Let's talk about trust

[backbreaker]

this is something that has been getting under my skin a little reading threads all over this forum. It's something we don't talk about often. Frankly if you are anything like I was growing up, you were taught to trust unconditionally, and if you are also like I was, you got burned unconditionally as well lol.

However the wrong response to that is to clam up and to just not trust women.

Look, if you are going to have any type of relationship that's going to be fufilling whatsoever for both parties, there is going to have to be trust.



What I have found, in my experience dealing with women, is that you have to trust women to be who they are. Meaning, you have to first, FIGURE OUT WHO A WOMAN IS AND WHO SHE ISN'T, then trust her to be that.

This may be different for some people. When I dated amber, amber was the type of girl that went out with her older sister every Thursday night. she did it well before i met her, she did it when I met her and courted her, she did it when we were dating. Her getting dressed and going out on a thursday night, raised zero red flags to me beucase that's who amber was, the girl who got dressed and went out with her sister and came home about 12:30-1am. I had been out enough with her enough to generally know what was going to happen. few drinks, few guys try to dance iwth her, get a little tispy, comes home. rinse, wash, repeat.

what would raise a red flag with amber, would not be her going out, it would be coming home at 2am-3am in the morning. she was home before 1am like clockwork.

But at the same time, Amber was not really one to keep in contact with Ex's. she burned bridges. when she broke up witha guy she was done. so for AMBER to come to me and say she was talking to an ex, me knowing amber, that to me would be a red flag. Becuase I know ambre and that's not normal amber behavior.

On the other hand, take me. I go out often by mjyself, usually one night a week, just to get out the house. jazz bar, piano bar, sports bar. just to get a drink or two and unwind. I have done this all the time and I won't stop doing it. But I also pretty much an early bird, I will be home about 11pm-11:30pm ish give or take. My wife ha sno problem with this beucase this is being me. You have to keep in mind/prespetive, I work from home. So I don't get out like normal people do. sometimes i just got to get out the house.

she has a problem, l when I don't come home before midnight. which, is understandable. she knows who i am and gets upset when i divate from my
normal patterns of who I am.

she also knows I keep in contact with people, and has no real issue about me sending emails to my ex's or us going out ot eat with them when we are in little rock. I am a keep in touch type of guy. I like to know who is doing what or who is doing who,k who is pregnant, etc, send pictures of my son and ****. so she doesn't get up in arms when I do things like this. I did it before i met her, i did it when we dated and I do it now. she trust me to be me.

But when I do go out ot eat with old friends, out of respect I bring her along with me. what I don't do, and what would raise a red flag is if I didn't bring her along with me and went to go see an ex by myself. hell would break lose then lol.

I say all that to say, that the one, key, ingredient that everyone seems to just jump past when it comes to dating someone is that YOU HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHO SOMEONE IS, BEFORE YOU CAN TRUST THEM TO BE WHO THEY ARE.

Do you have the type of girl that is a busy body and is never at home? do you have the type of girlt hat will send FB messengers to ex's to show pictures and **** and think it's totally harmless. Do you have the girl that will go out with her GF's all the time.

I talk about, plate spinning and making a woman show you she is worth it alot. But while I am doing that, at the same time, just as imporantly I am developing a blue print for behavior so that if we do date, I know what you do and do not do. I am learning who you are and who you are not. If my wife started going out 2-3 nights a week alarms would be going off because for the most part she's a hermit. she will go out but no more than a few times a month and even then only to like a sports bar. she wont dream of going to a club without me there. so if she says "yeah me and the girls are going to a dance club" and gets all dolled up with fvck me pumps on, yeah we are going to have an issue.

whereas, i wouldn't probably look twice if amber did that, because that's what amber does every week.


The other side of not spinning plates and not setting the right frame of a relationship is jumping head first into a relationship, and then, every little thing that she does that you think might or might not be an issue, is a "red flag". no relationship will NEVER last like that. Ever. she will get tired of it and rightly so.

