More mind games, and a few great moments.

[jophil28]

JoPhil what would you have done if she accepted the making you dinner offer?

Probably I would have continued the mindgames...

SW, " Ok, I'll make you dinner - how does Tuesday night sound ?"

Jophil," Dinner Tuesday? Let me get back to you on that ...By the way, dinner just means dinner .." ( said with deadpan expression)

 

[grinder]

It takes nads to post a FR knowing it will be picked apart. Nice work jophil28.

The critical lesson I see here is you don’t have to tolerate sh*tty behavior from women, you call them on it, and, paradoxically, they are immediately more attracted to you for it.

But this begs the question: What do you want from these women? If, as some say, ALL women play games and test, then you cannot disqualify them for this or their literally would be none left. You would be perennially NEXTING.

I think it’s important to differentiate setting boundaries and maintaining the frame in a relationship (which can include walking away), from wasting your energy on a low quality woman and being pulled into game-playing that drains your energy and produces nothing of value.

This is subjective and sometimes hard to have the self-knowledge of when you are on the slippery slope of loosing the frame with any woman. It takes wisdom to know when to eject.

 

[logic1]

Jophil is continuing to live his life as he did before he met the women. He is still doing his passion(dancing). Nothing has changed. They are coming to his door step. He does not have much choice but to play along. The degree is up to him.

I dont think he can ban them from the dance classes.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

He would've come off like some high school professor explaining to a student why they shouldn't be tardy to his class.

perhaps you misunderstood my intentions, or I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't advocating anything other than a clear and unemotional expression of personal boundries. In this case, Dale Carnegies famous personal stop loss.

I learned that from a Dale Carnegie book I read years ago (not the most famous one) Never, ever wait more than fifteen minutes for somebody you don't know well.

I base this on personal experience. I left my first ever interview in high school after fifteen minutes because the interviewer was late. She called me back later and hired me.

I had a three year relationship with a girl that was NEVER later than ten minutes to a date because I LEFT after fifteen minutes waiting on our first meet up. What I said suggested to Uncle Joe was pretty much what I told her.

You could say that's just a more satisfying way of bringing a woman down a notch,

I never expressed any interest in bringing a woman down a notch. Qualify or disqualify, while completely allowing her her choices. I'm not interested in "teaching" or acting like a professor as you may have imagined.

how would you like her last impression of you to be? Coming off as a pensive, sulking professor, or a worthy adversary who understands how to deal with a woman's sh!t tests?

Interesting presuppositions.

1) Women are an enemy (worthy adversary). I disagree.

2) A disqualified woman's opinion of your social skills is relevant. I disagree.

However I can see how a belief in number (2) can easily cause number (1) to seem true.

 

[Die Hard]

I never expressed any interest in bringing a woman down a notch. Qualify or disqualify, while completely allowing her her choices. I'm not interested in "teaching" or acting like a professor as you may have imagined.





Interesting presuppositions.

1) Women are an enemy (worthy adversary). I disagree.

2) A disqualified woman's opinion of your social skills is relevant. I disagree.

However I can see how a belief in number (2) can easily cause number (1) to seem true.

I think taiyuu is right on track with this. The whole urge to "teach her a lesson" is a sign of weakness to me. You should be above it and if you're not above it, then you are not above her (which makes nexting her more difficult). Of course it's no biggie if you can't do this immediately, as long as you do it soon enough. I think Jophil couldn't really next her right away either, even though his common sense knew he had to do so. But clearly he gathered himself pretty soon and got above it/her.

 

[jophil28]

But this begs the question: What do you want from these women? If, as some say, ALL women play games and test, then you cannot disqualify them for this or their literally would be none left. You would be perennially NEXTING.

Interesting question - what do I want from them?
I am not sure that I can articulate my reasons in a few words.
-----------
A few weeks ago ROLLO posted about male "chivalry" and how it can be (and frequently is ) exploited by women. I gave his post a lot of thought. At one level I agreed with him, but my conditioning was pulling me into defending my cherished chivalry.
I was an army brat as a kid, and I eventually followed my father's example into the ranks and ascended to become "an officer and a gentleman."
The military loves it's rituals and traditions, and resists change fiercely, even when change is wise.
The culture in which I was raised, and then trained, had a strong and lingering British influence. Stiff upper lip - and so on.
One such tradition is (or was) the manner and style in which men are expected to treat women, and in particular, speak to women.
Without realizing it, I and my fellow officers, were 'educated' to adopt a different way of conversing with women.
WE constructed 'filters' to remove words and phrases that were considerd acceptable between men, but offensive when speaking to women.

