My failed experiment of living abroad, reflections

[DreamAgain]

So, I posted a while back how I thought the quality of women for long term relationships was higher abroad than in the US. I had certain reasons why I believed this, perhaps less toxic feminist influence being one, less obesity, etc.

I gave it a good attempt of going to a European country where I spoke the language fluently, and was in the upper tier of financial status. After many months, I am giving up in this endeavor and explaining why it failed below:

1) If you go to a place where there is net migration out of the place, primarily due to professional/economic reasons, you (as an immigrant without an established social circle) will always be viewed as an outsider. Making friends was particularly difficult because there was just too big a difference in terms of values, life philosophy, financial means, etc.

2) Despite not finding a reliable wingman I still relied on day game and swipe apps to go on dates and hook up with some girls. But I found that due to the ubiquity of smart phones, the younger generation there is no different than the younger generation in the US. They are just poorer.

3) As a result of this poverty, you conversely have bad levels of education. Talking to girls was not enjoyable due to this, the universities are not good in the country I went compared to what I was used to in the states.

4) The older girls (age 27+) are looking more for beta male providers and not to be pumped and dumped, they would rather not even hook up due to this fear. I guess it happened too many times, as the saying goes, once burned..

So overall, I found the compromises of living in a much worse off country were not worth the potential trade offs of meeting better quality women.

What I advise, instead, for any guy in his early thirties or late twenties to do:

1) Move to a larger tier city where you can make a good income, earn respectable status with your occupation.

2) Get in the best shape as possible. Become well versed enough to be able to talk about almost any topic.

3) Take the best pictures you can, professionally if needed, and pay for access to all the dating apps in your area.

4) Look for a single good wingman or two who you enjoy spending time with and hit up happy hours/popular bars in your area from the times of 7:30 to midnight on either friday or saturday night.

 

[pipeman84]

I still relied on day game and swipe apps to go on dates and hook up with some girls.

Did you seriously expect to find a quality woman with those two approaches?

 

[DreamAgain]

Did you seriously expect to find a quality woman with those two approaches?

Nope, I didn't say I did. It's all I had.

I'm no longer a college student. I was starting out with zero contacts in a new place. My job did not give me the base of new contacts that would be a pipeline to young, attractive women.

What else was I supposed to do?

 

[pipeman84]

What else was I supposed to do?

Just live your life and be aware of the women you meet in the process. Or as Zan Perrion said it in his book:

The secret of all this is that there is no need to “chase” women, ever. It is completely unnecessary. When a man sets out on a journey of excellence, heading toward the life he desires, seeking relevance in his life no matter what the cost, he discovers that women always find him attractive, that there is a great abundance of women in this world, that there is no need whatsoever to play games, and that trivialities like phone numbers are automatic, falling all around him like snowflakes in a field.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Stop blaming the location(ie, something you can't control) and start blaming yourself(ie, something you CAN control), then do something to change it.

The problem with too many people is they always want to put the blame on something else...something out of their control, then say "Oh, well there is nothing I could have done, it's out of my control!".

The problem is this ends up basically causing their life to be one endless excuse after another where they take no responsibility for their own actions that have led them to the place they are at, with women, with their careers, with their finances, etc etc...

The truth is, the vast majority of what happens with you is within your control, it's just hard for people's egos to accept they need to make changes to themself. Far easier to push it off on something else outside their control, which saves the ego...but usually leads them to the same results.

You list all the reasons why you think it didn't work...notice how not one of them is YOU?

The only constant in the different locations you have been in is you.

That's the biggest reason. Once you accept that and then focus on doing something about it, you'll see change.

 

[SW15]

When I was in my mid-20s, I considered a move to Latin America from the United States. I did not end up doing it. Instead, I ended up relocating from one large US metro area to another.

Relocations are bad for one's dating life, especially if one is seeking longer term relationships. The most impactful relocations are the ones that occur earlier in life, before roughly ages 25-27. Moving during childhood and young adulthood tends to weaken social circles and social circles are the easiest way to find a longer term girlfriend. The problem with the social circle method eventually becomes sustainability as social circles get pissed at men who continually exchange girlfriends, even if the relationships are semi-long (1-4 years). Remember that social circles generally have a blue pill viewpoint on romantic relationships. A man might be able to pull 2 LTRs from a social circle without marrying one. After 2 instances, he will have typically bled the social circle dry. This is known as "poisoning the well".