"For a relationship to be mutually benefiting there has to be a degree of trust. I trust when my wife goes out to the bar for girls night out she isn't going to be taking it in the bum by some dude at the bar lol. i trust when she goes to see her brother in Arizona every other4 moth or so she isn't having orgies in the local motel 6. she trust that when I go out to watch sporting events or just to get out i'm not making on every girl in the club. and I'm not. she trust that i am not having gangbang sessions at my house when she's out of town.

I could not be with a woman, let alone marry one that is going to give me the third degree everytime i step out the house when it's dark out, or I want to go home to see my sister for a few days and she is too busy to come with me but at the same time gives me the"are you cheating on me look" screw that, sex isn't that serious to where i am going to put up with tha type of woman just to get laid. i'm just not.

I remember this one plate i was seeing before i met my wife, had a pretty ****ty day and I just wanted to blow some steem off so I went ot the gym at about 10pm. I do this often, or often enough. this **** wouldn't shut up about this **** for a good week. "I Know you are fvckings someone else who else goes out at 10pm to the "gym". I said "well I do, and you would know that if you STFU and paid any attention to how I act on a normal basis." And yes while I was fvcking other women at the time, i wasn't that particarl nigght. I just wanted to go to the gym. I can get out of bed at midnight and tell the wife i'mm going to get up and head to the gym and she wouldn't even roll over , i do it when i can't sleep which is often enough. It puts me to sleep faster than antyhing else i can do.



So to wrap this up


1. SCREEN YOUR GOD DAMN WOMEN
2. upon screening, ask yourself is this behavior acceptable to you or is it not acceptable.

somethings you will be okay with and it varies. I for instance, have no real issue with women going out to clubs. It just doesn't bother me. But that's ME. there is no universal law that says "thou shalt not have an issue with women clubbing" or some ****. if YOU DON'T like women who are clubbing all the time, then why are you getting in a LTR with a woman that club s all the time? makes no damn sense.

I on the other hand, do not like smokers. I hate cig smoke. I will not consider a woman who smokes. i m' not going to ask you to change, im' not going to hope it gets better, I'm just not going to date you.

If acceptable proceed to point 3, if not acceptable proceed to point 4.
3. When you two decide to not fvck other people and to only fvck each other, hold her accountable to the tried and true behaviors that she has exhibited when you were dating. No more no less. You might not like everything she does but if it makes her happy she will make you happy in the long run. life shouldn't just stop because you are in a LTR.
4. Get the FVCK out. do not convince, do not negotiate, do not rationalize, just leave. if she does something that just is not acceptable to you while you are in the screening process, leave, or at least,l do not consider her for LTR


it's that simple. will solve 90% of your BS issues you are having lol.


let me add for a few of you that still have some white knight in you and will say "but backbreaker.. what if she goes out and CHEATS on you"


1. fvck her then. **** just wasn't meant to be. not going to sit at home and spend my entire life worrying about what a woman will or will not do. At some point you have to trust your screening abilities.

2. it actually creates the opposite effect. some of the best sex amber and i would have is on thursday nights when she would come home and i seriously not give a **** that she just went out and had dudes looking at her. it displays confidence and women like confidence. i used to look forward to Thursday nights actually. a woman likes to know that her man trust her and that her man has a life outside of wondering what she is doing all the time.

3. I truly know that if she screws up, she can and will be replaced, she knows that too. I don't mind you having a life as long as you are being a good little girl. the second i get a whif that you aren't all that **** and I along with it am out the door. if your hook is in a girl deep enough, she will be on her best behavior regardless of her surroundings.

 

[st_99]

I think most girls will tell you all you need to know within the first 2 months of dating IF you have your eyes and ears open and do not stick your head in the sand because she is oh so cute and you don't feel like looking for another girl.

Most proplems arise because you are blind with infatuation and lust and sh*t like that in the begininng even if your girl is screaming 'i am a no good broken ho' you refuse to listen. Then you wonder why you keep getting your heart stomped on all the time. Its your fault 9 out of 10 times.

 

[backbreaker]

I think most girls will tell you all you need to know within the first 2 months of dating IF you have your eyes and ears open and do not stick your head in the sand because she is oh so cute and you don't feel like looking for another girl.

