My wife rejecting my new ways...

[sodbuster]

A "rut" si just 2 sides short of being a grave. IF you tell her anything, you could tell her that. BUT it's not necessary. Put up with the drauma,get the sex. Start giving in,she'll keep pushing and not back up until YOU decide to divorce[or she decides for you]. Stay strong and never back down.

 

[window]

Man you're are doing so well !...a lot of guys in your situation would have suplicated to no end becoming more and more frustrated. Nice work. Keep it up. Amazing how her libido goes up...A+

 

[Amazing]

Thank you all!

I just needed some reassurance that i was on the right path! I will do my best not to get pulled into logical argument with her; i've already learned the power of frame control and see how much more powerful that is over just arguing.

As far as including her in a hobby? We have TONS of hobbies we do together. Pretty boring married stuff, but i think we both enjoy it. But perhaps i should try to figure out a social hobby we could do together on the weekends or something. Any ideas?

First of all, great job. Second, what your wife is probably experiencing is the "I am all alone" effect so to say. When you are a couple, you are kind of expected to be together and do things together. Yeah it is stupid, but that's what they think, so if you start doing things on your own, she feels lonely. To fix this she needs some good girlfriends, pronto, a hobby or two she can do alone can work too - painting, music, working out.

Just thinking here, if you do decide to add an activity for the both of you - say surfing or snowboarding, yes it can be a lot of fun, but does that make it a slippery slope by her now being able to do the things you like doing, and wanting to do everything with you? Then either you two are still spending all the time together, or she can't keep up and now is mad because you "left" her behind...if you don't quit the hobby altogether because of her.

The point here is some separation and some breathing room plus more spice in your OWN lives, not doing fun things together, imo.

Can you please post the stuff on frame control that you thought were the most useful btw, I could brush up on it.

Thanks

 

[Nutz]

To piggyback on the points above about competition anxiety:

One fear all women seem to have is that they might be traded in for a newer model or that if they split with their man he'll turn out better for it than they will. This is why showing her you can flirt, get attention from buxom nubile young things, etc is such a powerful thing for men. And if you have the willingness to walk if you don't like where things are going in the relationship he makes her act on best behavior. She'll hate you for having options, but she'll love you even more and for 3 reasons.

1. You're alpha and chicks would rather have part of an alpha than all of a beta (see also: Tiger Woods).
2. Prince Charming Theory. You have options and you chose her as the best of the best, so she's supremely validated by you picking her.
3. "Living well is the best revenge". Her knowing somewhere in the back of her mind that if she ever did leave you that she'd be easily replaced, and probably by a younger, hornier, better looking woman that it negates the smug satisfaction "he's a loser, he's nothing without me" blah blah blah that women would use to rationalize feeling better about a breakup. The realization it's no sweat off your ass and in fact she could be doing the man a huge favor, well, that's psychological warfare on a woman's mind and is one that I've never seen or heard of a woman winning.

1 makes you in demand. 2 gives her validation and security. 3 gives her fear of loss and removes fear of loss from yourself (at least in her mind), so she'll be drawn to you because in her mind you have abundance and that goes back to the first point about being in demand. It also serves to keep her in check where most men fail.

 

[StrawHat]

Very informative posts everyone! Loved the analogy Rollo! And thanks for all the words guys... I'm just a sponge right now - absorbing everything because im seeing it working!

I'm probing her lately trying to find out something she's interested in doing outside of the house with me... I'm doing it in a covert way lol... But i do understand the importance of including her in some of the social activities i have going on...

----------
Just to update... Yesturday (sunday) was my offday from having a life outside the house... I had $ex and breakfast with my wife, shoveled some snow... And then... I played this baseball simulator that i very much enjoy playing.

In the past - when i play it, in my head im like, "this is a waste of time - you could be doing so much more with your life." And then i feel guilty about playing it. But i noticed yesturday - I had NO GUILT. I know that my week is very busy now and that when i get a break from life - i DESERVE to play around with a game with responsibility for a couple of hours....

Just wanted to mention that because it was a side-effect of me having a more productive life.... I'm no longer beating myself up over things i enjoy that may be counter-productive to becoming a better man. Because i know (for the most part) that all the rest of my days are spent towards that goal....

