stereotypes of nice guys and he doesn’t stand a chance.

Hell, just tonight I was turned down because of my name. No lie. I was at a bar with some friends and this woman approached me and is all interested. Then she asked my name. Turns out I had the same name as her ex......from 8 years ago, who I guess she’s still hung up on. I say that because she made the comment “I can’t date another Robert because my ex was named Robert and he just turns my stomach upside down so I’d be reminded of that every time we went out”. It was the stupidity reason to give that I’ve ever heard. Now, I could have begged and pleaded with her to give me a chance because after all she approached me and was highly interested until she found out My name. She apologized about her pathetic reason and I was just like “wait, you’re serious about this? I thought you were making a joke”. Nope, dead serious. I kindly said “fvck off” and turned my back to her. Most nice guys would have kept on trying but I put an end to that bs quick. My nice guy wore off lol

I don't think it's mostly women complaining about "nice guys", it's other men. Men who definitely don't want to be forced to do what the "nice guy" does for women to compete. Women do use "nice guys" and are entitled to do so. "nice guys" don't understand women, and don't understand people. Or perhaps they are sheltered around groups of people who would treat them the same.

Once the "nice guy" learns that the woman who he is adoring would never be as nice to him in turn, and actually detests him for treating her so well, especially when she knows she doesn't deserve it and doesn't even like him he will learn.

 

[Robert28]

I don't think it's mostly women complaining about "nice guys", it's other men. Men who definitely don't want to be forced to do what the "nice guy" does for women to compete. Women do use "nice guys" and are entitled to do so. "nice guys" don't understand women, and don't understand people. Or perhaps they are sheltered around groups of people who would treat them the same.

Once the "nice guy" learns that the woman who he is adoring would never be as nice to him in turn, and actually detests him for treating her so well, especially when she knows she doesn't deserve it and doesn't even like him he will learn.

Basically don’t do anything for her that you wouldn’t do for anyone else. Don’t give her any special, above and beyond treatment. She’s likely to think you’re only nice to her and that’s ok, that’s her mistake for thinking that.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

Basically don’t do anything for her that you wouldn’t do for anyone else. Don’t give her any special, above and beyond treatment. She’s likely to think you’re only nice to her and that’s ok, that’s her mistake for thinking that.

Yep and it kills attraction anyway. But folks learn on their own timetable.

 

[Black Widow Void]

There's a difference between the 'self-proclaimed' "nice guy" and a "nice guy."
Embarrassingly,I hate admitting that I've been on both sides.

Think of it like this... there's a certain type of person that will do good deeds... but he *must* let this be known to everyone. Is this person being altruistic? Not at all. This (so-called) "generous" person is motivated by what is in it for them (praise, recognition, status etc.., )
This is no different than the 'self-proclaimed' nice guy. Neither are being genuine or authentically "nice."

When we view the (so-called) "jerk" , it's normally not the jerk-like qualities that women find attractive. Instead, it's his self-assurdness. He has not subconsciously appointed a female as his 'base' for approval or happiness (as demonstrated by the self-proclaimed "nice guy") . No woman wants to be in that position. She doesn't want to feel like a man or a mother to a child.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Being nice is not bad. Women actually love nice guys. Its why they are nice that is the problem.
They do whatever the woman wants and agree with whatever they say regardless of what they actually believe. They are fake and its not hard to see through it after a while.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

Being nice is not bad. Women actually love nice guys. Its why they are nice that is the problem.
They do whatever the woman wants and agree with whatever they say regardless of what they actually believe. They are fake and its not hard to see through it after a while.

So you think a man whose been enchanted behind a female and is stupidly overly agreeable is "fake"? There are different type of nice guys. One is the naive one and another is manipulative.

Most real manipulative guys wont do much giving at all. And the others will follow for a short period of time to gain access.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

I think they are. At least, they don't show integrity. Projecting a false self for getting your way is manipulative in my eyes.

Show me someone who behaves the same way in every envoirement. At work, at home, with family... I know way too much guys who adopt their behavior just how they think they need it right now.