Most proplems arise because you are blind with infatuation and lust and sh*t like that in the begininng even if your girl is screaming 'i am a no good broken ho' you refuse to listen. Then you wonder why you keep getting your heart stomped on all the time. Its your fault 9 out of 10 times.

you and me think a lot alike on alot of issues.

Just like with bad clients, 9 out of 10 times, when I have a bad client, the signs were right there before we started the project, I just didn't, for whatever the reason, pay attention. the client just didn't go bad. lol i had a client a few months ago tell me that he had been outsourcing a job to someone and the job has taken "almost a year". becuase of the size of the job I paid no real attention to this, i wanted this particular job. lo and behold, we get the job, and we are a month into the damn job and the guy fvcking refuses to follow simple ass directions. we are still trying to the design of the job because he can't show people what he likes and doesn't like. he sends wifeframes of jobs and when you copy them, he ask you why the site looks like the wifefame, "that was not the point of the wireframe i just wanted to show you an example I didn't want you to make it look like this". the guy has no fvcking clue what he wants.

I could get mad at him, but it's my fault. i was blinded by my want for this project. now i'm stuck with it.

a girl will tell you what you can trust her to do and not trust her to do very early in a relationship with them. you get a feel for when someone is lying, when they are not.

another reason plate spinning is so important, it dulls the lulz in the beginning of a relationship so you can focus instead of thinking of wedding bells and ****. she is telling you very important stuff you just need to listen.

 

[Victory Unlimited]

Usually TRUST is a gift you give to someone based on proven evidence of consistent good behavior in categories that YOU deem as important to you.

Trust is like money that you put in a bank.

It's ill-advised to put your money in a bank that's shown you that they don't have any qualms about overcharging you, stealing from you, or giving YOUR money to other people without your written consent.

So likewise, your heart, your time, your emotions, and everything else that you have of value should only be invested incrementally based on how well that woman has received you-----------and how well she's generated a good return on your multiple, romantic investments.

 

[Viagra4Soul]

I think most girls will tell you all you need to know within the first 2 months of dating IF you have your eyes and ears open and do not stick your head in the sand because she is oh so cute and you don't feel like looking for another girl.

^^^ this

she is telling you very important stuff you just need to listen.

and most definitely, this ^^^

I would say, especially with loud-mouthed Sagittarians, you'll only need to wait a few weeks.

 

[SecondHalf]

Good thread and some great points.
Nobody has mentioned triggers though.

Getting to know a woman and her habits and reactions is important.
One of the challenges a divorce survivor or someone who's allowed themselves to be burn is factor in triggers.

As a child you put your hand on a stove element and burn yourself. It was a lesson. For the rest of your life you're going to be nervous about stove elements. It takes a lot of time to trust that stove element not being hot when the switch is turned off.
I've been burnt and it sure does take some time and rational thought to get to trust someone wrt these old trigger points.

I always notice when a pattern changes and it does cause me concern.
What I struggle with now is when the pattern changes and it is even remotely related to one of these past triggers. I admit it's my baggage, but without plates, it's a tough one to deal with.

SH

 

[zekko]

However, there is a saying out there that says the woman you divorce is not the woman you married. The point being, that people change.

You can be the best screener in the world, but it does not change that you are in an every changing environment.

Great point. Marriage is a risk these days, there's no way around it.
People change, their goals and priorities change. There would be no growth otherwise, they would be stagnant.

And these days people live longer, that gives them more time to morph.
Divorce does not carry a stigma these days, people (women especially) are less likely to fight the idea. A woman can even gain financially by divorcing, it can be like winning the lottery for them. Check out Kobe Bryant's wife.
People can develop an illness, there's menopause, women's hormones can go wacky.

I trust my girlfriend, but I will never FULLY trust a woman. There can always come a time when she gets bored, someone catches her eye, you never know. The excitement of a new relationship is a powerful enticement. I don't believe she would fool around on me today. Five years from now? Who can say?

 

[PokerStar]

BB this is an epic post. well at least to me bro. thank you very much.

 

[backbreaker]

Trust is absolutely important. And in order to trust your woman, you must screen her properly.

I don't think anybody can argue with these two points.

