Myth: endurance exercise makes you scrawny.

StringShredder

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When bodybuilders think of marathon runners, they call to mind magazine-cover images of world-class elites busting through the finish-line tape. The images are of ripped torsos and gaunt faces, but with low muscle mass in the upper body, and even lower legs. Conclusion: running makes you slender.

The problem with that is that elite long distance runners are not typical long distance runners. They are members of a rare breed who is genetically selected for the sport, and heavily optimized to perform well. Their bodies look that way because that's part of what makes the difference between a 2:08 marathon, and a 2:18 marathon. They deliberately allow their bodies to look that way. The training that they do isn't directly responsible for that appearance. For an analogy, consider the track-and-field sport of hammer throwing. Hammer throwers are, shall we say, big. They don't get that way from throwing the hammer.

To see what long-distance runners look like, go to the starting area of a local marathon before the gun goes off. You will find all kinds of body types, male and female. If you are to follow those bodies through the race, you would be surprised, too. The stereotypical long-distance champion bodies will dominate the front pack, but after that, it's unpredictable. The chubby 43 year old guy with a spare tire around the middle may well be seen bounding past the ripped 27 year old six pack abs at the 17 mile mark.

Here is what one 34 year old long-distance runner looks like, namely me!

http://xs404.xs.to/pics/05126/pose-5-shrunk.jpg

That's a candid shot of what I look like everyday. No special preparation, no oil on the skin, just kneeling on my bed with an overhead 60 watt bulb, that's it. It should be obvious that while I'm not a body builder, I have somewhat bigger deltoids and pecs than the stereotypical long distance elite, haha. Six foot two, 168 pounds, about 5% body fat by various skinfold and circumference methods. I'm built more like a 400 meter sprinter, maybe slightly less.

I'm doing all I can to avoid putting on mass while maintaining what is there! Months ago, I reduced my upper body weight lifting routine to just once per week. I'm still seeing small gains, which I can basically control with protein intake. Whatever I put on is completely lean. The fat level is still trickling down. I want to see whether I can cut down from around 5% to 3%, just for the heck of it.

I run 60 miles a week, currently, six days a week. Monday is a 22 mile run, which I do quite fast: it's a quality workout. I ran my last one at a pace of about 7:15 minutes to the mile (not counting stops for water, traffic lights, washroom breaks). These runs don't deplete all my glycogen anymore, and all I need is water, no sugars or anything. I don't get into any fatigue zone. The remaining five days are about 8 miles each, up to about 12 maximum, down to a 4 minimum. I try to get a track workout in, too. Currently that is 6 miles of repeats bookended by a 1 mile warmup and 1 mile cooldown. The repeats are six fast 1200's with 400 meter recoveries.

I eat quite strictly, avoiding too much saturated fat and fat in general. The running cycles my carbs. I eat carbs when my glycogen stores are low, which I can tell from my legs starting to feel heavy and slow. When I'm fueled up, I cut down on the carbs. By not eating carbs when your tank is full, you avoid turning carbs to fat. This is called carb cycling: swinging your gas tank between near empty and near full, so that you can let decent quantities of carbs pass through your body for the nutrients, without the fat gain. My weight swings over about four pounds during the week, due to hydration and glycogen.

I've never done any ``cutting diet'' where I'm counting calories and consuming ridiculously small amounts of carbs. The idea of doing next to no activity out of fear of losing muscle mass, and eating next to nothing, just seems ridiculous to me. I'd go insane if I couldn't run for at least an hour at least four times a week. But I still eat way less carbohydrate than the average North American, who eats like he's running 100 miles per week.

I get my protein from soy powder, salmon, limited consumption of other meats like chicken and beef, and in smaller amounts from other sources like cottage cheese, beans, and so on. When I have the munchies, I drink espresso coffee or munch on carrots, celery sticks or apples. Carb sources are oatmeal, brown rice, and sometimes bread and peanut butter. I take a high potency multi-vitamin, multi-mineral everyday. I go through quite a bit of 1% milk, since my coffee is very strong, and I milk it down.
 

ApocalypseCow2

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I'm curious: how do people eat cottage cheese? Do they put it on celery and carrots? Or do they just eat it plain?
 

Reach

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Some of that was interesting. I want to start long distance running in preparation for the london marathon... at the moment I only do a few hundred metres, but hey, I used to not be able to do even that. Now I've overcome the wall of thinking I'm going to die.

