Limit biceps while working lats

[MetalFortress]

Originally posted by RaWBLooD
it is improper form, pins and a power rack are used to "begin the lift at a higher point"

Want to prove that it's not good form?

 

[Lifeforce]

Originally posted by RaWBLooD
it is improper form, pins and a power rack are used to "begin the lift at a higher point"

When you compete at a power meet you need all the extra power you can muster, rolling the shoulders forward just a little will help the lift. It is not improper form, I have used it without problem.

 

[Lifeforce]

Originally posted by RaWBLooD
damn right about straps, you will surely impede your progress if you think forearms are gonna be able to hold the kind of weight you can handle on deadlifts and shrugs for more than 1 or 2 reps.

That's what static holds are for.

 

[RaWBLooD]

Originally posted by Lifeforce
In my case that is not true, I've noticed growth in traps and erectors, very little lat improvement before I started being very serious about the lat training. Allthough it's such a heavy weight so you are correct it works the entire body in some way.

yes wait till you lift even heavier.

 

[RaWBLooD]

Originally posted by Lifeforce
That's what static holds are for.

a form of forearm development, wich cant begin to compete with all the other muscles involved working together.

 

[RaWBLooD]

Originally posted by Lifeforce
When you compete at a power meet you need all the extra power you can muster, rolling the shoulders forward just a little will help the lift. It is not improper form, I have used it without problem.

Maybe im not clear what you mean by "rolling the shoulders forward" i see that as arching your upper back forward, this would not be a good idea to do in a meet, i think you are speaking of the neutral position and the correct way of lifting in wich case theres no rolling to be done.

 

[MetalFortress]

Originally posted by RaWBLooD
a form of forearm development, wich cant begin to compete with all the other muscles involved working together.

No, the static holds are done to strengthen the forearms so they can handle all of the reps. Start paying attention.

 

[Lifeforce]

Originally posted by MetalFortress
No, the static holds are done to strengthen the forearms so they can handle all of the reps. Start paying attention.

he's trolling don't pay him any attention.

 

[RaWBLooD]

Originally posted by MetalFortress
No, the static holds are done to strengthen the forearms so they can handle all of the reps. Start paying attention.

yes as in my quote; a form of forearm development.

 

[CrizzleGA]

Guys what do you think about power cleans? They are the same thing as deadlifts but with a couple more movements, I think? I am not sure but am curious about yall's opinions on that exercise vs deadlifts

 

[RaWBLooD]

Originally posted by CrizzleGA
Guys what do you think about power cleans? They are the same thing as deadlifts but with a couple more movements, I think? I am not sure but am curious about yall's opinions on that exercise vs deadlifts

powercleans are great. If you have someone to see your form and help you perfect it, go for it. Very good mass and strength builder.

 

[semag]

power cleans are good, but very very hard to get the form on and keep it consistent and perfect, especially if you're going for high weight. Just stick with deads and when you get stuck at 500-600 lb deads... then we'll talk about powercleans.

 

[Sweetcheeks]

Cut out the disrespect.

There are a few guys on this forum who seem to me to be very knowledgeable on the subject of strength training. They know much more than I do, and I am willing to defer to them.

I'd like to say that for those who have respectfully contributed to this site, thank you. Whether I agree with your opinions or not, I appreciate the positive spirit in which your advice has been offered.

Please don't stop posting because of a few abusive children.

I'm not an expert and I don't claim to be, but I HAVE been strength training for 15 years (since I was 14 years old) and do a lot of reading on the subject. I also have a Kinesiology degree from a well-respected University in Canada (look it up if you kids don't know the word K-I-N-E-S-I-O-L-O-G-Y).

I'm sure more than a few people have much more impressive legitimate qualifications.

I don't understand how some of the 18-20 year olds who:

-may have been lifting (likely IMPROPERLY) for maybe 1-2 years (if that)
-learned most of what they know from commercial bodybuilding magazine articles written by juice monkeys
-do 1/4 reps and brag about the weights they lift
-strut around with their chests puffed out (called FALSE LAT SYNDROME)

feel like they have the right to DISRESPECT people who have PAID THEIR DUES and are taking their valuable time to help others out.

Some of these guys are PUNKS.

