More mind games, and a few great moments.

[Rollo Tomassi]

I was considering this thread on Sunday morning with my regular coffee - I do my best thinking then - but then the Christmas lights had to go up or I was never going to get to them, so I decided not to post. Funny how the solitude of being alone on the roof of your house makes for such good introspection.

Anyway, what I kept coming back to was Law of Power #17. I know I drop these left & right on SS, but they never fail to frame a situation perfectly:

Law 17: Keep Others in Suspended Terror: Cultivate an Air of Unpredictability

Humans are creatures of habit with an insatiable need to see familiarity in other people's actions. Your predictability gives them a sense of control. Turn the tables: Be deliberately unpredictable. Behavior that seems to have no consistency or purpose will keep them off-balance, and they will wear themselves out trying to explain your moves. Taken to an extreme, this strategy can intimidate and terrorize.

Think about this for a moment; Your predictability gives them a sense of control. Nowhere is this more true than for women, and that's the paradox. By nature, women are security-seeking. Even their biochemistry illustrates this. The potential parent in them needs that dependability, however it's the excitement that comes from unpredictability that stimulates arousal for them. JOPHIL and BLUE PHOENIX's stories are excellent examples. By not resorting to predictable, safe reactions they both trigger that excitement and indignation that gives them an arousal rush.

The predictable response would've been to appease these women in an effort to get back to an amicable state - the state most AFCs think is optimal for initiating sex. All this does is reinforce a woman's sexual agency and affirms what she knows already about AFCs (if not most men in general) - they will tolerate almost anything for sex. That's the implied control in failing a sh!t test. She's experienced this so often that it's a common and universal truth for her, particularly if she's above average in her physical appeal.

So it's the unpredictable guy that is set apart from the appeasers. The unpredictable Man is the one for whom sex is no object and therefore she has no agency over. This isn't to say he's asexual; far from it. It implies he at least believes he has other viable options for sex and intimacy. Whether this is true or not is irrelevant because this is where a woman's imagination - a Man's most valuable tool - proves it's value.

While it may be self-satisfying to walk away from a situation that doesn't meet with your approval, think about the messages this conveys to the woman involved. Her first impression is that your action is disrespectful. "I can't believe he did that!" That initial shock of indignation fires off all kinds of chemical reactions in her - chemical reactions she now associates with you.

Next comes retribution, as amply illustrated by JOPHIL's SW. Although most initial sh!t tests by and large are involuntary for women, the ones that follow the first rarely are. JOPHIL's next test was dealing with SW's attempt at retribution; she wanted him to accept shame and culpability for his act of walking out on her. This is a planned followup for rebuff of the first sh!t test. Generally it's a "you owe me an apology" for my bad behavior principle, and this is the bluff that most guys don't have the stomach to call. Unfortunately it's also the most important test of a guy's resolve, and the one that will put him promptly back into her frame. Sometimes it's more overt as in BLUE PHOENIX's girl crying "What do you want from me?!" line. Those are the real tough ones to pass.

The last phase will be reconciliation. At some point, assuming her IL is peaked enough, a woman's imagination will get the better of her. If you had the resolve enough to pass her retribution tests, odds are she's left with the impression that you have something of value beyond the average men she's used to. If not she'll write you off and save you both a lot of time. But assuming she is, remember that the chemical rush from the first indignation, is still a persistent association with you. Reconciliation comes in the form of her attempting to reestablish that association again. Two weeks later you get the call "Are we still cool? You want to go out some time?" etc. This is the reset. It's at this point that she's covertly surrendering the frame to you once again. Now is the time to reevaluate your investment in the girl and proceed accordingly.

So what have we learned? For women there is no greater stimulant than unpredictability, and no greater suspended terror than the competition anxiety, imagined or otherwise, that results from possibly losing a Man with value enough to pass her sh!t tests. In other words a focused association of unpredictability is an excellent means of displaying higher value.

 

[Warrior74]

Yeah, I think that you are right.
Curiously, the cooler you are in the face of betrayal or disappoint,the more emotional are those around you.

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;
f you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!

Kipling - If

I keep this poem on my wall in my office and read it every now and then.

 

[Blue Phoenix]

Rollo your analysis is always spot on!!

This is definitely a hot topic. It goes well the the other topic "setting the frame". This is where most guys fail! They use CF, neg hit the girl, play the bad boy, but suddenly he doesn´t see when the girl starts setting the frame, which implies that she´s the great catch. From there on it´s game over!!!

I´ve been here for almost 6 years. This concept is really improving my game. Now it´s another level. We have to internalize it, setting the frame no matter what, even if it means losing the girl! Yet, we cannot confuse this with being controlling or overbearing.

