K-Close on first dates but no second dates.

[holidayad_]

So up till now I still can't get second dates, good thing is I'm kiss closing these girls and still pushing for sex. The previous one gVe me a BJ but then proceeded to tell me 'She doesn't do hookups' while the most recent one went ghost after I made out with her (she said no when I tried escalating further).

Am I coming across too much off as a player? What can I do?

Living the same situation right now, dude.

Were you able to break the barrier of first dates only and escalate to a second date?

 

[BackInTheGame78]

So up till now I still can't get second dates, good thing is I'm kiss closing these girls and still pushing for sex. The previous one gVe me a BJ but then proceeded to tell me 'She doesn't do hookups' while the most recent one went ghost after I made out with her (she said no when I tried escalating further).

Am I coming across too much off as a player? What can I do?

You are likely coming off too strong and as this continues to keep happening, your sense of trying to make something happen NOW makes you seem desperate and they can sense it. Pushing for sex is fine...pushing to the point it makes you seem like you can't get laid and that you have to get it tonight makes you seem desperate. If date after date they keep asking you "Do you always come on this strong" it should be obvious that you need to back off some.

Try just going out having fun and relaxing a little and not caring about the outcome or pushing so hard.

You are making critical mistakes most likely that you aren't aware of due to this lack of success turning into more and more pressure to make something happen on each successive first date to break the streak.

 

[SargeMaximus]

If you are going to kiss on the first date you HAVE to have sex with her. If you don’t, her ASD will kick in and she will have buyers remorse

 

[BillyPilgrim]

Leave the girl wanting more if you're not going to have sex on the 1st date. Always err on the side of "leaving her wanting more" and give her a cushion to account for buyer's remorse. Don't push things to the limit, or even close to the limit.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

If you are going to kiss on the first date you HAVE to have sex with her. If you don’t, her ASD will kick in and she will have buyers remorse

I've never found this to be true. All this shows is you are way too thirsty if you need to force the issue that badly.

 

[SargeMaximus]

I've never found this to be true. All this shows is you are way too thirsty if you need to force the issue that badly.

I’m not talking about forcing anything. I’m simply saying if you Kiss but don’t have sex, ime, she gets ASD. SO it’s best to forego kissing on a first Date. Or just fvck as soon as you meet them like I do

 

[BackInTheGame78]

I’m not talking about forcing anything. I’m simply saying if you Kiss but don’t have sex, ime, she gets ASD. SO it’s best to forego kissing on a first Date. Or just fvck as soon as you meet them like I do

I've kissed on many first dates, not had sex and had the women excited to see me again and then had sex on dates 2, 3 or 4. Probably like 85% of the women I have fvcked I kissed on the first date.

I rarely have first date sex, probably maybe 5 or 6 times on actual first dates(not including club/bar pickups)

If a woman isn't seeing you again it isn't because you kissed her on the first date. Unless she thought the kiss was terrible and then that could be a reason.

 

[SW15]

2000s era attraction-seduction materials used to hype the first date kiss as an indicator of attraction and a good sign that a man would get a 2nd date. I perceive that was true in the 1990s-2000s.

In more recent times, I've heard arguments against the first date kiss, some of which are being expressed on this thread right now.

There's an idea that the threshold has been moved from a first date kiss to first date sex. I don't buy that idea either. Some think first date sex is a good anti-flaking mechanism as there's never any guarantee you'll ever see the woman again. The idea is that women have a lot of options and that first date sex gets them invested and more likely to respond to phone call or text message among the many options she has because of modern female abundance. The problem with that idea is that it can be very difficult to have amazing and memorable first date sex. Disappointing first date sex is worse than no first date sex at all.

In a lot of cases, trying to push for first date sex has a lot of downsides. Some of the decision on whether to push for first date sex or same night sex from a bar approach would depend on a man's goals in the mating environment. If a man is trying for an extended relationship of some kind, not having first date sex is likely a good idea. Kiss closing for those men is probably good.

If a man wants to have more casual sex arrangements, including same night sex or first date sex, pushing for sex on the first date is a good idea.

I still think the first date kiss holds value though I think there's a case that it might not hold the same value it once did.

 

[holidayad_]

In a lot of cases, trying to push for first date sex has a lot of downsides.

You think that trying to close the deal on the first night may sound like a red flag to the girl may directly influence her decision to have a second date?

 

[SargeMaximus]

I've kissed on many first dates, not had sex and had the women excited to see me again and then had sex on dates 2, 3 or 4. Probably like 85% of the women I have fvcked I kissed on the first date.

I rarely have first date sex, probably maybe 5 or 6 times on actual first dates(not including club/bar pickups)

If a woman isn't seeing you again it isn't because you kissed her on the first date. Unless she thought the kiss was terrible and then that could be a reason.

Fair enough, it obviously works that way for you but o another pua forum I was on way back in the day they drilled the idea that first date kiss with no sex leads to ASD and that’s definitely been my experience

2000s era attraction-seduction materials used to hype the first date kiss as an indicator of attraction and a good sign that a man would get a 2nd date. I perceive that was true in the 1990s-2000s.

In more recent times, I've heard arguments against the first date kiss, some of which are being expressed on this thread right now.