So buddy, was it hard when you first started out running?
 

Levex

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oh man running...

i used to run long distance fairly well in high school, but i started again just recently and the results horrified me. the very first time i ran for 8-10 minutes and was COMPLETELY out of breath. i had to stop for about 3 minutes cause my pulse was probably around 180.

since you're a runner could you recommend how to get back on track. i dont plan on running heavily, just 30 minutes couple of times a week to keep the heart active and lose the belly fat that i accumilated recently would be enough for me.

so any tips?
 

Double

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maybe i didn't get what you wanted to tell us but thing is you ARE scrawny. and thing number2 is ectomorphs have to consume ridicolous high amounts of calories like 5000calories if they wannaa bulk up+do cardio. you can talk as much as you want but it still remains a fact. and no, i didnt just read that on an internet forum, i have experienced it myself that i can't gain weight when i'm running a lot. what else i have to say is that you have no clue about cutting, you are totally wrong about eating "little to nothing".

thing is if you want to talk about how you love running etc then that is cool and i would like to hear more because you seem experienced but if you want to talk about nutrition/cutting/bulking then trust me we bodybuilders know what we are doing and i dont want wrong advice here.
 

Lifeforce

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I agree with double, but either way you should do some form off intense cardio even if it's just once per week. It's not fun to discover your endurance suck!

If you look at it from a molecular level then you'll see that the fat molecyle is a really big one. When it passes through cell membranes it first has to be broken down and then built up again. Protein is much simpler for the body to use. Allthough the process from protein to energy is not reversable so protein that is converted to energy source cannot be converted back.

I THINK this is why diesel says to eat so much protein on cutting diet. If you have abundace from it, then the body will be able to use the excess protein for energy instead off breaking down the muscles. I don't have any study to prove this though. Might be for many reasons like protein doesn't have an insulin response or all the amino acids that build muscles should be present in more than adequate amounts.

Anyway, I must admit I have never seen a really big guy do cardio under my life. Fat people, skinny people, but never a really muscular guy.


You're not near 5% bodyfat, looks more like 8-10 %. And you really don't want to go down to 3 %. You can see the sinew in your face when you chew and fibers off you're muscles. If it's possible to say so, you're TOO ripped at 3%.

here's an example off near 3%
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=2248100

Cottage cheese is eaten plain right out off the bucket with a spoon ;)
 

Easy Tiger

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Originally posted by Double
maybe i didn't get what you wanted to tell us but thing is you ARE scrawny. and thing number2 is ectomorphs have to consume ridicolous high amounts of calories like 5000calories if they wannaa bulk up+do cardio. you can talk as much as you want but it still remains a fact.
Agree 100%.

6'2 and 168 is scrawny. And keep in mind that even at this weight you will probably only run a 3:15 if you have a good day. That is not a smoking time by any stretch of the imagination.

You can't avoid the fact that if you want to be a good distance runner, and have real endurance, you need to drop the pounds. There is a cost in endurance terms that results from carrying extra muscle. The faster you get the lighter you will be. And for damn sure there is no 2:18 runner who is a big guy.

Also, don't stop your watch at lights etc.. This is a weak way of doing things. The rest you get when you stop helps the remainder of your run. You should calculate this in your final time.
 

Reach

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What's the point in being a body builder if you're physically unhealthy?

Running is important in being generally healthy and that's pretty simple to understand.

The classic body builder is about as attractive as a pink poodle with an afro. Every sane person would prefer to have a lab than a freak of nature.
 

Double

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lol, if you think so. the best bodybuilders often have the most attractive women, the women guys like you don't even have the courage to look at:D
 

Heizen

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First off dude, you *are* scrawny. Second off, marathon runners get small because the body eats muscle that it doesn't absolutly need to supply energy, especially for really large amounts of cardio. This, because the amount of calories that would be needed to marathon run and keep muscle would be huge.

And reach, the classic body builders were the ones that were actually somewhat normal, and could be seen with a more attractive physique. People nowadays like Ronnie Coleman are just show the advances of labs :p (Although he does work his ass off). I don't know about others, but I would rather have the physique of a classic bodybuilder then a modern one.
 

Eulogy

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OMG the IDIOCY.

Long distance runner DO look scrawny, and SO DO YOU. PERIOD.

