I'd say you treat her as you would a friend for a while. Don't avoid her and make yourself seem mad at her, just behave as if she was your female friend. That would mean no kisses, no sexual huging, just smiles. If you have been getting BJs or what not from her on regular basis as you say you did she will start to wonder after a week or so as to how and why you can get by without her affection. Hopefully she will try to change in a big way and win your love back over. She knows what it will take, so the ball is in her court to step up and do it.
LTR, no sex... 1 year. i get everything else i want (oral etc) HELP I'M GOING MAD!
- Thread starter darktempler
- Start date
Not bad. I'd say that you did pretty well with the situation. I probably wouldn't have used your word choice, but you put your foot down, and let her know that she is not getting anything from you until she bends a little (no pun intended).
Keep up with it, and make sure that if you do want her back, with the sex, that you try to keep things as positive as you can. Make sure that she knows that you're willing to walk if she's not willing to compramise. But at the same time I'd try to push for showing her that sex is not a bad thing, let we have said before.
You know what, I questioned the effectivness of patterns before too, but then I realized just how powerful they are. If you recite these at the right time, with the right tone, she feels what the patterns were written for her to feel. When she is feeling this, she looks to the source of who is providing her the feelings, and sees you. That is how they are intended to work. Try them, what do you have to lose? You haven't had sex in a year. What's the worst that can happen if you try them?
-Blitz
Keep up with it, and make sure that if you do want her back, with the sex, that you try to keep things as positive as you can. Make sure that she knows that you're willing to walk if she's not willing to compramise. But at the same time I'd try to push for showing her that sex is not a bad thing, let we have said before.
You know what, I questioned the effectivness of patterns before too, but then I realized just how powerful they are. If you recite these at the right time, with the right tone, she feels what the patterns were written for her to feel. When she is feeling this, she looks to the source of who is providing her the feelings, and sees you. That is how they are intended to work. Try them, what do you have to lose? You haven't had sex in a year. What's the worst that can happen if you try them?
-Blitz
Jake Steed
Master Don Juan
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darktempler, I agree with Blitz that you took a step in the right direction. YOU must be in control at all times. Remember, that's what she secretly longs for.
One important thing you need to remember is the REAL reason she won't have sex with you has nothing to do with religion or society, or morals or any of that shyt.
The real reason she won't fvck you is because:
1. You don't turn her on enough.
2. You haven't demonstrated enough value to her.
Example: Let's say tomorrow she meets Freddie Prinze Jr. I'm talking the actual actor. He invites her to a plush Hollywood party where she rubs elbows with Brittany Spears, Jennifer Love Hewitt, etc. Michelle Gellar is totally jealous because Freddie clearly has the hots for your girl. After the party, he drives her to his beach house in his new Porsche Carrera. When they get to his beach house, he starts making out with her and slowly starts to unzip her clothes.
Now how much value does Freddie Prinze Jr. have in the eyes of your gf? Do you think she's even going to mention her "morals" or "no sex before marraige"? Do you think she's going to tell him he has to "wait until she's ready which may or may not be before marraige"??
Or is she going to tear off his clothes, bend over the nightstand, and beg him to plow her like a Georgia acre?
How much value would she have in him? Now how much value does she place in YOU? It's all about how she percieves you. How much status she percieves you to have. This translates to VALUE. A valuable man is SO valuable to her that her "morals" don't mean shyt. She fvcks him and comes up with an appropriate excuse for her actions later.
This is why I would not suggest to "be an AFC" and start telling her you care, you love her more than usual, etc. If you do this and she decides to throw you a table scrap of her ass, you will pay for it in spades for the rest of your relationship. She will hold it over your head.
Like some of these guys said, you have to make her think it was HER idea. What I would have done is avoid the ultimatums for now and focus on more subtle approaches.
For instance, you need to make her feel like getting sex from you is a rare, valuable thing she'll miss out on if she doesn't play her cards right. You could go down on her and just as she is about to come, you pull away and tell her, "I don't think we should do this. This is against your beliefs." Then go home and leave her hanging. This way you use her own arguments against her. Then the next time, just go for the fvck. No questions. Just be the aggressive guy she wants to "take" her.
Like Tantric said, show her you are going to fvck her, but you don't NEED the sex. Otherwise she will feel like she's doing YOU a favor. You need to reverse the roles and make her feel like you're doing HER a favor by fvcking her. You're on the right track by cutting off the sex.
For now, I'd avoid verbalizing (talking about) the topic. Date her like usual, don't cut off putting the arm around her or the small kissing just yet. Alternate how much physical attention you give her. Some nights, get her naked and stop, while other nights, don't even kiss her on the cheek. Keep her guessing and WANTING SEX WITH YOU BUT WONDERING WHAT YOU'LL DO NEXT.
When she finally caves, fvck her brains out and make her feel lucky and happy she came to her senses and opened up those legs.
Keep us updated. And date other girls!!
Jake
One important thing you need to remember is the REAL reason she won't have sex with you has nothing to do with religion or society, or morals or any of that shyt.
The real reason she won't fvck you is because:
1. You don't turn her on enough.
2. You haven't demonstrated enough value to her.
Example: Let's say tomorrow she meets Freddie Prinze Jr. I'm talking the actual actor. He invites her to a plush Hollywood party where she rubs elbows with Brittany Spears, Jennifer Love Hewitt, etc. Michelle Gellar is totally jealous because Freddie clearly has the hots for your girl. After the party, he drives her to his beach house in his new Porsche Carrera. When they get to his beach house, he starts making out with her and slowly starts to unzip her clothes.
Now how much value does Freddie Prinze Jr. have in the eyes of your gf? Do you think she's even going to mention her "morals" or "no sex before marraige"? Do you think she's going to tell him he has to "wait until she's ready which may or may not be before marraige"??
Or is she going to tear off his clothes, bend over the nightstand, and beg him to plow her like a Georgia acre?
How much value would she have in him? Now how much value does she place in YOU? It's all about how she percieves you. How much status she percieves you to have. This translates to VALUE. A valuable man is SO valuable to her that her "morals" don't mean shyt. She fvcks him and comes up with an appropriate excuse for her actions later.
