My 2nd LTR, Same Problems as 1st - What Am I Doing Wrong?

[The Bat]

I've been reflecting on how I lived life before she and I met, how I lived my life when we met and how I've continued to live since then. I've come to realized just how sloppy I've gotten in managing not only my relationship with her but my entire life in general.

Over the past few days I've pulled back a little, to carve out some space for myself. I think that they way things are going reflects how well I'm managing my life overall. By average (meaning everybody else's) standards, things are going well enough I suppose. But I was living to a much higher standard before and I need to get back to living to that standard. When I was, things like women, work, money, and health all fell into place without the confusion and specific types of friction I'm experiencing now. I suspect that is really the problem I need to address.

Thoughts?

Bingo! Read the bold parts again, my friend. You've solved your own problem. All you need to do now is act on it. That is the toughest part, by the way.

 

[Mr. Me]

It seems to me, DJCT, that the problem here isn't exactly what you think it is.

I really think that she feels you're taken her for granted and/or not really loving her. I'm going to explain a concept here for you and I'd like you to try it out and see if it helps any, as I do think it will.

People have different ways of communicating love. It has to do with the way they were brought up, their role models, their own preferences and the influences in their lives.

So, when they want to show their love to someone, they act in that particular way. And, conversely, when they're treated in that same way, they in turn, feel loved. Makes sense so far?

Primarily, there are five different ways that people express love. They verbalize it with compliments, encouragement and praises, or they physically demonstrate it with hugs, caresses and touches, or they like to give little gifts as treasures of their love, or they like to do errands and chores for their loved one, and some simply enjoy quality time and conversation with their lovers.

"She is often sweet. Cooks for me, rubs my back, buys me little presents here and there"

So your woman seems to express her love to you by performing some chores for you, and with acts of physical touch and giving little gifts.

When she asked you to run a chore for her... you saw it as making you into a chump, doing her a ridiculous favor.

But she doesn't see it that way. To her, it's an expression of your love back to her. It's one of the ways she expresses love, so it means "love" to her. Get it?

It's not unusual for two people to not see the same things as meaning "love". As I mentioned above, it has to do with our own preferences, our role models growing up, other influences, etc. To you, it seems you feel more loved when a woman has sexual relations with you. Lots of guys feel that way. Maybe you feel you're communicating your love when you're having sex with your lover. So to you, running an errand or buying her a silly little inexpensive surprise gift seems AFCish.

So I'd strongly suggest you do a few little chores for her and try this experiment out. Next time you're at the store, for example, call her and ask her if she needs anything. Also, take care of a chore around the house once in a while that she normally does, and don't even tell her that you're going to do it, just do it. Once every month or so, on a different day to keep it unpredictable, pick up a little inexpensive something for her while you're out: a funny card, a large cookie, something silly that reminded you of her, and surprise her with it. Give her a massage one night without going for sex, give her a warm little rub on the back when you pass her in the hallway.

We're just covering all the different ways she expresses love with you doing the same back to her, and watch to see which get the biggest reactions from her. This may sound silly or chumpish to you, but try it. You'd be surprised what her reaction will be like. Relationship require maintenance.

This is why she doesn't think you're being "romantic". You're not demonstrating love to her in a way that means something to her. You're not "speaking" her romantic lingo. And this is why she's feeling that you only are using her for sex, because she feels neglected and unloved. If she continues to feel that way, she'll dump you eventually.

Which answers your original question: I'm guessing this neglect is a major reason why your LTRs went south.

 

[DJCT]

This is why she doesn't think you're being "romantic". You're not demonstrating love to her in a way that means something to her. You're not "speaking" her romantic lingo. And this is why she's feeling that you only are using her for sex, because she feels neglected and unloved.

I would say that the problems in both LTRs were/are a combination of multiple problems with the neglect that you describe possibly being one of the bigger ones. I will try out doing these types of things (in moderation) and see what happens on top of other changes that I'm making. Great ideas and suggestions Mr. Me. Now that you bring it to my attention, I figure I show my feelings through touch (both affection and sex) and encouragement/support. She does more through doing little favors and physical affection.

