MLK Day

[K B]

I'm not saying you haven't infct i'd be shocked if you didn't. But can you really blame the african american community for being angry?

Following your logic and the logic of most blacks, allow me to give you an example of how stupid that is: Let us suppose your great-great grandfather KILLED my great-great grandfather. Does that mean that now YOU owe ME? Does that mean I have a right to be angry with the entire black race for a past wrong that I my "people" suffered? As long as the black community feels anger and resentment to the white community for the past, they will never be able to forgive and "heal," and Martin Luther King Jr.'s speech will NEVER be realized. That is why I feel this holiday has no place. The black community idolizes this man, yet they insult what he stood for by constantly pointing the finger at the white man for their own problems.

Well concidering african americans did not have access to finacial schooling or progresson for 200 years as american society developed, then just recently they're told "Okay now things are equal"...that's 200 years of schooling and knowledge that they didn't recieve. How d you make up for that? Beat me, but I also know that after slavery the black community, jewish, native americans, and several other races were made to live in "ghettos" (which by definition means area set aside for a select group of people) and were second class citizens.

Contrary to popular belief, black schools were doing VERY WELL before the schools were segregated. In fact, black scholastics were much better then than they are now. Blacks in those days knew that education is what would get them far in life, and be successful, not so today. You take an intelligent, well-educated and successful black man that thinks for himself and you have a fine black man that has been ridiculed and accused of "acting white," a "sellout," and "Uncle Tom" from, not white people, but BLACK PEOPLE! When black had their own schools, they did better for themsleves, and so did the whites, for that matter.

How do we make up for that? I think that the white community has done all that it can possibly do. We freed the slaves. We allowed the blacks to live in our communities and go to our schools. We have given them programs to advance in the workforce. And just what are they doing now except throwing it all up in our faces and blaming us for SOMETHING everyday that happened in the past. It's entirely up to the black community now, but they find it easier to sit and complain about *past* racism and wait for a handout from the white community. Blacks will NEVER progress until they can look MORE to the future instead of lingering about the past wrongs they had to endure. Until they can pull THEMSLEVES out of this "victim" mentality, they will forever be a nuicance to the rest of the country.

Try being ANYONE of any ethnicity walking through those areas. It's not a good idea but again those people were raised by mostly poor uneducated people who never had a shot at bettering their lives. Sure there were "opporunities" if that's what you want to call them but in places like that it's really majority rule. Gang bangers and drug dealers have created a horrible societal loop that's far more difficult to escape...other then in a box.

What does that tell you about the BLACK community? Yes, it is horrible for ANYONE to walk through there. But, let me ask you: if the population of "gang bangers and drug dealers" are mostly if not all black, WHO do you think has the worst chance of survival if they happen to take a wrong turn and end up there by mistake?

Trailer parks are like this for whites but they lack the level of violence and sheer concentration of people.

You said it PRMoon. I wonder why that is? Could it be that blacks are more violent than their white counterparts? I guess that is also why whites typically do NOT want to live among blacks, and why blacks get MAD at white people and call them "racist" when they leave; even blacks instinctively KNOW what will happen once an area becomes majority black.

Affirmative action was created becuase there was proven statistical evidence that people of color were intentially passed over for "equal employment" positions regularly. Why this was happening? God only knows. but the numbers don't lie.

And there was a TIME for "affirmative action." That time has passed. Every public school in America is now segregated, so there is no reason WHY blacks deserve special treatment any longer.

If you want to, take a look anyhere about the kinds of school systems that most urban african americans even have offered to them. That should clear up why exactly the obsticles for them to get around aren't exactly on par with those given to white communities.

I want to. The vast majority of schools are now segreagated. That means that blacks go to the same schools as whites do. The only exception is in areas that there are no whites. Now, take a good hard look at these schools where there are no whites. These schools are racked by crime and violence. Most of them fail basic skills tests which means that they can barely read, most don't graduate, and most have teachers that are in danger every single day because of the high violence concentration. Now compare these schools with the predominately white schools. Why can't the black community provide adequate, safe schooling for their OWN children in their OWN communities? Why do they depend on the white community to help save them from THEMSELVES? If you think THAT is because of past "wrongs," you are not near as intelligent as you THINK you are.

