Making it In Today's World: Is it justifiable?

[WORKEROUTER]

One thing me and my girlfriend consider differently is the idea of making money. She disdains the idea of corporations and such because they "eat up small business." She also seems to disdain the fact of how one person can own an entire company, not really do much work but soak up the majority of the profit, and let the thousands of workers toil for minimal wage.

Of course, these ideas are totally contrary to the ideas set forth in "Rich Dad, Poor Dad." The author basically disdains all the masses who whine and b*tch about the "system" and how it's unfair.

I stand along the lines of Robert Kiyoski (the author). Unlike my gf, I do not believe that corporations are bad or that large business men are evil and treat people unfairly. One day, I plan to become the "rich man" that Mr. Kiyoski describes by learning as much as a I can about finances and investments, and doing my best to "make money work me for me." I do not plan to whine and b*tch about the system and my bosses, as I toil away day after day like the middle-class robot for a menial wage, and have to beg for an annual raise.

But the reason for this is that I am between the spectrum of being idealistic and realistic. Do I believe our capitalist market system is the most ideal? I am not sure; I am still thinking about that. However, I DO know that I am born into it, and that I should not try to ignore that fact. And because of that, I will prosper as best I can in it.

So what are your thoughts about this? What do you think about the philosphical, ideal aspects of our economy and becoming wealthy, versus idealistic views?

 

[LowPlainsDrifter]

I used to be a diehard capitalist until...

I started working for companies, and saw the greed, mismanagement, waste and poor treatment of rank-and-file employees by management.

What do you think "downsizing" really is? It's a redistribution of wealth from the bottom to the top - the cost savings from those fired workers lines the pockets of senior management and shareholders. Period.

Everyone is expendable in a company. Period.

If you want to really make it, get a decent job, but start a side business doing something you love. Grow that business while using your present company for the health plan, 401k, and steady salary.

Once you get that business going, resign or if there's talk of a big layoff, "voluntarily" take a severance package.

I was terminated from my last real "job" and now I work for myself and make more money, have a more interesting life, and enjoy what I'm doing. I have no boss other than my clients, and I can "fire" a client that I don't like dealing with!

 

[diplomatic_lies]

I think the greatest irony of large corporations is that they are owned by the public.

Do I believe our capitalist market system is the most ideal?

No system is ever ideal. The most idealistic systems are also the ones prone to fail (ie. Communism).

 

[Interpol]

Originally posted by diplomatic_lies

No system is ever ideal. The most idealistic systems are also the ones prone to fail (ie. Communism).

This is completely correct. Capitalism is not perfect in any sense but I still believe it's better than anything else. It's easy to focus on the greed and evil on corporation while forgetting how much more convenient they make our lives.

 

[Create Reality]

Capitalism is a giant pyramid scheme.

ALL HAIL COMMUNISM!!!!1

 

[SELF-MASTERY]

The majority of workers in america are employed by small to medium size businesses. Yet the gov (both pol partys) pander to big business due to their financial contributions. The smaller companies get fk over while the gov is willing to bail out certain industries, not allowing the adam smith ideal of capitalism flurish (invisible hand.) What really pisses me off is the gov' s relationship with pharma corps....

Nothings wrong with growing a company and making a bucket full of money, as llong as it is done honestly.

 

[Gus]

The most idealistic systems are also the ones prone to fail (ie. Communism).

Communism is far from ideal. I do NOT want to live in a society where I am limited by everyone else.

Unfortunately, America is moving closer and closer to that kind of state (schools are already like that). People tend to forget the difference between "equality" and "equal rights".

Feminists try to make their pay equal to men's...the beauty of capitalism is that everything is naturally priced at what it is worth. When most women stop creating ridiculous drama, stop worrying about how things look but how functional they are, and simply become more productive...then their pay will rise. Imposing higher salaries and wages on us will discourage the truly productive, and encourage nonproductivity...who cares, everyone'll get paid the same anyway.

Communism is a government and economy created by women and religion--one where everyone is sensitive to everyone else's feeling and well-being. Capitalism is created by men, where each person is concerned about his own well-being.