Can you please post the stuff on frame control that you thought were the most useful btw, I could brush up on it.

Well.... Im no expert and still struggle with certain elements of this... But for what im doing right now - - -

I'll not let her pull me into logical conversations about nonsense. AKA: When she trys her sh!t tests.... I just change the subject... It's very weird... Maybe i have a dumb wife lol... But she seems to not even realize i do it... Like when she was coming at me when i walked in the door the other day and i changed the subject to if she had finished dinner... The whole issue she had with me was forgotten... And on friday - i got a red wine on my way home from work... Not a cheap brand... Something to enjoy... And when i got home - she said she wanted White Wine and i "should have called her first." - I basically did a freezeout... Didn't address her... Poured 2 glasses of wine, and handed them to her with a smile and said "let's order delivery".

In the past - i surely would have bought into her frame and got into an arguement about how "if im buying the wine im going to buy what i want!" etc.


As far as where you might find specific resources.... I do this... I go on google and i type in...

site:sosuave.net
site:fastseduction.com
^Those are the only 2 sites i use...

then i type in whatever im searching for... after that...

So: site:sosuave.net "frame control" in google...

produces 227 matches....


---

Ok... So, i have another question for you guys here....

This one is a little specific and may be simple to answer, or may be complex... I don't know

If a situation comes up where my wife asks me to not do something i had planned for something else. And i WANT TO DO the other thing - should i still not do it?

For example:
Let's say - i have kettlebell class tonight and i get a text or call from her saying "why don't you skip kettlebell class tonight so we can go [fill in the blank with something i really like doing]"

What do you think about doing that thing as long as i want to do it?

At first, i thought i'd be fine. But after thinking some more on it - i think it could raise more sh!t tests in the future. Like if she asks me to do something in the future and skip out on some kind of event - if i DON'T WANT TO DO whatever it is she has planned - then she'll surely be like "oh i see, you'll only drop your plans if it's something you want to do!" etc etc....

If im to stay congruent - i would assume that i should pass on all things?

 

[LovelyLady]

What I hear her talking about is this:

- At work - A co-worker was telling me about how a bunch of them (all women) had signed up to be part of this breast cancer awareness team that meets once a week. They go out to campuses/malls/conventions and pass out stuff to women....

We had a HUGE argument last night...

When i got home (at 6:45) she layed all this stuff on me about how my social life has become more important than my wife...

HER: Do you have fun doing all this new stuff without me?



HER: Maybe i should start doing all these new things with guys from work.
ME: I only do 1 thing with people from work. But, I agree with you. Maybe you should.

Would you really be okay with your wife doing what you are doing? Is that the frame you are wanting your marriage to function under? Are you sure this is the behavioral rule you want to set up? Remember, in marriage ultimately your Woman will either follow your lead, or she will have to leave you because where you are trying to take her grossly violates her values. If spending time with large groups of the opposite sex without your spouse is something that sounds like a wise choice for a healthy marriage to you - but not to her - there is a serious issue there. One key thing a Woman needs from her Man, is to see him exercising good judgement. You could just as easily be informing men about prostrate cancer, so I find the choice of being surrounded by all women when you are a married man to be something I as someones wife, would not be comfortable with.

My 2 cents

 

[BeyondCharm]

What I hear her talking about is this:




Would you really be okay with your wife doing what you are doing? Is that the frame you are wanting your marriage to function under? Are you sure this is the behavioral rule you want to set up? Remember, in marriage ultimately your Woman will either follow your lead, or she will have to leave you because where you are trying to take her grossly violates her values. If spending time with large groups of the opposite sex without your spouse is something that sounds like a wise choice for a healthy marriage to you - but not to her - there is a serious issue there. One key thing a Woman needs from her Man, is to see him exercising good judgement. You could just as easily be informing men about prostrate cancer, so I find the choice of being surrounded by all women when you are a married man to be something I as someones wife, would not be comfortable with.

My 2 cents

^^ Be careful of paying too much heed to that advice.