The white community cannot save the black community from THEMSLEVES!

If the white community owes ANYONE, it is the Native American Indians.

 

[The Edge]

K B you have every right to be upset. So do you PRMoon, you guys have every right to feel this way.

I am actually mixed myself, and what I do see is a younger white generation that is upset about having to pay for their forefathers errors or mistakes, whatever you want to call it.

The African American generation that lived through the times when blacks were not allowed to drink from the same fountains as whites, are extremely adamant about letting the younger black generation know exactly what they went through.

Unfortunately, this yields two types of products. There are black youth who use this advantage to better themselves in this apparently racially equivalent environment we now have, and then there are the ones who unfortunately still blame whitey.

In a sense we as a people are still trying to figure out which of the above makes up the majority of the way blacks think today. In the process we regard MLK as a trailblazer, regardless of his flaws.

Did he single-handedly turn all whites away from treating blacks as second hand citizens, no..because not all whites in the US were or are like that.

However we still identify with him. He did major things, and since he was the first non violent black leader who actually made significant progress and got results, he was our guide.

Progress for African Americans now is a struggle. One because it is unchartered territory.The main/biggest reason we are still where we are, and act the way we do, is because the only leader that took us across to where we are was shot and killed ...MLK

A small illustration bear with me:

We went from going into the hotels through the back doors, everyday until someone(MLK) showed up one day, and said:

" Follow me through the front door. We don't need to go through the back anymore"
So we followed him in the front door, we got in, and then he was killed as soon as we got in. Now what do we do, the guy who lead us in the door left us in here by ourselves.


We were told we could stay, so some of us decided to work our way to the top floors and live in the suites regardless of the white friendly onlookers and the other hecklers. Others decided to lay down in the kitchen and eat and pretty much not do anything.

So in actuality we are stuck.. We look to Black Actors, entertainers, and athletes to move us from where we were, to be successful. However, even though they are capable of assuming this role, none of them step up.

So as long as this keeps on happening, no leaders show up, we still try to grow, but without a leader, we grow sporadically in certain locations. Some blacks are successful and others are still looking to the 60's and waiting for whitey to make amends, or even tell them what to do in most cases.

Once again both of your arguments are well founded. But until we hit the root of the problem these arguments are going to go back and forth, aimlessly, with no resolution.

Edge

 

[seanchai]

Originally posted by K B
Following your logic and the logic of most blacks, allow me to give you an example of how stupid that is: Let us suppose your great-great grandfather KILLED my great-great grandfather. Does that mean that now YOU owe ME? Does that mean I have a right to be angry with the entire black race for a past wrong that I my "people" suffered? As long as the black community feels anger and resentment to the white community for the past, they will never be able to forgive and "heal," and Martin Luther King Jr.'s speech will NEVER be realized. That is why I feel this holiday has no place. The black community idolizes this man, yet they insult what he stood for by constantly pointing the finger at the white man for their own problems.

The difference between this and, for instance, slavery and Jim Crow is that the latter two were institutional and your example is individual. You could, of course, hold a grudge against the family who did that, but since it was the government who instituted and perpetuated slavery, descendants have a right to be pissed and demand something from the government, DESPITE the fact that those in government now had nothing to do with it. Crimes against humanity have no statute of limitations.

Contrary to popular belief, black schools were doing VERY WELL before the schools were segregated. In fact, black scholastics were much better then than they are now. Blacks in those days knew that education is what would get them far in life, and be successful, not so today. You take an intelligent, well-educated and successful black man that thinks for himself and you have a fine black man that has been ridiculed and accused of "acting white," a "sellout," and "Uncle Tom" from, not white people, but BLACK PEOPLE! When black had their own schools, they did better for themsleves, and so did the whites, for that matter.