 

[SELF-MASTERY]

Communism is a government and economy created by women and religion

I don't think you can validate that statement with any historical facts?

Capitalism is great but it is far from perfect. Everything is ALMOST priced at what it is worth, but things such as FOOD and PRESCRIPTION DRUGS are not. Even a persons salary isnt always based on what they are worth. I listen to neal boortz and agree with some principles of libertarianism (socially), but when you leave man to his vices corruption is sure to follow.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

What corporations do today is a far cry from Capitalism in its purist form. Capitalism is not defined as 'Big Business.' An owner of any company is considered a Capitalist (again in its purest form).

What has been going on in corporations is thievery, unfortunately people who don't understand how businesses work call this Capitalism. "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand is a good book that features Capitalism and has vivid examples of the 'looters' that bastardized its ideals.

 

[MetalFortress]

Originally posted by derEikopf

Communism is a government and economy created by women and religion--one where everyone is sensitive to everyone else's feeling and well-being. Capitalism is created by men, where each person is concerned about his own well-being.

Communism OPPRESSES religion, and women didn't create it - Karl Marx created it. Are you not using your brain?

WORKEROUTER

One thing me and my girlfriend consider differently is the idea of making money. She disdains the idea of corporations and such because they "eat up small business." She also seems to disdain the fact of how one person can own an entire company, not really do much work but soak up the majority of the profit, and let the thousands of workers toil for minimal wage.

Of course, these ideas are totally contrary to the ideas set forth in "Rich Dad, Poor Dad." The author basically disdains all the masses who whine and b*tch about the "system" and how it's unfair.

I stand along the lines of Robert Kiyoski (the author). Unlike my gf, I do not believe that corporations are bad or that large business men are evil and treat people unfairly. One day, I plan to become the "rich man" that Mr. Kiyoski describes by learning as much as a I can about finances and investments, and doing my best to "make money work me for me." I do not plan to whine and b*tch about the system and my bosses, as I toil away day after day like the middle-class robot for a menial wage, and have to beg for an annual raise.

But the reason for this is that I am between the spectrum of being idealistic and realistic. Do I believe our capitalist market system is the most ideal? I am not sure; I am still thinking about that. However, I DO know that I am born into it, and that I should not try to ignore that fact. And because of that, I will prosper as best I can in it.

So what are your thoughts about this? What do you think about the philosphical, ideal aspects of our economy and becoming wealthy, versus idealistic views?

You should explain the facts of corporations to your GF - that they are merely a legal entity, and there can be corps owned by 1000, 100, 10 people, or just 1 person. Many small businesses are corporations, and big businesses start off as small businesses. It's a dog eat dog world.

My recommendation for making it on your own and becoming wealthy is real estate. Next semester I am going to take classes to prepare to get my real estate license, and after that, I would like to sell real estate, as well as get into real estate investments.

Selling real estate didn't occur to me until you look at how the percentages add up - if you sell one house for 500,000 dollars at 4%, which is cheap anyways for a brokerage, you still make 20,000 dollars off of one house sale. If you sell 20 houses per year, you make 400 grand.

Becoming a licensed seller also helps with selling your own properties - think about it. If you sell a 500,000 dollar property on your own, you will have an extra 30,000 dollars in your pocket, compared to if you sell it with a brokerage for 6%. That's enough money for a down payment on another property - or to buy a BMW

Anyways, go your own way. Do what you want to do. If your girlfriend starts resenting you for becoming wealthy, rich, incorporating your business, etc, NEXT!!! (obviously)

LowPlainsDrifter

If you want to really make it, get a decent job, but start a side business doing something you love. Grow that business while using your present company for the health plan, 401k, and steady salary.

Disagree. Your job should only be a way of building up capital for your investments and business ventures. Once you become successful enough to buy a health plan, set up a retirement plan, and still have a very high cash flow, then your job will be unneeded, and you should only keep it if it's a part time job with benefits like that, and you're cheap.