"One key thing a Woman needs from her Man, is to see him exercising good judgement. " Translation: "A woman thinks she needs her man to be a pvssywhipped b1tch, but once she realizes he is she'll branch swing to a guy who isn't.

 

[LovelyLady]

^^ Be careful of paying too much heed to that advice.

"One key thing a Woman needs from her Man, is to see him exercising good judgement. " Translation: "A woman thinks she needs her man to be a pvssywhipped b1tch, but once she realizes he is she'll branch swing to a guy who isn't.

BeyondCharm,

That is not what I said at all... what I said is what I meant. I would appreciate it if you would not put words in mouth. Disagree with my beliefs regarding love, respect, or whether or not it is good judgement for him to choose this particular social activity if you like, but please do not misrepresent what I have actually said.

The relationship being discussed here is a marriage... which to me means there is an interest beyond a quick lay - there is actual love between these two people.

Love requires respect. Especially with women, who also need an element of hero worship with our men. We cannot experience this vital emotional response with someone who makes foolish relational choices/judgements.


Inorder for a woman to feel genuine respect for a man, it requires his exercising and displaying of good judgement. Good listening skills are also a plus.

 

[BeyondCharm]

BeyondCharm,

That is not what I said at all... what I said is what I meant. I would appreciate it if you would not put words in mouth. Disagree with my beliefs regarding love, respect, or whether or not it is good judgement for him to choose this particular social activity if you like, but please do not misrepresent what I have actually said.

The relationship being discussed here is a marriage... which to me means there is an interest beyond a quick lay - there is actual love between these two people.

Love requires respect. Especially with women, who also need an element of hero worship with our men. We cannot experience this vital emotional response with someone who makes foolish relational choices/judgements.


Inorder for a woman to feel genuine respect for a man, it requires his exercising and displaying of good judgement. Good listening skills are also a plus.

Love requires mutual respect? How existential of you to say that.

Perhaps some form of "rational" love requires relational choices/judgements that are approval worthy, but that has no assurance that any vital emotional response will occur.

And your comment about a woman feeling genuine respect for a man requiring him to display good judgement... good judgement according to whom? Her? That's exactly the kind of subjective nonsense that guys get caught up worrying about, "trying to please their partner by displaying the good judgement that their partner wants to see."

In my opinion, good judgement is supporting your family through hard work and paying the bills, showing love and affection to the children, getting your oil changed every so-many-miles according to your cars service manual... It is not the same as "Dont go to a pilates class with other women because it might make your wife jealous."

Your rationality is from way left field.

 

[Trader]

- At work - A co-worker was telling me about how a bunch of them (all women) had signed up to be part of this breast cancer awareness team that meets once a week. They go out to campuses/malls/conventions and pass out stuff to women....

We had a HUGE argument last night...

When i got home (at 6:45) she layed all this stuff on me about how my social life has become more important than my wife...

HER: Do you have fun doing all this new stuff without me?

HER: Maybe i should start doing all these new things with guys from work.
ME: I only do 1 thing with people from work. But, I agree with you. Maybe you should.

Would you really be okay with your wife doing what you are doing? Is that the frame you are wanting your marriage to function under?

If spending time with large groups of the opposite sex without your spouse is something that sounds like a wise choice for a healthy marriage to you - but not to her - there is a serious issue there. One key thing a Woman needs from her Man, is to see him exercising good judgement.

^^ Be careful of paying too much heed to that advice.

"One key thing a Woman needs from her Man, is to see him exercising good judgement. " Translation: "A woman thinks she needs her man to be a pvssywhipped b1tch, but once she realizes he is she'll branch swing to a guy who isn't.

If you are a married man, why are you hanging out solo, with a large group of girls?

This has nothing to do with being *whipped.*

It's about 2 things

Consistency - As a man, you are called to be consistent with your actions and your expectations of the girl. If you expect the girl to not hang out with her ex-bfs 1-on-1, then you damn well better not be hanging out with other girls alone. Whether you like it or not, you are the leader, and by hanging with all those girls alone, you are giving her license, license to do exactly what you are doing.

A boy says to a girl: 'Uh...just do as I say, not as I do.'

A man says to a girl: 'Just follow my lead.'