However, there is a saying out there that says the woman you divorce is not the woman you married. The point being, that people change.

You can be the best screener in the world, but it does not change that you are in an ever changing environment. With that environment, you need the ability to adapt and to read situations and your woman. Sometimes that situation will include her wanting to "hang out with an old ex", or go out with everyone after work, have a girls night out, etc,...

Now, many of these should just roll off your back, but some specific cases require more scrutiny. It would be incredibly naive to screen your woman and then say that you can trust her to do what she wishes. I cannot count how many ex's have come back to me looking to hook-up on the sly from their man. Even to the point where they would purposefully disarm their man by having us all hang out together.

Trust, but verify. Just as you should always be improving yourself, you must also always stay vigilant.

but at the same time, are you being the same man that SHE married. it works both ways

if you screened you woman right and you haven't gone AFC or lazy or broke on her, she isn't going to start developing habits and traits that she didn't have in the first place.


the problem with people like you and zarky is that you take 0 responsibility in the relationship. Quite frankly that attitude in itself is an unattractive attitude to have. you do not understand, comprehend that women don't just leave, they are driven out. You might not have cheated on her but she has lost her attraction for whatever the reason and that's your fault.

it's your goal, duty, whatever to stay the woman's best, most viable option as long as you are in a relationship.

 

[Buddha_Mind]

Backbreaker,

This was a really good thread, and I completely agree.

Part of my problem has been *seeing patterns and behaviors that are beyond my level of acceptance but accepting it anyways*, I don't know if we men justify the behavior due to lack of options or lack of confidence or what. But you are 100% right -- if she does things that really cause friction in you, than she isn't the right type of girl, and why waste time?

How often do people try and change someone else? They meet someone they are sexually attracted to, but this person does things they don't like -- and they try to change it. Just doesn't work that way. You have to find someone who you just like as who they are -- whose patterns or decisions agree with the values you have for yourself.

I would say this is 80-90% of the reasons people have problems, simply because they are unwilling to see or say, "I don't tolerate this behavior" and get stuck with the wrong person.

I want to find a woman who fits me like a glove. Whose strengths and weaknesses complement my own. This won't be from some partying crazy hoe.

 

[Buddha_Mind]

it's your goal, duty, whatever to stay the woman's best, most viable option as long as you are in a relationship.

yes man, yes.
this is not easy.
good relationships are not for the weak.
nor those who cannot be self-motivated.

 

[backbreaker]

Backbreaker,

This was a really good thread, and I completely agree.

Part of my problem has been *seeing patterns and behaviors that are beyond my level of acceptance but accepting it anyways*, I don't know if we men justify the behavior due to lack of options or lack of confidence or what. But you are 100% right -- if she does things that really cause friction in you, than she isn't the right type of girl, and why waste time?

How often do people try and change someone else? They meet someone they are sexually attracted to, but this person does things they don't like -- and they try to change it. Just doesn't work that way. You have to find someone who you just like as who they are -- whose patterns or decisions agree with the values you have for yourself.

I would say this is 80-90% of the reasons people have problems, simply because they are unwilling to see or say, "I don't tolerate this behavior" and get stuck with the wrong person.

I want to find a woman who fits me like a glove. Whose strengths and weaknesses complement my own. This won't be from some partying crazy hoe.

just remember though,, that there is nothing wrong with "crazy party hoe" lol, she just isn't for you. there is nothing wrong with spinning her as a plate until something better comes along. you are not morally better than she is, you just have different priorities. do not look down on her just because you have different priorities in life. \

 

[thirdtimescharm]

Backbreaker,

This was a really good thread, and I completely agree.

Part of my problem has been *seeing patterns and behaviors that are beyond my level of acceptance but accepting it anyways*, I don't know if we men justify the behavior due to lack of options or lack of confidence or what. But you are 100% right -- if she does things that really cause friction in you, than she isn't the right type of girl, and why waste time?

How often do people try and change someone else? They meet someone they are sexually attracted to, but this person does things they don't like -- and they try to change it. Just doesn't work that way. You have to find someone who you just like as who they are -- whose patterns or decisions agree with the values you have for yourself.