There's an idea that the threshold has been moved from a first date kiss to first date sex. I don't buy that idea either. Some think first date sex is a good anti-flaking mechanism as there's never any guarantee you'll ever see the woman again. The idea is that women have a lot of options and that first date sex gets them invested and more likely to respond to phone call or text message among the many options she has because of modern female abundance. The problem with that idea is that it can be very difficult to have amazing and memorable first date sex. Disappointing first date sex is worse than no first date sex at all.

In a lot of cases, trying to push for first date sex has a lot of downsides. Some of the decision on whether to push for first date sex or same night sex from a bar approach would depend on a man's goals in the mating environment. If a man is trying for an extended relationship of some kind, not having first date sex is likely a good idea. Kiss closing for those men is probably good.

If a man wants to have more casual sex arrangements, including same night sex or first date sex, pushing for sex on the first date is a good idea.

I still think the first date kiss holds value though I think there's a case that it might not hold the same value it once did.

Again I don’t like the frame that sex on a first date is somehow “pushing” it. It definitely isn’t in my cases. Believe it or not women I sleep with want to do so

 

[SW15]

first date kiss with no sex leads to ASD and that’s definitely been my experience

My experience has been that no first date kiss = no spark and no incentive to show up for a 2nd date.

You think that trying to close the deal on the first night may sound like a red flag to the girl may directly influence her decision to have a second date?

I don't think so. If the woman felt attraction but didn't have sex on the first date, she'll show up for a 2nd date. Most women are good enough at prevention escalation to sex. Most men are going to respect boundaries if she doesn't want to have sex on a first date. There is no punishment for trying to escalate to sex on the first date.

Without kissing on a first date, there's not much of an incentive for a woman to have a 2nd date. Women operate on "all the feelz" so they'll not do a 2nd date without the "feelz" of a kiss.

If there was a bad first kiss, then there wouldn't be a 2nd date. Bad kissing technique is a problem.

 

[SargeMaximus]

My experience has been that no first date kiss = no spark and no incentive to show up for a 2nd date.



I don't think so. If the woman felt attraction but didn't have sex on the first date, she'll show up for a 2nd date. Most women are good enough at prevention escalation to sex. Most men are going to respect boundaries if she doesn't want to have sex on a first date. There is no punishment for trying to escalate to sex on the first date.

Without kissing on a first date, there's not much of an incentive for a woman to have a 2nd date. Women operate on "all the feelz" so they'll not do a 2nd date without the "feelz" of a kiss.

If there was a bad first kiss, then there wouldn't be a 2nd date. Bad kissing technique is a problem.

that sounds like theory tbh. Hasn’t been my experience at all

 

[holidayad_]

My experience has been that no first date kiss = no spark and no incentive to show up for a 2nd date.



I don't think so. If the woman felt attraction but didn't have sex on the first date, she'll show up for a 2nd date. Most women are good enough at prevention escalation to sex. Most men are going to respect boundaries if she doesn't want to have sex on a first date. There is no punishment for trying to escalate to sex on the first date.

Without kissing on a first date, there's not much of an incentive for a woman to have a 2nd date. Women operate on "all the feelz" so they'll not do a 2nd date without the "feelz" of a kiss.

If there was a bad first kiss, then there wouldn't be a 2nd date. Bad kissing technique is a problem.

Thanks for the inputs. Normally, I always try to close the deal on the first night. For a while, it worked out and I was able to get the girl for months. For now, I'm having a hard time getting past the first date barrier.

I'm going to change my strategy of trying to escalate - if I don't get clear signs, obviously - and stick to just kissing. Analyze if I can see any difference.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Fair enough, it obviously works that way for you but o another pua forum I was on way back in the day they drilled the idea that first date kiss with no sex leads to ASD and that’s definitely been my experience


Again I don’t like the frame that sex on a first date is somehow “pushing” it. It definitely isn’t in my cases. Believe it or not women I sleep with want to do so

IMO, when you put so much into all or nothing, you will end up with nothing most times.

These women know what you want and being overly aggressive on the first date tells them you aren't interested in actually getting to know them and that is a major turnoff.

This is not the norm to have no second dates just because you didn't fvck her, that's a gaping hole in your dating approaches, IMO.

 

[SargeMaximus]

IMO, when you put so much into all or nothing, you will end up with nothing most times.

These women know what you want and being overly aggressive on the first date tells them you aren't interested in actually getting to know them and that is a major turnoff.

This is not the norm to have no second dates just because you didn't fvck her, that's a gaping hole in your dating approaches, IMO.

I’m not aggressive, quite the opposite actually

 

[BackInTheGame78]

I’m not aggressive, quite the opposite actually

How can you in one breath say you push for first date sex every time but in the second breath say you are the opposite of aggressive?

Those two are diametrically opposed.

 

[SargeMaximus]

How can you in one breath say you push for first date sex every time but in the second breath say you are the opposite of aggressive?

Those two are diametrically opposed.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes

 

[BillyPilgrim]

Thanks for the inputs. Normally, I always try to close the deal on the first night. For a while, it worked out and I was able to get the girl for months. For now, I'm having a hard time getting past the first date barrier.

I'm going to change my strategy of trying to escalate - if I don't get clear signs, obviously - and stick to just kissing. Analyze if I can see any difference.

Just be sure to make the kiss short and avoid the extended makeout session. Try to make it at least somewhat hot/passionate (i.e., don't be passive, you can be aggressive just don't overdo it) and be the first to pull away.