Longstory short, I became aware ( thanks to RT's post) of how strongly and habitually these 'filters' were operating in me.
And then the questions started to float to the surface. "Why do women today deserve to be spoken to as if they were 'delicate' or 'precious ' ".
Of course there is no legitimate reason for adopting ,or perpetuating a stilted conversational style with women to avoid the possibility of offense.
And worst of all, I always felt less that authentic when I was aware of speaking through this self imposed censorship, and I still do....and so a challenge arose. I decided to discard the carefully crafted speech and replace it with a freer and more spontaneous style.

I am also aware that I had bought into the civilian belief that 'manly' speech was repulsive (or at least unattractive) to most women .
After reading ROLLO a few times , a switch flipped ON and I vowed to quit believing that a woman's approval requires concocted speech or contrived behavior. And so a lot of my "chivalrous" behavior had to go...a fork in the road was drawing near.

AS recently as one month ago, I would have just waited patiently in SW's living room while she counseled her G/f without a word courtesy to me.... On that occasion I had arrived at that fork in the road, and so I took the high road - the 'self value' road, and I could care less about her upset or her lack of approval.
There is no going back now- I am no longer willing to trade counterfeit behavior or manufactured conversation for a woman's approval.


..enough typing for one night.

 

[jophil28]

I think taiyuu is right on track with this. The whole urge to "teach her a lesson" is a sign of weakness to me. You should be above it and if you're not above it, then you are not above her (which makes nexting her more difficult). Of course it's no biggie if you can't do this immediately, as long as you do it soon enough. I think Jophil couldn't really next her right away either, even though his common sense knew he had to do so. But clearly he gathered himself pretty soon and got above it/her.

Firstly, Taiyuu is entitled to react or not react in ways that make sense to him and his personal philosophies.. That does not make his methods universally 'right' or better than your's or mine.

Secondly , I have no problem with "teaching someone a lesson" if I deem it appropriate - but it seems that YOU do. Therefore don't do it if you find it offensive or demeaning.

Further, if you bother to read my post #37 in which I explain my thinking, and my motivations on that night, you will notice that there is NO mention of "teaching her a lesson" - that is a notion that you are forcing into this story for whatever reason.

 

[Die Hard]

I'm not really trying to judge your actions/thoughts/intentions here, Jophil. My intention was more to make a general point about the urge to teach a girl a lesson and the point was more directed at all readers, rather than you in particular.

I believe one should strive to be above a girl and not get caught in emotions of "getting back at her" or "teaching her a lesson", because that will make nexting her (and stick with it) more difficult. I'm propagating this as sort of a basic safety rule for people. Obviously, one can make exceptions to this rule and certainly you can, but it wasn't directed at you personally.

But nonetheless, I wanna address your statement about not intending to teach her a lessonl. You refer to post #37. Well, let me quote from that same post then:

I deliberately spoke to her like a jerk and a smart azz because I wanted her to know that I did not give a fvck.

That's exactly the kind of emotion I'm referring at. Perhaps "teaching her a lesson" isn't the appropriate description for it but I simply mean this urge to let her know that you don't care. Ironically, this urge itself (the urge to show that you don't care), shows that you do care!! Not trying to discredit you in any way but just pointing out... It's no problem that you had this urge but what I'm simply trying to point out here is that this urge, in general, should be tried to kept under control. A lot of people who are not as experienced as you, get overtaken by this urge and can't properly let go of a girl they've "nexted" because this urge is preventing them from moving on!


@ hansol: There is no such thread. However, there IS a thread where people like you falsely accuse me of certain things. Actually, by expressing this

Pot and kettle and all that stuff

over here, this has now become the second thread where I'm being falsely accused. I wonder how many threads you intend to add to this number.... But please, be my guest! If you wanna make yourself look like an immature *sshole, go ahead!