I would say this is 80-90% of the reasons people have problems, simply because they are unwilling to see or say, "I don't tolerate this behavior" and get stuck with the wrong person.

I want to find a woman who fits me like a glove. Whose strengths and weaknesses complement my own. This won't be from some partying crazy hoe.

Fabulous thread, and excellent points. I've been married twice and what have I learned? Well, not to think about getting married of course, but I still like women for many reasons. And what I look for now is finding a balance. Attitudes on work, religion, and money for example, need to be in some kind of alignment. Communicate! Of course you want to have differences, things you can share with each other, learn new tricks, and have things that give you private time too. Some women knit, for crying out loud. Let em'! But finding balance in the big stuff will go a long way in dealing with the small stuff.

 

[Buddha_Mind]

just remember though,, that there is nothing wrong with "crazy party hoe" lol, she just isn't for you. there is nothing wrong with spinning her as a plate until something better comes along. you are not morally better than she is, you just have different priorities. do not look down on her just because you have different priorities in life. \

Well, I don't want to sound like a douche-bag here, but what if you are morally better than another person? For example, someone when they are angry murders someone, perhaps you have never done this--perhaps you have stronger moral ground.

Now at a metaphysical level, does the universe care about murder and right and wrong -- probably not -- it is a human sense of value and right and wrong is subjective.

But I'm not a male-hoe. What's wrong with not wanting a female-hoe? I'd like to be with someone who has similar boundaries for respect. For me, I have walked away from sex many times because that hasn't been priority #1. I can't be the only man this way, and there must be women this way.

This forum sometimes gets a bit extreme in the colors we paint...for example this notion of all women being entirely hypergamous -- no matter how much you've achieved, how strong and fast your career is rolling, how of great shape, there is always going to be someone better -- better looking, better accomplished, more money...if all women were strictly hypergamous, that little old lady woulda left her husband years ago when his back went out. She'd have found a better man.

Or my mother would have left my dad for some dude with a yacht. (she didn't and is incredibly loyal to him despite his human faults).

I don't know...maybe I am better than some of these floozies..in fact backbreaker me not realizing that may be a primary reason why I've spent a lot of time with the wrong type of women....

But maybe a slvt is good for a ride. That's about it.

 

[zekko]

the problem with people like you and zarky is that you take 0 responsibility in the relationship. Quite frankly that attitude in itself is an unattractive attitude to have. you do not understand, comprehend that women don't just leave, they are driven out. You might not have cheated on her but she has lost her attraction for whatever the reason and that's your fault.

First off, it's zekko, not Zarky. Zarky's another (slightly sleazier) fellow.
I'm not even going to answer the bit about my taking zero responsibility in my relationship because that is just ridiculous. Nothing I wrote even remotely suggested that.

But you seriously believe women do not just leave, they are driven out? That's saying every divorce in the country is the man's fault. I guess there's no reason to complain about unfair court practices anymore, since the guy is just getting what's coming to him. You overstepped it there, BB. You're only 28, you've got a long time to be married. I hope you never find out different.

Also, what Danger said.

 

[Findog]

But you seriously believe women do not just leave, they are driven out?

I heartily agree with your sentiment here zekko. Some women can and do end relationships for frivolous reasons. Hypergamy in some, but not all, instances IS ending a relationship for frivolous reasons.

Most guys get dumped because they are either ultra AFC or on the other end of the spectrum they are completely unresponsive to their woman's needs (couch potato playing video games instead of making an effort to continue to do novel and exciting things together). But some men are the victims of Eat, Betray, Love. It is naive in the extreme to assume that the demise of a relationship is always because the guy was too AFC.

 

[betheman]

First off, it's zekko, not Zarky. Zarky's another (slightly sleazier) fellow.
I'm not even going to answer the bit about my taking zero responsibility in my relationship because that is just ridiculous. Nothing I wrote even remotely suggested that.

But you seriously believe women do not just leave, they are driven out? That's saying every divorce in the country is the man's fault. I guess there's no reason to complain about unfair court practices anymore, since the guy is just getting what's coming to him. You overstepped it there, BB. You're only 28, you've got a long time to be married. I hope you never find out different.