Introspection - As a man, you must be honest with yourself and know yourself. You are a man jacked up with testosterone, do you really think that hanging around large groups of girls is a good idea? Sure, you might not end up cheating, but why would you put yourself in that precarious position? There is nothing to be gained from that.

A leader is someone who makes wise decisions. This makes people want to follow him. If you make bad judgments, don't expect your wife, your subordinates at work to respect you.

This has nothing to do with being *whipped* the OP is free to hang out with his guy-friends in safe settings (i.e. NOT clubs).

 

[jafyk]

Don't you think what good judgement is inferring to in this instance is that going off to pilates with a bunch of beautiful women could be a source of temptation. Soon, the other women could start looking at him making moves on him especially once they realize he's married and trying to ddo right by his woman. Then they see him as a challenge to win. Could the guy himself honestly say he wouldn't be flattered and perhaps consider one of this opportunities especially if or when he's wife is giving him a hard time?

 

[Iceberg]

Hey, just out of curiosity (this is a hypothetical question, and NOT a criticism), what is the downside of including your wife in workouts and an occasional beer with the boys? Is it a "too much time together eliminates mystery/desire" kind of thing?

 

[Hemingway]

This reminds me of Dave from Hawaii.

"What you need to focus on, WHATEVER you do, is to maintain frame. Don’t put her on the pedestal. Adopt the mentality that you are atop her pedestal, and act accordingly."

"Think of yourself as a bulwark against her tempest. When she grasps for a pillar to steady herself against the whipping winds or yearns for an authority figure to foil her worst instincts, it is you who has to be there… strong, solid, unshakeable and immovable."

Hey, just out of curiosity (this is a hypothetical question, and NOT a criticism), what is the downside of including your wife in workouts and an occasional beer with the boys? Is it a "too much time together eliminates mystery/desire" kind of thing?

Because I don't want my kid sister to come out with me.

 

[LovelyLady]

Love requires mutual respect? How existential of you to say that.

First of all, I never mentioned mutual respect. I did speak about the female need to respect a man in order to love him and also the element of hero worship in a woman's love for her Man.

Your statement above, along with the one below, leaves me confused as to how you could consider me an existentialist. Perhaps you may want to read a bit about existentialism before making such a claim:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism

Perhaps some form of "rational" love requires relational choices/judgements that are approval worthy, but that has no assurance that any vital emotional response will occur.

Not approval worthy - but respectable and trustworthy - yes. As the man, he is supposed to be leading the relationship. If he is leading a troubled relationship into a dynamic that minimizes the situtional dynamics he is presenting her with, how can she trust his leadership?

Regarding rationality and love: we love a person who represents and manifests our highest values. Romantic love is an identifying of one's highest ideals and values in the life form of another.

We do not love those who we believe are beneath us. We may have contempt for them, compassion for them, pity for them, want to save them, convert them, want to change them - a codependancy of sorts as the OP mentioned. However, we do not love them for who they actually are. We love people in spite of their shortcomings - not because of them.

Mature, healthy, romantic love stems from a recognition that the other is worthy of receiving us.

And your comment about a woman feeling genuine respect for a man requiring him to display good judgement... good judgement according to whom? Her?

Quite honestly, yes. According to her - she needs to know she chose wisely - and she needs to know it ALL the time. You may not like this about women - but it is just the way we are. If she knows you are exercising poor judgement, she will feel the need to take over the leadership of the relationship - which will make her tap into her masculine resources and she will resent you for it.

Additionally, it will neuter her overall genuine sexual desire for you - she may have sex with you out of fear, competition anxiety, or general maintenance to hold you in line and to keep you passive so she can lead - but genuine love, desire and respect will not be there. It just can't be - we as women just aren't wired that way.

That's exactly the kind of subjective nonsense that guys get caught up worrying about, "trying to please their partner bydisplaying the good judgement that their partner wants to see."

It is not subjective nonsense. It would seem you are proposing a dynamic more aligned to a child rebelling against a parent by witholding his compliance of "proper" behavior. Children may act out of spite and often rebel against their parents. Displaying acts of rebellion positions one as a child in relation to a parent, rather than a mature Man leading his Woman. Just something to consider.

