My breaking point has been reached

[KarmaSutra]

You're still dodging the question. How is he at fault when she broke her side of their agreed arrangement?

You do not have the vaguest of ideas about what leverage is. Leverage is when you have something to supplement either a positive or a negative outcome within the aspect of a given goal. You have to own something in order to leverage for or against it.

You own women?

This is the problem not the goddamned symptom yet you shimmy to the side and try to wax philisophical.

Answer the question.

 

[KarmaSutra]

Cant say no? Now what gave you this idea? Leverage, my good man, is everything.

You did:

If I invite someone on a holiday with me, especially someone I happen to be ****ing, I would have picked up the whole tab. Hell, if it was just a buddy and I expected them to come with, I would have paid for the ticket. If they were given a choice, then fair enough. But the expectation was there because she was your GF.

Bro, you dont know me from a bar of soap and have not even taken the time to read my posts

"You ain't my bro, chumpy."

yet you have labelled me and put me into a shameful box because it suits your own argument.

"I think you heard me just fine palooka."

 

[KontrollerX]

"Value was $40 short on a 700 ticket. The thing was it was agreed that she was going to pay her ticket and she had no problem with it untill the moment I asked her to write the check. I didn't get upset at this point I just asked for the right amount and then it somehow escalated from there. I don't really understand how it's bad manners when I invited her on this trip over a number of friends I could've taken. I spent around $4,000 winning this $14,000 package which includes free hotel for a week($2,000 value) and $1,000 worth of food and I'm happy to share that with her."

Exactly.

Your manners were fine and the b!tch should of appreciated your generosity in taking her over more worthy and respectful people.

I mean sh!t man all she had to do was pay for the plane ticket and the rest of the trip including meals was paid for, for this ungreatful sow.

And look some guys come here to learn how to become DJ's and some guys come here to learn how to become slightly less of an AFC.

In other words they enjoy being AFC's and are rewarded somehow by that lowly mentality so they come here and learn just enough to help them get laid every now and then since remaining in a total AFC mentality just will not get the job done.

Hooligan Harry is one such person.

Don't listen to anything that he says.

Its garbage and it will serve to weaken your game.

To become a DJ is to have an abundance mentality and get the best deal for yourself at all times.

DJ's don't supplicate and kiss ass and they aren't concerned with being fair towards women or spending needless amounts of money on women as generally they avoid relationships and if they get into a relationship it is their choice entirely and it is their way or the highway and even if they get into a relationship they try to spend as little on women as possible and make her pay her own way turning feminist equality to their own benefit (a point thats lost on Hooligan and others).

A DJ always controls the relationship's frame and what happens within it and he walks away from any woman who deviates from the path he has laid out.

So yeah you could follow the Hooligan Harry half AFC/half DJ path if you want to but come back in 10 years and tell us how that works out for you.

With that guy's mentality of overly generous supplicating sympery I wouldn't be surprised if you came back to us to report you adopted another man's child and enjoy watching it while your woman goes clubbing every night not to mention you only get sex from her once a month and thats if you're lucky.

Remember extreme generosity and ass kissing supplication is being a real man in Hooligan's world so give till it hurts.

See guy's like Hooligan Harry try to pull the wool over the forum's eyes by calling us various feminist shaming names since we spend our money wisely but all his shaming is, is a thinly veiled and slyly manipulative means to justify his AFC gift buying nature to buy women's love and affection.

By his using feminist shaming terminology towards us it builds him up as the good guy with a heart and us as just a bunch of scrooges with bad manners for not doing things his way when nothing could be further from the truth.

Hooligan is only cleverly hiding his sympery and AFC status when he spouts off with such garbage.

"Sorry pal, you will get a lot of people on this forum saying you did the right thing and that they need to pay their way and blah blah blah. Basic manners though are something you dont put a price on and what you did is offside. Not to mention the fact that its downright stingy."

See you did do the right thing and Hooligan is right on the case telling you that what you did is wrong in order to justify his sympish AFC mindset and protect his ego investments. Yeah you are totally such a stingy bully for not covering this spoiled brat's manicure and red carpet treatment at the airport as well I imagine in Hooligan's world. :crackup:

Of course he as an AFC is more on the feminist's side than that of men so he artfully ignores the selfish entitlement spoiled mentality of your woman and calls you out for bad manners. What a joke. In reality you deserve far better than such a lowly ingrate of a woman and if Hooligan were a real DJ he would of told you as such instead of doing the feminist's work for them.

My view is when it comes to love money should play as little part in it as possible.

