MGTOW is the only way to go

[corrector]

PUA, seduction, and red pill is a superior path in life to MGTOW.

They are all the same thing unless it's monk-mode and/or escortmaxxing.

 

[corrector]

Unsuccessful PUA and seduction is not good.

As it is with 90%+ of guys.

 

[corrector]

Everything is tricky in life, it took me roughly 400 approaches before I met my girlfriend but it was worth the struggle. Approaching and meeting people I learnt a huge amount in regards to human psychology and relationships Im pretty grateful for the experiences no matter how good or bad they were a long the way.

Yes MGTOW might come from reactions that certain men have had negative experiences from women and I don't doubt this for a second. But giving up at something just because its hard then can't the same excuse be used at anything that's hard?

That makes sense, I'm not officially MGTOW but it appears that I have given up with any form of online dating. You haven't used online dating to meet your girlfriend, so it doesn't matter that you don't use that. Why did you choose cold-approaching then, compared to online dating?

 

[Isildur1]

Was your girlfriend one of the least attractive chicks that you tried to mack?

no- she was on of the most but she was one of the few that I genuinely trusted. I felt living in a competitive city like London people were always coming and going so it was really hard to garner proper relationship security - alot of the time the women with leave after completion of their studies, or move countries for different job opportunities. It was hard to find a real secure relationship here and I always did better in other countries by comparison .

 

[Solomon]

First off, what actually is MGTOW? Is there a universal definition.

I associate MGTOW with men who do not get laid through conventional dating means. A lot of MGTOWs overlap with incels. Some MGTOWs pay directly for sex so they are incels since they are having sex. MGTOWs generally do not date. A guy who dates but doesn't get into LTRs/doesn't marry would have more of the player or pickup artist (PUA) label.

I disagree with @Solomon 's idea that MGTOW is dying. More and more men aren't getting laid and aren't in relationships.

Women generally do not care about the ranks of MGTOWs growing. These are men who women have already rejected from the dating market. Men do not go MGTOW unless they've been rejected a certain number of times.

Let's be clear we both agree that most men aren't getting laid
We both also agree that the rise of incels is a real thing
However, when I speak about the growth of MGTOW i'm talking about people who are aware of the label and claim it proudly
I don't see people IRL running claiming to be "MGTOW" heck most people who you would throw in that category probably have never heard of it.

Some guy might be lonely and single in Iowa but never heard about MGTOW and could give a shytless doesn't make him a mgtow it just makes him a lonely guy in IOWA

 

[Mike32ct]

The term MGTOW has largely fallen out of use.

Plenty of guys fit the term MGTOW, but they don’t call themselves MGTOW even if they are familiar with the term.

 

[corrector]

Let's be clear we both agree that most men aren't getting laid
We both also agree that the rise of incels is a real thing
However, when I speak about the growth of MGTOW i'm talking about people who are aware of the label and claim it proudly
I don't see people IRL running claiming to be "MGTOW" heck most people who you would throw in that category probably have never heard of it.

Some guy might be lonely and single in Iowa but never heard about MGTOW and could give a shytless doesn't make him a mgtow it just makes him a lonely guy in IOWA

@SW15 keeps making up his own definitions for different terms. He doesn't care what wiki incel says, or what an incel site may definte that terms as. He doesn't care what an MGTOW site or black-pill MGTOWS actually says. He believes that someone who hires a pro and gets laid is not an incel and its a valid notch count and spews all sorts of negative threads about how guys are just pvssy beggars online and 77 year old women have an easier time getting matches.

MGTOW, according to their own website, means any guy who is actually dating (ie however, more like ONS, hooking up with someone off Tinder, not too invested in any one woman/date), or if they are not attractive enough to pick-up girls like that, then they are using pros. It's a type of lifestyle like that. Monk-mode for MTGOWs are more like getting away from women altogether.

@SW15 likes to take monk-mode MGTOW and then claim that's all MGTOWs.

It's an operational definition on this board for posters who claim they love using pros but don't have the time, patience or room to put up with the games, drama or issues involved with dealing with women. This is where it's used most often on here.

IRL, I don't associate much with people and don't feel there are any true incels or MGTOWS around, even with my family or at work. You just see them on this board.

 

[Isildur1]

That makes sense, I'm not officially MGTOW but it appears that I have given up with any form of online dating. You haven't used online dating to meet your girlfriend, so it doesn't matter that you don't use that. Why did you choose cold-approaching then, compared to online dating?