This makes me wonder... is it right to expect a woman to communicate with me on my wavelength? If I'm with a women and there is this mismatch in the way we show our emotions, should I be looking for a better match or is this just the way it always is w/ men and women? Looking back, my experience shows this mismatch to always be there. As the man, I would always have to be the one step up and take responsibility for communicating w/ her on a channel she is receptive to. What do you think?

 

[Latinoman]

I've noticed something that's happened to me in two LTRs and I'd like some input.

After a few months, the sex starts to get boring and I start hearing things like:


[*]How come you aren't more romantic?
[*]All guys ever think about is sex.

Maybe you should be more balanced. For instance...70% phucking and 30% making love. Also 50% alpha male (as you are older and she is not at a mature level yet), 15% equal partner, 15% her leading, 20% gentleman/romantic. Those are just examples as you can adjust that to fit approrpiately (in fact, you can add a lot to one aspect for a particular month and take that away again the following month). What you don't want to do is 100% of the same thing.

In relation to the sex part...when she says, "All you guys ever think about is sex"...simply reply with "Baby...do not compare me with anyone. I am with you now. Comparing me with those other guys is actually insulting and disrespectful. I do NOT compare you with any of the women I slept in my past...I want you to give me the same courtesy. Now that we have that clear, let me tell you something else. I find you extremely sexy and attractive and I 'love' you. I am not going to appologize for wanting to be intimate with you. Perhaps we don't have the same sex drive and if that is the case then we might have to work on that. But I am telling you...I am NOT going to appoligize because I have a LOT of desire for the woman in my life and want to be intimate with the woman I choose to be with in a committed relationship. I don't want to sleep with several women...I only want to sleep with you."

[*]All guys are cheaters.

By the way, I won't even bother pursuing a relationship with a woman that has such a low self-esteem as sleeping with men she consider cheating. But this one is a very young woman and she might need some education here. You need to put a stop to that. I personally will tell her (considering all the whining), "Listen, I am not cheating on you. In fact, I have a lot of respect for you. You implying that I am a cheater or even comparing me with some other men you were involved in your past is actually disrespectful toward me." Or I would joking say..."Are you whining again?" (then smile as if I was joking).

Some other things she does:

• Sometimes she closes down completely. Especially when we move from making out to having sex.

• 
  
  "Are you okay?". Just ask her that.
  
  

  [*]Sometimes she'll joke around and say "Why don't you buy this for me?" I'll just stare at her.

  "Sweetie...because I never considered you a materialistic women. And that is what I found very attractive about you. Also, because in my eyes, we are equals."
  
  By the way, I hope that you are NOT cheap. If you are NOT cheap, then she has NO reason to be joking like that. But if you are CHEAP...then you have some serious issues that need to be worked on.
  
  

  [*]She resists getting adventurous sexually and complains about being treated like an object when I suggest things.

  Something tells me that you are going way to fast on her. I can assure you...if you give her GREAT sex...she will open up a little. Start with something little. Then eventually move to something else. Seven months is a long time for her to be a little shy.
  
  

  [*]Sometimes whines and moans excessively about work, her family, her friends, her life, etc.

  That's bad. Listen to what she has to say (always listen)...then change the topic if it is something you feel you have no right to know...or give her advice. If she continues whining, tell her, "Hey, I already told you what you needed to do to solve this problem."
  
  

  [*]She doesn't like to be expressive during sex. I told her to make some noise and she said it doesn't feel right.

  You cannot ASK a woman to make some noise. She has to FEEL it to make noise. You should know that.
  
  

  Its not all bad. She is often sweet. Cooks for me, rubs my back, buys me little presents here and there, texts me w/ sexy or romantic messages. Sometimes the sex is amazing.

  Hmmmm...that is actually DAMN good coming from a 23 year old woman.
  
  
  

  Sometimes it is pretty god-awful though. And that is becoming more and more the case.

