Looks are the most important thing (Ditto)

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Just a Shot Away

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Tesl said:
I see, so what you are admitting now is they never actually said that. Okay, seems we are making some progress at least.
Right. You never explicitly said that you're not actually from Betelgeuse 5, only here on Earth to strike an intergalactic peace deal with Hitler's cryogenically preserved head and the secret race of shapeshifting Reptilians living among us, which means that there is still a possibility. Not everything has to be said explicitly, man. That would get annoying QUICK. "Hi, I'd like a Venti Caramel Macchiato please....and it'd be awesome if you don't take it to the back and fill the cup up with filthy mop water before you make it."

That you consider yourself a scientist is hilarious - given a lack of willingness to listen to any other side of an argument. That's far more in line with an indoctrinated christian, my friend.
Well, there's no argument. I've stated the facts, and you and a handful of other posters have a BIG problem with them. I also don't entertain the idea that the facts should be rescinded since you and your friends come to me with zero data, zero research, and zero evidence of your own position save for "Oh, well there's this ONE chick at this ONE party that said..."

1 -> 2) Though looks may not help with survival day to day, they do indicate a level of health as well as being from a decent gene pool. Those that can not regulate their own weight would be less likely to survive and be less attractive, likewise those who suffer from disabilities that make their faces lose their symmetry (as zekko pointed out earlier).
What zekko said was cute, but if it were true then any person (including Lyle Lovett) fits the criteria of facial symmetry. It's quite uncommon for a person to have a disability that screws with their facial symmetry on that severe of a level, relatively.

Even if its not the main thing, that a girl has the capability to say A is more attractive than B implies that evolution kept that ability there.
That's the first interesting point I've seen your side make in a long time. I'll have to ponder that one today.


2 -> 3) Darwins theory is all about survival of the fittest, and appearance may or may not be an important part of that. Unless you can show otherwise, I'm not sure Darwin ever got into an argument about just how important looks are. No evidence that he agrees with you whatsoever, hence your logic fails at this step too.
Darwin's theories live on in today's research. All of our knowledge of evolutionary biology roots back to Darwin. Although he may have only set the groundwork, he is directly responsible for scientists becoming aware that looks don't matter to women.

3 -> 4) This is obviously just a nonsensical conclusion. Just as nonsensical as coming onto a message board and saying that 72 nobel prize winners are all agreeing with you. With no proof, or evidence. As usual.
I'm not saying they agree with EVERYTHING I say, but the most fundamental ideas? Of course. They are universally accepted throughout the scientific community. Also, if you think I'm going to go through each NPW one by one and show you the data on their Nobel Prize and the exact date that they endorsed the theory of evolution, you are very much mistaken. You can cry "no proof! no evidence!" all day long. You won't bait me into undertaking that hour-long task.

4 -> 5) As you wont go back previous steps and look at your own (terrible) deductive logic, people just assume you are autistic and have mental issues.
Of course. These are people that think looks matter, and therefore live in a different reality than everybody else. It makes perfect sense that anybody who is aware of the facts must have some sort of childhood disorder that has rendered them unable to function. This in itself makes no sense, of course, and shows a remarkable lack of understanding of medicine, but fits like a glove with the rest of their baseless ideological views.

Or in short: You speak complete nonsense without being able to backup anything you say. I've never seen anyone quite so dominated on an internet forum before.
I've backed up everything I've said. You think it bothers me that 5-6 guys on the Internet disagree with science? Please. I have Linus f.ucking Pauling backing me on this. How much do you think Falcon "good-looking guys have to smile, show up, and say hi" 25 affects my stance?
 

Jeffst1980

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Jeez, I hate to see this kind of mudslinging on this site. Same team, guys! It's only the internet, for crying out loud. No reason to get personal.