This is why I would not suggest to "be an AFC" and start telling her you care, you love her more than usual, etc. If you do this and she decides to throw you a table scrap of her ass, you will pay for it in spades for the rest of your relationship. She will hold it over your head.
Like some of these guys said, you have to make her think it was HER idea. What I would have done is avoid the ultimatums for now and focus on more subtle approaches.
For instance, you need to make her feel like getting sex from you is a rare, valuable thing she'll miss out on if she doesn't play her cards right. You could go down on her and just as she is about to come, you pull away and tell her, "I don't think we should do this. This is against your beliefs." Then go home and leave her hanging. This way you use her own arguments against her. Then the next time, just go for the fvck. No questions. Just be the aggressive guy she wants to "take" her.
Like Tantric said, show her you are going to fvck her, but you don't NEED the sex. Otherwise she will feel like she's doing YOU a favor. You need to reverse the roles and make her feel like you're doing HER a favor by fvcking her. You're on the right track by cutting off the sex.
For now, I'd avoid verbalizing (talking about) the topic. Date her like usual, don't cut off putting the arm around her or the small kissing just yet. Alternate how much physical attention you give her. Some nights, get her naked and stop, while other nights, don't even kiss her on the cheek. Keep her guessing and WANTING SEX WITH YOU BUT WONDERING WHAT YOU'LL DO NEXT.
When she finally caves, fvck her brains out and make her feel lucky and happy she came to her senses and opened up those legs.
Keep us updated. And date other girls!!
Jake
Back up a bit dude...
Be very careful on HOW you handle the situation from this on in...you DO NOT want to end up being the JERK or A$$HOLE at this point...yes, you gained control...GOOD...BUT i personally don't think you should have made it SO evident, cuz how your update was written it sounded like you were giving her even more of an ultimatum...maybe i should have been a bit more clear in my suggestion...she HAS TO TRUST YOU!!!! I wouldn't have came out and said, "i'm not attracted to you anymore"...you are not handling it like a DJ...when i said, "don't care so much", i meant it...as a DJ you are STILL the one who should be DJ'ing her...cuz now you are BOTH playing games...it's going back and forth...
like it was written in a previous post, someone who REALLY respects their Christian beliefs would NOT being giving oral...ANY sexual contact is restricted...
like Jake Steed said...demonstrate value...
For now, play it really cool...
I agree with Jake Steed...
Be very careful on HOW you handle the situation from this on in...you DO NOT want to end up being the JERK or A$$HOLE at this point...yes, you gained control...GOOD...BUT i personally don't think you should have made it SO evident, cuz how your update was written it sounded like you were giving her even more of an ultimatum...maybe i should have been a bit more clear in my suggestion...she HAS TO TRUST YOU!!!! I wouldn't have came out and said, "i'm not attracted to you anymore"...you are not handling it like a DJ...when i said, "don't care so much", i meant it...as a DJ you are STILL the one who should be DJ'ing her...cuz now you are BOTH playing games...it's going back and forth...
like it was written in a previous post, someone who REALLY respects their Christian beliefs would NOT being giving oral...ANY sexual contact is restricted...
like Jake Steed said...demonstrate value...
For now, play it really cool...
I agree with Jake Steed...
This is very true! And Jake Steed's advice above is spot on aswell! At the moment she is enjoying the effort you are putting into coercing her to give up her virginity. And the feelings of importance her virginity (and you) are giving her... These are VALUED feelings for her.
She doesn't know how much she'll like intercourse yet, but she certainly knows how much she's currently enjoying being the angelic virgin!
I'd try using jealousy... This girl is so convinced she's got you obsessed with HER (and with her sacred virginity) that she thinks she doesn't need to give you what YOU want. Do you know any girls with BIG reputations? Well start showing some them attention... even if you don't like them. And let your girl find out. I'm sure she knows by now what she'll need to do to stop you looking elsewhere!
By the way I thought oral sex was much more sinful for most christians than regular intercourse?
Oh yeah... If you do NEXT her, she WILL screw another guy within two weeks to get back at you... I have seen it happen! So much for wanting it to be special... and her morals!
[This message has been edited by Simon Iff (edited 08-10-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Simon Iff (edited 08-10-2002).]
~The_Chosen~
Master Don Juan
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Dump her.
Same girl did that to me. Guess what she said when I dumped her?
Don't mess yourself up, take care of yourself and I mean it.
She meant it in a way as in, don't date others and fvck them. And she wouldn't have sex with me, we also did everything from oral, to fingering, BJ's, all that. It was over a year relationship also.
These girls are SELFISH as anything or just plain brainwashed. Sad really, avoid them, they only think about *themselves*
Funny thing was, when I didn't give a sh!t about her in the beginning of our relationship (went after other girls, etc.) she literally told me, I would give it up to you if you want it.
Then all of a sudden she changes her mind. She's been brainwashed by her parents and how much they lecture her.
ANd yes, everyone else here pretty much nailed it. Girls like this want all the pleasure and no responsibility. They aren't women, women are MATURE, these little girls aren't.
Leave her and fvck someone else, watch how jealous she gets, rub it in her face, let your new lover brag how good you are in bed.
Now, she will *really* want to fvck you, mess around with her, then reject her ass.
Tell her, I'm not SEXUALLY attracted to you anymore, you aren't a sexual person period, what a shame... and LEAVE her there. Don't ever give it up to her, be selfish, play FIRE WITH FIRE. Show her the stupid mistake she has made.
Then when she becomes smarter, give it to her, notice you are the one deciding to have sex with her or not (not her). Just open their minds and they'll realize.
Other than that, stay away from selfish attention wh0res.
Peace
------------------
~The_Chosen~ has spoken...
Judge a man by his questions and not his answers.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then is just not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Same girl did that to me. Guess what she said when I dumped her?
Don't mess yourself up, take care of yourself and I mean it.
She meant it in a way as in, don't date others and fvck them. And she wouldn't have sex with me, we also did everything from oral, to fingering, BJ's, all that. It was over a year relationship also.
These girls are SELFISH as anything or just plain brainwashed. Sad really, avoid them, they only think about *themselves*
Funny thing was, when I didn't give a sh!t about her in the beginning of our relationship (went after other girls, etc.) she literally told me, I would give it up to you if you want it.
Then all of a sudden she changes her mind. She's been brainwashed by her parents and how much they lecture her.