Also, what Danger said.

I agree with this, Im quite tired of the notion that guys have to have 1005 tight game, 100% of the time, and if she ups and leaves its still the guys fault. quite frankly thats laughable.
yes the screening is very important, but even thenm women are fickle are they not? who knows what will take their fancy at any given time?
Ive seen and experienced some very shady behaviour from women, sorry but to say this is virtually always the guys fault is nonesense!

 

[typical]

No in our modern world all women ARE hypergamous, society today has constantly drilled into women that they are allowed to do whatever they want and we men have to put up with it or deal with it.

Your examples of why a women did not leave her husband fiance bf is simply because at that stage in her life she was "scared" that if she leaves him she won't be able to find another person as good as him OR someone that is willing to settle down with her.

Remember all women want to settle down and have kids it is their ultimate fantasy / goal, after they achieve this goal they can change in many many ways. Some may marry the sweet nerd they met while still banging a stud she met after her marriage but won't leave the nerd because he provides her a good standard of living.

I agree with the screening aspect of any dating/relationship, this screening process should be done before during and after any dating/relationship with any woman.

But TRUST is something (well for me anyways), is something that is earned and once broken it can not be regained. Trust is also something that I don't give to everyone at my 100%, I will trust them but only for what i know about them and what they have shown me, nothing more nothing less.

Further more I can bet my bottom dollar that women as a general group are not trustworthy, nor for that fact are most men BUT I trust my fellow men more then I trust me fellow women. Why ? Because men have a inate ability to show Honour, Pride, Sacrifice, Respect under the most horrendious of situations, I have not seen those levels in many women.

To test this Trust issue you have to be at both ends of the spectrum, become that all conquering man you dream of and see how all women respond to you then become that guy that looses a few of those traits and see how the same women respond to you.

I'll tell you now that only a very few women will stick by your side through everything.

In the end you can only trust in yourself not anyone else, because when the sh!t hits the fan they will all bail on you, you can argue all you want that they won't BUT everyone thats alive today is in it for themselves and not for others. They all want the best and will not put up with second best. Its just a part of nature take it or leave it.

 

[backbreaker]

I agree with this, Im quite tired of the notion that guys have to have 1005 tight game, 100% of the time, and if she ups and leaves its still the guys fault. quite frankly thats laughable.
yes the screening is very important, but even thenm women are fickle are they not? who knows what will take their fancy at any given time?
Ive seen and experienced some very shady behaviour from women, sorry but to say this is virtually always the guys fault is nonesense!

you and the Z guy are working off the (wrong) assumption that life is fair lol. it's not.

Yes, in today's dating game, men are held to a much, much higher standard. that's just the reality of life in 2012. Once you settle down and you aren't getting any from anyone else and it's just one on one, the second you aren't her best option or you don't do it for her anymore, there are 5-6 chumps in her orbit that will try to.

women are natural branch swingers and swing easier and becuase they can jump in and out of relationships faster than the avg man can, they have a lower sense of morale than men do.

But you seriously believe women do not just leave, they are driven out? That's saying every divorce in the country is the man's fault. I guess there's no reason to complain about unfair court practices anymore, since the guy is just getting what's coming to him. You overstepped it there, BB. You're only 28, you've got a long time to be married. I hope you never find out different.

Just because it were to happen to me would not make me reevaluate my stance or point of view. if my wife left tomorrow it would be because i was not her best option. just because it's dealing with me doesn't mean it's not true anymore. I'm not above the game.

 

[backbreaker]

To flesh it out, it would be because she PERCEIVED you to not be her best option. You know how some immature women are, choosing gangbangers over educated guys that have integrity or just chasing money or looks superficially.

best option is subjective. for instance, my wife is not just my best option becuase she is attractive. she fits me we like the same things. it would take more than just a "hot woman" to get me to ever leave my wife.


a woman is never wrong in her judgement on what she thinks is her best option for her at that time. if she wants to party she is going to pick the person that allows her to do the best partying. if she wants to play house she is going to pick the best housemate, etc