Here's the skinny on looks:

Of course, looks matter to some degree, but they are not NEARLY as important as the OP suggests. Like most things in pickup, it depends on the context. If you are at a meat market-type dance club, they are going to be more important, because that's the sole criteria on which women can judge strangers in that environment. If you are at a yoga class, however, you won't have as much competition and you can "get away" with slightly below average looks, provided you can compensate for them with a compelling personality and game.

To assert that looks triumph every time is silly, because that would be far too easy. Guys would not waste their time creating great things and building empires to get girls; they'd go shopping for shoes and scour magazines for tips to elongate their figures. Worrying excessively about your appearance is a feminine trait, and such insecurities will turn women off.

There are a lot of factors at play when it comes to attraction, looks being but one of many. I've stolen girls from more attractive but dull guys, and had girls stolen from me by less attractive guys with exceptional social status. You can argue that a woman isn't really "attracted" to the wealthy CEO if he isn't physically handsome, but that's because you're projecting the male attraction triggers onto a female. If he's a powerful, masculine force, she will literally be OVERCOME with attraction for such a man. Think of a mob boss--you think they have trouble getting women? It's less to do with looks than with masculine/ feminine polarity.

Now, when the OP says that a woman PERSONALLY finds a below average guy attractive--this is sort of a case of backwards rationalization. In other words, she's attracted to him DESPITE his below average looks because of mitigating factors such as game, social status, etc. But, rather than acknowledge this, she'll say things like, "he has the prettiest eyes" or, "I love his smile." Really, it's a bit of courtesy--who wants their girlfriend to call them ugly? But yes, women will usually agree on the attractiveness of STRANGERS.

Looks matter the most for guys at the extremes of the bell curve- the exceptionally attractive and the exceptionally ugly. But, since they are in the extreme minority by definition, it's not really helpful to consider their plights on sites like this one. In general, the less attractive you are physically, the more you must compensate in other areas to stay competitive with the naturally attractive. But, this is not to say the good looking get a "free lunch." A lot of very good looking guys are so used to being approached that they NEVER learn to take the lead, and wind up settling for far less attractive girls. 6s and 7s will approach good looking men because it gives them an ego boost. HB10s will REQUIRE men to lead them, and attractive guys with little game will be filtered out.

Lastly, as far the Darwinian argument that women favor the strongest men: evolutionary needs have changed since the days of proto-humans, and the need for physically strong men is no longer as valuable as it once was. These days, the real estate mogul wields MUCH more social status than the construction worker he employs. You are welcome to argue that Donald Trump's hot wives are all just gold diggers (although most were already wealthy to begin with), but obviously they were attracted to him enough to want to have his children, which seems to be the litmus test for attraction among evolutionary psychologists.

Beyond staying in shape and not dressing poorly, a man's looks should be an afterthought. Concentrate on the attribute you have control over, and leave looking pretty to the women.
 

zekko

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What zekko said was cute, but if it were true then any person (including Lyle Lovett) fits the criteria of facial symmetry. It's quite uncommon for a person to have a disability that screws with their facial symmetry on that severe of a level, relatively.
If facial symmetry is NOT indicative of health (as you seem to maintain), then WHY are males attracted to women with symmetrical features? WHY are males attracted to "good looks" period if they are not an indication of health? Fact is, men are attracted to good looking women because good looks are indicators of a healthy woman able to carry his seed.

Similarly, women will also be attracted to healthy (good looking) men, although looks are not as important in this case because there are also other factors that make males attractive. But a healthy male is good gene stock, and a healthy male can provide for the nest.

Even among women though, facial symmetry is just one part of good looks. Men are also attracted to large breasts and a certain body shape, for obvious reasons.

Looks matter the most for guys at the extremes of the bell curve- the exceptionally attractive and the exceptionally ugly. But, since they are in the extreme minority by definition, it's not really helpful to consider their plights on sites like this one. In general, the less attractive you are physically, the more you must compensate in other areas to stay competitive with the naturally attractive.
That makes sense.
 