In my opinion, good judgement is supporting your family through hard work and paying the bills, showing love and affection to the children, getting your oil changed every so-many-miles according to your cars service manual...

What you describe here is not offering a woman anything a million other guys aren't offering as well - nor is it anything she can not provision for herself without you. These things are only special if they are offered by a Man she respects and loves... otherwise you are just a guy like any other guy offering the same old stuff.

The fact is, good judgement is one of the key qualities that separates the Men from the boys. Good judgement is a trait of a masculine man - it is a leadership skill that inspires respect and the desire to yield. Women need to be able to surrender/yield to their men in order to consider the relationship fulfilling.

It is not the same as "Dont go to a pilates class with other women because it might make your wife jealous."

I agree that being the only man with a group of female co-workers and going with them to a mall where you approach women you do not know and talk to them about their breasts is not the same as going to a pilates class - (although I would wonder at the motive behind a married man participating in yet another female-identified activity).

Your rationality is from way left field.

Hmmm.... well, if I follow your line of reasoning, I would deduce that you would believe it a solid rational relational choice for the OP's wife to be with a group of her male co-workers at a gym, to approach weightlifting men about penile cancer, and talk to them about their penis.

It would also follow that with what you are presenting as rational, that whether or not the respects her choice in doing that, it would be completely irrelevant to his level of love, respect, and yes - attraction for her.



BeyondCharm, from a logical perspective this above deduction is what you presented as a rational relational frame for the OP's marriage. Was that your intention?

 

[StrawHat]

awesome stuff guys!

to update: I mentioned to my wife about a class i saw today in the paper for "couples yoga" - i know it sounds kind of gay, but it's supposed to build trust and intimacy in each other. she seemed down with it. i said "we should go to one of the free classes" and she agreed...

So in 2 months - i went from an average day being - home - eat - tv sitcomes -internet - lazy lazy life...

To:
- Kettlebells classes 3 days a week
- Jogging 3 days a week
- Breast Cancer Awareness a few times a month
- Drawing comics
- and now Doing couples yoga...

Talk about upgrading my life!!!! =)



----

I don't have time to get to everything that's been said.... But let me make it clear that this was a decision that was not entirely based on improving my marriage... It had a lot to do with it - but the decisions im making on what to do with my life are healthy decisions....

Kettlebell and jogging are both physically healthy activities (more sex is too lol)! And you know what? Being out flirting with other women (while educating them on their breast health) is healthy too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I had shut down that part of my brain once i got married (in fact, probably long before that).

Is it healthy for my marriage? So far - in a great way! So far this year - we've already had about DOUBLE the sex we had all of last year!!!!!!! There's a spark in the bedroom again. We're doing it like when we were younger, not just sticking it in and pumping brainlessly! My wife is touching me a lot more, and we're even flirting again!

Would i care if she went out educating men on testicular cancer? No, i would find it hilarious! I'm out educating women on breast cancer and she's out educating men on ball cancer! That's a comedy!

Do you know why i can say that? Because i fvcking trust her!

That's it.

 

[Amazing]

So I looked at MASF for frame controlling, but I can't figure out d!ck on their forums. I remember reading something by TD about it, do you have more info on it?

 

[StrawHat]

So I looked at MASF for frame controlling, but I can't figure out d!ck on their forums. I remember reading something by TD about it, do you have more info on it?

fastseduction is how you search MASF:

http://www.google.com/search?q=site:fastseduction.com+"frame+control"

You can do the same with sosuave:

http://www.google.com/search?q=site:sosuave.com+"frame+control"


BE WARNED: You WILL BE HIT with tons of information. Probably too much to digest at once.

 

[Interceptor]

Being out flirting with other women

You're a married man. It's not healthy in a marriage. You're admitting that you're actively seeking connections with other women.



I think self improvement, and self realization are extremely important. And we need to pay attention and focus on that in our lives whether we're in a relationship or not.

While there is an increase in sexual activity , I dont know if we can jump into the assumption that your bond and intimacy has actually improved, strengthened and deepened.
So you may be getting more sex, but how are her relational needs being addressed? What if what she needs is more than sex?

