Making it In Today's World: Is it justifiable?

Francisco d'Anconia

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jul 10, 2003
Messages
15,502
Reaction score
63
Location
Galt's Gulch
I think a 15% flat tax across the board would work. With all things being truly equal, more of the people of means would accept that percentage rather rate two to four times that. It would be possible for more people to forgo diverting income to avoid unreasonable tax rates.

As for people with incomes deemed below the poverty level, their 15% would go directly to health care (which would include post retirement care). Any funds that were not used would incur interest in something such as government bonds. Those unused funds would be made available for retirement. It would actually be advantageous to low income individuals to stay healthy.

Too simplistic, probably. Benefits the wealthy, somewhat. I know that when I have extra money I buy things, contributing to sales tax. Those moneys would be readily available to local government which is more in need of funding than the Feds.
 

Luveno

Master Don Juan
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Messages
1,109
Reaction score
12
Age
42
I would say that modern society is moving away from Capitalism and approaching what is more of a Monarchistic state.
 

MetalFortress

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jun 28, 2003
Messages
3,273
Reaction score
22
Location
Keesler AFB, Mississippi
"The tax structure really rapes start-up small businesses. Probably a disincentive to compete with the fat cats the government really represents. Having a business pay 15% self-employment taxe on almost nonexistent profits is not reasonable. That is looting. Nobody who makes less than about $20,000 US should pay any income-based taxes of any sort."

Are you kidding me? Anybody can either incorporate or form an LLC for a few hundred bucks. Small business owners who are not smart enough to incorporate or form an LLC deserve to be run out of business for being idiots. In fact, today, if I wanted, I could go incorporate, with me being the only shareholder. Tax benefits, and asset protection. An actual legal business structure is essential for anybody who runs a small biz.
 

Francisco d'Anconia

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jul 10, 2003
Messages
15,502
Reaction score
63
Location
Galt's Gulch
Originally posted by MetalFortress
...Are you kidding me? Anybody can either incorporate or form an LLC for a few hundred bucks. Small business owners who are not smart enough to incorporate or form an LLC deserve to be run out of business for being idiots. In fact, today, if I wanted, I could go incorporate, with me being the only shareholder. Tax benefits, and asset protection. An actual legal business structure is essential for anybody who runs a small biz.
And that's the problem, these yahoos do not do the due diligence in learning how real corporations do it. They are suckered into creating "S-Corps" because it's easier to run than a C-Corp. Again this is because so many Americans want get rich quick schemes and have no idea what it takes to keep a real corporation viable.

So I agree, most small business owners do loose their business in less than three years because of their own lack of knowledge. No need for them to be run out by anyone, they do it to themselves.
 

al77

Master Don Juan
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
1,265
Reaction score
0
Location
Great Lakes
Originally posted by STR8UP
Can anyone be so ignorant as to believe that their quality of life would be better if the CEO made the same amount of money as the cleaning crew?
Do you really think the amount of money you or CEO have has a strong correlation with the quality of life??!
There is a simple fact: any person in US is considered really rich when compared with incomes\prices in any other countries.

You sure US population is the happier in the world? Facts says - not even close. Once you earn more than basic needs in food\clothes\etc the quality of life has nothig to do with money anymore.

What you are saying is true if you change 'quality of life" to "ecomony of the country".
 

Bonhomme

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jan 2, 2002
Messages
3,958
Reaction score
16
Location
Land of the Ruins
Forming an LLC does not cut taxes

It just makes the taxes pass through to the individual(s) that make(s) up the LLC.

Still, I cannot support the practice of taxing anyone who doesn't even make enough money to buy food. That's dead wrong, and only gives people an incentive to become parasites or criminals.
 

Gus

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Jan 16, 2003
Messages
235
Reaction score
0
Location
Florida
You sure US population is the happier in the world?
Would you be happy if you were purposely a hypocrite?

People don't love themselves enough...they aren't selfish enough. If they were, they would not sacrifice themselves (and by wearing mutiple faces, one is sacrificing their entire identity and, therefore, existence) for money.