TIC

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Jeffst1980 said:
You can argue that a woman isn't really "attracted" to the wealthy CEO if he isn't physically handsome, but that's because you're projecting the male attraction triggers onto a female. If he's a powerful, masculine force, she will literally be OVERCOME with attraction for such a man. Think of a mob boss--you think they have trouble getting women? It's less to do with looks than with masculine/ feminine polarity.
I don't like this line of thinking. This may be true, but how well does it apply?

What percentage of guys are CEO's/mob bosses/ super wealthy/ powerful in any way? About 2% of the population. And only about 6% of males make even 6 figures....so basically what your arguing doesn't apply to most men

None of us here are CEO's or are famous. We are not rich or powerful. The system is not set up so many people can achieve this status.

So next time someone brings up the looks issue, leave the wealthy/powerful argument out of the discussion as it doesn't apply to the VAST majority of men
 

zekko

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What percentage of guys are CEO's/mob bosses/ super wealthy/ powerful in any way? About 2% of the population. And only about 6% of males make even 6 figures....so basically what your arguing doesn't apply to most men
Well yeah, but that's what makes them high value. The highest value guys are always going to be rare by definition.
 

Trader

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Jeffst1980 said:
Jeez, I hate to see this kind of mudslinging on this site. Same team, guys! It's only the internet, for crying out loud. No reason to get personal.

Here's the skinny on looks:

Of course, looks matter to some degree, but they are not NEARLY as important as the OP suggests. Like most things in pickup, it depends on the context. If you are at a meat market-type dance club, they are going to be more important, because that's the sole criteria on which women can judge strangers in that environment. If you are at a yoga class, however, you won't have as much competition and you can "get away" with slightly below average looks, provided you can compensate for them with a compelling personality and game.

To assert that looks triumph every time is silly, because that would be far too easy. Guys would not waste their time creating great things and building empires to get girls; they'd go shopping for shoes and scour magazines for tips to elongate their figures. Worrying excessively about your appearance is a feminine trait, and such insecurities will turn women off.

There are a lot of factors at play when it comes to attraction, looks being but one of many. I've stolen girls from more attractive but dull guys, and had girls stolen from me by less attractive guys with exceptional social status. You can argue that a woman isn't really "attracted" to the wealthy CEO if he isn't physically handsome, but that's because you're projecting the male attraction triggers onto a female. If he's a powerful, masculine force, she will literally be OVERCOME with attraction for such a man. Think of a mob boss--you think they have trouble getting women? It's less to do with looks than with masculine/ feminine polarity.

Now, when the OP says that a woman PERSONALLY finds a below average guy attractive--this is sort of a case of backwards rationalization. In other words, she's attracted to him DESPITE his below average looks because of mitigating factors such as game, social status, etc. But, rather than acknowledge this, she'll say things like, "he has the prettiest eyes" or, "I love his smile." Really, it's a bit of courtesy--who wants their girlfriend to call them ugly? But yes, women will usually agree on the attractiveness of STRANGERS.

Looks matter the most for guys at the extremes of the bell curve- the exceptionally attractive and the exceptionally ugly. But, since they are in the extreme minority by definition, it's not really helpful to consider their plights on sites like this one. In general, the less attractive you are physically, the more you must compensate in other areas to stay competitive with the naturally attractive. But, this is not to say the good looking get a "free lunch." A lot of very good looking guys are so used to being approached that they NEVER learn to take the lead, and wind up settling for far less attractive girls. 6s and 7s will approach good looking men because it gives them an ego boost. HB10s will REQUIRE men to lead them, and attractive guys with little game will be filtered out.

Lastly, as far the Darwinian argument that women favor the strongest men: evolutionary needs have changed since the days of proto-humans, and the need for physically strong men is no longer as valuable as it once was. These days, the real estate mogul wields MUCH more social status than the construction worker he employs. You are welcome to argue that Donald Trump's hot wives are all just gold diggers (although most were already wealthy to begin with), but obviously they were attracted to him enough to want to have his children, which seems to be the litmus test for attraction among evolutionary psychologists.