  I think you are the problem here. I truly do. She is only 23...you are 31. You should know better. You should be the teacher here and introduce her to new things...but in order for that to work...she MUST trust you...and MUST respect you. Also...add some romanticism to this so she can feel you are not just there for the sex. And don't be CHEAP either.
  
  

  After reading what I wrote, the first thing that comes to mind is NEXT. However, I've gone through the same problems in 2 different relationships now, so although I know this girl has her own problems, I know I have plenty to work on. I know that I'm getting too AFC after the first few months. Can you guys help me identify some specific areas I need to improve in?

  Listen...EVERY woman will whine. Especially if she is 23. Women whine and women have drama. It is up to you to reduce that crap. You cannot totally take it away from them...that's impossible. But at the very least reduce it (see one of my advice above).
  
  Also, every woman in a serious committed relationship expect some level of emotional satisfaction.
  
  You are failing in the satisfaction part.
  
  Also consider the fact that she is young and inexperience. You can mold her, dude.
  
  
  
  
  

  One more thing. Often she'll ask me to do these ridiculous favors for her. I'll text her that I'm out shopping now and that I'm coming over later. She'll text "can you pick up razors and deoderant for me?".

  What's the big deal? You either can or you can't. If you are near a place and you can pick those things for her...then do it. As long as she pays you back (I am assuming she is paying you back as those things are for her own personal use...unlike food). I mean, you are already there. Now, if you are not near the place or you have to pay for it (although, $1.50 might not kill you)...then that's different. You can always say, "Sorry, but I am actually leaving the place now."
  
  

  Or she'll be somewhere and text "can you stop by my house and pick me up x?". I usually ignore these, although once it was kind of important so I did it and still ended up feeling like a chump afterwards.

  That's different as she is asking you to stop what you are doing to serve her. Unless it is an emergency.

 

[Latinoman]

Don't be selfish and don't be unfair. I agree, you have to do some work with her on the "entitlement" issues (such as expecting you to buy stuff and the excessive whining). That is expected, as she is only 23. But at least you can kind of mold her better. But be fair.

But you also need to learn some things. Dude, in a long term relationship...you have to "provide". And with providing, I am not talking about $$$...I am talking about providing SATISFACTION.


http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1384542#post1384542 [Pay particular attention to post #21]

Read that thread. It did not get a lot of responses, but it is what get women into a Blitz State. That's a fact. As long as you don't jeopardize your masculinity and as long as you are fair...

And by the way...if you two are not compatible sexually...then that would be an issue if you ever decide to marry her.

 

[Mr. Me]

is it right to expect a woman to communicate with me on my wavelength? If I'm with a women and there is this mismatch in the way we show our emotions, should I be looking for a better match or is this just the way it always is w/ men and women? Looking back, my experience shows this mismatch to always be there.

As I've mentioned, it's going to be different for everyone anyway because of the way we were raised and our own personal preferences and the influences in our lives that shape us regarding these things. So finding a "match" when it comes to this isn't a requirement for a happier relationship, it's just the *ability* to be compatible that's key. It's not even about compatibility, it's about being able to bend.

We're basically mismatched with everyone, because every individual is different, no two people are the same, despite any and all similarities they may share. The common brainwashing in this culture is that differences are to be abhorred, rather than accepted as normal. We're not clones.

It would be nice if she "spoke" to you in your love language, of course, so that you too feel loved more, and maybe you can guide her to do that by telling her what you like in a non-critical way: "I really feel loved when you [do whatever]". It will feel just as foreign to her as it does to you to demonstrate love to her in a way she feels loved, because it's new to you. But after a while, it will feel normal for both of you, just like any other behavior.

But don't go about that until the pattern's changed, otherwise, right now, she'll probably see it as you demanding what you want and her not getting what she wants. Give her what she needs first and satisfy her in order to get what you want. You have to make a woman feel good.