ANd yes, everyone else here pretty much nailed it. Girls like this want all the pleasure and no responsibility. They aren't women, women are MATURE, these little girls aren't.
Leave her and fvck someone else, watch how jealous she gets, rub it in her face, let your new lover brag how good you are in bed.
Now, she will *really* want to fvck you, mess around with her, then reject her ass.
Tell her, I'm not SEXUALLY attracted to you anymore, you aren't a sexual person period, what a shame... and LEAVE her there. Don't ever give it up to her, be selfish, play FIRE WITH FIRE. Show her the stupid mistake she has made.
Then when she becomes smarter, give it to her, notice you are the one deciding to have sex with her or not (not her). Just open their minds and they'll realize.
Other than that, stay away from selfish attention wh0res.
Peace
------------------
~The_Chosen~ has spoken...
Judge a man by his questions and not his answers.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then is just not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
darktempler
Don Juan
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****UPDATE****
last night, i acted like a complete jerk towards her. even SHE called me a JERK/******* . i let my emotions get the better of me. ****.
now, i have decided to regain all her trust again. act normally but cut off all physical intimacy apart from holding hands.
if she questions, i'm gonna tell her i'm not in the mood.
i am due to call her today, i said i would after i walked out on her and told her
"i had nothing to say to selfish hypocrytes like her"
i then argued JPG's point across. i said if there is no physical relationship then what am i except a very close friend? she couldn't answer the question. she KNEW i was right.
now, even through i said i'd call, i'm going to keep the conversation down to 5 mins. long enough for me to SHOW that i care, check how she is etc... but i WILL NOT make any APOLIGY for what happened.
what IS interesting is that she went TOTALLY emotional on me and TOLD me to break up with her cos she can't break up with me. and she was hurting so much that i might as well... and she told me that she had never cried so much about anyone in her life blah blah blah....she still loves me etc....
hopefully limiting contact,will instill VALUE in her. i will only make contact with her once every 2-3 days for only very short times... like 15 mins. Jake Steed was right. i need to work on the VALUE aspect of her.
during this time, i will try to regain her trust.
Simon Iff you have put a new angle on this thing for me. yes she is ENYOYING the attension she is getting from being a virgin. now i realise this, she will get NO sexual attension from me. the aim is to make her realise that being VIRGIN means she's not gonna get any attension.
Tantric oops, i seem to have forgotten the trust part of your post. no worries... i WILL slowly get that back. then i will explain to her WHY i would like to make love to her ONCE she is more open.i think at the moment there is no use in telling her about SEX and influencing her mentally when she isn't mentally open to me.
xblitz44x dammit, i didn't manage to keep the attitude positive here. grrrrrr **slap on dark templers balls**
btw, when this is all over and noone posts here anymore, i'm gonna do a complete summary post, and put it in the tips section with all approprate contributors mentioned, quotes etc.... i don't think we have anything like this in the Tips section yet.
i will update this post at least once a day.
anymore feedback appreciated. Thanks. cudn't do this without u guys.
last night, i acted like a complete jerk towards her. even SHE called me a JERK/******* . i let my emotions get the better of me. ****.
now, i have decided to regain all her trust again. act normally but cut off all physical intimacy apart from holding hands.
if she questions, i'm gonna tell her i'm not in the mood.
i am due to call her today, i said i would after i walked out on her and told her
"i had nothing to say to selfish hypocrytes like her"
i then argued JPG's point across. i said if there is no physical relationship then what am i except a very close friend? she couldn't answer the question. she KNEW i was right.
now, even through i said i'd call, i'm going to keep the conversation down to 5 mins. long enough for me to SHOW that i care, check how she is etc... but i WILL NOT make any APOLIGY for what happened.
what IS interesting is that she went TOTALLY emotional on me and TOLD me to break up with her cos she can't break up with me. and she was hurting so much that i might as well... and she told me that she had never cried so much about anyone in her life blah blah blah....she still loves me etc....
hopefully limiting contact,will instill VALUE in her. i will only make contact with her once every 2-3 days for only very short times... like 15 mins. Jake Steed was right. i need to work on the VALUE aspect of her.
during this time, i will try to regain her trust.
Simon Iff you have put a new angle on this thing for me. yes she is ENYOYING the attension she is getting from being a virgin. now i realise this, she will get NO sexual attension from me. the aim is to make her realise that being VIRGIN means she's not gonna get any attension.
Tantric oops, i seem to have forgotten the trust part of your post. no worries... i WILL slowly get that back. then i will explain to her WHY i would like to make love to her ONCE she is more open.i think at the moment there is no use in telling her about SEX and influencing her mentally when she isn't mentally open to me.
xblitz44x dammit, i didn't manage to keep the attitude positive here. grrrrrr **slap on dark templers balls**
btw, when this is all over and noone posts here anymore, i'm gonna do a complete summary post, and put it in the tips section with all approprate contributors mentioned, quotes etc.... i don't think we have anything like this in the Tips section yet.
i will update this post at least once a day.
anymore feedback appreciated. Thanks. cudn't do this without u guys.
Monkey
Master Don Juan
I've only just skim read most of the posts but there seems to be a lot of 'bad' advice on this topic!
Its her wish that she doesnt want sex before marriage, not becasue she doesnt love you, or doesnt find you attractive or any other reason, simply because thats what she wants.
You should either accept her wishes or leave.
How would you feel if you met a girl and she tried to convice you to change your religion. Probably insulted thats what!
I had a very simliar relationship, where we did every thing except penetration, and I also tried on a number of occasions to convince her that sex was a good idea - but this only made her angry and led to a number of rows which could have been avoided. We lasted for 1 1/2 years and split up due to other reasons.
All I'm saying is instead of trying to convince this girl around to your way of thinking, maybe you should respect her wishes and give her some credit for what she believes in.
Its her wish that she doesnt want sex before marriage, not becasue she doesnt love you, or doesnt find you attractive or any other reason, simply because thats what she wants.
You should either accept her wishes or leave.
How would you feel if you met a girl and she tried to convice you to change your religion. Probably insulted thats what!
I had a very simliar relationship, where we did every thing except penetration, and I also tried on a number of occasions to convince her that sex was a good idea - but this only made her angry and led to a number of rows which could have been avoided. We lasted for 1 1/2 years and split up due to other reasons.
