Martial Arts

[grr]

Grappling and wresleting isn't any good for street fighting, you fall down you get stompt on.

I think its more complicated than that. We can't count on the fact a random assailant will have buddies. We can't count on them never having fought before. We can't count on them being stronger, heavier, or taller than you.

But, there are some truths we can count on.

The smarter fighter usually starts out countering to get a sense of what his opponent might throw at him. If he does attack, he attacks with a low-risk offensive move, it might even be useless, to egg the guy into going on the offense.

If you want to learn how to counter striking, then become a striker. If you want to learn to counter submissions then become a grappler.

Fighting multiple opponents simultaneously is retarded any way you look at it. If you were truly worried for your safety you'll try running away, first.

 

[MuayThai]

I think its more complicated than that. We can't count on the fact a random assailant will have buddies. We can't count on them never having fought before. We can't count on them being stronger, heavier, or taller than you.

The smarter fighter usually starts out countering to get a sense of what his opponent might throw at him. If he does attack, he attacks with a low-risk offensive move, it might even be useless, to egg the guy into going on the offense.

If you want to learn how to counter striking, then become a striker. If you want to learn to counter submissions then become a grappler.

LoL I guess you've never been in a fight before.

This aint no three round, three minuet bull****. A street fight is over in an average of SEVEN yes seven seconds, you excange one or two blows and thats it, you or him gets knocked out. Theres no dodging and weaving or boxing, barley any thinking about what your doing at all.

Wrestling is a Sport not a martial art. There is a large difference.

You can't count on anything. All you need to know is you can move on your feet quick and knock out a guy in one punch, otherwise you don't really need skills or tactics

 

[grr]

Until

you

meet

someone

who

can

fight,

too.

I broke it down so you could figure it out. I get your point, most street fights are with untrained idiots, but some aren't, and if they aren't, then you better not try to go for the one-hit because I guarantee you'll miss and they'll take you down. The same tactic applies to fighting massive guys 6'7" 300 lbs. You don't try to one hit those dudes, they know they can pretty much outlast any hit you send at them. You try to get THEM to hit you, then you use their power against them.

I've been in fifteen street fights I can remember. Probably more. Seven of them were in one day. I haven't lost so far. I hate when people attack your credibility on the Internet. I'm untrained in the martial arts but I probably have more experience street fighting than you! In any case, don't reply a counter argument back, lets just let the other ss readers decide who they believe. My word vs yours. Nothing we can say from here will convince them either way, except maybe a duel.

If they walk into your punch, great, but don't be the aggressor just because you know a useful martial art. Sure, if he's obviously unfit to fight you might decide to end it early, but how often do you streetfight with a complete moron?

I have lots of friends who did high school wrestling. That gives them a few skills to fight with. Even football can give someone a good tackle. You can't think you know more than a person, or exceed them physically in an area. You have to feel them out a bit, first. That's my advice on the subject.

Wrestling is a Sport not a martial art. There is a large difference.

You can't count on anything. All you need to know is you can move on your feet quick and knock out a guy in one punch, otherwise you don't really need skills or tactics

Tell that to the 6'4" guy I almost killed because my headlock was crushing his throat. Although, it was kind of hard for him to be quick on his feet and have a chance of knocking me out (let alone reach my face) from that position.

 

[muttley]

I do BJJ, if anyone wants to get it on here id be more than happy to break your arm

 

[MuayThai]

I broke it down so you could figure it out.

I get your point, most street fights are with untrained idiots, but some aren't, and if they aren't, then you better not try to go for the one-hit because I guarantee you'll miss and they'll take you down.

Lol you americans really do think UFC is real fighting.

You obviously didn't get my point. I'm not on about "untrained idiots". I'm on about everyone, nothing will prepare you for fighting on the street, Nothing, bare knuckle with some body you don't know and no rules at all. Black belts and pro fighter get knocked out by ballsy bastards all the time.

There is no calculation before hand, you size them up, THATS IT! There's no countering, weaving and doging. No thinking about positions and tactics, no arm bars and joint locks. You can maybe duck one blow and swing back or something similar IF your good, then it's all one messy brawl.
And I have never ever been in, seen or heard of a fight where anyone uses bars or locks ect, I really don't see the point for street defence.

The same tactic applies to fighting massive guys 6'7" 300 lbs. You don't try to one hit those dudes, they know they can pretty much outlast any hit you send at them. You try to get THEM to hit you, then you use their power against them.

you'd fight someone 6'7 and 300 pounds! unless they where mortally obease I wouldn't. And you'd get them to hit you!?! thats crazy.
And how do you use someones power against them? Have you got significant jujitsu or judo training to counter a punch from someone like that? in a street fight!?!