The city I live in London is too competitive for me to stand out in online dating. I live in two cities London and Cannes/Nice south of France for most of the year these cities tend to have extremely high value men that I simply can't compete with online. Daygame at least I was able to get some solid leads and interactions - also note my girlfriend never used online dating so the only way I could meet here was through daygame . Cold approaching always had the least amount of flakes for me compared to night game and online game- maybe due to the respect I received from the women doing it? Of course there were plenty of flakes and bad dates on the way - especially in London were there are so many cultures you could be dating liberal women who want quick sex or conservative women that hold out and don't give you much so it can be quite a mind **** some time.

Online I only had success in Brazil but keep in mind its Brazil any western man who goes there is instantly going to have a much easier time in comparison to major western cities like Paris, London or US . Really getting laid there means very little in the grand scheme of things Im obviously never going to live there permanently due to the high crime and low opportunities literally the women are probably the best thing about Brazil .

Ive done daygame in China, Hong Kong, Macau , Bali-Indonesia, Colombia, Brazil , UAE, Saudi Arabia, Kazakstan , Ukraine , Latvia ,UK and the US id say I struggled the most in Eastern Europe given I did game in 2019 and most the pua scene there arrived between 2009-2016 so there was a big daygame rush there and the women weren't giving me much by way of conversation for the 5 days I was there. Latvia was tough too, easiest was probably China I managed to acquire 2 times as many dates on average and a much higher conversation rate into lays there compared to London . For example London I was manage a date roughly once in every 20 approaches China It was more along the lines of one in 8 . So being a foreigner made a huge difference also the economic situation that women told me about alot of men there can't afford to even take a woman out for a coffee .

 

[Scaramouche]

The city I live in London is too competitive for me to stand out in online dating. I live in two cities London and Cannes/Nice south of France for most of the year these cities tend to have extremely high value men that I simply can't compete with online. Daygame at least I was able to get some solid leads and interactions - also note my girlfriend never used online dating so the only way I could meet here was through daygame . Cold approaching always had the least amount of flakes for me compared to night game and online game- maybe due to the respect I received from the women doing it? Of course there were plenty of flakes and bad dates on the way - especially in London were there are so many cultures you could be dating liberal women who want quick sex or conservative women that hold out and don't give you much so it can be quite a mind **** some time.

Online I only had success in Brazil but keep in mind its Brazil any western man who goes there is instantly going to have a much easier time in comparison to major western cities like Paris, London or US . Really getting laid there means very little in the grand scheme of things Im obviously never going to live there permanently due to the high crime and low opportunities literally the women are probably the best thing about Brazil .

Ive done daygame in China, Hong Kong, Macau , Bali-Indonesia, Colombia, Brazil , UAE, Saudi Arabia, Kazakstan , Ukraine , Latvia ,UK and the US id say I struggled the most in Eastern Europe given I did game in 2019 and most the pua scene there arrived between 2009-2016 so there was a big daygame rush there and the women weren't giving me much by way of conversation for the 5 days I was there. Latvia was tough too, easiest was probably China I managed to acquire 2 times as many dates on average and a much higher conversation rate into lays there compared to London . For example London I was manage a date roughly once in every 20 approaches China It was more along the lines of one in 8 . So being a foreigner made a huge difference also the economic situation that women told me about alot of men there can't afford to even take a woman out for a coffee .

Hi Isildur1,
This post is one of the most interesting I have read on here....you claim you don't stand out in London...that's amazing,you are obviously at ease in both French and English Cultures,your list of Countries you have been in and played Game in (13) is quite remarkable,if you didn't walk around with shvit in your eyes,how can you help but be stimulating,attractive even romantic?...But something isn't right One in eight successful; approaches in China?No way...the last time I went to China was Nanjing 2017...Everywhere I went Women came to me...Sitting at a table outside a fast food place,first one very nice Women came and sat next to me,started talking in broken English,before long there were four or five of them,even in the Botanical Gardens,they came to me,and mate I am no Daniel Craig...So why the problems for you?

 

[Manure Spherian]

Unsuccessful PUA and seduction is not good.

“Walking through open doors” approach (Dr. Robert Glover) is the way to go.

 

[Isildur1]

Hi Isildur1,
This post is one of the most interesting I have read on here....you claim you don't stand out in London...that's amazing,you are obviously at ease in both French and English Cultures,your list of Countries you have been in and played Game in (13) is quite remarkable,if you didn't walk around with shvit in your eyes,how can you help but be stimulating,attractive even romantic?...But something isn't right One in eight successful; approaches in China?No way...the last time I went to China was Nanjing 2017...Everywhere I went Women came to me...Sitting at a table outside a fast food place,first one very nice Women came and sat next to me,started talking in broken English,before long there were four or five of them,even in the Botanical Gardens,they came to me,and mate I am no Daniel Craig...So why the problems for you?

there's 100,000 millionaires that reside in London, if you're wealthy and handsome it doesn't mean much here. There are many men with high smv here and a lot of the attractive girls get taken up quick so you need to be persistent. Ideally September and October time is optimal in London because that's when a lot of university's start their courses and you have a huge batch of fresh students coming in which provides good opportunities and again with a lot of women the timing is crucial when you're in a highly competitive place. As for France my parent's have a holiday home about an hour away from Cannes in an area called VilleFranche - I never had any success using online dating there and I've been in a relationship recently so didn't have time to test daygame out there. Still think Cannes and Monaco have some of the best quality women but I have no idea on day games premise there as I haven't done a solid number of approaches to test it out.