All I'm saying is instead of trying to convince this girl around to your way of thinking, maybe you should respect her wishes and give her some credit for what she believes in.
~The_Chosen~
Master Don Juan
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Sure there, girls like that are selfish and have been brainwashed period.
They know they love sex, now what is the difference between oral, fingering, etc. and intercourse? I've fingered my girl, penetrated her, ate her out, popped her cherry, and stuck my penis in 1/2 inch into her.
You need to get her to think OUTSIDE the circle of brainwashing.
So you need marriage to have sex? I thought all you need is the love?
So are you saying you need an "official declaration" to have sex with someone? That's total BULLSH!T!
Or, she should accept your wishes (which are supported by the love, biology, etc.) or leave her and have sex with others. She'll come around eventually. She'll walk out that little circle of hers.
Then I would give logical and valid reasons to refute.
All my girl says is this: It's how I feel.
Whatever, why did she want to give it up to me when 6 months ago? She's been culturaly conditioned by her parents.
Who wants a sexually deprived person?
Look here, he has alot of logical reasons to have sex.
She doesn't. It's all about how SHE FEELS, not HIM.
------------------
~The_Chosen~ has spoken...
Judge a man by his questions and not his answers.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then is just not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
[This message has been edited by ~The_Chosen~ (edited 08-10-2002).]
Create self-fulfilling prophecies. Always assume the positive. Assume she likes you. Assume she wants to talk to you. Assume she wants to go out with you. When you think positive, positive things happen.
Quote taken from The SoSuave Guide to Women and Dating, which you can read for FREE.
I feel sorry for this girl. She is depriving herself of an experience that no amount of fingering, toys, or oral sex can replace--the experience of having a live penis inside of her. Everything I've ever heard from girls makes me sure that penetration, for them, feels completely different and often better than the rest of sex (pay no attention to the 'penetration is for the guy's fun only' feminist mafia). Now you KNOW that. Hell, that's what you have your dyck hanging there for, so it goes INSIDE, *not* so it dangles there while you finger her. Make sure she understands how good it would feel... get her to watch some porn with you, or just talk her into it. Watch some porn, act playful with her, joke around, "Hey, she sure looks like she's enjoying that!", etc. Man, if you get her aroused like that and you've been withholding sex... and she still doesn't push you all the way in, then forget her.
Master of the Universe
Senior Don Juan
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Okay, I'm a bit late to this thread, but I'm not surprised to see so many well thought out replies. For the record, I'll throw in my two-cents...
The problem here is that you are being putting WAY to much APPARENT energy into this situation. Now, there's nothing wrong with putting in as much energy as you wish, and in fact you should, but that should not be apparent.
By using overt force and ultimatums into trying to get her to give up the puzzy, you only serve to further reinforce the importance of her virginity. For example, you have now added much drama and attention into her life... girls LOVE that. By having sex with you now, she only loses all the extra attention (whether it's positive or negative isn't important) you've been investing in her recently.
So what, oh what, should you do?
For starters, forget all those ultimatums... anything that's verbalized loses power. If you want to threaten to break up with her, then do so by action: spend less time with her, cut phone calls sooner, start talking with other girls (especially girls who have a reputation). She'll get the hint with a force that's much more powerful than anything you can say.
My Aikido instructor always tells us, "Never go force against force." So, what you want to do, is ALLOW HER to desire to have sex with you. By you forcing the subject so much, you never give her the opportunity to actually want to have sex.
Here are a few strategies for getting her to WANT to have sex with you. Some may be appropriate for you, others may not. Choose those you feel more comfortable with. And by the way, these strategies are cumulative... the more the use simultaneously, the better the result:
1) Tease her: Next time the two of you are making out, get her pretty close to climax, and then stop. Tell her you're not in the mood, or you just remembered you have to do something else, and then leave. Next time she expects the two of you to make out, only do some kissing, and don't take it any further. Repeat this cycle as necessary, only taking her to climax once in a while. Eventually, when the mixed messages have started to wear her down, one time you'll notice that she's more horny than normal, and then go all the way. Don't discuss it first, or any of that nonsense, just do it!
2) Create triangles: Start talking to other girls, knowing that she will find out about it. Make sure you talk to those girls who have a reputation. She'll know what she has to do to keep you. You remain friendly with her, and act as if everything is fine. Don't tell her you're talking to these girls, but at the same time don't hide it or be ashamed of it. Let her friends see you talking to other girls. The word will reach her fast, and it'll be a great blow to her vanity and self-esteem to think that another girl might take you away from her.
3) Use a red-herring: In any negotiation, both parties begin by asking things from the other that they know for a fact they'll never get. This is because it allows plenty of room for compromise. A skill that is frequently used with this, is that of the red-herring. A red-herring is used to throw the person off guard by making it seem like you want something else altogether, and when you finally toss it out, the other person will be happy to accept what you had wanted all along.
For example, with your chick, you shouldn't be making it known that you want sex from her. Instead, take it a notch or two higher. Tell her you want anal, or something to that degree... something you know she would never agree to. Keep on pursuing that for a while. Eventually, she'll either offer you sex as a fair compromise, or when you eventually suggest sex instead of anal, she'll gladly jump on the situation since by contrast, it is such a more desirable request. Just make sure you don't "give in" too soon. You want to give her the impression that you had to "settle" for sex. This will allow you to get what you want, while at the same giving her the illusion that she was the one that outsmarted you.
4) Offer a challenge: Many girls respond to challenges very well. With these girls, saying something like, "You're right, we shouldn't have sex, you probably wouldn't know what to do anyway," really eats them up. They'll go out of their way to prove to you that they know exactly what to do. If you're girl is one that responds well to challenges (and most younger girls fit that category), you might want to use this approach.
5) Use negation: This strategy is based on one from Ross Jeffries, creator of SS. As you are kissing her, say to her, "You know, this is probably against your values (or religion, or whatever)... we really shouldn't be doing this," while doing it. Then, "And I probably shouldn't be slipping my hands under your blouse and fondling your breasts," while again doing exactly that. "And for sure you shouldn't feel a jolt of electricity rushing through your spine as I slide my finger into your puzzy," while still doing it. Then the big one, "And there's no way you should imagine the intense, wonderful, rush as I come deep, deep, inside you," while sticking in your d*ck. (Just make sure you use a rubber).