 

[LowPlainsDrifter]

Originally posted by MetalFortress

Disagree. Your job should only be a way of building up capital for your investments and business ventures. Once you become successful enough to buy a health plan, set up a retirement plan, and still have a very high cash flow, then your job will be unneeded, and you should only keep it if it's a part time job with benefits like that, and you're cheap.

Actually, that's very similar to what I did.

RE: investments and retirement - I've had IRA and other investment accounts since the age of 18, that I funded from working at regular jobs, and continued to fund while working for others, and now while working for myself.

RE: health plan - I had good coverage under my employer. When I was let go, I used the COBRA coverage, and then only when forced to, found a decent health plan independently.

RE: startup capital - my business is low-overhead, high profit. My existing equipment and furniture, telephone, etc were enough to get me going - no high initial investments.

Since I was let go, I wasn't completely ready to do my business full time, but the choices were bankruptcy or scrounging for some crummy job, since the job market was far worse back then.

 

[A-Unit]

Re:

The value of a system depends on the users. No system will ever be perfect. BUT, capitalism does allow the most freedom for people to seek their own destiny, which in my mind is the ultimate freedom we should all support here in the United States and in other countries.


I've heard the view of your gf before, but what is the alternative? Poverty? Will you martyr yourself for a cause that's useless anyway? That sort of negative-minded thinking is what prevents many from having the money to do the philanthropic things that can be done in the world.


On the other hand, SCREWING goes on in all facets of life, not just corporations, and the government. Dr's do it to patients, cops have done it, reporters, sports players...where is it not done?


It's the same dog-eat-dog-world in modern day society. Most, however, are so idealistic, which is a fault, that they live pie in the sky 'wishing' for better days, yet not getting ahead to CREATE those better days.


My biggest gripe is government intervention and oversight. Yes, there are some things that require approval, such as drugs and supplements, and the public should pay for the added protection to ensure safe, quality products. BUT, the added layers of bureaucracy and favoritism easily adds more than 10% tax to American goods. Mean, if you're in the 30% tax bracket...you spend another 10% of your income just on cost increases due to government redtape and oversight for no other reason than binding the legal process.


It becomes harder and harder in some places to make a buck where they once existed ok, leading to the mistrust and shady dealings of companies and employees. And yes, there will always be people out to screw, with limited thinking that riches are in short supply, BUT, for those that don't, there's no better place to be.


And many times, it comes down to the sad fact that people just don't help themselves much so they get screwed by virtue of allowing it to happen. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped.



A-Unit

 

[Gus]

Communism is a government and economy created by women and religion

I'm not speaking literally...it's the feminine and religious way of thinking that I'm speaking of.


Francisco...agreed. Ayn Rand is one of the most important philosphers...EVER--and she isn't even mentioned in any history or English textbooks anywhere. Atlas Shrugged is a great book, but a lot of people are intimidated by its size. The Fountainhead is another great book focused more on the inner struggle rather than the macroeconomical struggle.

What corporations do today is a far cry from Capitalism in its purist form.

Exactly! That's what I was talking about when I said that America is moving closer to socialism and farther from capitalism.

Oh, Frisco, how's that copper coming?

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Originally posted by derEikopf
Oh, Frisco, how's that copper coming?

eh, it pays the bills...

 

[MetalFortress]

Originally posted by derEikopf
I'm not speaking literally...it's the feminine and religious way of thinking that I'm speaking of.

Still a bad point. To say that would be assuming that communism is considered the ideal by everyone, or at least by the most feminine of people, and communism has nothing to do with religion or a religious way of thinking.

 

[STR8UP]

I am in a similar situation.

My girlfriend has the standard "money=greed=bad" mentality that is so easy to fall into. Funny though, she is excited to get involved in investing when she gets done with school. Go figure?!?

She obviously has some screwed up misconceptions. She doesn't realize that she is contradicting herself. She must have some kind of idea of how much is too much, and she won't cross that line.

Whatever. She is just young and female (women tend to be worse about this than men) and has yet to learn that if it weren't for the few people who are out there making the wheels of society turn that she wouldn't have the cool nightclubs, shopping mall, restaurants, and whatever to go to.