Here you're talking sense again. Tom Sowell makes this case in his book "Black Rednecks and White Liberals". Sowell is a black conservative who often rails against the "help" offered by liberal white Americans, help that usually hurts the black community. However, Sowell makes the case to show that blacks need not be pandered to, not that schools should be segregated. I think you're drawing the wrong conclusion from the data.

How do we make up for that? I think that the white community has done all that it can possibly do. We freed the slaves. We allowed the blacks to live in our communities and go to our schools. We have given them programs to advance in the workforce. And just what are they doing now except throwing it all up in our faces and blaming us for SOMETHING everyday that happened in the past. It's entirely up to the black community now, but they find it easier to sit and complain about *past* racism and wait for a handout from the white community. Blacks will NEVER progress until they can look MORE to the future instead of lingering about the past wrongs they had to endure. Until they can pull THEMSLEVES out of this "victim" mentality, they will forever be a nuicance to the rest of the country.

You're making a case that has been made many times over by black nationalists, particularly Orlando Patterson. He argued that change in the black community will only come from within, because the white community will never offer real help. I don't see the programs white America has offered as helpful to the black community, but I see the necessity for actual aid. As Dyson pointed out, it IS racist for white people to make the internalist argument for black communities because whites are absolved of the requirement to help make life better.

You said it PRMoon. I wonder why that is? Could it be that blacks are more violent than their white counterparts? I guess that is also why whites typically do NOT want to live among blacks, and why blacks get MAD at white people and call them "racist" when they leave; even blacks instinctively KNOW what will happen once an area becomes majority black.

Calling black people instinctively violent IS racist. It's ascribing stereotypical beliefs of conduct to an uncontrollable part of a person's psyche. You're saying black people are more savage than whites. You can't deny that what you say here is the definition of racism.

And there was a TIME for "affirmative action." That time has passed. Every public school in America is now segregated, so there is no reason WHY blacks deserve special treatment any longer.

I want to. The vast majority of schools are now segreagated. That means that blacks go to the same schools as whites do. The only exception is in areas that there are no whites. Now, take a good hard look at these schools where there are no whites. These schools are racked by crime and violence. Most of them fail basic skills tests which means that they can barely read, most don't graduate, and most have teachers that are in danger every single day because of the high violence concentration. Now compare these schools with the predominately white schools. Why can't the black community provide adequate, safe schooling for their OWN children in their OWN communities? Why do they depend on the white community to help save them from THEMSELVES? If you think THAT is because of past "wrongs," you are not near as intelligent as you THINK you are.

Graduation rates from black and white high schools are roughly the same nowadays (see Norman Yetman's "Race and Ethnicity" for up-to-date statistics about this). Furthermore, you're the one who is having difficulty seeing circumstances as part of determinance in other peoples' lives. It sure is easy to be a white man and think everyone else in the world has the same opportunity structure and living circumstances. But that's far from the reality of the situation. You lack a sociological theory of mind if you can't at least give external pressures some credit for the problems facing the black community.

The white community cannot save the black community from THEMSLEVES!

If the white community owes ANYONE, it is the Native American Indians.

Why can't we owe them both? We fúcked them both up.

 

[seanchai]

Originally posted by Stormbringer
Bottom line: whites cannot collectively suffer from institutional racism. The system has been structured to keep whites at the top of the heap.

A black person promoting "Black power" is promoting the notion of blacks - a historically oppressed group - standing up for themselves and struggling for equality.
A white person promoting "white power" is pushing for keeping whites on top.
Whoever cannot see the difference between the two positions and its reasons is brainphucked.

If you think affirmative action is "racism" against whites, you don't know what RACISM is.

(And no, I'm not black; just educated)

Exactly.

 

[doctoroxygen]

God damn seanchai is smart.

 

[StrangeButTrue]

KB... You sound like a white ultra-nationalist trying to hide it, to me.