The focus when it comes to love should be on how you and your woman interact with eachother as human beings.

Period end of story.

And Hooligan has said in this thread he doesn't believe that never buying gifts for a woman or never spending significant amounts of money on a chick works in the real world and it is because he has never grown the balls to try and apply this way of living.

He is far too busy symping the fvck out and spending half his paycheck on every b!tch he gets with and justifying it with his generosity rationalization.

Sure you always end up paying in some way for all of your intimate interactions with women but the smart men ie the DJ's pay as little as possible.

 

[KarmaSutra]

some guys come here to learn how to become DJ's and some guys come here to learn how to become slightly less of an AFC.

This is one of the greatest, most succinct, phrases I have ever read.

Just perfect.

 

[KarmaSutra]

This is the key point here. I bet you more than anything this is exactly the mentality she has.

I'm telling you, entitlement is the crux here. This is the same mentality that all the idiots suing large companies have. They see slow moving targets with deep pockets.

There is a difference between being generous, and another having a sense of entitlement.

Hmmm? I wonder why Warren Buffett hasn't bought me a second yacht yet?

The first one is just for show.

This is the opposite of my previous post. Completely idiotic.

 

[KarmaSutra]

Call it what you want, I stand by my reasoning. She "sees" dollar signs with this guy. She is bitter about paying ANY of that $700.

You don't see reality as it truly is brother. We both agree she's bitter about paying for anything.

Her issue is she AGREED to it then toyed with him when he wanted her to put her money where her pie hole was.

Does he deserve an idiot broad like this? Perhaps Hooligan can find solace in her busom of mediocrity and bullsh!t but no guy with any sense of self worth would do anything but get the door for her. Letting it slap her in the crapper on the way out.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

Ass.

Read and ingest my words before you vomit your garbage.

Charities do not have any expectation. They have hope that you'll help them.

At what point in the digestion process do your words turn into garbage? and since I'll be vomiting out YOUR words, doesn't that make them YOUR garbage?

But back to your assertion that giving without recieving = supplication.

Isn't a supplicator someone that gives in HOPES of recieving, and therefore using your charity example above, you actually prove my theory that you think charities are supplicators.

Is it possible for you to give without hoping or expecting to get something back and NOT be a supplicator? Like if I give a homeless guy a nickle, does that make me a supplicator?

I don't mean to be splitting hairs, but it is the christmas/giving season, and I have giving on my mind (even though you called me a bad name).

What actual parameters of giving is OK for you?

and what about expectation? What if you have an agreement, Like you make the money, and she washes the dishes, and you mow the lawn, and she cleans the house, and you take out the trash etc.

Are you a supplictor if she has an expectation for you to do your pre agreed to duties?

Or if you give her three gifts for no reason, just cause your that kind of guy, how does HER decision to expect something from you change YOU from a giving kind of a guy into a supplicator?

Isn't that kind of like your identity is tied into HER decision on what to expect from you? Isn't that a bit of a stretch?

What if you have two girlfriends, and you give them each the same presents on three consecutive days, and one expects another one, and one doesn't?

Are you a supplicator at one house but not the other?

If they get on the phone to have a conversation, and both agree the expect a gift the next day, and you aren't aware of their decision, how will you know you've become a supplicator?

If you can answer these questions thoughtfull without resorting to name calling, that'd be great, but I understand if you can't, really.

 

[Knight's Cross]

Today/Tomorrow, I'll tell you something. Recently I had a plate that after like 6-7 dates she paid 0 on anything. Now same principle. She makes good $, and some of these dates were her idea. I'd have at least expected an offer from her to pick up some of the tabs. Or even at the movie theatre her pick up the popcorn or soda. It's not so much that I make more cash, it's the ENTITLEMENT attitude. So I spun her down as an candidate. I don't call her for dates, plans, etc.
Be glad you didn't marry this woman or have children together. The next thing she'd be pushing for you to buy her the Cadillac Escalade, or Lincoln Navigator.
We constantly need to ask ourselves is the person we are with an asset or a liability? Sometimes in the beginning they are assets, but after the newness wears off, the liability part emerges. Sounds like all along you knew that she could be argumenative, sort of a "her way or everyone suffers" type. I'm glad you stood your ground this time. It sounds like you knew this was coming. Again, stay strong. Keep to your principles. You aren't being a harda$$ for doing that. You are being a man. Plenty of people on the forum are going to tell you that you were being stingy, or too hard on her. I say BS. You know that too.