I'm here to learn, and I take issue with those who are here to pound their chests and put others down. No one here claims to be GOD, and for all we know, all this info could be obsolete next year.

With attitudes like this, maybe it's no wonder why some guys have trouble with women.

 

[Sweetcheeks]

My claim the latissimus dorsi muscles are the prime extensors of the lower back

I didn't come up with this claim on my own. At the suggestion of my employers at the Toronto Western Hospital, for whom I was working at the time as a Kinesiologist in their Chronic Pain Management Program, I attended a full day seminar back in March of 2001 at the Sheraton Hotel ballroom in Mississauga on LOWER BACK FUNCTION held by this guy:

(from the University of Waterloo web site)
____________________________________________________

Stuart M. McGill
Professor and Department Chair
Cross appointment with Mechanical Engineering
BPE (Toronto), MSc (Ottawa), PhD (Waterloo)
Director, Spine Biomechanics Laboratory
Appointments at:
- Institute of Medical Science, University of Toronto
- Southern California University of Health Sciences

Contact:
Office: BMH 3030
Telephone: 519-888-4567, ext. 6761
e-mail: mcgill@healthy.uwaterloo.ca
FAX: 519-746-6776

Research:
Our research in the Spine Biomechanics Laboratory has three objectives: to understand how the low back functions; to understand how it becomes injured; and, knowing this, formulate and investigate hypotheses related to prevention of injury and optimal rehabilitation of the injured back, and ultimate performance of the athletic back.

We have two separate laboratory approaches - one which examines intact humans which utilizes a rather unique approach that monitors spine motion and body segment position, muscle activation, ligament involvement and modelling tissue loading in each individual subject; and a second approach where we examine the mechanical behaviour of low back tissues and spine specimens. Our graduate students have been involved in several issues such as investigating the load tolerance of the spine under various types of load, assessment of spine stability, examination of devices such as abdominal belts, examination of various injury mechanisms and determining the safest methods of achieving performance in the back, to name a few.

This work has been recognized with may awards including the R. Tait McKenzie Award 2005, the CSB Career Award 2004, the Stow visiting lectureship from the Ohio State University College of Medicine 2002, the Steven Rose Lectures from the Washington University School of Medicine 2001, to name a few.

Preparing Leaders: Virtually all of the graduate students from the Spine Biomechanics Laboratory land exciting careers. Many are recruited as faculty members, and some become ergonomists or take various clinical positions.

For further information about my research please visit my Research Home Page or the Spine Biomechanics Laboratory .

Professor McGill currently serves on the editorial board for the journals Clinical Biomechanics, Applied Biomechanics and Spine.

____________________________________________________

Those are his qualifications. MAYBE a few if you guys know more about how the lower back works than this guy, but I'd bet my left nut (Hell, I'd bet both nuts) that you don't.

Anyway, Dr. McGill told us (the attendees) that back when he was a graduate student, he and another student were doing electrical muscle stimulation work on human cadavers to investigate muscle innervation patterns.

They first attached the electrical leads to the cadaver's spinal erector muscles (with the cadaver in a prone position). They gave it juice, and the body twitched a bit. They expected a far more substantial reaction. They checked the connections, confirmed the attachment, and gave it juice again, same result.

After some thought, they decided to try attaching the leads to the lattisumus dorsi muscles. This time, when they gave the cadaver juice, the corpse damn near bucked itself off the table. The two researchers freaked out and spent half a minute struggling to wrestle the corpse down until one of them realized that they should hit the "off" switch.

According to Dr. McGill, this convinced him that the primary extensors of the lower back was the latissimus dorsi muscles. The spinal erectors play a much smaller role (I think it was stabilization?).

Anyway, if you want to confirm it for yourself, you can:

-Go find and read his books, Low Back Disorders: Evidence-Based Prevention and Rehabilitation OR Ultimate Back Fitness and Performance

-You can drop him a line. Maybe you'd like to argue with him.

His email and phone number are above. For those of you who can't seem to string together a proper sentence (I notice there were a few), get your parent or guardian to write the letter for you to save you the embarassment.

 

[manuva]

Re: Cut out the disrespect.

