Men's Rights vs Misogyny:

[KarmaSutra]

I have a core group of very open minded, very strong charactered friends with whom we share our life experiences and try to gain a better understanding of a man's place in the current socio-political environment here in The States.

One of my buddies began a discussion about how men have fewer and fewer rights due to women getting higher status positions in Government on a federal level. More judicial arms to change the climate of male and female rights. I began to agree when another of us charged that he may be a misogynist who wants things to go back to being a world run by men where women are best left barefoot in the kitchen and on thier backs. To this we had a very exciting dialogue with many expletive exchanges over Kahlua laced cappuccino's and Montecristo cigars.

I have a neutral point of view on this, which I was able to clarify during our drunken barbs. What I know is that we all make decisions on our immediate future based on the knowledge and experience we've gained in our pasts. This sometimes will lead to procrastination. With my buddy, he sees the world being taken over by empowered women. His argument is based on His Highness Hillary and his court (I say his because I'm not quite sure she sits down to pee!) but I countered that with Obama and the overwhelming response he's recieved thus far in his campaign. My buddy argued that he's still a man and that men and women will flock under him by natural order. The fact that Hillary has gotten as far as she has and is still pushing on he perceives this as a direct threat to men's rights and will set us back.

I don't buy it. The majority of men's rights proponents do have an air of authoritarianism in thier tone but I don't sense any vindictiveness or overt hatred in it. There may be something to the argument that men should learn to walk a bit slower so women can catch up but this will inadvertently cause men who are so ingrained with thier own self righteousness that they will attack and try to hinder any of this mutuality between the sexes.

There are some brothers here who behave in this manner and they know who they are. But there are other brothers who are enlightened and open to the possibility of change. As I said, I'm more neutral on this issue and I like where the dialogue can lead so please keep the conversation between The Round Table and I going . . .

 

[Last Man Standing]

This has nothing to do with "rights"!! When you say enlightened brothers, I presume that you are referring to me. Forget the hillary vs. obama political dialectic - they have the same agenda - so that is a red herring and a diversion to the real issue! The real issue is the role of the masculine and the feminine - and their natural order - all else is peripheral and influenced by social/cultural dynamics as propagated by those who control the messages in the mass media! For your answer, look at and study the nature of the male and female - of which I expounded upon many times here!!

 

[Last Man Standing]

"Misogony" is hor matrix shyt!! No such thing as "misogony" - do you hate your daughter? Mother? Wife? Stop using that feminist contrived terminology!!! Wake up - PLEASE!!!!!

 

[lookyoung]

I don't feel that woman being in government has anything to do with mens rights. The direction of this country has been headed downward over the last 8 years. I would embrace a woman president. Nothing can be worse of what we have had over the last 8 years.

I do believe that men have less rights than they had before. This is because of the woman getting out of her womanly role as a house wife. I could be a fvcking billionaire and a girl would not be happy staying at home and taking care of the kids. They all want to work. And if they don't than they want to go to the spa and spend your money. Go to the health club and get there hair done. They want to be hors.

Watch old shows like sanford and son. Archie bunker. As funny as it sounds these guys were alpha males. This is what is was like to be a man back in the 50's. I feel that the 90's was the worst era ever. That is when the world changed 100 years.

You watch these shows now these guys act like fvcking homosexuals. Even eddie murphy delirious and raw would not fly in todays age. We are in feminist times.

Back in the day there was no AFC. Men pursued woman. If you talked to older people you will realize that the woman did not like them at first. But the man kept pursuing her. Buying her flowers, calling her all the time. That was his job and nature as a man.

If you do that in todays age the woman will look at you like an AFC. Back in those days there was no AFC. Being a man was embracing your masculinity.

Believe me when I tell you this. If there were more masculing men around woman would be alot better.

 

[Victory Unlimited]

Karma,

Usually, the instances where the line between Men's Rights blurs into the area of perceived Misgoyny occur when one side feels threatened in some way by the spotlight of importance being cast on the other----no matter the reason.

In some ways, it's much like that negatively selfishness reaction that some people may have whenever they hear about the "good fortunes" of another.

Example:

When a friend of yours tells you that he just won the mutherfukkin' LOTTERY.

Immediately, MANY of us will be bombarded by a contrast of emotions. On the one hand, we're genuinely happy as hell for our friend. But on the other hand, the pendulum swings to the other side, and the thought may cross our mind------"What about ME???? I wished I COULD have won that mutherfukkin' lottery!"

And the thing IS, it's not that these reactions themselves cause the sometimes, LASTING problem of feeling disenfranchised, jealous, or slighted-----but instead, it is our WILLINGNESS to allow ourselves to "stay" in this negatively, and unproductively selfish mode of thinking.

Now, I qualified "selfishness" in the way that I just did because I do indeed REALIZE that there is a form of selfishness that can be very positive, and productive-----but THIS ain't it. :nono:

How this relates to Men's Rights vs. Misogyny is in the way this example illustrates a sort of scarcity mentality that may exist in these cases. As long as we (men AND WOMEN) believe that there is only SO MUCH fairness, respect, success, or forms of POWER to go around------we will always fight with each other to make sure that we sure as hell KEEP "ours".