Most of the time people who think this way are simply ignorant and take a default stance. It will always be in fashion to want to "stick it to the man". Good luck trying to rationalize the facts and benefits of a capitalist society to someone who strongly disagrees. This is one of those things that she will have to seek out and learn on her own if she is ever to change.

I have business dealings in a former communist country that is in the process of picking up its pieces and moving toward a democratic society. From what I understand some things were better when the old government was in place (they always had electricity and such). But you can already see the signs of capitalism beginning to transform this country into a modern society with lots of things for people to do and plenty of freedom to allow them to enjoy life. Granted they still have a LONG way to go. The police are corrupt, the infrastructure is substandard, etc., but this is to be expected from a country that has undergone such a change.

Yes, capitalism is the only way to go. It will always have its imperfections, but only a system that mimics the natural order of the world will survive. How long do you think the world would survive as we know it if all of the members of the animal kingdom started thinking like socialists? It's a pretty picture in theory, but it will NEVER work.

Now the question is.....could a relationship where the man is a hardcore capitalist and the woman pretty much the opposite ever work in the long run?

 

[Cbaoth]

Originally posted by Francisco d'Anconia
What corporations do today is a far cry from Capitalism in its purist form. Capitalism is not defined as 'Big Business.' An owner of any company is considered a Capitalist (again in its purest form).

What has been going on in corporations is thievery, unfortunately people who don't understand how businesses work call this Capitalism. "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand is a good book that features Capitalism and has vivid examples of the 'looters' that bastardized its ideals.

Well said.

Capitalism: The Unkown Ideal by Ayn Rand is also a great resource for understanding real capitalism. Made up of essays by Rand, Greenspan, Branden and Hessen.

Quite frankly Workerouter, man would have never acheived what it is has without the individuals that create these corporations. They deservedly reap the benefits of there effort. Why should a low level worker who performs a task that requires little thought earn alot of money??

A salary should reflect ones productive value....

 

[squirrels]

Watch the South Park episode with the Wal*Mart.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Originally posted by Cbaoth
Well said.

Capitalism: The Unkown Ideal by Ayn Rand is also a great resource for understanding real capitalism. Made up of essays by Rand, Greenspan, Branden and Hessen.

Quite frankly Workerouter, man would have never acheived what it is has without the individuals that create these corporations. They deservedly reap the benefits of there effort. Why should a low level worker who performs a task that requires little thought earn alot of money??

A salary should reflect ones productive value....

Very well said. The fact is that people are paid the worth of the task(s) that they perform. They are not forced or obligated to accept that pay. The biggest thing is that everyone has the right to create their own business and reap the benefit of building a company. However, people choose not to make the effort and would rather b1tch and gripe about not getting what they are "due". I guess that is easier than putting your neck on the line.

 

[Gus]

...communism has nothing to do with religion or a religious way of thinking.

Actually, socialism has everything to do with the religious way of thinking (particularly Christianity). One of Christianity's big teachings is self-sacrifice and service towards others.

For example, Jesus said to a young rich man, when the man asked Jesus how to get into Heaven: "Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor..."

Luke 6:24 says "But woe unto you that are rich! For ye have received your consolation."

Christianity preaches that your riches should be given to the poor. In other words, everyone should be poor. It is unfair to be rich when there are poor people, so you have to sacrifice your wealth for everyone else. Your sole purpose of production is for the sustenance of others...how long can a person live for everyone's sake but his own? Christians, in the truest sense, live their lives for their community and society (communism, socialism). THAT is the connection between religion (particularly Christianity) and socialism.

So if you're Christian, your responsibility, to avoid being hypocritical, is to give all of your money to the poor, and become poor yourself. Live your life for others. Hell, you might as well give your food to everyone else to. Why hoard it all for yourself? Other people are much more important than yourself...you might as well not breathe while you're at it...the people who smoke cigarettes could use that fresh air you're hoarding much more than you need it. After all, you're going to Heaven anyway, right?

It seems to me that seeking death is the only way to be the best Christian you can. But don't commit suicide...that's not biblical...

P.S. I am very well educated on Christianity--I grew up in a Church and was a very devout believer.