Take a month to start putting into practice all the little nuances we just spoke about and observe for changes in her behavior. Don't expect immediate results. It may take a few weeks, but watch for even tiny baby steps on her part. People don't generally make huge leaps in behavioral changes. Have patience. As long as she moves in the right direction, that will let you know if you're on the right path.

All we know for sure is that if you continue with things the way they are, that's not going to bring you the results you're looking for, guaranteed. If anything, it's going to be a repeat of your past mistakes with the same ending. So you have nothing to lose by taking four weeks to try out something different.

Insofar as sex goes, I think you'll find that, typically, once you start doing this and as a result, she feels more loved, she'll respond naturally by wanting to make love to you and treating you very, very nicely.

 

[DJCT]

Damn Latinoman, it's going to take me a day or two to digest everything you wrote Thank you.

Mr. Me, that was a helpful response as well. I have started to incorporate your ideas so we'll see.


Thx guys.

 

[penkitten]

from what i read of the original post, i just don't think she is the girl for you.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

from what i read of the original post, i just don't think she is the girl for you.

That's what I say. Knowing how to keep a woman around isn't all that beneficial if she's not the right woman for you in the first place.

 

[DJCT]

I've started blocking out more time to work on my goals. I've also been spending more time w/ friends. I've been working to get my life back up to my previous standards and it has helped my mindset since I started this thread. I've also been approaching women more often which makes a big difference. It's one thing to think to yourself 'I have options'. It's another to actually see that you have options on a consistent basis. Helps keep things in better perspective. It's only been a week but it's a start.

Penkitten and Francisco, you could be right. I'm on the fence. Some things are great, some things are not so good. I'm willing to give it a little more time while I get other things in my life back on track. Appreciate the input.

Mr. Me, I've been paying more attention to the way she communicates things and trying to talk back to her on that channel. At the same time, when she communicates something on my channel, I have been trying to point it out to her and tell her I like it to reinforce the behavior. Not sure if this is what you meant.

Something tells me that you are going way to fast on her. I can assure you...if you give her GREAT sex...she will open up a little. Start with something little. Then eventually move to something else. Seven months is a long time for her to be a little shy.
...

You cannot ASK a woman to make some noise. She has to FEEL it to make noise. You should know that.

...

I think you are the problem here. I truly do. She is only 23...you are 31. You should know better. You should be the teacher here and introduce her to new things...but in order for that to work...she MUST trust you...and MUST respect you. Also...add some romanticism to this so she can feel you are not just there for the sex. And don't be CHEAP either.

Latinoman, I think that although there are a few issues with the sex, they all stem from one basic thing:

I find her near impossible to read. She is reserved when it comes to expressing herself during intimacy. Initially I thought she would loosen up. She has improved some but not much. The thing w/ making noise during sex... she makes plenty of noise the last few minutes. It's leading up to that point that she doesn't. It's like she is minimizing all the reactions she has conscious control over. Because I can't read her I get in all sorts of trouble. Sometimes I move too fast when she isn't ready. Sometimes I move too slowly when she is ready. Both sins are equally unforgiveable.

I've talked to her about this and she said she is afraid to open up to guys because of her past experiences. I guess you could say it's my fault for not being better and not being able to open her up. I can accept that. I've never been with a girl that was difficult to read like this. Maybe you or somebody else can give me some suggestions?

The case could be made that it is a waste of time trying to open her up when there are plenty of other good girls around without these issues. I won't disagree. I just don't want to get in the habit of running away from problems I should be manning up to and handling. At the same time, I'm not going to invest too much more time trying to unravel a mess somebody else created. I think this particular issue is the thing that has me on the fence the most.

She and I spoke about this the other day and she told me I routinely have terrible timing. I told her she needs to communicate more. She said that she is afraid that if she says something I don't like, I'll just get mad at her or dump her. I don't know where she'd get an idea like that from except an ex. I told her the only thing that would happen is that I would respect her for speaking up and it would make our relationship better.