Beyond staying in shape and not dressing poorly, a man's looks should be an afterthought. Concentrate on the attribute you have control over, and leave looking pretty to the women.
Agreed, repped, end of thread
 
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Mods - why not just open up the "looks" thread in the archives rather than de-centralizing these arguments?
 

Jeffst1980

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TIC said:
I don't like this line of thinking. This may be true, but how well does it apply?

What percentage of guys are CEO's/mob bosses/ super wealthy/ powerful in any way? About 2% of the population. And only about 6% of males make even 6 figures....so basically what your arguing doesn't apply to most men

None of us here are CEO's or are famous. We are not rich or powerful. The system is not set up so many people can achieve this status.

So next time someone brings up the looks issue, leave the wealthy/powerful argument out of the discussion as it doesn't apply to the VAST majority of men
I'm using a modern archetype to demonstrate a point about masculinity. When we picture a CEO or mob boss, we associate certain traits with them. These are the traits that are attractive to women. Why? Individuals possessing these traits are more likely to acquire high social status and wealth. You don't see too many weak, passive, and shy CEOs.

Fame, social status, and wealth are relative terms, as well. You can have high status among your social circle without being a national celebrity, and that will be sufficient to earn attraction from the females in your circle. The idea of self-improvement is to focus on developing the traits that will allow you to become a high status male among the population with whom you regularly interact, since extravagant wealth and fame is out of the reach of most.
 

Alle_Gory

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Just a Shot Away said:
Both of those men are greater than I will ever be. I'm just illustrating the similar situation of people telling those who fight for the truth to just "shut up."
For a guy fighting for the truth, you sure make up alot of factless bullsh*t.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go fvck for virginity. I believe in it. :rolleyes:

Where are you from, by the way?
It's right under my name. TDot is slang.

I've also only stated facts here.
Opinion. Facts are backed up with supporting evidence. There is none. Post some evidence or "shut up" with the pseudoscience.

The fact that women look for traits in males that indicate he will provide healthy offspring is experimentally determined to be true, and facial symmetry was not included in this criteria.
Women like men with certain facial features because they indicate health. For example, http://www.flickr.com/photos/pierre_tourigny/146532556/

Check out what the average face looks like for these chicks. The average face is attractive. Same goes for men, average features are attractive. Features lying on the outskirts of the bellcurve usually mean there is something wrong with the individual. Misaligned jaw (asymmetrical face), weird looking eyes due to some kind of disease, pasty skin due to some kind of infection.... etc.

This is why physical features are attractive, they indicate health.

With the chart I posted, notice the difference between the average face and the lowest rated face? The lowest rated one looks gross because of the extra fat. Not very healthy and definitely on the low, low end of the bellcurve.
 

Forty0ztoFreedom

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So this has all largely been based on semantics ("looks" vs "appearance"). Unbelievable. There are guys out there fooling themselves and feeling hopeless and frustrated because of this crap. The idea that looks (ie, APPEARANCE) is not a factor needs to be eliminated. Its harmful and misleading.

I'm of the belief that it mostly comes down to 'value.' Bad looks lessen value tremendously. If you're rich/famous, obviously this can be offset.

But even there, there is such a thing as "bad looking" vs "good looking" no matter what and the GOOD LOOKING rich/famous guy will win.

So, looks matter.
 

Just a Shot Away

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Forty0ztoFreedom said:
The idea that looks (ie, APPEARANCE) is not a factor needs to be eliminated. Its harmful and misleading.
Yes!! All posters who are not good-looking need to leave this site now. They are FVCKED! The DJ Bible won't help them, game won't help them, they're just hopeless. In fact, there should be some sort of verification system to make sure that new posters are at least a 7 before joining.

But even there, there is such a thing as "bad looking" vs "good looking" no matter what and the GOOD LOOKING rich/famous guy will win.

So, looks matter.
Absolutely man. Since you said that looks matter, this obviously MUST mean that looks matter. Therefore, I own your ass.
 
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