I've been in fifteen street fights I can remember. Probably more. Seven of them were in one day.

You are insane. I havn't been in seven street fights in my life. Who where you fighting, five year olds?

Tell that to the 6'4" guy I almost killed because my headlock was crushing his throat. Although, it was kind of hard for him to be quick on his feet and have a chance of knocking me out (let alone reach my face) from that position.

So i've got people in headlocks, my brother had fights when he was 13 where he got boys in headlocks, they really the best way to win a street fight. And he obviously wasn't quick enough with his fists in the first place.


Your treating fighting like it's some sort of science, lol @ americans. I hate hate hate it when peole say; "oh yeah i'd just do x and y if he done that" because most people wouldn't, if you got put in the ring or on the street with someone all you have are your instincts. Ask any professional fighter they'll say when you get in the ring, if you haven't done some counter or position change or whatever 500 times before hand, in training, it won't even cross your mind when someones hitting you.

THAT is my point.

And if your untrained, you wouldn't last 20 seconds in a ring with someone who is.
It's like one of those dance machines, you can tthink about timing and all that, but when it's going full pace, you better know what to do, or you don't stand a chance.

 

[DJ4Life]

False, Muay Thai is almost a purely offensive martial arts used by soldiers in ancient Southeast Asia. You can still knock someone down with it against a common street bum, but if against stronger fighters Muay Thai is nowhere as effective as other defensive arts.

And contrary to what most people think, Muay Thai isn't just for anybody, it is one of the more physical intense martial arts out there that emphasize on body trainning more than any other style. If you can't train 4 times a week 2 hours each session you won't go very far with it. Sure you can punch a bit harder, kick slightly faster, but it's not Muay Thai.

You asked for self defense, Wing Chun is the ideal choice. It's one of the most ancient martial arts out there that is actually designed for self defense and take out enemies that are physically larger/stronger. Bruce Lee's first formal, organized bout came as a teenager at his high school in Hong Kong. He was to fight a young British boxer, a reigning two-time boxing champion. Bruce knocked his opponent out with repeated strikes, using the Wing Chun technique Jik Chung Chuy. Jet Li, another world famous Kung Fu champion is also a master of Wing Chun. In fact Wing Chun is considered the fundamental of all Chinese martial arts, students are required to have basic knowledge of it before advancing to other styles.

 

[DJ4Life]

Wing Chun is quite popular in North America now, first because of Bruce Lee, now Jackie Chan and Jet Li. You can easily find a school and start getting lessons.

Wing Chun doesn't neccessarily make you physically stronger, but it is a very practical Martial Arts that teach you how to defend yourself against a 7'5 250lbs wrestler and actually kick his ass. It principles in using the least ammount of force of your own to counter a stronger opposing force, or using the opponent's own force against himself. Wing Chun techniques emphasise practicality and effectiveness over strength or aesthetics. Most strikes are intentionally fatal and target vulnerable areas of the body such as the throat, groin, eyes and stomach. Perfect to end a street fight fast and quick.

With Muay Thai, Judo, or other grappling submission styles, you can't do that. And prepare to get your own ass handed back to you because you are not physically bigger/stronger than your opponent.

 

[Phoenix_of_the_ashes]

You can still knock someone down with it against a common street bum, but if against stronger fighters Muay Thai is nowhere as effective as other defensive arts.

Wrong, a hard punch will knock anybody out, so will a hard knee.

Also dont forget that MT is not a pure striking style, it places importance on the clinch which is brutal to people who dont know it. You think we unlearn or forget that kicking a guy in the nuts ****s them up?

MT doesnt target vulnerable points? Liver shot anybody? Kidney? Kick to the neck?

Bull****, pure bull****.

With Muay Thai, Judo, or other grappling submission styles, you can't do that.

And why the heck not? You think I can throw a closed fist jab but I cant do the same thing with open fingers to some guys eye?

 

[MrS]

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and boxing.
BJJ for takedowns/locks/general floor fighting if needed.
Boxing for being able to take and give a punch.

 

[Vampire]

There is a lot of horrible information being spread here.

First of all, there is more to wrestling and BJJ than just takedowns and submissions, respectively. A good wrestler can avoid being taken to the ground. Pretty useful in this common perception that every streetfight is 5-on-1.