The hot and stuck up girls really freak out because they don´t know what to do, that´s where "attraction isn´t a choice" comes in. They want to set the frame, however, they get turned off when it happens. That´s why hot girls fall in love with jerks, jerks don´t give a sh!t about them and control them. She hates it but it´s still better than hanging out with nice guys who let themselves be walked over like tamed puppies/p>sses.

That same girl once told me that I had to give in to her. "Girls don´t like guys who don´t do this!" Another time she said that If I kept doing that "I will never find a GF!!!" My spider sense was "ops!!!!" I laugh at it all the time. I really feel each time more confident when I can see their sh!t tests and do the opposite of what they expect. They go insane!!! :crackup:

I still have problems being more aggressive. I had a NPD father and I was always trained to be passive and subservient. I feel lost/awkward taking the lead. It´s not so simple as some people here say. It was years of social conditioning and brainwashing. Applying some lines is not gonna work. It must come from inside and you must believe it. Somehow it´s still funny because some girls think they can push me around (I kinda look like one) and sunddenly BAM, I "steal" their frame. It´s two times more effective because they didn´t see it coming! lol.

 

[Tazman]

Somehow it´s still funny because some girls think they can push me around (I kinda look like one) and sunddenly BAM, I "steal" their frame. It´s two times more effective because they didn´t see it coming! lol.

I can definitely identify with that. My appearance causes people to assume that they can get away with things that someone more intimidating wouldn't put up with.

I love the looks I get when I prove them wrong, it's such a shock to the system that they almost don't know how to react. When I was younger I actually won a few fights by being much more aggressive than guys thought I'd be, guys that had a size advantage. Words cannot describe the look on some of these guys faces, it was hilarious, when looking back on it.

Didn't win all of them, unfortunately.

 

[jophil28]

Whaaaaaaaaaat the F?
I almost can't believe that a woman would complain about the mode of transportation, but it's funny the way she turned it around. Maybe she's learning her lesson.
I don't think this would happen in the States, I believe people actually prefer trucks to cars here. Women like guys in trucks, makes them look rugged.

I'm sure you'll take some flak from some for continuing to see this HB, but it's amusing how you're sticking to the "friend" agenda.
The only thing I would say along those lines is you should try to meet some higher quality women. These seem to have a propensity for behaving badly, but it definitely makes for more entertaining reading that way.

Yeah I remember the 'truck' thing in the USA when I was working and lived at Bragg for a time.
Down here, trucks are popular with the boys in the country areas (almost compulsory) - in the cities, not so much.

I was tossing a coin between an F250 or a Suburban.

HB was probably expecting to be chaffeured in my Lexus, the poor, poor dear.

To your second point -why do I continue to see these women ?

Not 100% sure, but I am thinking that I need some available targets for practising my new ' low chivalry' style.

 

[grinder]

The last phase will be reconciliation. At some point, assuming her IL is peaked enough, a woman's imagination will get the better of her. If you had the resolve enough to pass her retribution tests, odds are she's left with the impression that you have something of value beyond the average men she's used to. If not she'll write you off and save you both a lot of time. But assuming she is, remember that the chemical rush from the first indignation, is still a persistent association with you. Reconciliation comes in the form of her attempting to reestablish that association again. Two weeks later you get the call "Are we still cool? You want to go out some time?" etc. This is the reset. It's at this point that she's covertly surrendering the frame to you once again. Now is the time to reevaluate your investment in the girl and proceed accordingly.

Although I truly hate “da laws” I acquiesce to their useful functionality. Unpredictability is another of those tools in our toolbox, that like all tools, just F’n works. You can even get away with some common mistakes if you can wield this tool. Jo wields it with playful abandon because, regarding HB, he really does not give a sh*t.

The sticky part, and the part I personally screw up, is in the reconciliation phase. In Jo’s case, the continuation of the “whateverItis” with HB. I and many, I presume, fail at the “Are we still cool” phase. After having my fun and setting the frame with impunity, it seems I fall back into the inertia of the business of the relationship and not much change really happens. This is because our HB’s will not, can not change, and it is not our job to change them. Our job is to recognize the futility of continuing the pattern and to terminate it.

I find that once I’ve entered this loop with a woman, it becomes infinite. I continually have to set the frame, set limits, and ultimately it is self-defeating; a waste of my time and energy.

I remind myself that I can always find a better woman.

 

[Jitterbug]

To your second point -why do I continue to see these women ?

Not 100% sure, but I am thinking that I need some available targets for practising my new ' low chivalry' style.

It's also easier to hook new fish when you have a few hanging around.

 

[Tazman]

^^^Same here.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

HB," Whaaaat ! You expect me to ride in that ? "

Jophil, " Yep."