Originally posted by Sweetcheeks
There are a few guys on this forum who seem to me to be very knowledgeable on the subject of strength training. They know much more than I do, and I am willing to defer to them.

I'd like to say that for those who have respectfully contributed to this site, thank you. Whether I agree with your opinions or not, I appreciate the positive spirit in which your advice has been offered.

Please don't stop posting because of a few abusive children.

I'm not an expert and I don't claim to be, but I HAVE been strength training for 15 years (since I was 14 years old) and do a lot of reading on the subject. I also have a Kinesiology degree from a well-respected University in Canada (look it up if you kids don't know the word K-I-N-E-S-I-O-L-O-G-Y).

I'm sure more than a few people have much more impressive legitimate qualifications.

I don't understand how some of the 18-20 year olds who:

-may have been lifting (likely IMPROPERLY) for maybe 1-2 years (if that)
-learned most of what they know from commercial bodybuilding magazine articles written by juice monkeys
-do 1/4 reps and brag about the weights they lift
-strut around with their chests puffed out (called FALSE LAT SYNDROME)

feel like they have the right to DISRESPECT people who have PAID THEIR DUES and are taking their valuable time to help others out.

Some of these guys are PUNKS.

I'm here to learn, and I take issue with those who are here to pound their chests and put others down. No one here claims to be GOD, and for all we know, all this info could be obsolete next year.

With attitudes like this, maybe it's no wonder why some guys have trouble with women.

Post of the year. Applies to all forums. Should be stickied atop all forums.

 

[naoi deag se deag]

Sweetcheeks:

Sh!t man, I didn't even care about this thread till you posted. I've never seen a more airtight post here.

 

[MetalFortress]

Hmm. Interesting. I'll have to try the more lat-oriented deadlift next time I lift.

 

[manuva]

Originally posted by manuva:

The general content of Sweetcheeks post was a little off in places, but his advice was sound.

I stand corrected. With the evidence posted above, I admit I am wrong and Sweetcheeks was right - lats are primary muscles for back extension.

My apologies, and thanks for the lesson!

 

[Lifeforce]

Originally posted by manuva
I stand corrected. With the evidence posted above, I admit I am wrong and Sweetcheeks was right - lats are primary muscles for back extension.

My apologies, and thanks for the lesson!

I can't believe that people actually consider this to be true. Stand up people and stand still straight. Now put your hand on the erector spinae of your lower back, make sure you don't flex it. Now put your hand on the latissmus dorsi without flexing it. If it is under work it should be hard. If it is soft then it isn't under alot of stress.

Now try and bend a little forward and keeping the back straight. If you feel the erectors on your lower back they are probably hard as steel. Now relax and let your arm hang and feel the lats with the other hand. It isn't that hard is it?


If the latissmus dorsi would be the primary extensor of the (lower) back it would:

* be under constant pressure and be flexed all of the time. Which it obviously isn't to any greater degree.

* It would be more developed for people who doesn't train because of the importance of mid body erection. Lats are almost non existant for some people. Like me when I started for example.

* Deadlifts wouldn't hit the erectors of the lower back so hard. EVERYONE who deadlifts would experience improvement in lats since it is suppossed to erect the back.

* It wouldn't be attached to the rib cage, it would be attached to the vertabrea like the erectors are. If you were evolution, would you put erectors to a biskeletal part like the ribs when you want to erect the most important and vurnerable part of the human system or would you attach it directly to the surrounding skeletal system for increased safety?

* The fibers of the lats is going on the wrong direction to give erection to the spine. It can only pull sideways if you are standing up.

Edit, sorry i forgot.

* The latissmus muscle is attached to the shoulder. A muscle attached to the rib cage and the shoulder isn't ATTACHED to places it could give spinal erection. It HAS to be attached to a place at the base of the spine like the hip. A muscle only attached like the lat cannot give (lower back) erection because it can't work without the spine being erected in other ways. Now look at the spinal erectors, one of them is attached to the sacrum in the hip. And they all attached along the vertabreas of the back all the way up to the neck where they insert into the skull.

With those points I call bull**** on the article.

 

[RaWBLooD]

Re: My claim the latissimus dorsi muscles are the prime extensors of the lower back

If you dont feel your lats after a workout centered around deadlifts, you are doing something very wrong.