Similarly, a good BJJ practicioner knows how to find the best position on the ground, whether it be to deliver strikes or to protect oneself from harm. Just because you know BJJ does not mean that you will pull guard and attempt an omoplata when you're being attacked in this 5-on-1 situation. It means that you can at least avoid being mounted by one guy if it unfortunately goes to the ground... it means that you'll know how to not get guillotine choke... and so on.

Muay Thai is great, yes. I train Muay Thai and BJJ... and I wrestled in college as well. I train with many champion fighters and I can toss many of them to the ground quite easily from the clinch. It really bothers me when somebody says wrestling and BJJ suck for fighting, because they're essentially reducing those arts to their lowest common denominator. That's just like saying Muay Thai is all leg kicks, and then going on to say that "there's a lot more to a fight than just kicking a leg."

I do have to say that the average street fight favors the trained striker. But a decent wrestler would own just some normal guy. In college, our team was at odds with a few fraternities... we would completely destroy them despite being outnumbered at least 2-1. That isn't to say we didn't get lumped up, but we weren't the ones lying on the ground unable to move when all was said and done.

 

[grr]

MT, exactly what country are you from so I can return the favor and make assumptions about your point of view just by your environment.

There is no calculation before hand, you size them up, THATS IT!

Am I supposed to understand the distinction?

You are insane. I havn't been in seven street fights in my life. Who where you fighting, five year olds?

I played football with some 18-19 year old guys I never played with before, at the time I was 18. I had words with one of them because he kept tripping me up. I fought him with his friends cheering him on. Beat him, then his other friends tried taking me on one-by-one. Good group of guys. Not the best fighters, though, rofl. Some untrained people's "stances" when they fight are so funny.

 

[youknowtherest]

The important thing is having the experience in a combat-related sport that inflicts pain.

I've been boxing since high school, and did a couple of amateur bouts when I got out of college -- I had a perfect record: 0-3 . BUT. . . . I got sucker-punched last year outside a club. I got my chin down and took it on the forehead, and immediately nailed him with a shovelhook to the solar plexus as he was winding up for another swing. It left him on his knees gasping like a fish and his buddies saw that not only did I not go down with a brutal punch, but I dropped their pal with one hit a splitsecond later. None of them came at me -- nobody wanted to get hit after seeing that. I had a purple goose egg on my forehead for about two weeks, and went to the hospital to get checked for a concussion, but being able to get hit hard and not freak out about it saved my @ss. I've spent enough time on the canvas -- both on my feet and on my back -- to be able to take and give a crippling punch.

My point being, get in there and get your hands dirty. F--k Walker Texas Ranger. Learn to absorb and deliver pain. And then stay out of trouble. If you go looking for a fight you deserve what you get.

 

[MuayThai]

MT, exactly what country are you from so I can return the favor and make assumptions about your point of view just by your environment.

South of england. We don't only drink tea with crumpets, it's rough round parts.

Am I supposed to understand the distinction?

You wha?!?

I played football with some 18-19 year old guys I never played with before, at the time I was 18. I had words with one of them because he kept tripping me up. I fought him with his friends cheering him on. Beat him, then his other friends tried taking me on one-by-one. Good group of guys. Not the best fighters, though, rofl. Some untrained people's "stances" when they fight are so funny.

Seven guys took you on one by one after you beat there friend up? Strange culture man.

This is what I don't get about americans. With all the arraged fights, i've heard about. It's sick and barbaric. You'd never see that in england, peopl just smash each other up on the random lol :rockon: :woo: :trouble:

gtg tea and crumpets are ready.

 

[DJ4Life]

if you want to train for self defense, muay thai isn't your best choice

 

[youknowtherest]

if you want to train for self defense, muay thai isn't your best choice

In my limited experience -- see above -- anything that inflicts pain and that teaches you to handle pain is a good choice. Muay Thai seems practical. So does Greco-Roman wrestling. Oozing Monkey-Penis Kung Fu, or any of these "soft" martial arts that don't train full-contact, seem like a waste to me. As a sport, great. For spiritual growth? Outstanding. Do it up. But if you want to survive an attack, you need to train to hit and be hit.

I've seen grown men -- strong men -- break down crying the first time someone connects with a solid punch. Especially if that punch comes from a heavyweight. Your brain is wired to tell you to get the hell out of there when someone lands a punch that hard to your head, or knocks the wind out of you. Crazy $#!+ happens to your body. You go into shock. You throw up. You can't stop shaking. You cry. I've seen it all. I've inflicted it.