 

[Tazman]

I think the term "nit picking" is in order here.

 

[backbreaker]

there has now been 14 pages of text about this chick that stated on a date she wanted to bang 3 guys.

and everyone else is nitpicking. okay.

 

[ThunderMaverick]

^^^
Someone is acting like a baby.

this has now become the second thread where I'm being falsely accused. I wonder how many threads you intend to add to this number.... But please, be my guest! If you wanna make yourself look like an immature *sshole, go ahead!

I remember you making YOURSELF look like an immature a$$hole when you aren't clear on your contradictions (you just love to dodge critical questions). We don't have to talk about you in this thread. Let's stick to yours. ^_~

 

[Die Hard]

^^^
Someone is acting like a baby.




I remember you making YOURSELF look like an immature a$$hole when you aren't clear on your contradictions (you just love to dodge critical questions). We don't have to talk about you in this thread. Let's stick to yours. ^_~

Let's stay with the facts: You ARE talking about me in this thread, everyone can see you are doing so. Everyone can see that you've taken the arguement from my thread over here and are disturbing this thread with it. The facts speak for themselves, kid... Now will you please crawl back under the rock you came from? You're disturbing a great thread here...

 

[ThunderMaverick]

I have a problem with people who aren't genuine like me. Here's my problem: there are dishonest people who I come across that say they're confident and truthful and steadfast in their motives - You've displayed NONE of these qualities that you've boasted about. You actually ENJOY dodging questions because you're afraid we'll lose much more respect for you.

We have people like Rollo and Jo and Backbreaker here in the Mature Men forum who have integrity and will say or act on something and let the chips fall where they may; they're genuine men, like me. They'll answer truthfully any answer you throw at them.

I just want to SQUEEZE the truth out of you so I know how seriously to take you. I want to respect you. I really do. You're not giving me (and others here) a reason to do so.

Due to your sketchy nature, you really bother me. It's my problem to deal with though. Don't worry about it.

 

[Die Hard]

Sorry everyone, this arguement between Thunder and myself has nothing to do with this thread but I didn't start it and I will not refrain from answering when someone else is being negative about me.

ThunderMaverick, when I told people in my opening post that I'm absolutely sure that I can stay out of the web of my BPD ex while attempting to get into her pants, I naturally expected some initial doubt in the responses. But exactly BECAUSE I'm a confident and truthful person in general, I will feel disrespected when the initial doubt persists, even turns into extreme doubt, and a whole bunch of people goes on a frenzy, questioning and analyzing every little detail of my posts in search of proof that invalidates their extreme doubt. I have TOO much self-respect, I am TOO much of a truthful person and I'm TOO confident of myself, to NOT regard such a strong display of doubt as disrespect. If you're a self respecting, truthful, confident guy yourself, you will know where I'm coming from.

If I were some kind of inexperienced, inconfident kid, you (and others in that thread) would indeed be the wise old men on the mountain who have every right to SQUEEZE the truth out of me so they know how serious to take me. And me, as the inexperienced, inconfident kid with little self respect or self confidence, would naturally allow you to do so, because I would know that you are well above me, just like a beginner martial arts student wouldn't ask questions to his old 'sensei' coz he KNOWS the 'sensei' is well above him and it would be inappropriate to question his training methods. But if I am a confident, truthful person myself, obviously I will not allow you to assume the position of wise old men on the mountain towards me and allow you to SQUEEZE the truth out of me in order to determine how serious you should take me. On the contrary, I will regard your behavior as DISRESPECT. Only a person with great self-knowledge would feel disrespected when others question his self-knowledge... If I didn't have great self-knowledge and experience with BPD's, I would have no problem at all with the thorough questioning you and others are subjecting me to in my thread. You should be able to draw this conslusion yourself, you know...