HB," I don't want to go to a party in a TRUCK."

Jophil ( hackles rising, but keeping it cool)," Ok." ( Walks to driver's door)

HB," Where are you going ?"

Jophil," To the party. "

WIN! +1

 

[dalynxx]

Jophil that was classic! I love reading your posts!

 

[jophil28]

Tuesday night Dance Studio update--

OK, so I turn up for the usual class at 8pm. My 7pm student canceled her lesson by text( she said something about her G/f who is in a bad way- a broken nail or a lost lipstick perhaps) ..

So the class starts with some Waltz technique. I get to take the beginner class -and I am explaining how men lead and woman follow. Then I demonstrate the man's " frame" and go on to explain how a woman dances in a man's frame ( "frame" is his closed hold topline which comprises his two arms raised almost horizontally, plus the power through his shoulders )
I was thinking how male dominated the ballroom world is and how well it works when women learn to submit to a man's lead.

Anyways, SW walks in late, and gives me the coldest stare. She joins in to my class . I ignore her - I am working here.

Eventually we finish and then take a drink break. SW goes off to chat with some other women and then strides toward me - something is up.

SW," HEy Jophil, I need to talk to you outside."

Jophil, (spidey's tingling )," OK, as long as you don't get fresh."

SW," Jeez, why are you such a smarta**?"

Jophil," Let's go outside. Don't blow smoke in my face please, it's bad for my complexion."

SW scowls. I am grinning already.

SW turns to me outside and sighs," I have something to tell you. People are talking about you." (She watches for my reaction.)

Jophil," Hmm, I didn't realize that I was such an interesting person. I must be freakin' fascinating."

SW," There is a rumor doing the rounds that you have been seen with women in cars out back after class."

Jophil," Wow, did I score ?"

SW," This is serious - this person said that you do this kind of stuff often, You have been seen."

Jophil,'" Was this person one of my students - who was she ?" (suddenly I catch myself getting drawn into this faked up drama. So I stop talking.)

SW," I can't tell you."

Jophil," OK" (I walk away -)

SW follows me, tugs my arm, " It was Alana- but you can't say anything".

(Alana is this fugly 40 something Amazonian wreck who is the worst kind of "strong independent woman ". She is a bitter wannabe feminist crazy who has some kind of job in which she drives from company store to store and weeds out the weak and inefficient employees and fires them - nice, eh ?
Maybe she is pissed with me because I suggested that the caterers include raw meat for her at the last Christmas party.)

So I stand on the front steps, realize that I have been set up, and then I consider my options-

1. Get angry and go and rip on Alana for spreading gossip.
2. Rise above it, say nothing and pretend I heard nothing.(That was what I would have done a month ago).
3. Have some FUN !!

I choose #3 and so I walk back inside and go up to Alana who is watching me approach with a look of anxiety on her face. I notice that SW is watching from the sidelines.

Jophil ( with dead serious expression)," Hey ALana, I hear that you are spreading rumors about me doing sex things in the carpark with various women ?"

Alana, gets flushed, and says something like," Err, umm ..that is what I heard.." She looks away and then tries to stare me down - ha !

Jophil," Well I just want to say thanks...thank you. You have enhanced my reputation even further as the baddest man im the studio. I loved that rumor you started - Keep 'em coming, the juicier the better. I know I can depend on you. "

So I smile with all the polished insincerity that only a ballroom dancer can muster and walk away singing " Bad, bad Leroy Brown...."


Ahhh- you know, sometimes it just feels so right to be a 53 year old juvenile.

 

[Proselytiser]

Damn that is good. The best response to an insult is to take it as compliment

 

[Jitterbug]

Baddest man in the whole damn town!

In fact, having some pissed off woman spreading rumours of how much a playa you are around is the best thing!

I keep telling that too my friend who's hell bent on holding onto his rep as a "very very nice guy" and is dead afraid of offending any of the women to the slightest degree. All he's doing is to make sure every girl on the Girl Network knows not to ever have sex with him.

 

[Proselytiser]

Next time you should compare yourself to Casanova - 'I heard he got success on the strength of his reputation as a seducer, I'm happy to be considered in the same light as him' and watch the orgasmic shudder of indignation pass over her!

 

[ThunderMaverick]

Man, my reaction to that would have been for me to just shut down and ignored the gossip...My silence would fester inside. Jo actually f*cking turned it around in the most amazing way. It pisses me off when I don't think of changing my perspective in that way.

Well, another note to take. Good stuff, J man!