KC

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

Is he a bad person for having an expectation for her to pay as she agreed?

Of course not. I apologize if it seems I suggested otherwise.

 

[Da Realist]

From what you wrote, you told her to pay for a flight. Notice I said "told" instead of saying "you both agreed how to handle paying for the flight." I think that's where you messed up and she pulled that passive-agressive crap of knowingly underpaying you. Really, both of you handled it like children, but its going to reflect back on you totally just for the fact you're the man. My advice is to watch how you talk to people; make sure you're firm, but not aggressive. And to to be real, a couple of dollars over a vacation isn't what really did this. Deep down you probaly felt you had gave up too much and wanted to exert your control on the situation for once and went overboard. I'm not saying to get back with her, but a new relationship isn't going to fix. Take your time, get your confidence back up, and live.

 

[NewMan]

There are 2 seperate issues here:

1) Should OP have gotten pi55ed over the $60 shorted to him by his 6 yr LTR

2) is in general, paying the lion's share of the way supplication or not. Further - should you continue to date a chick who does not pay her way - or at least offer to pay her way.

-

We don't have enough information to answer 1. If this was a one time situation, then he's an idiot - or there other other issues in this relationship. If it's a continuing issue, then he was right to make an issue of it.

If you expect that you are going to be in a relationship where everything spent is split down the middle, you will be lonely for a long, long time.

 

[cordoncordon]

How am I giving into her every whim? Did I not say that I would do the same for a friend? Its MANNERS. If you have an entire holiday planned, where the other person has had no input as to the location or timing, then asking them to pay for a ticket , especially when they are obligated to come with, is BAD MANNERS. After 6 years, she is obligated to go if he asks.

Must I put this into bold letters for you?

Its amazing how often people on these forums resort to the shaming tactics feminists use themselves to bring about their point. As soon as you disagree with them you are automatically AFC. Its laughable how apparent the double standards are on these forums at times. Here is another cracking example of one.

There is a difference between supplication and bad manners. Bottom line, if you can drop $4000 at a poker table, you have money to burn. To win a holiday out of it and expect someone to come with you, and then expect them to cover the costs, IS OFFSIDE. WTF guys? How can you even see it any other way? $4000 on Poker and you are asking for money for airfare because the rest of the holiday is free?

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. ****ing lightweights.

The difference is that PUAs and "DJs" (I put that is "" because half of you are no where near it) see this as supplicating behaviour when it has absolutely nothing to do with "your game". Its basic manners and social etiquette.

**** it. If you lack the basic social skills to determine what is and what is not acceptable then so be it. Stick to misinterpreting seduction manuals. If you dont get it by now,you never will.

I reckon half the issues could be solved if people actually read through a thread before adding their 2cents

I'm sorry but with them being in a relationship for 6 years, and because he is paying for the majority of the trip via that he won the trip (although he still put his time and money into winning the poker tourney), and because it sounds as though she makes plenty of money, there is NOTHING wrong with him expecting her to pay for her own airline ticket. Especially since it was discussed and agreed on before hand.

NOTHING.

 

[slaog]

There seems to be a power struggle in the relationship. You don't tell somebody what to do because that's treating them like they're your property. That looks like the reason she reacted like she did when you asked for the check.


Hooligan Harry makes a good point about traditional roles. If a man asks a woman out then he should pay. If she wants to pay then thats fine too. In todays society women have alot of money now themselves so can afford to pay unlike the traditional past. Some people are stingy others are giving. On some of my dates I payed for everything and on other dates woman insisted on paying at least half.



I think the thing regarding money is to not make a big deal of it. In fact theres no need to talk about it much. Not saying pretend it isn't there or an issue but if you can afford something why make a fuss over it.


What I would have done if I was him and she didn't pay the full amount, I would have say nothing and just accept the cheque and not make an issue of it. He could afford it and who would look worse? Him accepting the cheque without a bother or her standing there surprised that he didn't give her the reaction she expected to get.

 

[jophil28]

For whatever the irrelevant reason behind doing so, he made a financial deal with her and she agreed. He then made major plans with this in mind. She then pulled a stunt where she new the amount she agreed to pay, but wrote the check short and handed it to him. In case she is retarded and forgot, he told her the correct amount and she tried to short him again.

This is the issue, period. These are not the traits of a high quality woman who the OP should of stayed with and gotten married to.

I agree with you on this one.