But I'll go even further and tell you this: Your questioning, examining and reasoning is all very unprofessional, you're being blindsided by your own biases and stereotypical ideas while trying to SQUEEZE the truth out of me. So not only do I feel disrespected because people show extreme doubt regarding something I happen to excel at (self knowledge, especially when it comes to dealing with BPD's), as if that is not enough, my experience of disrespect is increased further by the fact that these people can't even form a truthful opinion of me because of the biases and stereotypical ideas in their heads. It's bad enough that they force me to prove myself but what's worse is that the people I'm proving myself to, are not able to see me for what I am, even though I try to show them! Here's my conflict: If I disregard your doubts and don't try to prove myself to you, you'll say that I'm evading your questions and therefor that I have something to hide, which means to you that I don't wanna admit that I'm lying about my ability to stay out of her web. However, if I do try to prove myself, you either:

1. Still keep applying biases and stereotypical ideas, interpreting every piece of information only on it's value to proof your assumption, disregarding it's value to disprove your assumption. In other words: You're convinced I'm lying and you only focuss on bits of information that could proof I'm lying, while totally disregarding any bits of information that could proof I'm NOT lying.

or

2. You reason that, since I'm trying to prove myself to you (which I need to do in order to get your advice on how to approach her), I can't possibly have the confidence and self-knowledge needed to stay out of the web of a BPD. Coz if I had that confidence and self-knowledge, I wouldn't need your help on seduction skills, you reason... (I've already explained in my thread that this reasoning is flawed, but I'll touch this subject again later on in this post)

In other words, I CAN'T prove myself to you because you lack the ability to LET me prove myself. So in the end, all you've done by questioning and examining me and my thoughts so ferociously, is tell me how serious to take you! You've shown to me that your ability to form a truthful opinion about me is insufficient...

But all this "finding out who is who" has to do with self-knowledge in general, the ability to analyse others in general and general wisdom. I have no interest in getting into a contest with you or anyone else to see who comes out on top when we compare general personality traits. That's not what I'm here for!! What I'm here for, is to learn specific skills and rules that apply to the art of seduction. And even though all of the stuff I've already adressed in this post is related to the art of seduction, there is no 1-on-1 relation between them. A guy could be extremely good at analysing others, have extremely high self knowledge, have great self confidence (which in itself is a quality that fluctuates with the situations a person finds himself in. Tiger Woods might have super self confidence on the golf track or super self confidence when being interviewed but he might have pretty low self confidence when he's arguing with his wife over the road they will follow after everything that happened recently. Sure, someones self confidence could be high on average, that doesn't mean it's high in every type of situation, especially situations one hasn't much experience with), have great wisdom in general, that still doesn't automatically mean he's good at the art of seduction. It would probably mean he has a lot of potential at becoming good at the art of seduction, though! Now this distinction is exactly what you and a lot of other guys are overlooking when you reason to yourself: "This Die Hard can't possibly have the self-knowledge and psychological strength to stay out of the web his BPD ex will try to catch him in, because if he did have it, he would also be a master at the art of seduction and thus wouldn't need our help on how to approach her!" Now that I've cleared up this error in your reasoning, perhaps you'll be able to put the dots together after all and believe that I'm not lying when I say I can stay out of the web of my BPD ex.

P.S. If you don't "get it" after this post, I'm gonna kill myself... *keeps fingers crossed*

 

[Die Hard]

double post

 

[Blue Phoenix]

He's not trying to "withdraw sex". He's trying to f*ck with her head. And succeeding.

Women play the whole "withdrawing sex" game, men do not.

Now I'm not sure if he intentionally wants to ditch these girls, as some of his "moves" are just a bit over the top, but if you read all these "field reports", you'll notice something...most of them involve different women. Jophil is "spinning a lot of plates", here.

Most women WILL go psycho on you at some point or other. They're trained to do that to see if they can leverage power by making the man compromise his OWN code of ethics/conduct to try to satisfy her. If he WILL, then she can make him do anything.

Jophil refuses to let women steal the frame through neurosis. The GOOD women will recognize this and fall into line...either that or become MORE attracted to him. The bad ones will press on until the stress becomes too great for them and then leave. Either way, Jophil wins.

It's people trying to "salvage" relationships with head-cases like this girl that have led women to act out in the first place...they think they can get away with it. If more men were like Jophil, women would appreciate having a decent man in their lives in the first place.

Women want to be seen as being on equal footing with men. That's fine, but not when they act like 6-year-old boys...throwing the psychological equivalent of tantrums. The "candy bar" they want is the creation of drama in a man's life, through which she can manipulate him. Jophil is a "good parent".