People say they do but imho folks act a little different at home, at work and with different groups.

 

[Infern0]

Nice guys are created by a domineering mother.

They learn young that being "nice" and doing things will get mother to treat them better.

They continue that strategy with women as an adult and never get anywhere with it.

There's always a nice bubbling layer of resentment and vitriol just under the surface.

The manosphere needs to check these guys because they are going into dating with an ignorant and disingenuous strategy which is doomed for failure, then going MGTOW when they don't get results.

It's like a boxer who doesn't train then goes into a fight and plays straight into his opponents strategy, gets ko'd then talks a bunch of trash after the fight.

That's how I see them MGTOWS

 

[wifehunter]

Nice guys have no frame, and will melt into a pile of goo, the moment their idealized world view is challenged. AKA 'butt hurt'

 

[flowtheory]

Women love nice guys. They all want a nice guy. But I think the term ‘nice guy’ is actually mixed up with ‘good guy’. So when women say “why can’t I just meet a nice guy?” They’re actually seeking and desiring a good guy.

Nice guys as we men know it, is better known as ‘friendzone’. It’s the guy with no back bone who will let the woman call the shots and won’t challenge her, won’t stick up for his beliefs, and ultimately is afraid to lose her whilst operating with no autonomy. He’s governed by her perception of him. External validation as fuel. He chooses the route of least resistance, which leads him to his perceived cake; her affection and attention. Operating under the idea that this is what will win her heart — “happy wife, happy life” is their motto.
The woman could like this for a month or maybe even stay with it, but ultimately there is no struggle for her own growth and it becomes boring. She fantasies about better and will monkey branch at the given opportunity.

The good guy on the other hand operates from his own sovereignty. He is self motivated and doesn’t seek her approval, but can appreciate her praise, and is open to her thoughts, but ultimately relies on himself to make the call.
Her words and actions don't create his perception of self. He has a backbone and is willing to challenge her if the occasion arises. He has opinions and asserts his beliefs in all environments. He stands for something no matter how small or grand. He takes care of himself and in turn showcases ability to care for her without putting himself out just for her sake. He’s a leader of his own life. And in turn this projects strength. He doesn’t have to be the total alpha. But he’s an alpha in his own right. He takes total responsibility for everything HE can control. His ultimate goal in life is growth and strength, which leads to passion. Passion is his vibe and in turn women open up to this, physically and mentally. It’s not just about a woman. It can’t be.

And in the end, a good guy/great guy, is kind, empathetic, compassionate, understanding and safe.
All of the above is an amalgamation of a true man. Masculinity at its core.

Women seek safety. And nice guys are actually dangerous for them, because a nice guy NEEDS. And if his needs aren’t met.. who is he without this thing he allows to define him? A ticking time bomb.

 

[MillionBillionaire]

"You wanna know what you get by being nice? You get on WELFARE." Kelly from 'The City'


Those words resignates with me so hard I have been echoing it in my head for the last few days.

Nothing wrong with being nice because you want to be nice. I wanted to support a local youth chess club so I donated some money and complimented the youngins on what a good job they are doing.

That is what I consider "nice"....

There is another kind of "nice" It's the "Can I buy you a drink? Do you need a ride after the bar? wanna cry about a guy for hours while I listen?" this is the other kind of nice but to me it's just called Stupid.

 

[sosousage]

not worth to be nice because people are evil

 

[Mike32ct]

I’ve thought about this a lot and think that the nice guy thing is a red herring.

If she’s attracted to your looks, she won’t care if you’re a good guy or a bastard. She will find a excuse to appreciate either, even if it requires some mental gymnastics to justify it.

Just an add on...

While some women clearly ARE attracted to bad men, my point is that, for most men, don’t TRY to be bad if you’re not naturally that type of guy. Just looks-max and be yourself.

I also want to reinforce MrGoodstuff’s point that most nice guys are NOT intentionally trying to be manipulative. They are just naive (and perhaps clueless) at worst. Such a guy might genuinely believe that his dream Stacey is a goddess to be worshiped lol.