In closing, I would like to leave you with these words from Ninon de l'Enclos, one of the greatest seductresses in history...
"Have you ever heard of a skillful general, who intends to surprise a citadel, announce his design to the enemy upon whom the storm is to descend? In love as in war, does any one ever ask the victor whether he owes his success to force or skill? He has conquered, he receives the crown, his desires are gratified, he is happy. Follow his example and you will meet the same fate. Hide your progress; do not disclose the extent of your designs until it is no longer possible to oppose your success, until the combat is over, and the victory gained before you have declared war. In a word, imitate those warlike people whose designs are not known, except by the ravaged country through which they have passed."
Master of the Universe
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"Fortune favors the bold." - Virgil
"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week." - General George S. Patton
"He was better. But he thought I was finished, with only one arm. He never understood. You surrender after you’re dead." - Lan Mandragoran, The Wheel of Time
[This message has been edited by Master of the Universe (edited 08-10-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Master of the Universe (edited 08-11-2002).]
The problem here is that you are being putting WAY to much APPARENT energy into this situation. Now, there's nothing wrong with putting in as much energy as you wish, and in fact you should, but that should not be apparent.
By using overt force and ultimatums into trying to get her to give up the puzzy, you only serve to further reinforce the importance of her virginity. For example, you have now added much drama and attention into her life... girls LOVE that. By having sex with you now, she only loses all the extra attention (whether it's positive or negative isn't important) you've been investing in her recently.
So what, oh what, should you do?
For starters, forget all those ultimatums... anything that's verbalized loses power. If you want to threaten to break up with her, then do so by action: spend less time with her, cut phone calls sooner, start talking with other girls (especially girls who have a reputation). She'll get the hint with a force that's much more powerful than anything you can say.
My Aikido instructor always tells us, "Never go force against force." So, what you want to do, is ALLOW HER to desire to have sex with you. By you forcing the subject so much, you never give her the opportunity to actually want to have sex.
Here are a few strategies for getting her to WANT to have sex with you. Some may be appropriate for you, others may not. Choose those you feel more comfortable with. And by the way, these strategies are cumulative... the more the use simultaneously, the better the result:
1) Tease her: Next time the two of you are making out, get her pretty close to climax, and then stop. Tell her you're not in the mood, or you just remembered you have to do something else, and then leave. Next time she expects the two of you to make out, only do some kissing, and don't take it any further. Repeat this cycle as necessary, only taking her to climax once in a while. Eventually, when the mixed messages have started to wear her down, one time you'll notice that she's more horny than normal, and then go all the way. Don't discuss it first, or any of that nonsense, just do it!
2) Create triangles: Start talking to other girls, knowing that she will find out about it. Make sure you talk to those girls who have a reputation. She'll know what she has to do to keep you. You remain friendly with her, and act as if everything is fine. Don't tell her you're talking to these girls, but at the same time don't hide it or be ashamed of it. Let her friends see you talking to other girls. The word will reach her fast, and it'll be a great blow to her vanity and self-esteem to think that another girl might take you away from her.
3) Use a red-herring: In any negotiation, both parties begin by asking things from the other that they know for a fact they'll never get. This is because it allows plenty of room for compromise. A skill that is frequently used with this, is that of the red-herring. A red-herring is used to throw the person off guard by making it seem like you want something else altogether, and when you finally toss it out, the other person will be happy to accept what you had wanted all along.
For example, with your chick, you shouldn't be making it known that you want sex from her. Instead, take it a notch or two higher. Tell her you want anal, or something to that degree... something you know she would never agree to. Keep on pursuing that for a while. Eventually, she'll either offer you sex as a fair compromise, or when you eventually suggest sex instead of anal, she'll gladly jump on the situation since by contrast, it is such a more desirable request. Just make sure you don't "give in" too soon. You want to give her the impression that you had to "settle" for sex. This will allow you to get what you want, while at the same giving her the illusion that she was the one that outsmarted you.
4) Offer a challenge: Many girls respond to challenges very well. With these girls, saying something like, "You're right, we shouldn't have sex, you probably wouldn't know what to do anyway," really eats them up. They'll go out of their way to prove to you that they know exactly what to do. If you're girl is one that responds well to challenges (and most younger girls fit that category), you might want to use this approach.
5) Use negation: This strategy is based on one from Ross Jeffries, creator of SS. As you are kissing her, say to her, "You know, this is probably against your values (or religion, or whatever)... we really shouldn't be doing this," while doing it. Then, "And I probably shouldn't be slipping my hands under your blouse and fondling your breasts," while again doing exactly that. "And for sure you shouldn't feel a jolt of electricity rushing through your spine as I slide my finger into your puzzy," while still doing it. Then the big one, "And there's no way you should imagine the intense, wonderful, rush as I come deep, deep, inside you," while sticking in your d*ck. (Just make sure you use a rubber).
In closing, I would like to leave you with these words from Ninon de l'Enclos, one of the greatest seductresses in history...
"Have you ever heard of a skillful general, who intends to surprise a citadel, announce his design to the enemy upon whom the storm is to descend? In love as in war, does any one ever ask the victor whether he owes his success to force or skill? He has conquered, he receives the crown, his desires are gratified, he is happy. Follow his example and you will meet the same fate. Hide your progress; do not disclose the extent of your designs until it is no longer possible to oppose your success, until the combat is over, and the victory gained before you have declared war. In a word, imitate those warlike people whose designs are not known, except by the ravaged country through which they have passed."
Master of the Universe
------------------
"Fortune favors the bold." - Virgil
"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week." - General George S. Patton
"He was better. But he thought I was finished, with only one arm. He never understood. You surrender after you’re dead." - Lan Mandragoran, The Wheel of Time
[This message has been edited by Master of the Universe (edited 08-10-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Master of the Universe (edited 08-11-2002).]
Dark Templar, I'm glad you're keeping everyone posted with how it's going... that summary in the tips section is a great idea! This is a common situation for a lot of guys. It's great to see you using all the great advice here and taking appropriate action, instead of just alternating between the usual action taken by guys:
- desperatly begging for sex...