MLK Jr. was one of the greatest men this nation has ever seen, and the immediate crop of black folks that were influenced by his speeches and dream are mostly damn fine people.

But King would be sickened at the sight of today's "black culture". It promotes violence, crime, dismisses education, and glorifies the "gangsta".

Do you think that's what his dream was about? No, he wanted blacks to simply be given the opportunity to succeed like white people. They finally got it, and what did they do? They threw it out the window by creating a culture that is intuitively counter-productive to success. Rappers like 50 cent and Jay-Z would disgust MLK.

Bill Cosby has it right when he encourages the black youth to "drop the bling and pick up the books." Then there would be no "need" (because there really isn't one) for affirmative action.

This is why I think it's so sad that he had to die.

 

[84karat]

Originally posted by doctoroxygen
God damn seanchai is smart.

WOW. doctoroxygen and seanchai agreeing!!!

I never thought I would see this day!

 

[SparkleMotion]

Originally posted by doctoroxygen
God damn seanchai is smart.

Amen!

 

[TurboOverCubicInches]

KB...you need to get over your emotional bias. you are the type of person that is holding this country back.

I have been going to school in Detroit for the past 4 years. Its my adopted home. You're ignorance is sickening. The truth is, African Americans ARE in a bad situation. And the truth is, they HAVE been mistreated. Now, I am NOT saying the average white guy like me or you is responsible. Far from it. When a black man murders a white man, I don't hold every black man responsible.

You're rants about the black people looting, shooting and murdering are ridiculous. Don't think non-blacks get crazy sometimes? Ask my friends who were at Michigan State University in 1999. They will tell you about suburban kids rioting. And they weren't in a do-or-die sitution like the people of new orleans. They were just drunk. I am not ripping on whites (I am very, very white. trust me). Rioting, or looting, is not limited to a race, as you seem to imply.

People in this country rant about responsibility. They rave about people who "overcame" the odds and made it rich. Responsibility in this country is so narrow.

Get a good job.

Go to college, do well in high school so you can get a scholarship.

Be the last one outta the office at 5:10pm.

Be loyal to your nation.

Vote.


responsibility in America, if you study it carefully, is designed to lead you to money and power.

Yet we rarely hear about responsibility to the less fortunuate. the mentally impaired. the displaced.

everytime something comes up to help the unfortunate, there is always an outcry. and its getting worse in america. and without me going into politics here, those in the know know exactly what/who i am talking about.

I see it so clearly, being in Detroit. its all laid out for us to see. yet, for a country that began due to foresight, we are quite blind.

 

[DJ_in_making]

Gives TurboOverCubicInches
a round of applause.


Fyi, the guy's from South Carolina, give him a break.

 

[bbestar]

I just don't understand why google had some martin luther king type commeration and on DEC 25 they had some made up crap that didn't make any sense.

HEY GOOGLE WHAT IF MLKD OFFENDS ME!? I"LL SUE YOU!!

im not racist just makin conversation
im asian so I don't know where im at with all this racism... lol

heh, in the movie gangs of new york.. we didn't even care.. lol
my Great grandfather was from china

 

[K B]

What blacks and white Liberals fail to realize is this: The majority of whites did NOT own slaves! Some BLACKS in the U.S. owned slaves! Slavery existed down in the South, but only about 1 in 15 whites even owned a slave! A WHITE MAN is reponsible for freeing the slaves!

The difference between this and, for instance, slavery and Jim Crow is that the latter two were institutional and your example is individual. You could, of course, hold a grudge against the family who did that, but since it was the government who instituted and perpetuated slavery, descendants have a right to be pissed and demand something from the government, DESPITE the fact that those in government now had nothing to do with it. Crimes against humanity have no statute of limitations.

So you are saying that blacks have a right to DEMAND something from the government, DESPITE the fact that those in government now had nothing to do with it? Now that makes a whole lot of sense. That whole attitude doesn't inspire any white person like me to want to "help" the black man, if all he is going to do is EXPECT me or the government to "owe" him something.