Lol. I was dealing with a lying AW who was flirting like hell with me. Yet, when I said I was going to jump over her she said "yuck".

The next day I LJBF her and she was crying!! Another day, I went out with her and she didnt let me pay for her lunch (bad signal). In another day, she asked me to hang out, I said NO. Then, she asked me "What do you want from me?" (she knew it this SOB). I said "Nothing!" :crackup:

Later she was touching me like hell!!!! :crackup:

This biatch must have never seen a guy LJBF her or Withdraw sex from her. I shattered her frame!! They have huge egos.

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear Joh,
"The culture in which I was raised, and then trained, had a strong and lingering British influence. Stiff upper lip".....Joh not just British but found in most cultures that have left their mark,and strongly Masculine.
The celebrated British stiff upper lip,the resolve to conceal emotion,which is not only embarrassing and useless,but harmful,is just plain common sense.Whatever sorrow is felt,there is no sense in brooding about it,much less in making for forms sake,a parade of it.Better and far healthier to forget it and look to tomorrow.
The current values system that applauds emotion,is very much driven by the Feminist agenda.The damage that fashionable attitudes,reflected in the media,do to the Public Spirit is incalculable....It is my belief,and I hope yours too, that the stiff upper lip,the ability to move on from emotional betrayal,is part of a DJ's make up.

 

[jophil28]

....It is my belief,and I hope yours too, that the stiff upper lip,the ability to move on from emotional betrayal,is part of a DJ's make up.

Yeah, I think that you are right.
Curiously, the cooler you are in the face of betrayal or disappoint,the more emotional are those around you.

Here is my weekend in 200 or so words-

HB called me Friday and invited me to Lorraine's Christmas party Saturday night ( HB was my G/F and she was also the lady who played in the Leanne drama- remember her ? )
Lorraine is one of HB's long time girls, and lives five minutes from HB.-

Anyway, I agree to go (Lorraine puts on a HUGE spread) . I told HB that I would pick her up at about 7pm.
SO I pull into her drive in my recently acquired 2005 model F250.
I knock on the door, HB opens it with a BIG smile, grabs her purse and we walk down the path. She gets in front of the truck and balks...


HB," Whaaaat ! You expect me to ride in that ? "

Jophil, " Yep."

HB," I don't want to go to a party in a TRUCK."

Jophil ( hackles rising, but keeping it cool)," Ok." ( Walks to driver's door)

HB," Where are you going ?"

Jophil," To the party. " ( In the past I would have either pleaded with her to get aboard and explain how great of a truck it is, OR called a cab for both of us while thinking what a wannabe snotty socialite from the 'burbs she really is ).

I start the F250 and shift into reverse. BY now HB is standing in front like a kangaroo in the headlights.
She suddenly moves around to the passenger side and rips the door open as I reverse out. By now I am chuckling and she is pissed as she climbs in.

Jophil, " You really shouldn't climb into a moving vehicle, you know."

HB, (suddenly changes mood to 'party pleasant ' and gets jolly)

The party was much the usual 'run of the mill' Christmas bash.. HB ran around and renewed her flimsy social contracts with most of the attendees.
I wound up reading a magazine and chatting to Maggie who is a hot cougar. WE have always gotten along , Suddenly HB appears with a plate of cheese cake and pushes it toward me. None for Maggie.

The rest of the night was uneventful. Dropped HB off at a little after midnight.

She hinted at "coffee" but I declined.

 

[Julius_Seizeher]

You handled the truck objection way better than I would. I would have left a diesel fog in her suburban yuppie yard!

 

[zekko]

HB," Whaaaat ! You expect me to ride in that ? "
Jophil, " Yep."
HB," I don't want to go to a party in a TRUCK."

Whaaaaaaaaaat the F?
I almost can't believe that a woman would complain about the mode of transportation, but it's funny the way she turned it around. Maybe she's learning her lesson.
I don't think this would happen in the States, I believe people actually prefer trucks to cars here. Women like guys in trucks, makes them look rugged.

I'm sure you'll take some flak from some for continuing to see this HB, but it's amusing how you're sticking to the "friend" agenda.
The only thing I would say along those lines is you should try to meet some higher quality women. These seem to have a propensity for behaving badly, but it definitely makes for more entertaining reading that way.