Still, I cannot support the practice of taxing anyone who doesn't even make enough money to buy food.
Why not? The measure of an economy is basically the money it spends...so the more money everyone has, the better the economy. If we impose a heavy tax on rich and no tax on the poor, this will directly reduce the consumption function of GDP significantly because there will be MUCH less money to spend (since 10% of 10 million is much more than 10% of 10,000)...which decreases real GDP (Gross Domestic Product, the measure of an economy).

Income tax is evil...no doubt about that. But, if you can't afford food, then doesn't that make you eligible for welfare (which is paid for by the taxes that were taken away from the poor!)? Welfare is only available for a year or something like that...just long enough to get back on your feet. If you can't get a regular-paying job (full-time at McDonald's is more than enough for the bare essentials) in a year, then you don't deserve anyone's gratitude.

The plain fact is that it's not the poor who are the foundation of the economy, but the rich. If you eliminate the rich, then the economy is almost non-existant.
 

MetalFortress

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jun 28, 2003
Messages
3,273
Reaction score
22
Location
Keesler AFB, Mississippi
Originally posted by Francisco d'Anconia
And that's the problem, these yahoos do not do the due diligence in learning how real corporations do it. They are suckered into creating "S-Corps" because it's easier to run than a C-Corp. Again this is because so many Americans want get rich quick schemes and have no idea what it takes to keep a real corporation viable.

So I agree, most small business owners do loose their business in less than three years because of their own lack of knowledge. No need for them to be run out by anyone, they do it to themselves.
I never even understood why someone would form an s-corp, myself. A c-corp has unlimited growth potential, while an s-corp does not, as far as I know, and that was enough to put me off of even considering an s-corp.
 

cinephile

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
Messages
225
Reaction score
0
Age
57
Location
Texas
Some answered questions

I think some of y'all need to rethink what the US governement is. While it would be nice to view it as some kind Democratic Construct that is here to realise deeply held values about Truth, Justice, and the American way, it is not. Essentially, it really just another large company, of which we are all shareholder (well, those who are citizens at least). What does this company provide?

The best health care in the world
The best and most financial opportunities overall
The best education system
The greatest variety of social and culture activities
The best distribution of wealth
The lowest Tax rates compared to most industrialized nations

and on and on.

The US Governement is the single largest contibuter to the world economy. It is more than a nation, it is the engine that drives the economies of the world.

But getting back to the original question of whether it is right to make huge amounts of $$ at the expense of others, Well obviously it is wrong. But in reality who cares. Life is unfair and nothing is going to change that. Yes, you should do your best to do what is right at all times, but that is not going to happen is it. I would think it would be more important to be the best person you can be, rather than worry about $$$.
 

Francisco d'Anconia

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jul 10, 2003
Messages
15,502
Reaction score
63
Location
Galt's Gulch
Re: Some answered questions

Originally posted by cinephile
I think some of y'all need to rethink what the US governement is. While it would be nice to view it as some kind Democratic Construct that is here to realise deeply held values about Truth, Justice, and the American way, it is not. Essentially, it really just another large company, of which we are all shareholder (well, those who are citizens at least). What does this company provide?

The best health care in the world
The best and most financial opportunities overall
The best education system
The greatest variety of social and culture activities
The best distribution of wealth
The lowest Tax rates compared to most industrialized nations

and on and on.

The US Governement is the single largest contibuter to the world economy. It is more than a nation, it is the engine that drives the economies of the world.

But getting back to the original question of whether it is right to make huge amounts of $$ at the expense of others, Well obviously it is wrong. But in reality who cares. Life is unfair and nothing is going to change that. Yes, you should do your best to do what is right at all times, but that is not going to happen is it. I would think it would be more important to be the best person you can be, rather than worry about $$$.
I do agree that the US government is a huge corporation however the only thing that I can agree with from your list of 'company benefits' is the variety of social and cultural activities.