 

[DJCT]

A quick update for anybody still interested. Things have gotten a lot better. Basically when I start taking myself and my time seriously, everything gets better--including things with the GF. Good advice from Latinoman on the particulars too. Helped me out a lot man. Thx.

 

[jophil28]

Not really off-topic but, should a Man try to "fix" the problems she's venting about or just say "uh huh, yea, uh huh, uh huh, i hear you" until she's done venting?

In all of my 30 some odd years of dealing with the broad spectrum of womanhood I have never encountered a woman who seeks SOLUTIONS to her problems or her grievances. Women COMPLAIN only and never take positive action towards doing things a better way, so what is the point of offering her a "fix" to her latest drama filled dilemma. She is never going to IMPLEMENT it anyways so why bother or waste your time .

Listening to women gripe is like mowing the yard - it is a huge pain but somebodys got to do it.

 

[jophil28]

I find her near impossible to read. She is reserved when it comes to expressing herself during intimacy. Initially I thought she would loosen up. She has improved some but not much. The thing w/ making noise during sex... she makes plenty of noise the last few minutes. It's leading up to that point that she doesn't. It's like she is minimizing all the reactions she has conscious control over. Because I can't read her I get in all sorts of trouble. Sometimes I move too fast when she isn't ready. Sometimes I move too slowly when she is ready. Both sins are equally unforgiveable.
speaking up and it would make our relationship better.

Let me tell you a story - I am a trained Ballroom and Latin dancer from way back- 20 years training . Recently I acquired a new G/f who is a beginner and she is in Dance BootCamp and has been for several months.

I also teach part-time and are used to taking clumsy women for one hour lessons and pushing them around the floor until they start to move elegantly on their own feet. THat is how we teach First Nighters.

My own Technique Coach is a no BS woman who came up to me a few days ago when she was coaching my G/f and me in training. She said ," Jophil you are dancing for YOU AND Helen. Quit being responsible for what she is doing or not doing ..You are focussing on what is wrong with her and NOT on your own performance . Dance for yourself, lead her confidently without pulling her, and let her do her own dance ..and eventually she will match you."

Ya get that ?

 

[DJCT]

Listening to women gripe is like mowing the yard - it is a huge pain but somebodys got to do it.

Hahaha

I have noticed one thing. When things in our relationship are good, the daily drama download only takes a minute or two, then she asks about my day and starts massaging my shoulders. When our relationship is not so good, the download can take a long time and then she closes up afterwards. That's why sometimes I think it is a cry for attention.

 

[DJCT]

Quit being responsible for what she is doing or not doing ..You are focussing on what is wrong with her and NOT on your own performance . Dance for yourself, lead her confidently without pulling her, and let her do her own dance ..and eventually she will match you."

This sounds like it's pretty much everything in a nutshell. Just like your sig says. Good post Jophil.

 

[Latinoman]

A quick update for anybody still interested. Things have gotten a lot better. Basically when I start taking myself and my time seriously, everything gets better--including things with the GF. Good advice from Latinoman on the particulars too. Helped me out a lot man. Thx.

You are welcome. I'm glad I could help.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Let me start by saying that I'm all for relatively older Men spinning younger plates. The sex is generally a better experience and free from the liabilities women of 30 or older usually have in tow by the time they reach this age. That said, getting with younger women isn't without it's own challenges, and I think this is your case. The 18-23 y.o. crop of girls are at a point where they're transitioning from adolescent social skills into adult ones, but needless to say a good percentage can still cling to the LTR/marriage goal mindset. The problem is that this conflicts with their newly realized sexual value and entering into their party years (23-28). Some change their minds about monogamy as a goal and some don't, however the conflict is the same - postpone monogamy and party or become monogamous and want to party. The girl you're with is the latter.

You don't fit her monogamy idealization so she tries to 'fix' you into becoming it. This is further complicated by her juvenile understanding of what monogamy should look like. Thus you get comments like, "Guys only think about sex, guys are all cheaters, guys are X, Y & Z,.." Then the comes the complaining that only young women can get away with. You'd be surprised how patient a guy can be listening to a young woman drone on about her petty difficulties in order to see that 23 y.o. ass bouncing off his cawk 2 hours later.