THis issue is NOT about money. IT is about who had ultimate control.
She short paid him to FEEL that she was NOT being a fully obedient women who was doing what a man wanted even when she had AGREED to pay the full amount.. Her actions are a variation of women "having the last word" -

THis is also a shining example of women's belief in their entitlement to change their mind or break promises because a new FEELING came over them.
Women's make CONDITIONAL promises and we allow them to get away with it because , " well..you know how women are.."

Read the part again about her being a feminist... "I am woman, hear me roar .." Curiously, when it suited her, she reverted to playing traditional female mind games by short paying to set the OP up to be a target for her shaming tactic, " You are stingy .."

That says it all about this woman's maturity and personal feminist "development".

 

[Mr. Me]

Here's an idea for the OP.

Tell her this whole thing has gotten out of hand and is causing too much trouble between the two of you and so - you decided to get rid of the vacation and so you're going to auction it off on eBay and just pocket the money instead. Almost like what King Solomon would've done.

Then see what she does.

I'm thinking there's a chance she's going to say "no, NO! Don't do that!" and eagerly write that check out.

And if she doesn't, then take the vacation. You can tell her you changed your mind about selling it off. And since she was okay with not having the vacation, you figured she wasn't that interested in going.

 

[Interceptor]

I agree with Hooligan on this one. She is your LTR of 6 years, not your FWB.Secondly you "invited" her to come along on YOUR vacation.
So call me old school, but protocol says that you pay the freight for both of you.
I would have automatically paid for TWO tickets....

This is the best advice. End of story.

 

[Interceptor]

She did the short check because she wanted to demonstrate that she has control over her decisions, and isnt anyone's slave.
It was her knee jerk reaction. She did not plan it out, it was her trying to demonstrate free will.

She wrote it out in good faith, but felt a little uncomfortable with the scenario ("My BF of 6 years invited ME, but is asking me to PAY??!WTF??!")
So you hit a trigger here.She reacted, and it got blown out of proportion.
I do see the OPs point in it was not a nice reaction, and if she had true deep love,she would control her impulses much more strongly with the man she loves...
But it happened.
I think this is salvageable, but there needs to be way more attention to boundaries and respect.

From both parties.


With money being tight for a lot of people, we all need to be aware of other people's resources and their boundaries, and honor them.

My belief is that she knee jerked sh*t tested you, and then you didnt appreciate it, and walked out. I can see how this is disrespectful. But she felt VERY awkward being put in this position where you invite her but expect her to pay.
She has a certain view of how Men should act, in the sense of a gentleman, etc...and when this request happened , you triggered a conflict here.
Do women often feel entitled?
Yes.

ie 'The Man should ALWAYS Pay!!!!!!"

But you have to use good judgement in involving yourself with a woman with that entitled mentality.
Men can do this too , btw.

But the important lesson here is to never feel entitled to another's resources, never take them for granted, respect our boundaries, and those of our partners, and stay away from women with that entitled mentality, and finally...
.........when YOU INVITE someone YOU are the one PAYING.

This is classy behavior. And this includes women too.

In tough economic times you should be able to talk to your partner and suggest splitting bills when possible. And it helps to be considerate of that.
If you have to go out less, then so be it.
But it is important to approach this in a loving and considerate manner.

Dont take people for granted.

 

[Mr. Me]

And what about what the OP happened to say in post #7 of this thread - it appears the OP did originally tell her he'd pay for her trip. Am I understanding that correctly?:

though I did say If i happen to cash in the tournament, I have no problem covering the cost of her ticket.

 

[vorbis]

I took that to mean that the OP is going to play a tournament in the Bahamas. If he does well there then he would cover her ticket cost.

The other comment about him spending 4000 on poker suggesting that he could afford her ticket are off the mark. His job is as a full time poker player. This isn't his hobby.

The other key point here is that she appears to have wanted to go along initially before he asked her. The OP has said that he could have asked along a guy friend instead. There was an option for his gf to say she wasn't able to go.

Finally, this is a week in the Bahamas we're talking about! Its not like he's asked her to accompany him to a weekend in Detroit.

 

[cedd]

money is always a tricky point in any relationship, especially if the woman earns more than his BF.

if the man invites the girl then its normal he pays for BUT it depends of the amount of this "invitation" and the context of the relationship.

if I invite my gf for a weekend I wont ask her to pay for the hotel. But If i have to travel abroad and she asks me for coming with, then I will ask her to share in (ie she pays for her plane/train/bus ) because I'm not Bill Gates and even if she didn't come with, I would travel anyway.

If he can't really afford the cost of this invitation and his GF makes a lot of money, he wont be blamed for asking her to pay or simply share in, will he ?