Tread carefully. I dont think you understand what kind of dynamic you've introduced here.
Good luck.

 

[StrawHat]

You're a married man. It's not healthy in a marriage. You're admitting that you're actively seeking connections with other women.

That's your opinion. And that's fine for you to feel that way. I feel it's unhealthy to live inside the frame of it being morally wrong to exchange playfully charged banter with a woman i may or may not be attracted to (because trust me - i am unattracted to MOST of the women who i "flirt" with).

A good article i have on my laptop; no idea who wrote it though:

There are a lot of questions here about gaming when you are in a LTR. Many of these questions are really thinly veiled requests for those they respect to tell them it's okay to **** other chicks while in a LTR. I've been married quite a while (12 years), and would like to address this from my own experience and from what I've observed.

Part I: Maintaining Value (The Bare Minimum)

Most relationships either regress or settle down with time by their nature. As Kwagmyre has stated, the opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. Attraction is tension. The goal in a successful LTR (IMO) is to keep the tension at a moderate level without getting so high as to snap the thread. This means that your woman has to know that you can get other women on a instinctual level (If you have to tell her this, then you're missing the point). Here are some things I do (that I didn't really know I was doing until I found this board).

1)In social situations, talk to her friends in a way that is almost flirty. This requires calibration and tact. If they have a boyfriend, you also will want to make nice with him. I once danced with all my wife's co-workers while their husbands stood and watched (Nobody got mad, I was just having fun!). Several years later, they still talk about it (DHV). I love to have a good time and every social circle I'm in knows it. Guys lament when I'm not at a party and their wives tell mine about how much fun I am. Many of these women are bored. If you challenge them, let them know you don't give a **** about their emotional bull****, your gf/wife will see the DDB looks they give you. NO (or very little) KINO. Married chicks will freak out in a social setting. The same day a chick told my wife how fun I was, she expressed how uncomfortable she was at seeing one chick sitting on her best friend's husband's lap (I thought it was kinda cool). Calibration is key. Don't overdo it. The point is to display value, not disrespect your gf/wife. Joseph W South has posted about this.

2)Go out with your buddies. This is the easiest test as to whether you are betaized or not. If you don't go to a bar or play golf or have something you do which (purposely) excludes your gf/wife on a regular basis, you are well on your way to killing attraction. And don't fall for that, "I want to share your life with you" bull****. Don't ****ing ask, either. My policy is this: I respect my wife. If we have plans as a family, I honor them. If we don't, then I do what I want (this applies to her, also - non-neediness). She will ask me the next day if I had a good time, and that's it. No grilling allowed. I give her the same respect.

3) Do not go softly into that good night (or something like that). You remember that guy who sarged his way into the pants of that girl you've settled with? You have to keep being that guy. You may party a little less, you may have to pay a few more bills, but you are still that same dude. Some people joke about the 50 year old guys at the club, but when those guys have their game right, they are the most fun guys to be around. Be that guy. You have to be a sexual threat (credit 60 yrs. of Challenge) at all times. Today at the grocery, I spanked my wife's ass and we laughed about how funny it would be if we just started making out in the aisleway. Then some MILF with a kid kept chatting my ear off and telling me about her boat(which my wife liked but didn't like). Then when we got home I ****ed her in the doorway after we put up the groceries (my wife, not the MILF). Point being that this suburban wasteland does not have to be boring, does not have to be the end of you having a fun life.

And guys, this is only the first step im taking in improving my marriage, sex life, and self. This was the easiest to implement and only took me getting over some social fears.

There will be more, and they will include ways that legitimately build up the relationship.

 

[BeyondCharm]

This has nothing to do with being *whipped* the OP is free to hang out with his guy-friends in safe settings (i.e. NOT clubs).

Actually it does. A guy can hang out wherever he wants, and you are clearly *whipped in the brain* for thinking a guy can't go to pilates with hot women, or a yoga class with hot women, or a night club with hot women... you obviously come from some conservative upbringing...

You can still be faithful, loving and a good provider and enjoy the company of amazingly hot women.

Stop trying to be a white knight.