Calling black people instinctively violent IS racist. It's ascribing stereotypical beliefs of conduct to an uncontrollable part of a person's psyche. You're saying black people are more savage than whites. You can't deny that what you say here is the definition of racism.

I prefer to think of myself as a "Racialist," as I am aware of the obvious differences between the races, in general. I AM calling blacks "instinctively violent," ESPECIALLY towards white people:

http://www.racismeantiblanc.bizland.com/005/06-02.htm

If that makes me a "racist," so be it.

It sure is easy to be a white man and think everyone else in the world has the same opportunity structure and living circumstances. But that's far from the reality of the situation. You lack a sociological theory of mind if you can't at least give external pressures some credit for the problems facing the black community.

Let me give you a personal example of how blacks abuse the system: I grew up with a man named Damon. Damon was black, and he lived in my neighborhood, 6 houses down from me. Both of our mothers stayed at home, and both of our fathers were blue-collar guys. He had a youngerr brother, I had a younger brother and younger sister. When we graduated, we applied to the same college and got accepted. He got a paid scholarship and free housing. I got a small pell grant that covered about a 1/4 of tuition and NOTHING for housing. Keep in mind that I was number 12 in my graduating class, he was in the 80's somewhere. I did manage to get a loan, which meant I had to pay it back after I finished college. Damon didn't graduate, of course, but he dropped out free and clear of any debt. I graduated 4 years later, with a large to debt to pay back. Forget grade point average, forget student profile, record, and qualifications; get a black student in this college no matter what. Damon got his scholarship for no other reason than because he is BLACK and the University needed him to be "diverse." "Diversity" is a polically-correct term that descriminates against white people.

This is the kind of situation that has got to stop. Affirmative action had its place back when the majority of blacks were poor. This is NOT the case anymore. Blacks are predominately middle-class, and they can live in any middle-class community that whites live in and go to any middle-class school that whites go to.

Is that not enough? Okay, consider this seanchai: if I were to shoot and KILL you, I would recive prison time. If I were to go and KILL SAYNO, I would receive an even HARSHER sentence. WHY? Because SAYNO is BLACK and killing him would be considered a "hate crime." In other words, because SAYNO is black, his life is obviously MORE IMPORTANT than the life of some white man.

Seanchi, do you think that YOUR life is LESS VALUABLE than a black man's? Our government sure thinks so.

These are the messages that white people receive today. The Edge is correct when he says that he sees "...a younger white generation that is upset about having to pay for their forefathers errors or mistakes, whatever you want to call it." Our Liberal government is so hell-bent on "helping" the blacks, that they are PUNISHING white people for no other reason than because of their skin tone, and this goes entirely AGAINST Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s speech.

I guess now WHITE PEOPLE "have a right to be pissed and demand something from the government," RIGHT SEANCHAI???

Why can't we owe them both? We fúcked them both up.

We have bent over backwards for the blacks. We have done NOTHING for the Native American Indians. Anybody who thinks that that blacks have it worse than the Native American Indians lacks common sense.

KB... You sound like a white ultra-nationalist trying to hide it, to me.

Strangebuttrue, I am NOT trying to hide anything. Because of my pride in who I am, I am considered a racist, or Klansman, or ultra-nationalist. That is how screwed-up our country is. Blacks get a National Holiday and History month to recognize their culture. I simply say I am proud of my European culture, and I am condmened for it. Call me any name that you like, but I am PROUD of my culture, and PROUD of my Southern roots. I agree with the rest of your post, by the way.

 

[The Antichrist_Star]

Something tells me this isn't really going anywhere.

A lot of people brought up good points, and a lot of bad ones.

Racism, is racism... and (at least in all of our lifetimes) it probably isn't going anywhere.

Everyone manipulates the system at some point, and at some point everyone has to be the system's *****... that's just the way things go.

Life isn't fair... period and it never will be... so let's just all get over it together.

Closed...

AS