Krav Maga is great, and I've heard about kung fu techniques for crippling and bone-breaking and eye-gouging and penis-yanking. Great. When are you going to practice that? I don't know anyone who will volunteer to let you gouge out their eye. When will you know if you can actually do it under combat stress?

Boxing HURTS. Muay Thai HURTS. Wrestling HURTS. After a few years, you become acclimated: the physical and emotional effect of someone actively trying to hurt you is immense. It's something you can't get from watching Jackie Chan movies or training in Tai Chi or even in any martial art that doesn't allow full contact.

I speak from experience here, though: stepping through the ropes in an amateur boxing match, against someone who doesn't like you and wants to knock you the f--k out, is a sobering experience in and of itself. The first ten seconds of my first amateur fight was the scariest thing I've ever done. Conditioning yourself to stay focused and attack when your adrenaline is going nuts, and to keep your wits about you when someone lands a full-force punch -- or a kick, or a baseball bat -- is very important in a fight. And the conditioning you get from full-contact competition -- to keep fighting with cracked ribs, or dizziness, or whiplash, or blood running into your eye -- can't be taught any other way, and it keeps your @ss alive.

You might think you're tough, you might think you've got all your moves down. But five seconds into a scrap, when the view through one eye looks like a 4th of July sparkler, and you start gagging on your own blood, your view of yourself and your place in the world changes. And it will freak your @ss right out, and the guy you're fighting will finish you. I would think that any full-contact martial art -- and there aren't many that are legal in the U.S. -- would be critical. At least to supplement whatever else you decide to study.

But maybe I'm wrong. What would you recommend?

 

[jjasc]

Great post. Right on. I'm tired of the jokers who keep spouting Muay Thai won’t teach you how to defeat bigger opponents, but "kungfu X, Jeet **** Dodo. etc..." will.
Utter bull****.
Give me a break. Jeet Kwan Do is another “soft” kungfu style. Sure, Bruce Lee mighta cooked it up in one of his opium induced trances, but that doesn’t make it any better than the other kung fu styles.

Muay Thai is a full contact sport. You fight full contact. Kung Fu, Jeet **** Dodo spout all sort s of nonsense about fighting, but when push come to shove, you don’t end up fighting. Twirling your hands in circles while screaming doesn’t train you how to handle yourself in a real fight.

Contact fighting does.

Not the tag “patty cake” sparring engendered by karate, TKD, and various forms of kungfu. I’m talking about the kind of fighting where you endure a shin kick to the thigh, knees to the face, and kiss someone’s elbow. The kind of contact where you can bleed. THAT is what toughens you up. THAT is what teaches you how to react in a fight.

You learn how to take a hit. You learn how to deal with pain. You learn how to handle the “rush” that comes from a real fight. So when you do fight, it’s no big deal; another walk in the park. Add to that the advantages of some serious cardiovascular conditioning and simple but brutally effective moves, you are in good shape to win a real fight.
Personally, I advocate MMA over Muay Thai because you learn ground fighting and ditch the boxing gloves. MMA cage fighting is probably the closest sport fighting gets to “real” fights.

I’m sick of the bull**** spouted by karate and kungfu disciples who think they can smash holes in concrete walls with their fists and drop heavyweights with finger pokes to the neck .

SO you think you can perform that “magic” death touch in a fight? Try it. The only death touch will be your head slamming into the pavement. There’s a reason why kungfu/jeet **** do/ wing *** do and other eastern styles are not present in MMA fights. Simple: they don’t work!! Try that against an MMA or Muay Thai fighter and you’re going to endure an ass kicking.
The key is to find a martial art that actually participates in contact matches. Mauy Thai, boxing, and MMA all emphasize this. Invariably, this quickly teaches you what is bull**** and what is not. Sure the eye-gouging, heart-stopping, throat-ripping super move might look cool. But how do you know it works. And performing such super moves against a fully resisting opponent is more difficult than you think. I’m not dissing the moral/spiritual/health benefits kungfu/karate provide. But they do not teach you how to defend yourself.

I love how these self-proclaimed grand masters, sifus, or whatever self-styled verbal pageantry the kungfu/karate instructors dress themselves up in claim they know 101 ways to kill a person without ever having been in a single fight.

Anyone see the incongruity here?

Food for thought.

 

[Kerpal]

I think BJJ could be quite useful for a "real" self defense situation. 99% of potential attackers have no idea what to do if they get caught in a triangle, omo plata, etc.

 

[MuayThai]

Oozing Monkey-Penis Kung Fu, or any of these "soft" martial arts that don't train full-contact, seem like a waste to me. As a sport, great. For spiritual growth? Outstanding. Do it up. But if you want to survive an attack, you need to train to hit and be hit.