A guy who moves to a new city in his late 20s/early 30s or beyond is going to have a more difficult time getting into social circles in a new city that can lead to him getting a girlfriend from a social circle introduction. These are the type of men who are often reliant upon approaching strangers, sending DMs, or swiping on apps. Doing any of those 3 things increases the degree of difficulty.

I advise men to relocate as little as possible.

The men in the United States who I have seen experience the least frustration in their mating lives were the ones who had the fortunate circumstance of living in the same area from birth until high school graduation and then eventually staying in that same area as an adult. Part of that circumstance is due to their parents keeping them in the same area for their entire childhoods and the other part is that they chose as adults to stay in that same area. At most, these men went to college in a nearby area, maybe a place within a 2-4 hour drive of where they grew up their entire childhoods. These rooted guys typically got into LTRs with minimal effort approaching, swiping, or sending DMs. They have strong social ties in the regions where they grew up and stayed as adults.

1) Move to a larger tier city where you can make a good income, earn respectable status with your occupation.

2) Get in the best shape as possible. Become well versed enough to be able to talk about almost any topic.

3) Take the best pictures you can, professionally if needed, and pay for access to all the dating apps in your area.

4) Look for a single good wingman or two who you enjoy spending time with and hit up happy hours/popular bars in your area from the times of 7:30 to midnight on either friday or saturday night.

1. Some men have no choice but to move. Moving increases the degree of difficulty. Some men were also moved around during their childhoods and were rootless as children. These are the kinds of things that make dating as an adult more difficult. It's not impossible to succeed despite childhood and adulthood relocations, but it has to be acknowledged that these relocations have an effect. A larger tier USA city is better for men late 20s + in finding single women, but if a man moves to a larger tier USA city without pre-existing social ties to that area, it becomes more difficult to effectively date in that larger tier city. Money and status will help in the larger tier city but it's not always enough.

2. Agree on physique

3. A lot of men without social circle options end up using swipe apps. Your advice there would be good advice. Realize that a lot of app swipers (both male and female) are people who lack social ties in their cities, which is why they are using the apps. Or they poisoned the well in the social circle.

4. Good advice. A lot of late 20s/early 30s + men don't have many wingman options. Many men in this age range have male friends who are in LTRs, married, and/or have children. These aren't wingmen. Rolling solo to nightlife venues makes things more difficult. Having a bad wingman is often worse than no wingman at all. A good wing is worth a lot. There are few good wings out there. There are men out there who are good male friends, but not good as nightlife wings.

 

[CornbreadFed]

When I was in my mid-20s, I considered a move to Latin America from the United States. I did not end up doing it. Instead, I ended up relocating from one large US metro area to another.

Relocations are bad for one's dating life, especially if one is seeking longer term relationships. The most impactful relocations are the ones that occur earlier in life, before roughly ages 25-27. Moving during childhood and young adulthood tends to weaken social circles and social circles are the easiest way to find a longer term girlfriend. The problem with the social circle method eventually becomes sustainability as social circles get pissed at men who continually exchange girlfriends, even if the relationships are semi-long (1-4 years). Remember that social circles generally have a blue pill viewpoint on romantic relationships. A man might be able to pull 2 LTRs from a social circle without marrying one. After 2 instances, he will have typically bled the social circle dry. This is known as "poisoning the well".

A guy who moves to a new city in his late 20s/early 30s or beyond is going to have a more difficult time getting into social circles in a new city that can lead to him getting a girlfriend from a social circle introduction. These are the type of men who are often reliant upon approaching strangers, sending DMs, or swiping on apps. Doing any of those 3 things increases the degree of difficulty.

I advise men to relocate as little as possible.

The men in the United States who I have seen experience the least frustration in their mating lives were the ones who had the fortunate circumstance of living in the same area from birth until high school graduation and then eventually staying in that same area as an adult. Part of that circumstance is due to their parents keeping them in the same area for their entire childhoods and the other part is that they chose as adults to stay in that same area. At most, these men went to college in a nearby area, maybe a place within a 2-4 hour drive of where they grew up their entire childhoods. These rooted guys typically got into LTRs with minimal effort approaching, swiping, or sending DMs. They have strong social ties in the regions where they grew up and stayed as adults.