  1. For the best health care you should visit Sweden.
  2. It could be said that we have the most financial opportunities available to anyone who wants to take advantage of it, however because of our overall lack of financial prowess, few do.
  3. For years our students have ranked in the lower half of world's average.
  4. Distribution of wealth is evil. A doctor goes to college for 12 years and incurs school debt equal to a home mortgage. Yet s/he is taxed more than someone without any student loans just because they are able to secure a job that merits a high salary? That's penalizing a person for investing in his own future.
  5. Taxes are evil, remember why we left England in the first place. Originally US citizens only had to pay taxes when there was a war going on. Now you are taxed when you make money, when you invest money, when you spend money, when you give money as a gift and when you die! WTF???!!!
    [/list=1]

    Yeah, I agree that we don't have it as bad as some countries, but we shouldn't be blind as to how we are being taken advantage of ourselves.
 

Peace and Quiet

If you currently have too many women chasing you, calling you, harassing you, knocking on your door at 2 o'clock in the morning... then I have the simple solution for you.

Just read my free ebook 22 Rules for Massive Success With Women and do the opposite of what I recommend.

This will quickly drive all women away from you.

And you will be able to relax and to live your life in peace and quiet.

Luveno

Master Don Juan
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Messages
1,109
Reaction score
12
Age
42
4. Distribution of wealth is evil. A doctor goes to college for 12 years and incurs school debt equal to a home mortgage. Yet s/he is taxed more than someone without any student loans just because they are able to secure a job that merits a high salary? That's penalizing a person for investing in his own future.
I'm from Canada, but its basically USA Jr.
What Francisco says is the truth.

The US Governement is the single largest contibuter to the world economy. It is more than a nation, it is the engine that drives the economies of the world.
The US government is also the worlds most debt-ridden economy. Soon the investors will tire of the debt and move their capital to more lucrative markets. That will in turn cause a gargantuan economic crash.
Prominent analysists and economists predict that this will happen in our lifetimes( about 2 decades).
 

cinephile

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
Messages
225
Reaction score
0
Age
57
Location
Texas
Sorry, but I think you are wrong on some of your facts.

The U.S. spend more than any other country on its healthcare. The result being that we have the best quality overall. Yes, other countries have better access to basic services, but overall ours is better.

The U.S. is the center of the world's finacial markets. Of all the developed nations, we have the most open markets period. This is mainly due to our general stability. The world invests in our Bonds because they know the U.S. will be around to make good on them. The EC just started to get on the band wagon only ten years ago, and their growth is still sluggish. Yes, other countries have better growth rates, but you are talking about countries who are still developing. Sure , there are lots of great opportunities in China and Russia. They also have so many infrastructure needs, that seriously going there would require a lot of investment capital and long term planing to deal with the general insatbility. Better to stay in the US where you have an advanced market.

As far as education goes, The U.S. has more schools and educators than any other country in world. If our education system is so bad, then why do so many people come here to go to college? The problem is that it is unequal. We all know the schools in the rich neighborhoods are much better than the poor ones. This is definately a major problem which needs to be adressed. How I could not tell you.

The redistribution of wealth (per you example) is not necessarily evil. Doctors make, in general, less money today than they did 30 years ago, not so much from government intervention but the creation of HMO's and major Hospital corporations. By using their massive financial leverage on the individual physicians, they were able to drive total costs down. Ideally this should have been passed on to the consumers. Instead, it went back to the corporations. While I do have sympathy for the extremely high malpractice insurance rates they have to pay, I really don't feel so bad for them overall. From what I can tell, most doctors still do quite well despite the recent changes. Also, just because a person went to school for 12+ years, does that somehow entitle them to make a fortune?

And finally concerning taxes. Yes, I hate them too. The entire system need to be changed so as that it is simpler and fairer. Personally, I think a graduated flat tax would be a good idea, of 7%, 14%, 21%( rate applied would depend on income, no deductions). I have no problem with paying a higher rate if I make more income because I am benefiting the greatest from
the stabilty the government is providing.
 