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear Joh,
You are soo right,being a Casanova hurts dance instructors like it hurts Ski Instructors....Example...One of my previous Dancing Studios Started employing a Tall,try 6Foot3 dark and handsome 28 year old he would shag anything that moved and give it a shove if it didn't...boy he had a reputation Madame who conducted the School ( Who I think he was dipping his wick into anyways)was of two minds,on one hand our gay Lothario had an appointment book full for months ahead on the other no one wanted to dance with her other instructors....What a joke...Oh Joh I am so happy to see how this silly game is evolving...You guys out there if you want to play this game,learn to dance.

 

[zekko]

Ahhh- you know, sometimes it just feels so right to be a 53 year old juvenile.

Yeah, you seem to be cultivating the older "bad boy" persona. Not a bad role to play. My question is what was the SW's motivation for bringing this rumor to your attention? My guess is she knows you're macking with some of the other girls there and wants to put a stop to it if she can (a futile gesture).

Here's the other thing that rouses my curiousity:
I know this dance instructor thing is just a sideline for you, but does this enter into the area of "don't sh!t where you eat" at all? Pulling dates from your students, I mean? It certainly wouldn't matter to me because anything beats picking up chicks at clubs in my mind, but I was wondering what your thoughts were on the subject.

 

[logic1]

Yeah, you seem to be cultivating the older "bad boy" persona. Not a bad role to play. My question is what was the SW's motivation for bringing this rumor to your attention? My guess is she knows you're macking with some of the other girls there and wants to put a stop to it if she can (a futile gesture).

Ah, yes a very good question.

I was going thru a phase in my life where I would frequent certain clubs on a regular basis. I was not shy towards the women who would be the so called regulars and the new patrons who would come in on the busy weekends. I guess you could say I got around. Walked out of the club with many different women over the course of time.

One night a women pulled me off to the side and said the other women were talking about how they thought I was a big flirt and a man *****. She suggested I start acting a different way for my own good. ( not the exact words but close)

I think they are trying to make you feel guilty for some odd reason. Like they are the ones to make you guilt free?

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

SW is still in the retribution stage, and has now enlisted an accomplice to effect it. The fabricated (or not) rumors are little more than a shaming tactic with the latent purpose of assassinating your character - if you'd allowed it. JOPHIL, again, plays this masterfully by agreeing and amplifying her blunderingly obvious, not to mention premeditated, accusations, effectively deflating what she'd thought would rattle his cage.

Not satisfied with this, he takes it a step further with Alana, in a textbook illustration of Law 28:

Law 28: Enter Action with Boldness
If you are unsure of a course of action, do not attempt it. Your doubts and hesitations will infect your execution. Timidity is dangerous: Better to enter with boldness. Any mistakes you commit through audacity are easily corrected with more audacity. Everyone admires the bold; no one honors the timid.

JOPHIL could've easily ignored this incident, but all that would've done was embolden these conspirators. By confronting Alan, he displays audacity to both her and SW (remember he wasn't supposed to say anything?) and acknowledges her as a co-conspirator. Also, note that Alana attempts to defer the rumor to another ambiguous source rather than own it herself.

Now, admittedly, this all seems very adolescent, especially considering these women are in their 40s and JOPHIL is 53. However, this is the level to which these "adult" women have chosen to engage themselves, all in the pursuit of the rush that results from indignation. In fact, they've manufactured it for themselves by concocting rumors about JOPHIL, only to have him up their hormonal dosage beyond their best expectation with his response.

To really appreciate this, reverse the gender roles. What if it were two men creating rumors about a female dance instructor that one of them had been intimately interested in at some point? What would these men do if the woman, had called them to the carpet, agreed and amplified in a similar fashion? In all likelihood they would never show their faces in that class again. Not so for women. They'll hungrily return again and again, like junkies looking for a fix, until such time as JOPHIL ceases to give it to them, or they grow bored and find another source of indignation.

 

[jophil28]

Yeah, you seem to be cultivating the older "bad boy" persona. Not a bad role to play. My question is what was the SW's motivation for bringing this rumor to your attention? My guess is she knows you're macking with some of the other girls there and wants to put a stop to it if she can (a futile gesture).


Here's the other thing that rouses my curiousity:
I know this dance instructor thing is just a sideline for you, but does this enter into the area of "don't sh!t where you eat" at all? Pulling dates from your students, I mean? It certainly wouldn't matter to me because anything beats picking up chicks at clubs in my mind, but I was wondering what your thoughts were on the subject.

The answer to your first question about SW's motivation is exquisitely given by ROLLO above. He said it much better that I could have explained it.

Secondly,the issue of dating students is a gray one, indeed.
There are no firm prohibitions in this matter. However, it is expected ( and understood) that discretion will prevail between the staff and students .
Maintaining that is sometimes a difficult undertaking in a roomful of stimulated male\female couples engaged in vertical foreplay.