Thinking ape basically talked about this in his video. However, I think if your current city is trash and not helping, relocating is the better alternative.

 

[SW15]

Thinking ape basically talked about this in his video. However, I think if your current city is trash and not helping, relocating is the better alternative.

Great video! I agreed with every word I heard in that video.

Many relocations do not solve dating problems. Establishing a social circle after somewhere between ages 25-30 is quite difficult. If a man happens to be in a new city after turning 25, he is going to have to get very active in things to make friends and possibly date. For making friends, a man could make friends in an apartment complex (some complexes are better than others for this), in a co-ed sports league/some other hobby group, or with co-workers at jobs. Very few friends come out of white collar jobs anymore, so the options are basically a residential community and hobby groups for friends. Hobby groups might also be useful for arranging dates, depending upon the hobby. So many men try co-ed sports leagues for getting dates and few end up succeeding with them. As for apartment community friends, they are often transplanted adults in a similar spot in life. They often have weaker social circles. I mentioned this phenomenon in the opening post of "Observations on Dallas' Scene".

Observations on Dallas' Scene

Based on @Jesse Pinkman's write ups of New York City, Miami, and large state universities, I thought it would be worthwhile to write up Dallas, the city I call home. The Dallas-Fort Worth metropolitan area (DFW) is the 4th most populated metropolitan area in the United States. Dallas and Fort...

www.sosuave.net

Because there are so many transplants, social circles here are weaker. That has consequences.

It's true there are a lot of transplants coming to DFW.

Because social circles tend to be weaker, people aren't closed off here. Stranger approaches are usually at least cordial and there isn't any hostility to outsiders, unlike some other areas of the USA. The rootless nature of a lot of transplanted to Dallas adults leads to a lot of app-based dating, which puts men in a more difficult position. The better play is to approach strangers and join in on whatever in-person events that you can attend.

The weak social circles do contribute to Dallas' pretentious reputation. Because a lot of people are meeting strangers, there are no consequences for bad behavior. When there's no attachment, women can be as superficial as they please. Dallas has also had some fashion industry influence historically (Neiman-Marcus started here as an example) and fashion can be superficial. Southern California transplants have also added to the pretentiousness and superficiality.

Getting into one of the social circles with Dallas natives with strong roots isn't that easy to do. It's a lot like getting into a top fraternity at a university. Most transplanted adults to Dallas won't get into those or they will be on the fringes of them. Additionally, a lot of the Dallas natives who go to local high schools, then possibly go to some unversity within Texas (maybe even Southern Methodist or Texan Christian locally) and then settle in Dallas as adults tend to get married earlier in life, settle into the suburbs, and have children. Some of those people might be your co-workers but you won't be spending your leisure time with them.

Unattached men often see their male friendships either die or decline in their 30s for a variety of reasons. Most unattached men 30+ are going to have to go solo when looking to arrange first dates. The only forms of Game good for solo men are non-bar approaching (generally called daygame) and tech-based game (swipe apps and sending DMs). Most men now choose tech-based game over non-bar approaching. Neither path is the ideal path. It is better to meet through a hobby group and striking up a conversation in a hobby group is dependent upon social skills and stranger approaching skills.

When a man can't meet someone through a hobby group, an acquaintance of a hobby group friend, or someone who is an acquaintance of a co-worker, he's forced into cold approaching, app swiping, or sending DMs. All the paths are more difficult. There's no good choice there. I've chosen non-bar approaching over time for better or worse.

Relocation is the better alternative for a man who has possibly exhausted every option in his current city. If a man's current city is trash for whatever reason, he has to move.

 

[Kotaix]

Wherever you go, there you are.

I was pretty successful with meeting new people when I lived in germany for 7 months, but I was quite young. I made a social circle thru rockclimbing both at the gym and via a website; and had a group of pretty close friends. I didn't keep in touch and I have no idea where any of them are 20+ years down the line, but I had fun.

The girl I traveled with (not my gf) sat at home and didn't do sh!t while we were there, she was pining over her boyfriend and he had cheated on her with her best friend when we got back.

Without some kind of group activity you're already good at, I would say you're always going to struggle meeting people out of the blue. It can't all just be women, you need male buddies as well when you're trying to get into the culture.