Francisco d'Anconia

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jul 10, 2003
Messages
15,502
Reaction score
63
Location
Galt's Gulch
Originally posted by Luveno
I'm from Canada, but its basically USA Jr.
What Francisco says is the truth.
Here's something else to consider; if people are penalized for investing in their own future, why should they invest at all? Why should they invest if they are going to be persecuted by their countrymen for their achievements? Why should they if for every dollar they make almost half goes for taxes while there are people who feel that they should pay even more, just because they have more? Why should they if their government will play Robin Hood to people who haven't put forth nearly the effort of the men of means and do so in the name of equality? Why should anyone put forth an effort to secure their own future as long as their government agrees to take care of them by taking from others?

The fact is that although people protest about how corporations steal from their workers (even though they are paid a salary), they feel justification if the government steals from wealthy people and give it to them. Theft is theft no matter the looter, that is the only thing that is truly equal.
 

cinephile

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
Messages
225
Reaction score
0
Age
57
Location
Texas
Concerning our Debt

Yes, the US debt is a huge problem. It though, will not cause a huge international monetary crisis. The reason why is that too many people around the world have invested in the US to see it go bankrupt. We won't have a monetary crisis like in Argentina and Thailand in the 90's where their economies went right down the crapper, forcing them to seriously devalue their currencies.

The debt will slow down general growth. This is a major problem. What will happen most likely is that economy will start to stagnate as the new world powers start to emerge. In a way, we have been living high off the hog since WW2, and now its is time to pay the proverbial piper.

What won't happen is that somehow we will be regulated to Third World Status. We are the most developed, educated nation in the world. That fact alone makes us a prized economic partner.

What will happen is that the economy will become international. In a way, nations will become irrelevant, and more and more people will develope this perspective. The wealthy and privilaged will be extra national, in that they really have no national distinction except for commerce. At, that point, who knows what will happen.
 

Luveno

Master Don Juan
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Messages
1,109
Reaction score
12
Age
42
The U.S. spend more than any other country on its healthcare. The result being that we have the best quality overall. Yes, other countries have better access to basic services, but overall ours is better.
This is incorrect. The US does spend a ridiculous amount on health care. However, it is often substandard, and at best on the same level as Canada. Studies done at Harvard showed that a public health care system actually cost the government less and provided better services than the current American system. The private system wastes a lot of time and money on waging middlemen and HMOs that are unneccessary.

The U.S. is the center of the world's finacial markets. Of all the developed nations, we have the most open markets period. This is mainly due to our general stability. The world invests in our Bonds because they know the U.S. will be around to make good on them. The EC just started to get on the band wagon only ten years ago, and their growth is still sluggish. Yes, other countries have better growth rates, but you are talking about countries who are still developing. Sure , there are lots of great opportunities in China and Russia. They also have so many infrastructure needs, that seriously going there would require a lot of investment capital and long term planing to deal with the general insatbility. Better to stay in the US where you have an advanced market.
True now, but in decades time when the markets of the EU and China catch up, the US will be severely crippled economically. When the investing goes to those new markets, the US, which primarily relies on the services industry will have no natural resources to fall back on.


As far as education goes, The U.S. has more schools and educators than any other country in world. If our education system is so bad, then why do so many people come here to go to college? The problem is that it is unequal. We all know the schools in the rich neighborhoods are much better than the poor ones. This is definately a major problem which needs to be adressed. How I could not tell you.
It is the same in Canada. High school and below is basically useless in today's job market, so I will concentrate on university. Whereas not even 10 years ago University was affordable for everyone, now tuitions have increased almost 300%. There are more wealthy idiots than poor geniuses at schools now, which is terrible. The right of education will soon become a fantasy, and progress will be reduced as a result.