And therein lies a serious problem.

Somewhere along the way, this metaphorical war between the sexes became REAL, in the minds of many. Somewhere along the way, men and women started seeing each other's ENTIRE gender as "the enemy", as opposed to just certain "factions" WITHIN that gender (no matter how LARGE those factions may appear at times...).

There was a time when there was a sense of camraderie between the sexes that existed even before they would unify within the bonds of a legalized "marriage". But those days seem long ago in this "ME, MYSELF, and I"----Western culture.

Both genders seem to have ingrained within them now, this 24-hours a day, "reality show" type mentality where LIFE is looked at as mostly just a COMPETITION-----EVEN against the very gender that they were originally designed to "join, connect, and re-produce" with.

The IRONY of this is inescapable.


But hopefully, there will be...


Peace...ONE day.

 

[joekerr31]

the law isn't gender agnostic yet, but its getting there. even race doesn't matter much any more.

where the REAL discrepancy lies is not in gender, but rather income. the law treats rich people completely different than poor people.

i mean, let me get this straight, the guy who is most likely going to be president has admitted that he committed an act for which others who have committed hte same act are currently sitting in prison for years (fyi, talking about using cocain).

i mean, is this for real? how can you have someone run for president who used cocain and never did jail time who at the SAME time espouses that people using drugs should be imprisoned.

the truth is, if you are at the top of the food chain (rich, famous, powerful) a different set of rules apply.

 

[ketostix]

the law isn't gender agnostic yet, but its getting there. even race doesn't matter much any more.

where the REAL discrepancy lies is not in gender, but rather income. the law treats rich people completely different than poor people.

i mean, let me get this straight, the guy who is most likely going to be president has admitted that he committed an act for which others who have committed hte same act are currently sitting in prison for years (fyi, talking about using cocain).

i mean, is this for real? how can you have someone run for president who used cocain and never did jail time who at the SAME time espouses that people using drugs should be imprisoned.

the truth is, if you are at the top of the food chain (rich, famous, powerful) a different set of rules apply.

That's an example of Status! Seriously, you're right. No police department in the USA would ever consider hiring a person who's ever admitted to using hard drugs, yet Obama is having no problems vying for the top law enforcement job. Total hypocrisy.

Karma, I agree with your friend. The governemnt gives preferential treatment to women in hiring. Women have no place in leadership roles since as I believe they have no sense of fairness and male's rights. This is a rare case where LMS is right-there's no mysogony, that's just a shaming tool. It's about the natural order of things.

 

[Last Man Standing]

This is a rare case where LMS is right-there's no mysogony, that's just a shaming tool. It's about the natural order of things.

Look. I'm tired of your indirect insults - if you darwin monkeys want to challenge the truth outright then just state so!! But your arguments are so weak that you dare not challenge me on any of your false premises! Stand up and be a man, errrr. monkey!!! Start a thread "Man vs. Monkey" and see truth arguments destroy your false beliefs and agenda!!!

 

[ketostix]

Look. I'm tired of your indirect insults - if you darwin monkeys want to challenge the truth outright then just state so!! But your arguments are so weak that you dare not challenge me on any of your false premises! Stand up and be a man, errrr. monkey!!! Start a thread "Man vs. Monkey" and see truth arguments destroy your false beliefs and agenda!!!

What indirect insults? I think you take the grand conspiracy stuff too far and put too much emphasis on girls being virgin or nonvirgin. But other than that I agree with you regarding the natural order of things, so how am I the one insulting you?

 

[Last Man Standing]

What indirect insults? I think you take the grand conspiracy stuff too far and put too much emphasis on girls being virgin or nonvirgin. But other than that I agree with you regarding the natural order of things, so how am I the one insulting you?

Why do certain people here use the word "rare" when quoting me? Yet I'm always right!! I don't care if you, or others, don't like the word "hor" - it is what is and not my doing - so blame her for her actions and not my description of a thing as it is!! Do you know the definition of a conspiracy? I suggest you look at the definition and then get back to me to show me where I'm in error! Show me the error in my thinking so that I may correct my thinking, if it is in error! You can pm on this and not do it here.

 

[romangod]

I don't buy it. The majority of men's rights proponents do have an air of authoritarianism in thier tone but I don't sense any vindictiveness or overt hatred in it. There may be something to the argument that men should learn to walk a bit slower so women can catch up but this will inadvertently cause men who are so ingrained with thier own self righteousness that they will attack and try to hinder any of this mutuality between the sexes.

There are some brothers here who behave in this manner and they know who they are. But there are other brothers who are enlightened and open to the possibility of change. As I said, I'm more neutral on this issue and I like where the dialogue can lead so please keep the conversation between The Round Table and I going . . .