I had success in china but I still had to make the first move on every occasion - I like it that way and when women approach me on very rare occasions im suspicious of their intentions especially in a third world nation. Surprisingly the country where I got approached the most was Saudi Arabia - guess it could be because their women have been locked up for so long. Hong Kong was a little trickier - I think women expect a bit more there in general and its hard to do daygame in a densely populated small region because after a while you start to approach women who are friends with other women you've approached.

 

[Isildur1]

PUA, seduction, and red pill is a superior path in life to MGTOW.

always - at least a half assed pua would have some sort of options and experience compared to 90 percent of men out there. Not dating and not taking action completely rears inexperience and inexperienced men tend to be the ones most at risk from being exploited in marriage or LTRS.

 

[Scaramouche]

Hi Isildur,
Still bemused by your situation...But to change tack,you said there were 100.000 millionaires in London....Doubting Thomas that I am imagine my utter amazement when I Googled it...." London has 258,000 resident millionaires, 384 centi-millionaires, and 36 billionaires."and that's Sterling worth two of our Dollars...

 

[Isildur1]

Hi Isildur,
Still bemused by your situation...But to change tack,you said there were 100.000 millionaires in London....Doubting Thomas that I am imagine my utter amazement when I Googled it...." London has 258,000 resident millionaires, 384 centi-millionaires, and 36 billionaires."and that's Sterling worth two of our Dollars...

bemused by what exactly? everyones situation is different. In major capital cities with a high amounts of inflows and out flows of people so having daygame statistics about a specific place will vary from person to person based on their looks, the economy of the city they are in, their language skill relative to the people they are approaching ( for example if you're doing daygame in Russia and you speak Russian you will get less blow outs on average than someone who speaks poor Russian ) and more. You shouldn't rely on any dating coach or blog poster to give you information you should find out for yourself by going there and doing a base of 100-200 approaches and then forming your own conclusions.

Major cities like New York, London, Dubai , Paris to name a few will always be competitive and therefore for average joes will require a fair amount more work ethic.

 

[Isildur1]

This is kind of interesting, but also really typical behavior for humans.It's easier and more rewarding to wallow in your self pity than actually do anything to improve your own situation.
Oh, let me correct, only more rewarding thing than wallowing in your own self pity is to do it together like a tribe.

Mgtow clowns are right in a sense, that yes we do live in femicentered culture.

But you are not statistics. You are N=0.
Its true that average woman is much more entitled in this culture than average afc.
You should think it the other way. Only thing between current you and experienced PUA is practise and experience.

In this world full of AFCs the
experienced pua with good game is so much more ahead of average chick that it's not even funny.

would say I agree with this , my brothers were both successful millionaires living in London they both struggled their whole dating lives mainly because they just simply didn't approach or put themselves out there. Sometimes just consistent approaching and having a good team of wingmen around you trumps all once your value is around a 7-8/10 theres very little separating you and other guys from success other than quantity of approaching.

But its always been hard for men, its always been competitive that's just the way it is , dating will always be a free market so its up to you to adapt in order to win. Nowadays with online dating its hard to garner major difference between the top tier men which is why I encourage cold approaching as a good way to increase men's options and stop men from being at the mercy of dating apps and algorithms

 

[Isildur1]

Unsuccessful PUA and seduction is not good.

statistically though the majority of Puas will fail , heck for me I had 6 month drought before my first reasonable results, its tough adapting and being social and outgoing consistently is not for the fainthearted I know people who did well from cold approach but gave up because they couldn't take the mental strain of regular rejection - its a big hit to a lot of men's egos.

Of course people who do Pua like myself are usually the bottom rung of society because theres a reason why they were single - at school and university I was unable to compete with the men around me - pua theory helped me to adapt and succeed but it took alot of time.

 

[SW15]

statistically though the majority of Puas will fail , heck for me I had 6 month drought before my first reasonable results, its tough adapting and being social and outgoing consistently is not for the fainthearted I know people who did well from cold approach but gave up because they couldn't take the mental strain of regular rejection - its a big hit to a lot of men's egos.

Of course people who do Pua like myself are usually the bottom rung of society because theres a reason why they were single - at school and university I was unable to compete with the men around me - pua theory helped me to adapt and succeed but it took alot of time.