The redistribution of wealth (per you example) is not necessarily evil. Doctors make, in general, less money today than they did 30 years ago, not so much from government intervention but the creation of HMO's and major Hospital corporations. By using their massive financial leverage on the individual physicians, they were able to drive total costs down. Ideally this should have been passed on to the consumers. Instead, it went back to the corporations. While I do have sympathy for the extremely high malpractice insurance rates they have to pay, I really don't feel so bad for them overall. From what I can tell, most doctors still do quite well despite the recent changes. Also, just because a person went to school for 12+ years, does that somehow entitle them to make a fortune?
Although my opinion may be biased, I believe saving lives and preventing illness is more important and respectable than , for example, throwing a ball in a net, and is thus worth more money, but in today's monarchistic economy that values sport as greater than intelligence and social merit, its the other way around. Its pure marketing.
However, due to the ridiculous amount of debt that doctors come out with, we in Canada have less and less physicians taking up general practice, and more opting for the high-paying fields like Cardio, Ophtho, Derm, Plastics, ENT, etc. I honestly don't blame them one bit. If the docs aren't paid well enough they should either go to a high paying field or go to another country.

But, if you can't afford food, then doesn't that make you eligible for welfare (which is paid for by the taxes that were taken away from the poor!)? Welfare is only available for a year or something like that...just long enough to get back on your feet. If you can't get a regular-paying job (full-time at McDonald's is more than enough for the bare essentials) in a year, then you don't deserve anyone's gratitude.
This is a retarded statement. On welfare, with no education and a kid or two, this is what will happen:

1. the family will only be able to afford junk food, thus making them fat. The fatness will cost the health care system more and also make them less attractive.
2. Their lack of attractiveness will limit their employment to WalMart, and even that's a stretch.
3. WalMart doesn't pay enough to improve or even sustain an adequate quality of life.
4. Any hope for a better job is out the window, due to the lack of an education and lack of sufficient funds to start a business. Aside from porn, which pays better than walmart, they're basically in a pit of poverty for the rest of their lives.

They should do it like they do in Switzerland. Welfare is 7 years long, and is like a loan, not a handout. It pays for good food and an education. With that education one can get a job and pay the government back. If they fail to do so after the 7 year period, they are jailed and their children are taken away. That is fair.
 

What happens, IN HER MIND, is that she comes to see you as WORTHLESS simply because she hasn't had to INVEST anything in you in order to get you or to keep you.

You were an interesting diversion while she had nothing else to do. But now that someone a little more valuable has come along, someone who expects her to treat him very well, she'll have no problem at all dropping you or demoting you to lowly "friendship" status.

Quote taken from The SoSuave Guide to Women and Dating, which you can read for FREE.

Francisco d'Anconia

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jul 10, 2003
Messages
15,502
Reaction score
63
Location
Galt's Gulch
Originally posted by cinephile
Sorry, but I think you are wrong on some of your facts.

The U.S. spend more than any other country on its healthcare. The result being that we have the best quality overall. Yes, other countries have better access to basic services, but overall ours is better.

The U.S. is the center of the world's finacial markets. Of all the developed nations, we have the most open markets period. This is mainly due to our general stability. The world invests in our Bonds because they know the U.S. will be around to make good on them. The EC just started to get on the band wagon only ten years ago, and their growth is still sluggish. Yes, other countries have better growth rates, but you are talking about countries who are still developing. Sure , there are lots of great opportunities in China and Russia. They also have so many infrastructure needs, that seriously going there would require a lot of investment capital and long term planing to deal with the general insatbility. Better to stay in the US where you have an advanced market.

As far as education goes, The U.S. has more schools and educators than any other country in world. If our education system is so bad, then why do so many people come here to go to college? The problem is that it is unequal. We all know the schools in the rich neighborhoods are much better than the poor ones. This is definately a major problem which needs to be adressed. How I could not tell you.

The redistribution of wealth (per you example) is not necessarily evil. Doctors make, in general, less money today than they did 30 years ago, not so much from government intervention but the creation of HMO's and major Hospital corporations. By using their massive financial leverage on the individual physicians, they were able to drive total costs down. Ideally this should have been passed on to the consumers. Instead, it went back to the corporations. While I do have sympathy for the extremely high malpractice insurance rates they have to pay, I really don't feel so bad for them overall. From what I can tell, most doctors still do quite well despite the recent changes. Also, just because a person went to school for 12+ years, does that somehow entitle them to make a fortune?