After a few years, you become acclimated: the physical and emotional effect of someone actively trying to hurt you is immense. It's something you can't get from watching Jackie Chan movies or training in Tai Chi or even in any martial art that doesn't allow full contact.

I speak from experience here, though: stepping through the ropes in an amateur boxing match, against someone who doesn't like you and wants to knock you the f--k out, is a sobering experience in and of itself. The first ten seconds of my first amateur fight was the scariest thing I've ever done. Conditioning yourself to stay focused and attack when your adrenaline is going nuts, and to keep your wits about you when someone lands a full-force punch -- or a kick, or a baseball bat -- is very important in a fight. And the conditioning you get from full-contact competition -- to keep fighting with cracked ribs, or dizziness, or whiplash, or blood running into your eye -- can't be taught any other way, and it keeps your @ss alive.

This is probley the best piece of written experiance that has ever been written on martial arts in this forum.

You might think you're tough, you might think you've got all your moves down. But five seconds into a scrap, when the view through one eye looks like a 4th of July sparkler, and you start gagging on your own blood, your view of yourself and your place in the world changes

There’s a reason why kungfu/jeet **** do/ wing *** do and other eastern styles are not present in MMA fights. Simple: they don’t work!! Try that against an MMA or Muay Thai fighter and you’re going to endure an ass kicking.

Maybe we should sticky this thread. I so tired of the debating with nerds from the internet.
If you don't do it, you honestly have no clue about it.

Personally, I advocate MMA over Muay Thai because you learn ground fighting and ditch the boxing gloves. MMA cage fighting is probably the closest sport fighting gets to “real” fights.

This I think shoud be the only thing we should be debating. I personnally have never seen anyone use jujitsu ect in a street fight so I don't really see the use. But hell if you know both then thats even better.

 

[Phyzzle]

For your elucidation, Kung Fu just means "a style of martial art invented somewhere in China."

It literally means "hard work." You can't generalize Kung Fu as being all superstitious death strikes.

Originally Posted by jjasc
There’s a reason why kungfu/jeet **** do/ wing *** do and other eastern styles are not present in MMA fights. Simple: they don’t work!!

I'm not sure what you mean by "wing *** do", but Wing Chun is a street effecting style of Kung Fu. Our sifu had us sparring with gloves and pads 40 minutes into our 1st class. Superfically, it looks like a mix between Muay Thai and Jack Dempsey's boxing style, with low kicks and central punches.

It's what Bruce Lee started to learn as a child before going all goofy with spinning high kicks.

UFC champ Maurice Smith was a Wing Chun guy, but he studied everything, pro-kickboxer, wrestling, even had a black belt in TKD. You could see him use the exchange and T-step footwork from Wing Chun to make it difficult to take him down. (Though he did get taken down sometimes).

Thing is, most Wing Chun Sifus are too proud of their style's awesomeness to learn any groundfighting. Unfortunate.

As for the Patty-cake "sparring", yeah, they do that to ease you into full-contact. People have a tendency to go into a full-contact fight, completely forget their martial artsm and flail wildly at the other guy's head.

So anyways, Wing Chun can be another option in the phone bookl for full-contact effective martial arts.

 

[grr]

So anyways, Wing Chun can be another option in the phone book for full-contact effective martial arts.

No! Most Wing Chun dojos in USA are McDojos, sadly! Most Wing Chun kwoons rarely, if ever, do padwork or full contact fighting.

Thing is, most Wing Chun Sifus are too proud of their style's awesomeness to learn any groundfighting. Unfortunate.

Odd, my Sifu knew jiu-jits, but said he gave it up as he got older.

And, other persons have pointed out that Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/whatever is a highly specialized art for mastering "bridging" or the times when you and your opponents arms are outstretched in reaching distance. So, you're limited to deflecting arms and trapping for Wing Chun.

But, other fundamentals like ground fighting or properly performed offensive striking take precedence to those concepts.

HOWEVER, I will say Wing Chun is excellent as a primer for martial arts systems.

Also, you can apply things you learn from Wing Chun in Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu and in Muay Thai kickboxing for example. e.g. Wing Chun's tan sau block works anywhere as it mimics the movement one does when opening doors, an exercise most people are familiar with. While, BJJ doesn't teach you jack about kickboxing and vice versa.

Wing Chun really suffers from being underrated and overrated at the same time because it can complement any martial art, yet never really stand on its own vs any of the more effective martial arts.