Why? Because the muscle fibres long-distance training requires are in themselves, small by nature. Muscle is costly energy-wise, basically, for the elite distance runner, its useless for what they are doing, and yes, they look like ****. What is the point of this thread anyway?
 

Reach

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Originally posted by Double
lol, if you think so. the best bodybuilders often have the most attractive women, the women guys like you don't even have the courage to look at:D
If donald trump can **** a HB, anyone can. You're pettiness doesn't serve anyone.
 

Lifeforce

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Originally posted by Reach
If donald trump can **** a HB, anyone can. You're pettiness doesn't serve anyone.
Perhaps, but we can still kick your ass. And we are the ones your girlfriend cheat with, we are more man than you will ever be.
 

Anhslaught

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Originally posted by Double
lol, if you think so. the best bodybuilders often have the most attractive women, the women guys like you don't even have the courage to look at:D
Actually, these days the body builders arent the ones that are getting the women most the time. These days, the ones getting the mmmm women are the skinny sick looking ones. haha
but that could be just from my side of town(city even). In many occasions, I've seen the wimpy guy steal the buff dude's woman! Most these girls now adays want the rockstar dude's look. That of course is just my interpretation.

And as for stringshredder being scrawny, I wouldn't go that far. BUTTTTT you do have a typical runner's body.
 

Double

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dude i appreciate that you're on my side but you ruined my fun!!as i clicked on the submit reply button in my last post i knew what kind of answer will come up and i wanted to reply with yeh but still we can kick your azz and the only thing you can do about is is ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuun forrest ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuun. so, when you ruin my fun i will ruin your biceps curls record:cool:

@Anhslaught: there are several factors and being muscular is just one of the core factors. so probably they have other MAJOR flaws and the skinny boys have some major things like tons of money/popularity going for them or your impressions are wrong ;)
 

Reach

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I really don't see how you could kick my ass over the internet, or in the real world. You obviously wouldn't win a mental fight. Besides anything else I wouldn't run from some puffball just because he's in a mood.

You're both stuck inside your own cliche if all you can do is go "Oww, we'll kick your ass! Man, your muscles are so ripped, I just want to slap your ass! But don't take that in a gay way. Unless that's what you like, then y'know."

If you run you get fit, what's your problem with that? Most people come here to find tips on general wellbeing, the guy is just saying you won't end up like an Ethiopian. You guys remind me of Dodgeball.
 

Lifeforce

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If you go in here and talk **** about the things we do you get flamed. Is that fair enough? Constructive critisism is welcome but picking fights aint, then you get as dumb replies as you posted.

I bet most people here who bulk up and want to get bigger experience alot off other things. Like more control in life, higher self esteem, a figthing spirit and a less stressful life. If you think lifting is just about getting big then you are o so wrong.

You assume people are stupid just because they lift weight. What an old cliché. I for one are among the top 2% most intelligent people in the world (like it matters) so don't think you are superior just because we lift weights. We aint stupid.

If you run too much you get small, that's the problem.

Most guys who come in here are either skinny or fat and want to change this.

Man, leave my biceps alone for god's sake. I just hit my goal and all you want to do is crush it. You're getting too strong for you're own good. :mad:
 

Double

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Besides anything else I wouldn't run from some puffball just because he's in a mood.
first off don't talk sh1t, you only have a big mouth in the internet but nothing of substance. i had people much bigger than you scrawny runner moving quickly out of their way when i'm in rage:cool:

2nd, dont use these women words, like mood or puffball, and the comments about us being gay only ridicule yourself. but i dont wanna be too hard to you b/c your estrogen levels are probably high and it all makes sense.

3rd, i remind you of dodgeball, you remind of my last party. someone hit me accidentantly so i turned around and just looked waiting for an apology. while the skinnyguy was looking at me in awe, his gf begged me not to hit her skinny boyfriend and got all giggling and smiling after i said dont worry, girl. i would have stolen her away but unfortunately she was ugly. i'm sure you can relate to this situation or why all the hating against bodybuilding??problems arise when you talk in a health+fitness forum about bodybuilding being unhealthy and bodybuilders looking like freaks. have a nice day, boy.
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lifeforce
1. hey man what about whishing me good luck instead?didnt beat it yet but now i'm off to eat a half chicken at a special chicken restaurant mmmm that will be tasty and full of protein:cool:
2. ah didnt see your reply now i look like a idiot, casting oil in the fire while things are about to clear up:D
 
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