And finally concerning taxes. Yes, I hate them too. The entire system need to be changed so as that it is simpler and fairer. Personally, I think a graduated flat tax would be a good idea, of 7%, 14%, 21%( rate applied would depend on income, no deductions). I have no problem with paying a higher rate if I make more income because I am benefiting the greatest from
the stabilty the government is providing.
The facts you quote may be corect but when it comes down to effectiveness, the US pales in comparison to several other countries. Throwing an abundance of money at a problem does not equate to making it better.

Look at test scores, look at the health of our citizens, look at how many people who live beneath poverty levels, look at the divorce rate, look at the high school and college graduation rate, look at infant mortality, look at the drug problem.... We throw money at all of these things and still can not make a dent in these problems.

All of this from a country that professes to be the greatest in the world? Come on now, live in other countries and see how things compare.

I'm working on my doctorate and all of my colleagues are shocked my chosen field of study because it's not the most lucrative but the educational and licensing requirement cost are in the upper 30% of medical fields. Why did I choose it? It's my passion and I will find other means to subsidize my income.

Here's my take on a person's ability to make a fortune; the only way that anyone can (without stealing it) is by providing a service or product that is widely wanted or needed. There is a great need for competent doctors and people are willing to pay for it.

It's the same with sports figures who make even more right out of high school. How can they? People are willing to pay$100 a ticket to see them. The market is there so why not take advantage of it.

How about exotic dancers? No they may not become millionaires but why should they make even a dollar just because they parade naked around rooms of drooling men? BECAUSE THERE IS A MARKET FOR IT! AND IT'S NOT ILLEGAL!

I don't understand why some people feel that it is better to pull people down to meritocracy instead of pushing people up to greatness. Tell me, what is so great about being average, to be like everyone else?
 

Francisco d'Anconia

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jul 10, 2003
Messages
15,502
Reaction score
63
Location
Galt's Gulch
I'll add that for years welfare had no restrictions what so ever. When I lived in Chicago, there third generation welfare recipients receiving assistance!

People were having children while on welfare and their children were too! This isn't an exaggeration either, fourteen year old girls who's mothers had been on welfare were having children themselves! This is sick!

And how does this happen? Because people believe that just because we throw billions of dollars at a problem, we must be the best at what we are doing. Yes, we are the best at using money to perpetuate our country's problems. What's worse is that it seems that you have to be a foreigner to recognize the problem.
 

cinephile

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
Messages
225
Reaction score
0
Age
57
Location
Texas
Yes, I agree that quality healthcare is definately more vaulable than the ridiculous sums most pro sports players are paid. But to be honest, that is the public's fault. If they did'nt agree to pay the ridiculous amount to go to games, buy all that merchandising, and create a ridiculous amount of interest in sports and entertainment, then the money would'nt be ther to pay them. Hey, I love Jordan and so did 50 million others. Consequently, Nike though they might make a few bucks off of him.

As far as healthcare is concerned. Well, if people took better care of themselves, they probably would'nt need to go to the doctor as often. The US is the fattest nation in the world ya know.

A lot of our problems stem from ourselves, from our unhealthy food, our outrageous consumer debt, to our somewhat infintile obsession with celebrity and status. Change has got to come from within first.
 

Luveno

Master Don Juan
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Messages
1,109
Reaction score
12
Age
42
Change has got to come from within first.
..but its so much easier if someone else does it.


:rolleyes: (the rolling of the eyes symbolizes my loathe for the laziness and sloth of the western world)
 

cinephile

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
Messages
225
Reaction score
0
Age
57
Location
Texas
The idea of a meritocrasy (or however it spelled) is flawed in that it assumes that people have equal opportunity and capacity, We all know this is not true. It is just another populist ploy that sounds good, but really does'nt change anything.

As far as striving towad greatness goes. I don't think people actually have a problem with that. It is more what ever greatest is percieved to be.

If someone feels they have achieved greatness by ruthlessly making a billion dollars for his corporation, then they are not going to get too many admirers. Many might love the cash, but probably not the man.

I believe greatness comes from doing those things which are in us all but yet no one does. It does'nt necessaily come from ability but from heart.
 
Top