 

[DreamAgain]

Wherever you go, there you are.

I was pretty successful with meeting new people when I lived in germany for 7 months, but I was quite young. I made a social circle thru rockclimbing both at the gym and via a website; and had a group of pretty close friends. I didn't keep in touch and I have no idea where any of them are 20+ years down the line, but I had fun.

The girl I traveled with (not my gf) sat at home and didn't do sh!t while we were there, she was pining over her boyfriend and he had cheated on her with her best friend when we got back.

Without some kind of group activity you're already good at, I would say you're always going to struggle meeting people out of the blue. It can't all just be women, you need male buddies as well when you're trying to get into the culture.

I'm not sure this would still work in 2023. Probably, but it would be much harder. The digital world has really altered the social landscape for the worse.

 

[BMX]

Wherever you go, there you are.

I was pretty successful with meeting new people when I lived in germany for 7 months, but I was quite young. I made a social circle thru rockclimbing both at the gym and via a website; and had a group of pretty close friends. I didn't keep in touch and I have no idea where any of them are 20+ years down the line, but I had fun.

Without some kind of group activity you're already good at, I would say you're always going to struggle meeting people out of the blue. It can't all just be women, you need male buddies as well when you're trying to get into the culture.

This is exactly how I did it when living in United K uckdom for 2.5 years. I made a social circle through my boxing gym and my regular gym where I lifted and did some other forms of light cardio. The people from my regular gym were more open to hanging out beyond the gym scene. If I ever felt like going out on a weekend in the city next door by myself, I would always run into at least 2 or 3 people from one or both of the gyms. Instant social circle.

London was a different story, as I did most of that alone. Too much interesting sh!t to get into without having someone else drag me down and waste my time. Sometimes I'd go with my American co-workers, but most of them acted like dweeb losers on overseas duty that decided to stay home and play video games---and not even exercise, ever...little soyboys on active duty. I also avoided going to the gym on base as much as possible as it was a lifeless, prison gym, often times full of douchebag senior leadership. I was 100% good with paying for gym memberships out in town, making friends both male and female, lifting in kilograms (and doing the mental math) vs. in pounds for free. All my trips to continental Europe I did solo too. It helped me make the most of what could've been an even sh!ttier situation than it already was professionally. In environments like that, you have to let live when you aren't at work. There's no need to share everything on social media, or word of mouth, especially if it will get you in trouble over what amounts to nothing. You get A life, so live it as best you can and seize the opportunities where you are.

I didn't keep in touch with any of them either, but I had fun.

 

[BadBoy89]

What I advise, instead, for any guy in his early thirties or late twenties to do:
1) Move to a larger tier city where you can make a good income, earn respectable status with your occupation.
2) Get in the best shape as possible. Become well versed enough to be able to talk about almost any topic.
3) Take the best pictures you can, professionally if needed, and pay for access to all the dating apps in your area.
4) Look for a single good wingman or two who you enjoy spending time with and hit up happy hours/popular bars in your area from the times of 7:30 to midnight on either friday or saturday night.

OK decent.

What would a woman, in her early thirties or late twenties have to do?

 

[Millard Fillmore]

I relocated at age 40. (My age is here is a misprint.) Never had a problem meeting younger women. Key word is meeting not swiping. I went out and talked to them. Includes erasmus chicks. But then I never had a problem in the US. I moved for me not for chicks.

But agree that the city has to be fairly big/cosmopolitan. Am guessing OP moved to EE (perhaps?) where everyone young is trying to get out. Lots of expectations of marriage and providing. Players do not do well in "traditional" environments even though people here nut hard over that supposed existence. Benefit is you will save more $ on a foreign salary.

 

[anonymous12345]

Related thread:

Game with different languages

I’ve noticed that my identity and language is much better in English; it’s masculine, free, dominating, flirty, confident. Now I’m back in a country speaking Swedish where I’ve never developed or used such skills, I left when I was 17 and never had successful game here. What have people done to...

www.sosuave.net

 

[anonymous12345]

One aspect is identity. Moving to another country and try to fit in their culture, language and have a functioning identity can be hard. I spent a long time in a country, for long feeling like Edward Norton's character in Fight Club, trying to speak the language, but was never really accepted or understanding the culture.