- and then getting snotty/sh!tty with the girl!
... every AFC I've seen in this situation has done this! It doesn't work.
MOU post above really sums things up really well! No matter how frustrating the situation gets (and it is frustrating!) try and avoid getting into debates with her... Let her know that you're now willing to lower yourself to that. Because YOU'RE too important! That is truly being a challenge. She will start to value you more. Afterall, she knows there are plenty of other girls out there
- desperatly begging for sex...
- and then getting snotty/sh!tty with the girl!
... every AFC I've seen in this situation has done this! It doesn't work.
MOU post above really sums things up really well! No matter how frustrating the situation gets (and it is frustrating!) try and avoid getting into debates with her... Let her know that you're now willing to lower yourself to that. Because YOU'RE too important! That is truly being a challenge. She will start to value you more. Afterall, she knows there are plenty of other girls out there
darktempler
Don Juan
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2002
- Messages
- 19
- Reaction score
- 0
***update***
i am seeing her tomorrow. will post after the date is over.
ground work i have done tonight in preperation for tomorrow:-
1)told her i am now HAPPY in this relationship as i have decided i no longer WANT a sexual relationship with her.(shows self control)
2)i told her i have LOST all sexual attraction for her. i no longer DESIRE sex with HER. (note the wording
)
3)i told her i am doing all the above becuase i WANT the relationship to work. i WANT to respect her beliefs and i am 100% happy doing that.
4) i REASONED this with her when she aguged AGAINST me doing this be saying having ANY kind of physical relationship not acceptable unless we went all the way otherwise, it would not be FAIR on me as it would result in TEASING and i'm not prepared to put up with that.
her response:-
it was of utter disbelief. she couldn't believe it. she TRIED to get out of it. she TRIED to say she wudn't bother sleeping over. LOL i said, i would still like to keep a EMOTIONAL connection with her. i still LIKED her emotionally.
i explained the importance how emotional satisfaction is JUST AS improtant as the physical one (hehe implying that she's gonna lose me if i don't get physical satisfaction at the same time).
she asked. what will we do when i sleep round then. i replied with "talk" "sleep" spend time with eachother. but no PHYSICAL stuff.
i know for a FACT she is NOT ok with this arrangment. as when i talk to her, she always brings it up. always saying she feels like i'm gonna cheat cos i don't find her attractive... LOL i CORRECT her and say i find her emotionally attractive still LOL!! and then she replies with as soon as someone comes along who will offer me the physical satisfaction, i will cheat... i reply with "let's not think about that now for noone can possibly predict what will happen in the future"
game play for tomorrow:-
CONSTANT teasing. i will PRETEND kiss her.. and then pull back.
i will slip my hand up her top.... and then pull back at the last minute.
the ONLY REAL kiss she is getting is a simply kiss on her forehead at the END of the date.
holding hands will be limited to ONCE OR TWICE on the date.
having arms round her will be followed by a "i don't feel right about this so i am not going to do it"
i WILL FLIRT with a friend who is comming with us to see a movie, big style. i will pay MORE attension with this girl than my gf. when she leaves i will ASK my gf about her (using jelousy).
~The_Chosen~:- i sense much bitterness in your post about the girl who u dated. did you use the DJ principles with her like the ones fellow DJ's are telling me now? did they work? but you are right..... they are SELFISH. all i am trying to do is make her COME AROUND. if this fails, i WILL finish with her as suggested... ONCE i have tried all the advice.i do not believe i won't beable to crack her little beliefs.
Vatican :- exactly spot on about the pleasure. but i don't think i can do the porn thing on her. i'll leave that as a last resort i this doesn't work.great SSing idea though. hopfully she won't be able to resist.
Master of the Universe :-hehe i hope my above plan intergrates most of your advice you've given there, all good stuff. u've added the idea of the RED HERRING... interesting.i will TRY and work that into the conversation tomorrow. watch this space!
negotiation sounds like a good idea, might slip in a pattern before i use what u mentioned though first.
Simon Iff putting all the advice i've had into a tip is the least i can do for all the great advice given on this post.
one phrase comes to mind that POOk once said. Patience is controling ones egerness... it's one of the most important.
i consider what i am doing a long term investment (3months and she will crack LOL).
if this goes well, i will go in for the KILL on the 16th, when i see her next after this.
**update in 24 hours**
i am seeing her tomorrow. will post after the date is over.
ground work i have done tonight in preperation for tomorrow:-
1)told her i am now HAPPY in this relationship as i have decided i no longer WANT a sexual relationship with her.(shows self control)
2)i told her i have LOST all sexual attraction for her. i no longer DESIRE sex with HER. (note the wording
3)i told her i am doing all the above becuase i WANT the relationship to work. i WANT to respect her beliefs and i am 100% happy doing that.
4) i REASONED this with her when she aguged AGAINST me doing this be saying having ANY kind of physical relationship not acceptable unless we went all the way otherwise, it would not be FAIR on me as it would result in TEASING and i'm not prepared to put up with that.
her response:-
it was of utter disbelief. she couldn't believe it. she TRIED to get out of it. she TRIED to say she wudn't bother sleeping over. LOL i said, i would still like to keep a EMOTIONAL connection with her. i still LIKED her emotionally.
i explained the importance how emotional satisfaction is JUST AS improtant as the physical one (hehe implying that she's gonna lose me if i don't get physical satisfaction at the same time).
she asked. what will we do when i sleep round then. i replied with "talk" "sleep" spend time with eachother. but no PHYSICAL stuff.
i know for a FACT she is NOT ok with this arrangment. as when i talk to her, she always brings it up. always saying she feels like i'm gonna cheat cos i don't find her attractive... LOL i CORRECT her and say i find her emotionally attractive still LOL!! and then she replies with as soon as someone comes along who will offer me the physical satisfaction, i will cheat... i reply with "let's not think about that now for noone can possibly predict what will happen in the future"
game play for tomorrow:-
CONSTANT teasing. i will PRETEND kiss her.. and then pull back.
i will slip my hand up her top.... and then pull back at the last minute.
the ONLY REAL kiss she is getting is a simply kiss on her forehead at the END of the date.
holding hands will be limited to ONCE OR TWICE on the date.
having arms round her will be followed by a "i don't feel right about this so i am not going to do it"
i WILL FLIRT with a friend who is comming with us to see a movie, big style. i will pay MORE attension with this girl than my gf. when she leaves i will ASK my gf about her (using jelousy).