The way I see it is that the majority of men's rights proponents are only seeking fairness in the laws which are tilted against them. Many of them are divorced fathers seeking a balance in the laws which are totally pro-women. The pendulum of fairness needs to swing back to the middle where a man can at least gets a fair shake. Many of the bitter, defenseless men turn into mysogynists as a way of expressing their impotence before the courts and society's indifference to their plight.

Men did walk a little slower to let women catch up and ended up being passed over without a second thought to how it would affect them. The result is that men and women are in a gender struggle which benefits nobody.

 

[joekerr31]

women have manipulated the law in their favor with the same tactic they use to manipulate men - by playing the victim.

the law protects them more than men because it sees them as being weaker than men and hence need more protection.

 

[Europe31]

Tax

women have manipulated the law in their favor with the same tactic they use to manipulate men - by playing the victim.
QUOTE]

Exactly. And the newest thing is the 'man tax', or so-called "gender-based taxation": men paying considerably higher taxes than women in the same position. It may well happen in Spain very soon:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1968964/posts
(The original proposal: http://www.voxeu.eu/index.php?q=node/859)

Just out of curiosity (from a regular lurker from Europe):
What do you guys think of such a 'man tax'?
Would you think there is any chance of this happening in the US or Canada?
Would you be prepared to take action if that should happen?

Regards.

 

[mrRuckus]

Why is it considered misogyny to think women belong in the kitchen? I mean, i like warm cupcakes and i'll love her for baking them.

This reminds me of the term homophobia. Yeahhh that's why some people hate gays.. because they're AFRAID of them... and not just afraid, but a persistent, irrational fear! Give me a break.

 

[wayword]

Equal Rights Vs Equal Responsiblities

Feminists want the same RIGHTS as men, but not the same RESPONSIBLITIES.

And therein lies the problem...

If you equalize one, but not the other (as has been done), then you create a great INEQUALITY.

Things were naturally different before - but more fair. Now, things are getting more similar - yet more unfair.


Years after 2nd-wave feminism, men are still held responsible for paying the tab, serving as cannon-fodder and doing all the dirty work in our society. And feminists have rarely even fought for the optional CHOICE to do any of those, much less the obligated DUTY to perform them.

If things were fair, your rights should NOT exceed your responsibilities - and you should NOT be able to increase one WITHOUT the other.

So, the next time some feminist beeyotch mouths off about just "fighting for equal rights," ask her why she isn't also "fighting for equal responsibilities?"

 

[MacAvoy]

This is my attitude on the whole thing ...WHO CARES?



Again like its been mentioned in time and time before on this site and most recently in the forbidden fruit thread by Victory Unlimited

How we perceive OURSELVES is the most important thing, but having said that----In the eyes of other's, our status is often measured against what that particular person in that particular situation may "value".

then LMS elaborated:

Absolutely VU!! We are responsible for our own souls and our own actions - we must internalize our behavior and must decide what is the right thing to do! We are given genetic instruction, by our creator, to determine this - and it is called our conscious!! Our value is NOT determined by others, but rather through how we align ourselves with this genetic truth within us!!!

but my point as it relates to this, is what difference does it make if society is changing to give women more rights? At the end of the day, its not going to have an impact on me, why you ask, because I won't let it. I control my life, my destiny, what I do, and no one can take that away from me. Not feminism, not the government, nobody.

So what if women get more rights and more power, that doesn't mean your given less. Its up to you to take what you want. Like Scarface says, I want whats coming to me, the world and everything in it.. However to get whats coming to you, you have to go out and get it, you can't sit back and wait for it to be handed to you on a silver platter.

 

[Europe31]

women have manipulated the law in their favor with the same tactic they use to manipulate men - by playing the victim.

Exactly. And the newest thing is the 'man tax', or so-called "gender-based taxation": men paying considerably higher taxes than women in the same position. It may well happen in Spain very soon:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1968964/posts
(The original proposal: http://www.voxeu.eu/index.php?q=node/859)

Just out of curiosity (from a regular lurker from Europe):
What do you guys think of such a 'man tax'?
Would you think there is any chance of this happening in the US or Canada?
Would you be prepared to take action if that should happen?

Regards.

 

[KarmaSutra]

As I stated in my original post, I'm neutral on the whole thing and this thread has turned into quite the sparring of ideologies and impressions.

This was my goal. Please continue . . .

 

[bigjohnson]

Good summary/discussion but it's all been said before. When women start being equally represented in high risk occupations like logging I'll start to take their complaints about equal pay and other BS seriously. Until then not so much.

 

[romangod]

but my point as it relates to this, is what difference does it make if society is changing to give women more rights? At the end of the day, its not going to have an impact on me, why you ask, because I won't let it. I control my life, my destiny, what I do, and no one can take that away from me. Not feminism, not the government, nobody.

So, I guess you never plan on getting married or in a legal position with a woman. If you do, then your post is naive. To think that current laws and trends won't have an impact on you because you won't let them is bravado at best and ignorance at the worst. Once you get involved in today's matrix you no longer control your own destiny. It's designed to do everything possible to sap the life out of you with one honest and sincere mistake. Navigating it is not for the weak and naive.