That's from my own experience, but also from other's stories. But it can also be liberating, no judgments, one can take on new things, just like when people go on vacation. If someone invented some tech that quickly integrated people, it would solve a lot of political/integration problems.

 

[DreamAgain]

I relocated at age 40. (My age is here is a misprint.) Never had a problem meeting younger women. Key word is meeting not swiping. I went out and talked to them. Includes erasmus chicks. But then I never had a problem in the US. I moved for me not for chicks.

But agree that the city has to be fairly big/cosmopolitan. Am guessing OP moved to EE (perhaps?) where everyone young is trying to get out. Lots of expectations of marriage and providing. Players do not do well in "traditional" environments even though people here nut hard over that supposed existence. Benefit is you will save more $ on a foreign salary.

Yes, moved somewhere in EE. It is a traditional environment but only for older women approaching the wall. The younger ones are no different than in the states, which is what dissapointed me.

 

[DreamAgain]

Stop blaming the location(ie, something you can't control) and start blaming yourself(ie, something you CAN control), then do something to change it.

The problem with too many people is they always want to put the blame on something else...something out of their control, then say "Oh, well there is nothing I could have done, it's out of my control!".

The problem is this ends up basically causing their life to be one endless excuse after another where they take no responsibility for their own actions that have led them to the place they are at, with women, with their careers, with their finances, etc etc...

The truth is, the vast majority of what happens with you is within your control, it's just hard for people's egos to accept they need to make changes to themself. Far easier to push it off on something else outside their control, which saves the ego...but usually leads them to the same results.

You list all the reasons why you think it didn't work...notice how not one of them is YOU?

The only constant in the different locations you have been in is you.

That's the biggest reason. Once you accept that and then focus on doing something about it, you'll see change.

I'm going to assume you are well intentioned, but, unless you spent a significant time in such a place, alone, in the year 2023, you are speaking out of ignorance.

A little bit is obviously on me, I failed to integrate properly with the locals because the differences like I mentioned are just too vast. But I believe it is more on the environment, it is not conducive for "foreigners" to put it simply. It is not a large, cosmopolitan city with many immigrants like London.

 

[SW15]

It is not a large, cosmopolitan city with many immigrants like London.

If an American male is to go to Europe to try to improve mating outcomes, it must be Eastern Europe and not a Western European city like London. The mating environment in London is not much different than a large USA city. The only thing London has going for it is foot traffic, which helps for random street approaching. There's a reason why it is called the "London Daygame Model", which is a street approaching based system.

Roosh called street game the most difficult venue hands down back in 2012.

How To Pick Up Girls On The Street

 

[DreamAgain]

If an American male is to go to Europe to try to improve mating outcomes, it must be Eastern Europe and not a Western European city like London. The mating environment in London is not much different than a large USA city. The only thing London has going for it is foot traffic, which helps for random street approaching. There's a reason why it is called the "London Daygame Model", which is a street approaching based system.

Roosh called street game the most difficult venue hands down back in 2012.

How To Pick Up Girls On The Street

I actually believe only the bigger cities in the west are worth it for foreigners.

The Eastern European countries have become no different, and are simply economically unviable for long term serious living. Corruption is too widespread into everyday life, medical care is pitiful, air and food quality are low, cost of living adjusted for wages is really viable only for people working for western salaries and western companies.

The main goal of young women is to be an instagram influencer, of men to be some sort of rapper/athlete/fitness influencer. Or miscellaneous businessman who flaunts wealth on social media.

This is not a healthy society by any means.

 

[SW15]

I actually believe only the bigger cities in the west are worth it for foreigners.

The Eastern European countries have become no different, and are simply economically unviable for long term serious living. Corruption is too widespread into everyday life, medical care is pitiful, air and food quality are low, cost of living adjusted for wages is really viable only for people working for western salaries and western companies.

The main goal of young women is to be an instagram influencer, of men to be some sort of rapper/athlete/fitness influencer. Or miscellaneous businessman who flaunts wealth on social media.

This is not a healthy society by any means.

The book on Europe has been that Eastern Europe is the place for USA/Western European men to go to escape the mating crapholes of Western cultures. Roosh spent many years in Poland in the 2010s for instance.

Within the USA, it's been common for Millennials raised in smaller towns to go to bigger cities once they reach adulthood.