~The_Chosen~:- i sense much bitterness in your post about the girl who u dated. did you use the DJ principles with her like the ones fellow DJ's are telling me now? did they work? but you are right..... they are SELFISH. all i am trying to do is make her COME AROUND. if this fails, i WILL finish with her as suggested... ONCE i have tried all the advice.i do not believe i won't beable to crack her little beliefs.
Vatican :- exactly spot on about the pleasure. but i don't think i can do the porn thing on her. i'll leave that as a last resort i this doesn't work.great SSing idea though. hopfully she won't be able to resist.
Master of the Universe :-hehe i hope my above plan intergrates most of your advice you've given there, all good stuff. u've added the idea of the RED HERRING... interesting.i will TRY and work that into the conversation tomorrow. watch this space!
negotiation sounds like a good idea, might slip in a pattern before i use what u mentioned though first.
Simon Iff putting all the advice i've had into a tip is the least i can do for all the great advice given on this post.
one phrase comes to mind that POOk once said. Patience is controling ones egerness... it's one of the most important.
i consider what i am doing a long term investment (3months and she will crack LOL).
if this goes well, i will go in for the KILL on the 16th, when i see her next after this.
**update in 24 hours**
~The_Chosen~
Master Don Juan
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2002
- Messages
- 889
- Reaction score
- 1
- Age
- 39
Bitterness? Fvck yea! I broke up with her for the 7th time and LAST. Key points with me and her are this:
- 1.5 year relationship
- Rules Girl (Don Juanita)
[*]LONG DISTANCE (4 hour drive away)
[*]We're both completely opposite
[*]Same situation as you
Yes, I use all the DJ principles possible, countering her Juanita principles. It was a very challenging relationship, we are both attractive and know we can get other guys/girls. She knew that, I knew that.
I hated the constant "brag wars" we have.
It was so intense, the fights, "wars," etc. our trust was falling apart. None of us would take the "AFC" scenario. Our fights made the relationship stronger, yet distanced us more. I really loved this girl, I could tell she loved me too. The thing is, we are both strong, we both tell each other we don't NEED a relationship to be happy, etc. etc. Then we would say, "what about our relationship? Is it worth it?" The fights start and we get even more distanced.
The sexual activities were great, but no sex. I should've used Master of the Universe's technique, RED HERRING. Too late now, but all the other techniques were done, teasing, showing her I could possible want physical attraction with another girl, etc.
Then since she is a Don Juanita, she would want to end the relationship. So I got fvckin frustrated, it's like b!tch! So I try to save it, invested into her, she doesn't give back. Then when she wasn't havin it, I dumped her and told her I lost all emotional and physical attraction for her. I never did love her, she thinks we did fall in love. But love is more about giving than taking. She gets really hurt to here all this and blah-blah, I just tell her "It's over, get over it, you don't need a relationship right baby? Let's just be friends, You would be MUCH BETTER off as my friend. And I honestly lost attraction for her.
She is hella pissed because I give her no attention, selfish girls can go to hell.
Goodluck with you girl, you aren't in a long distance relationship so the rules are different and it is much easier for you.
To put so much into someone, just to have them fail, investing majorly into a company just to see it fall...it really fvckin hurts...now I don't feel like ever "investing" again.
------------------
~The_Chosen~ has spoken...
Judge a man by his questions and not his answers.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then is just not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
Clever boy!
Definitely... make sure she still enjoys being around you and has fun. Especially right now, after you've made some serious changes to the relationship... Show her that you've made an improvement! She doesn't sound so keen about some of the changes. So, you need to make sure she can relax and have fun around you... and let her guard down! And take it easy and be subtle with the DJ techniques, if she smells something's up she'll get suspicious and everything you try, to bring her around, will be that much much harder...
Don't discuss relationship things with her too much (after all there not negotiable since you're in charge), be a little mysterious, and leave her guessing. You'll be much more in control if you keep your thoughts on a need to know basis. Let your actions do the talking.
For an example:
Imagine when you kiss a girl... if you were to tell her that you were going to kiss her, she would know exactly what was going to happen... And it would have a lot less powerful effect on her, wouldn't it?
Well, same goes for telling her about the new arrangements (of no oral etc)... It not only reduces the impact but gives her a chance to plan her counter offence. And she will have one! She's probably getting advice about what to do from her girlfriends as you read... be ready!
[This message has been edited by Simon Iff (edited 08-12-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Simon Iff (edited 08-12-2002).]
diplomatic_lies
Master Don Juan
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2002
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- 4,368
- Reaction score
- 8
Don't bother. Why waste time with her? I went with a girl of same state a while ago, and if she is VERY religous, she won't do it. Faith is often stronger than bullets
(or horniness)
Jake Steed
Master Don Juan
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2001
- Messages
- 865
- Reaction score
- 0
darktempler, I really think you're overdoing it and you're going to shoot yourself in the foot soon.
Here are some things you are doing wrong:
You have CHALLENGE mixed up with VALUE. VALUE is when you show her you have an awesome life. You demonstrate value by being excellent in her presence. Example: When she sees you play guitar in front of a really turned on crowd, or when she sees girls check you out in your souped up car you built yourself, or you show her a fun time, then are the life of a party--showing your friends a great time as well.
These are all examples of VALUE. Freddie Prinze Jr. has value in the eyes of your gf because he lives an exciting life. He's a movie star with tons of money, cars, high status friends, and high status himself. That's VALUE.
Once you've demonstrated value, once she's hooked on your value, THEN YOU CAN INTRODUCE CHALLENGE. You think by being a challenge, you will somehow magically make her see your value. WRONG. DON'T GET THESE CONCEPTS MIXED UP. Work on demonstrating value FIRST (which takes time), then subtly take some of your attention away so she feels the need to have you back. SHE SHOULD NOT NOTICE YOU'VE DONE ANYTHING TO HER. SHE SHOULD ONLY FEEL A YEARNING FOR YOU.