Enter you, early 30's AFC or rAFC thinking that a 23 y.o. plate deserves more attention than any other because she's "special". You're just becoming aware of your own value as a Man, but because the girl is a piece of ass and you see how she initially, passionately, responded to you in the beginning of your LTR, you slip into identifying yourself with what her inexperienced and adolescent expectations of monogamy are in order to recapture that passion. Thus, you think things like this:

The relationship is important to me and it might seem like I'm self-centered but it is only one of sevearl parts of my life. I like the girl a ton--no doubt. But like I said before, I think that the problems in our relationship indicate a general lack of me managing my life properly. Taking time for myself is not to manipulate her (to make her want me)---it's to get my life back under my control properly.

There is no faster way into hell than when you internalize for yourself that a "better you" would be more in line with what her idealizations of monogamy should be. This is probably the single most dangerous thing an AFC can do; to voluntarily, unconsciously, recreate himself to manifest what a woman's expectations of him are in order to preserve an LTR and to think it's the "way he should be."

She is in complete control of the frame and my guess is your prior LTR was too for much the same reasons. You've successfully repeated the process, so the question is, what are you doing that makes this result repeatable?

My gf says she doesn't want to be objectified, thinks that the only thing guys want is sex, thinks all guys are cheaters, doesn't want to give herself over to me full during sex. On the rare occasion she does give herself over to me, that is when we have the amazing sex.

This statement alone is grounds for an automatic NEXT. If she's unwilling to give you her best, who is she willing to give it to? What does that guy look like, act like, talk like? It's not you. It's certainly not the guy wiling to compromise himself with dribbling away his ours with a woman trying to find a way to placate her into being passionate with him. Go read The Desire Dynamic and you'll understand that the position you're in now is one of perpetually having to negotiate her desire. Desire cannot be negotiated. You will NEVER plead your case well enough to get her to be uncontrollably passionate with you, however, in your position, her power over you is rooted in you believing that you might. If you would just re-create yourself, of your own volition and in compliance with her juvenile monogamy fantasy, THEN she'll reeeeeealllly want to ƒuck you bad.

It gets to the point where anything contrary to this deductive "logic" seems like it's counterintuitive. You can't be anything less than her expectations because "she might leave me then." Guys who get caught in this loop become the terminal AFCs, the ones so convinced and optionless that nothing will unplug them. These are the 65 y.o. AFCs still buying little dogs and other things they think will appease their wives into being at all intimate with them, when that fire went out decades before and she became more used to the comfort of living with him than being intimate with him.

 

[DJCT]

Hi Rollo,

I understand and agree with what you wrote about falling into her expectations of monogamy--which I did. Still battling a lot of AFC mindset, hence my recent thread on positive masculinity.

When I talk about change though, I'm talking about taking back responsibility for all areas of my life. More specific to the relationship, this change means taking the lead again and taking responsibility. I am in no way talking about changing to win her favor.

Things aren't going the way I want them to because I failed to lead the relationship. Or rather, I stopped leading the relationship. At the start of the relationship I did lead things and everything was going well. I got comfortable and sloppy though, failed to take responsibility. What I'm saying is that the relationship problems woke me up to the fact that I wasn't taking responsibility for my life, including the relationship.

As far as the sex goes, it is getting better. It comes down to leading again. When I lack the confidence to lead, the sex is bad. When I lead the sex is good. She opens up. No mysteries there. If I were to lack confidence, NEXTing and moving on to another girl wouldn't change anything.

It's easy to lay blame on external factors but I know for a fact that all these things get better when I simply take responsibility for them. And I haven't been doing that. I respect your experience. Maybe you still have a completely different take. But this is how I see the situation after having some time to discuss and think about it.

Thanks,

- CT

-- EDIT

Wanted to add that I read The Desire Dynamic before but didn't get the chance to read it again before I posted. Thanks for the link and I'll read it again.