PUA is a tough path. Most students of pickup artistry fail. Neil Strauss was an outlier student of PUA.

Approaching strangers is often unpleasant. A man will take a lot of rejections when approaching strangers in person. When a man is swiping, he's taking his rejections virtually. Some men prefer to take their rejections behind a screen. Both rejections from a behind a screen and rejections in person hurt.

A man will take rejections if he stays the course as an average frustrated chump, beta male nice guy or as a person who begins to study seduction as a budding pickup artist.

Will a man be able to power through all the rejections? That's unknown. You're correct that the rejections are a big hit to a lot of men's egos.

Women generally do not care about the ranks of MGTOWs growing. These are men who women have already rejected from the dating market. Men do not go MGTOW unless they've been rejected a certain number of times.

MGTOW is a bad reaction to market conditions.

Men who are successful don't go MGTOW. If a man is successful with women but never commits to one, he's more of a pickup artist or player. Some might choose serial monogamy and never marry.

There's a lot of overlap between MGTOWs and incels.

Women are rejecting a larger percentage of men. If a man takes enough rejections, he will choose to exit the market. Because sexlessness is increasing, MGTOW/incel/black pill is growing fast. I think the black pill ideology is growing faster than the red pill ideology.

 

[Epicenter]

PUA is a tough path. Most students of pickup artistry fail. Neil Strauss was an outlier student of PUA.

Approaching strangers is often unpleasant. A man will take a lot of rejections when approaching strangers in person. When a man is swiping, he's taking his rejections virtually. Some men prefer to take their rejections behind a screen. Both rejections from a behind a screen and rejections in person hurt.

A man will take rejections if he stays the course as an average frustrated chump, beta male nice guy or as a person who begins to study seduction as a budding pickup artist.

Will a man be able to power through all the rejections? That's unknown. You're correct that the rejections are a big hit to a lot of men's egos.



MGTOW is a bad reaction to market conditions.

Men who are successful don't go MGTOW. If a man is successful with women but never commits to one, he's more of a pickup artist or player. Some might choose serial monogamy and never marry.

There's a lot of overlap between MGTOWs and incels.

Women are rejecting a larger percentage of men. If a man takes enough rejections, he will choose to exit the market. Because sexlessness is increasing, MGTOW/incel/black pill is growing fast. I think the black pill ideology is growing faster than the red pill ideology.

If you are a puussy addict than MGTOW is bad. If you have control over your dong than MGTOW is the best.

Most guys here on the forum are puussy addicts for them MGTOW is bad.

 

[SW15]

If you are a puussy addict than MGTOW is bad. If you have control over your dong than MGTOW is the best.

Most guys here on the forum are puussy addicts for them MGTOW is bad.

You are fortunate to be 53 and likely have a slowing sex drive. Men's sex drives do slow with age. At 40, I have noticed that I do not have the same sex drive that I had between 16-25. I had a good testosterone test recently and I am still very much into sex. It hasn't been the same in the last 3-4 years as it was then.

Even with decreases in men's testosterone levels in recent decades, most men still have enough testosterone to be thirsty for sex. Male thirst for sex has been a big part of the simping epidemic.

 

[Isildur1]

PUA is a tough path. Most students of pickup artistry fail. Neil Strauss was an outlier student of PUA.

Approaching strangers is often unpleasant. A man will take a lot of rejections when approaching strangers in person. When a man is swiping, he's taking his rejections virtually. Some men prefer to take their rejections behind a screen. Both rejections from a behind a screen and rejections in person hurt.

A man will take rejections if he stays the course as an average frustrated chump, beta male nice guy or as a person who begins to study seduction as a budding pickup artist.

Will a man be able to power through all the rejections? That's unknown. You're correct that the rejections are a big hit to a lot of men's egos.



MGTOW is a bad reaction to market conditions.

Men who are successful don't go MGTOW. If a man is successful with women but never commits to one, he's more of a pickup artist or player. Some might choose serial monogamy and never marry.

There's a lot of overlap between MGTOWs and incels.

Women are rejecting a larger percentage of men. If a man takes enough rejections, he will choose to exit the market. Because sexlessness is increasing, MGTOW/incel/black pill is growing fast. I think the black pill ideology is growing faster than the red pill ideology.

yeah the rejections hurt for the first year or two then after a while you get used to it once some positive feedback comes and helps . Of course for most men even high value men cold approach will be 80-90 percent rejection which will be filled with unpleasant dates and lmr. Heck I know of people who were initially successful at cold approach but gave up due to the repeated rejections or didn't have the mental will to carry on- dating in this modern age is a bigger willpower drain on men imo particularly in western cities.

Online game for me had far more flakes - daygame at least you're able to exert some initial demonstrations of confidence and personality for me it helped reduce a lot of flakes