This brings me to my next point. MOTU is right. Right now, you're spending way too much apparent energy on her. STOP VERBALIZING EVERYTHING.
1)told her i am now HAPPY in this relationship as i have decided i no longer WANT a sexual relationship with her.(shows self control)
2)i told her i have LOST all sexual attraction for her. i no longer DESIRE sex with HER. (note the wording )
3)i told her i am doing all the above becuase i WANT the relationship to work. i WANT to respect her beliefs and i am 100% happy doing that.
WRONG MOVE. Don't TELL her anything. Don't verbalize anything. Subtly show her these points through ACTION. She should not sense you are playing any games on her. She should only feel intense feelings of desire for you (VALUE) and feelings of frustration and longing (CHALLENGE). SHE SHOULD NOT KNOW YOUR GAME PLAN!!!
Red Flag: she went TOTALLY emotional on me and TOLD me to break up with her cos she can't break up with me.
This is the beginning of the end. You put too much pressure on her, you verballized things too much and invested too much apparent energy into getting her in bed. This pushed her away. Mark my words, when a girl says the above statement, it's over.
You pressureing her is the EXACT shyt she was told she would get from the "bad" boyfriend who "just wants her for sex". You are putting yourself in this role. She is going to react by bolting. The only way you can salvage this is if you chill on all your pressure tactics immediately. You need to be WAY more subtle.
I was originally supportive of you cutting off physical contact. I have to ammend my advice. Don't cut off all physical contact. If you do, it will be obvious you are trying to play a childish game. You should basically follow MOTUs advice and work on making her really turned on to you and pulling away right before sex, then next time, going for the sex.
Jake
Here are some things you are doing wrong:
You have CHALLENGE mixed up with VALUE. VALUE is when you show her you have an awesome life. You demonstrate value by being excellent in her presence. Example: When she sees you play guitar in front of a really turned on crowd, or when she sees girls check you out in your souped up car you built yourself, or you show her a fun time, then are the life of a party--showing your friends a great time as well.
These are all examples of VALUE. Freddie Prinze Jr. has value in the eyes of your gf because he lives an exciting life. He's a movie star with tons of money, cars, high status friends, and high status himself. That's VALUE.
Once you've demonstrated value, once she's hooked on your value, THEN YOU CAN INTRODUCE CHALLENGE. You think by being a challenge, you will somehow magically make her see your value. WRONG. DON'T GET THESE CONCEPTS MIXED UP. Work on demonstrating value FIRST (which takes time), then subtly take some of your attention away so she feels the need to have you back. SHE SHOULD NOT NOTICE YOU'VE DONE ANYTHING TO HER. SHE SHOULD ONLY FEEL A YEARNING FOR YOU.
This brings me to my next point. MOTU is right. Right now, you're spending way too much apparent energy on her. STOP VERBALIZING EVERYTHING.
1)told her i am now HAPPY in this relationship as i have decided i no longer WANT a sexual relationship with her.(shows self control)
2)i told her i have LOST all sexual attraction for her. i no longer DESIRE sex with HER. (note the wording )
3)i told her i am doing all the above becuase i WANT the relationship to work. i WANT to respect her beliefs and i am 100% happy doing that.
WRONG MOVE. Don't TELL her anything. Don't verbalize anything. Subtly show her these points through ACTION. She should not sense you are playing any games on her. She should only feel intense feelings of desire for you (VALUE) and feelings of frustration and longing (CHALLENGE). SHE SHOULD NOT KNOW YOUR GAME PLAN!!!
Red Flag: she went TOTALLY emotional on me and TOLD me to break up with her cos she can't break up with me.
This is the beginning of the end. You put too much pressure on her, you verballized things too much and invested too much apparent energy into getting her in bed. This pushed her away. Mark my words, when a girl says the above statement, it's over.
You pressureing her is the EXACT shyt she was told she would get from the "bad" boyfriend who "just wants her for sex". You are putting yourself in this role. She is going to react by bolting. The only way you can salvage this is if you chill on all your pressure tactics immediately. You need to be WAY more subtle.
I was originally supportive of you cutting off physical contact. I have to ammend my advice. Don't cut off all physical contact. If you do, it will be obvious you are trying to play a childish game. You should basically follow MOTUs advice and work on making her really turned on to you and pulling away right before sex, then next time, going for the sex.
Jake
Monkey
Master Don Juan
The bottom line is -
A woman will ONLY have sex with you when SHE decides to!
And if you convince her to do it earlier than she wants then she'll probably end up feeling bad about herself and resent you.
A woman will ONLY have sex with you when SHE decides to!
And if you convince her to do it earlier than she wants then she'll probably end up feeling bad about herself and resent you.
Jake,
Remember before, we talked about challenge, and how I said that I had a problem with waiting 7 days to call, calling only once in awhile, remaining rather distant? I said that if she just met you, then she doesn't know how you are to begin with, challenge doesn't work because she literally doesn't know what she is missing, she might assume "that's just how he is". The rollercoaster method?
Your last post summed up EXACTLY what I was talking about. Value. I couldn't put it into words for you to understand what I meant.
This was my main problem with Doc Love's "system". He preached challenge, challenge, challenge...but challenge means nothing if a woman doesn't know what she is being challenged by. If you just met a woman last week, and decide that you want to deprive her of your presence to be a "challenge", then it's going to be basically ineffective. She doesn't know enough about you to see the value in you, therefore the challenge is ineffective.
Sorry to get off topic guys, just something I wanted to address..
-Blitz
Remember before, we talked about challenge, and how I said that I had a problem with waiting 7 days to call, calling only once in awhile, remaining rather distant? I said that if she just met you, then she doesn't know how you are to begin with, challenge doesn't work because she literally doesn't know what she is missing, she might assume "that's just how he is". The rollercoaster method?
Your last post summed up EXACTLY what I was talking about. Value. I couldn't put it into words for you to understand what I meant.
This was my main problem with Doc Love's "system". He preached challenge, challenge, challenge...but challenge means nothing if a woman doesn't know what she is being challenged by. If you just met a woman last week, and decide that you want to deprive her of your presence to be a "challenge", then it's going to be basically ineffective. She doesn't know enough about you to see the value in you, therefore the challenge is ineffective.
Sorry to get off topic guys, just something I wanted to address..
-Blitz
